Aphids on my roses, time to wage war

[Dave -Turner[_1_]]

Today I noticed on my roses out the backyard that most of the bud sites are
covered in aphids. Now before i go on I should warn you that i put the "um"
in greenthumb and ive never tackled aphids before.

They all seem huddled up together in groups on the bud sites - i can't
really see any on the stems or anywhere else as such, so it seems like I
could get rid of most of them just by chopping off all the bud sites. I did
notice a few Ladybugs which is cool, but there's only a few of them and
perhaps thousands of aphids so the Ladybugs cant do it alone

So I want to kill the aphids but not the Ladybugs, anyone know any tricks?
other than breeding Ladybugs :P
Thanks

[ant[_4_]]

Dave -Turner wrote:
> Today I noticed on my roses out the backyard that most of the bud
> sites are covered in aphids. Now before i go on I should warn you
> that i put the "um" in greenthumb and ive never tackled aphids before.

My iceberg has had half-hearted buds and flowers all winter, and the buds
have been completely covered in aphids. fricking birds get their seeds right
over the roses, but they haven't et the aphids. I might cut back their seed
ration.

You can rub off the aphids, make up a bowl of soapy water. Won't kill the
ladybirds that way.

Or you can just nuke them with slayaphe.



--
ant
Don't try to email me;
I'm borrowing the spammer du jour's addy

[Dave -Turner[_1_]]

> My iceberg has had half-hearted buds and flowers all winter, and the buds
> have been completely covered in aphids. fricking birds get their seeds
> right over the roses, but they haven't et the aphids.
??? i didnt think birds ate aphids - arent they a bit too small for their
liking? i know Ladybirds love em tho

> You can rub off the aphids
That's how it seems at the moment because they're all clusterd together on
the bud sites - perhaps i can dunk each budsite in a bowl of water and shake
them off into the water to drown the little *******s

> make up a bowl of soapy water. Won't kill the ladybirds that way.
Why soapy? and should it be neutral temperature, or cold or luke-warm or hot
or ... ?

> Or you can just nuke them with slayaphe.
Never heard of it but i'll google it - I'd prefer a more biofriendly/natural
solution tho

[gardenlen]

too easy dave,

just spray the aphids of with a strong spray of water, then deal with
the ants the most likely cause of the aphids, also the lady bugs are
most likely eating the aphids so maybe sjut let a balance occur.

got some ideas on our remedies page for ghetting rid of ants.

On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 20:04:58 +0800, "Dave -Turner" >
wrote:

snipped
With peace and brightest of blessings,

len

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.gardenlen.com

[RooBoy]

Almost as bad as Lipstick on my Collar

"Dave -Turner" > wrote in message
...
> Today I noticed on my roses out the backyard that most of the bud sites
> are covered in aphids. Now before i go on I should warn you that i put the
> "um" in greenthumb and ive never tackled aphids before.
>
> They all seem huddled up together in groups on the bud sites - i can't
> really see any on the stems or anywhere else as such, so it seems like I
> could get rid of most of them just by chopping off all the bud sites. I
> did notice a few Ladybugs which is cool, but there's only a few of them
> and perhaps thousands of aphids so the Ladybugs cant do it alone
>
> So I want to kill the aphids but not the Ladybugs, anyone know any tricks?
> other than breeding Ladybugs :P
> Thanks
>
>

[Dave -Turner[_1_]]

> just spray the aphids of with a strong spray of water
wont they just return within a day or two?

> then deal with the ants the most likely cause of the aphids
ants?? where do they come into the equation, by repelling other aphid-eating
insects?

> also the lady bugs are most likely eating the
> aphids so maybe sjut let a balance occur.
the problem is there's no balance - thousands of aphids, only a few
ladybugs. i might capture the ladybugs then just blast the bushes with a
hose

> got some ideas on our remedies page for ghetting rid of ants.
interesting page thanks

[Farm1]

"Dave -Turner" > wrote in message

> ??? i didnt think birds ate aphids - arent they a bit too small for
their
> liking?

As far as I'm concerned the only way to deal with aphids is to have
Wrens in your garden. My Wrens spend a lot of time in spring
patrolling the roses and they eat all aphids. I never, ever spray and
they are so very interesting to watch.

> I'd prefer a more biofriendly/natural
> solution tho

Read up on how to encourage birds into your garden but till you give
up on chemicals they tend not to stay round.

This site might help:
http://canberrabirds.org.au/gardenbl.htm

[Farm1]

"gardenlen" > wrote in message

> just spray the aphids of with a strong spray of water, then deal
with
> the ants the most likely cause of the aphids,

Ants don't bring aphids Len. Aphids are sap suckers. I think you are
mixing up the ants that come to feed off the exudate from scale
insects.

[gardenlen]

sorry farm1,

you maybe a bit off the mark there, ants not only have a symbiotic
relationship with sacle insects but also with mealy bugs and aphids
pretty much any thript. and aphids do secrete a sugary substance that
the ants use in their food chain.

in my life of gardening i have observed ants harvesting aphids not
only on roses but on other plants as well.

the aphid is flightless and can't crawl over the ground so the only
way it gets around is by being carried.

used to be a good way to predict rain when rose growers observed the
ants taking the aphids back underground so they won't be knocked off
their perch by heavy rain.

anyhow that's the nature of things and this is the only time in my 10
years online i have ever heard it any different.

On Fri, 25 Aug 2006 17:29:40 +1000, "Farm1" <please@askifyouwannaknow>
wrote:

snipped
With peace and brightest of blessings,

len

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.gardenlen.com

[Dave -Turner[_1_]]

Len can you expand a bit more on the ants <> aphids relationship? thanks
There are ant nests around each of my rose bushes but I'd never thought
anything of it as I didnt think ants had anything to do with roses or
aphids, but the food chain is a complex one

[Jen]

"gardenlen" > wrote in message
...
> sorry farm1,

>
> in my life of gardening i have observed ants harvesting aphids not
> only on roses but on other plants as well.

Yeah. I remember reading a book about ants, that said ants farm aphids and
milk them.

Jen

[gardenlen]

g'day dave,

i'm no scientist here but that is how it is, yes you can have ants yet
not appear to have any of the problems they can bring, yes they too
are important in the organic aspect as they dispose of stuff and help
recycle it but they can bring the nasties, i don't see aphids as
particularly nastya s theya re so easy to get rid of once the ants
have been moved on.

and yes it can appear that there are no ants yet plants have aphids,
mealy bug, scale etc.,. but the ants are there or have been. all this
is just part of gardening lore.

same with potted plants tend to get mealy bug but only after the ants
have moved in.

ants don't pick plants because they are this or that they pick plants
suitable for whatever thrip they are harvesting.

the relationship is symbiotic and it isn't any discovery of mine, as i
said it is the nature of things, so mines not to reason why but to
learn the why and then get a fix if a plant is being affected.

also the reason why a lot of gardeners complain that it doesn't matter
what poison they use on these bugs they keep coming back, yep because
they haven't controlled the ants and when they do then the bug is gone
untill the ants come back maybe.

so if the ants are there they could have a herd of aphids tucked away
on the roots of the roses waiting for the right time to bring them
up??

the ants as i understand do not eat the aphid they only eat the sugary
substance that the aphids secrete.

and all those bugs are sap suckers not just aphids, mealy bugs and
scale live from sucking the sap or how would they live, just with
mealies and scale they might tend to secrete more sugary substance
than the ants can use so then the excess harbours sooty mould.

On Fri, 25 Aug 2006 17:52:52 +0800, in aus.gardens you wrote:

snipped
With peace and brightest of blessings,

len

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.gardenlen.com

[gardenlen]

that's correct jan,

that is why i can't understand the statement made by a previous
poster.

in 25 years of gardening i have listened a lot i've seen a lot of tv
shows and read a lot of text online in the past 10 years but have
never heard of ants not farming those thript type bugs.

On Fri, 25 Aug 2006 12:49:51 GMT, in aus.gardens you wrote:

>
>"gardenlen" > wrote in message
...
snipped
With peace and brightest of blessings,

len

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.gardenlen.com

[Dave -Turner[_1_]]

So if i destroy the ants nests at the bases of my roses bushes that would
have a significant effect on the aphid populations (by allowing other
predatory insects in that the ants wouldve otherwise kept away) ?

Thanks for your insights Len, its very much appreciated

[gardenlen]

that is how it has worked for me, aslo i don't think the aphids last
long without their farmers.

once the ants have gone simply hose off the aphids with a strong spray
of water if you use an atomiser bottle add a bit of detergent. moving
the ants on is the lynch pin but. i think one of the lady beetles eats
the very young aphids so guess if you don't have them then you may not
hae any predators.

On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 05:29:39 +0800, "Dave -Turner" >
wrote:

snipped
With peace and brightest of blessings,

len

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.gardenlen.com

[Dave -Turner[_1_]]

Cheers for your feedback Len, I never would've thought about ants in regards
to this matter of aphids on roses but in a way it makes sense and seems to
offer a weakpoint that can be exploited - im all for natural biowarfare

[Farm1]

"gardenlen" > wrote in message
> sorry farm1,
>
> you maybe a bit off the mark there, ants not only have a symbiotic
> relationship with sacle insects but also with mealy bugs and aphids
> pretty much any thript. and aphids do secrete a sugary substance
that
> the ants use in their food chain.

Well I can only say that I have never seen an ant near the aphids on
my roses. And my garden has multiple varieties of ants. Perhaps the
wrens clear the aphids before the ants have a chance to find the
aphids.

> the aphid is flightless and can't crawl over the ground so the only
> way it gets around is by being carried.

Wrong Len. Aphids do grow wings. See
http://www.princeton.edu/~dstern/AphidResearch.htm and
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-05/bpl-apc051805.php

[Farm1]

"Dave -Turner" > wrote in message
...
> So if i destroy the ants nests at the bases of my roses bushes that
would
> have a significant effect on the aphid populations (by allowing
other
> predatory insects in that the ants wouldve otherwise kept away) ?

Probably not. All gardens have ants of lots of varieties. You need
to do something about the aphids.

[Farm1]

"gardenlen" > wrote in message
> that is how it has worked for me, aslo i don't think the aphids last
> long without their farmers.

Not true Len. There are many people who have aphids and never have
ants. The garden books all talk about aphids but NEVER mention
getting rid of ants as a cure for getting rid of aphids.

In my own garden I have never, ever seen an ant on my rose bushes but
every spring I get aphids. The birds deal with them.

> once the ants have gone simply hose off the aphids with a strong
spray
> of water if you use an atomiser bottle add a bit of detergent.
moving
> the ants on is the lynch pin

Len that makes no sense. Ants aren't the problem only (according to
you) a consequence. Aphids are the problem.

If you hose a rose bush with both aphids and ants on it and can get
enough pressure to blow off the aphids then you would also blow off
the ants. Aphids have their snout buried in the bark of the rose.
Ants do not have the same sort of grip as the aphids. The only
problem with blowing off the aphids is that they will come back as
they will not all be removed and they breed up fast. Killing the ants
will not control the aphids.

[Terryc]

Dave -Turner wrote:
> So if i destroy the ants nests at the bases of my roses bushes that would
> have a significant effect on the aphid populations (by allowing other
> predatory insects in that the ants wouldve otherwise kept away) ?

Do not use poisons to do this as they could also kill your wanted
predatory insects {:-).
When you remove the ants, you might also find other insects now start
attacking the rose bushes because the ants also fed on them {:-)

I just settle for culling the aphids with a strong hose spray each time
I water, or splashing/spraying them with soapy water (left over
windscreen wash water).

[gardenlen]

well i guess farm1 you can believe the book which mainly only deal
with chemicals to control things and never look for the root cause.

but i have had ants and aphids together many times as have many other
gardeners.

i am on many other forums where there are horticulturists helping
people and they give the same advice that i have.



On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 14:06:14 +1000, "Farm1" <please@askifyouwannaknow>
wrote:

snipped
With peace and brightest of blessings,

len

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.gardenlen.com

[Jen]

"gardenlen" > wrote in message
...
> well i guess farm1 you can believe the book which mainly only deal
> with chemicals to control things and never look for the root cause.
>
> but i have had ants and aphids together many times as have many other
> gardeners.
>

I get heaps of aphids on my roses, and even more on my nasturtiums
underneath. So I've given up with the nasturtiums - too hard to keep free
of aphids. I've always had ants around the area as well, and I knew they
farmed the aphids, but it never occurred to me to remove the ants. I'll try
that this year thanks.

Jen

[Jen]

"Farm1" <please@askifyouwannaknow> wrote in message
...
> "gardenlen" > wrote in message
>> that is how it has worked for me, aslo i don't think the aphids last
>> long without their farmers.
>
>
> Len that makes no sense. Ants aren't the problem only (according to
> you) a consequence. Aphids are the problem.
>
> If you hose a rose bush with both aphids and ants on it and can get
> enough pressure to blow off the aphids then you would also blow off
> the ants. Aphids have their snout buried in the bark of the rose.
> Ants do not have the same sort of grip as the aphids. The only
> problem with blowing off the aphids is that they will come back as
> they will not all be removed and they breed up fast. Killing the ants
> will not control the aphids.
>
>
But the ants help the aphids! If you get rid of the ants at least they
won't have their helpers and they'll be easier to control. Sounds logical
to me.

Jen

[gardenlen]

that's about the best you can do jen,

i as a rule only recommend ations that i have done myself, not into
plagerising passages out of books.

and too many times over the years the question has been asked by
gardeners who have tried every thing except flame throwers and the
aphids keep coming back, yup because as quick as you spray them the
ants bring new ones back.

get rid of the ants and then hose the aphids away when i've had them
this has worked, i got roses in pots here got no ants in the pots and
got no aphids.


On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 08:41:22 GMT, "Jen" >
wrote:

snipped
With peace and brightest of blessings,

len

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.gardenlen.com

[ant[_5_]]

Speaking of mongrel ants who bring nasties to things (like trees), how can
you slaughter large numbers of them? I have a larger problem, with ants and
sticky stuff and trees/bushes slowly struggling against them.


--
ant
Don't try to email me;
I'm borrowing the spammer du jour's addy

[Farm1]

"gardenlen" > wrote in message

> well i guess farm1 you can believe the book which mainly only deal
> with chemicals to control things and never look for the root cause.

I didn't mention any book that called for chemicals. You are making
an incorrect assumption but then you've made a number of incorrect
assumtions in this discussion.

You have also claimed (and presumably believe) that aphids are
flighless and must be carried. Rose aphids certainly do have wings at
soem stage of the season so I assume that they can fly. You have also
written of ants farming "those thript type bugs". Aphids and thrips
are 2 different insects. You also say that you have "observed ants
harvesting aphids not only on roses but on other plants as well".
Ants don't "harvest" aphids but they may eat the honeydew. Rose
aphids don't live on other plants except perhaps pyracantha.

Ants are not the cause of aphids. Aphids may result in ants being on
the roses to get the exudate from the aphids as you describe, BUT
without the aphids being there in the first place, they wouldn't be on
the roses. You said yourself that ants do NOT damage or eat the roses
so destroying the ants is only a secondary consideration. If you get
rid of the aphids then the ants won't be on the roses because they
don't eat the rose.

> but i have had ants and aphids together many times as have many
other
> gardeners.

You assume that all aphids are the same. They arent' there are
4,000+varieties of aphids.

And Len, not so long ago you wrote:
""gardenlen" > wrote in message
> g'day jen,
>
> i'm no rose grower, so probably can't help too much here, but the
new
> home we bought had some roses in the garden, so in preperation for
> pulling the garden out i just cut them all back to almost ground
> level, and those plants loved it they are a mass of growth and
healthy
> looking plants not the spindly yukky looking things that uninspired
me
> even more about the plant.
>
> i know you are supposed to thin them out and prune them to an open
> vase shape, but hey without any water these plants look great. the
> funny bit i reckon they may even put on their best show of flowers
> next season.
>
> oh i'm even taking them out of the garden and potting them and they
> haven't looked back, treat 'em rough i say they'll love it.

You admit that you aren't a rose grower.

I am. I planted my first rose 35 years ago. I also stopped coutning
when I got to 108 roses in my garden. Since I stopped counting (and
there are more than 108 roses in my garden) I have planted more roses.
I also have seen pics of your last 2 gardens and looked at the new
pics of your current place. Not a rose bush in sight.

I have aphids each year and I DON'T have ants on my roses and never
have had ants on my roses. My aphids disappear as the biological
controls work

> i am on many other forums where there are horticulturists helping
> people and they give the same advice that i have.

They may say that if you get rid of the aphids then you will get rid
of the ants on your roses.

[Farm1]

"Jen" > wrote in message
> "Farm1" <please@askifyouwannaknow> wrote in message
> > "gardenlen" > wrote in message

> >> that is how it has worked for me, aslo i don't think the aphids
last
> >> long without their farmers.

> > Len that makes no sense. Ants aren't the problem only (according
to
> > you) a consequence. Aphids are the problem.
> >
> > If you hose a rose bush with both aphids and ants on it and can
get
> > enough pressure to blow off the aphids then you would also blow
off
> > the ants. Aphids have their snout buried in the bark of the rose.
> > Ants do not have the same sort of grip as the aphids. The only
> > problem with blowing off the aphids is that they will come back as
> > they will not all be removed and they breed up fast. Killing the
ants
> > will not control the aphids.

> But the ants help the aphids! If you get rid of the ants at least
they
> won't have their helpers and they'll be easier to control. Sounds
logical
> to me.

Well think about it a bit more and try reading what Len wrote. He
wrote "i don't think the aphids last long without their farmers".
Aphids will exist quite happily without ants. Mine do till the birds
kick in and start eating the aphids.

You have introduced a new thought over and above what Len said in that
you believe that you will control the aphids "easier" without the
ants.

That may or may not be so. If you don't have birds in your garden or
ladybirds/lacewings etc and you have to rely on chemicals then nuking
the ants before nuking the aphids MAY make it easier to control them,
but that is NOT what Len said.

Len thinks that aphids won't survive without ants. I went through all
my rose books today and not one of them mentions such a situation.
All mention aphids but not one mentions that aphids must be farmed by
ants in order to survive.

[Farm1]

"Jen" > wrote in message
> "gardenlen" > wrote in message

> > well i guess farm1 you can believe the book which mainly only deal
> > with chemicals to control things and never look for the root
cause.
> >
> > but i have had ants and aphids together many times as have many
other
> > gardeners.
> >
>
> I get heaps of aphids on my roses, and even more on my nasturtiums
> underneath. So I've given up with the nasturtiums - too hard to
keep free
> of aphids.

But which of the 4,000+ species of aphids do you have on your
nasturtiums? You probably have the rose aphid on your roses but on
your nasturtiums.................?

[Farm1]

"ant" > wrote in message

> Speaking of mongrel ants who bring nasties to things (like trees),
how can
> you slaughter large numbers of them? I have a larger problem, with
ants and
> sticky stuff and trees/bushes slowly struggling against them.

As Len (rightly) mentioned, the ants come for the sticky stuff. There
will be some sort of bug on your trees which is causing the sticky
exudate.

What sort of trees and do they have sooty mould? Sooty mould looks
just like black soot.

[ant[_5_]]

Farm1 wrote:
> Ants don't "harvest" aphids but they may eat the honeydew. Rose
> aphids don't live on other plants except perhaps pyracantha.

That's interesting, I didn't know that. I grow Basil inside, and sometimes
end up with horrible aphid infestations on it, nasty green ones. I always
assumed the sneaky buggers were coming up from the roses.

--
ant
Don't try to email me;
I'm borrowing the spammer du jour's addy

[ant[_5_]]

Farm1 wrote:
> "ant" > wrote in message
>
> > Speaking of mongrel ants who bring nasties to things (like trees),
> > how can you slaughter large numbers of them? I have a larger
> > problem, with ants and sticky stuff and trees/bushes slowly
> > struggling against them.
>
> As Len (rightly) mentioned, the ants come for the sticky stuff. There
> will be some sort of bug on your trees which is causing the sticky
> exudate.
>
> What sort of trees and do they have sooty mould? Sooty mould looks
> just like black soot.

gums, mainly. It's quite virulent. Some have the black yuck on them, other
have a sort of messy sticky stuff, and lots of ants. It's bloody annoying.
We've planted hundreds of trees over the years, and many are being smashed
into oblivion by this stuff. The trees I germinated from local gumnuts seem
particularly prone to this. The mannifera are the least prone.

--
ant
Don't try to email me;
I'm borrowing the spammer du jour's addy

[Farm1]

"ant" > wrote in message
...
> Farm1 wrote:
> > "ant" > wrote in message
> >
> > > Speaking of mongrel ants who bring nasties to things (like
trees),
> > > how can you slaughter large numbers of them? I have a larger
> > > problem, with ants and sticky stuff and trees/bushes slowly
> > > struggling against them.
> >
> > As Len (rightly) mentioned, the ants come for the sticky stuff.
There
> > will be some sort of bug on your trees which is causing the sticky
> > exudate.
> >
> > What sort of trees and do they have sooty mould? Sooty mould
looks
> > just like black soot.
>
> gums, mainly. It's quite virulent. Some have the black yuck on them,
other
> have a sort of messy sticky stuff, and lots of ants. It's bloody
annoying.

Have a good close look at the trees. There will be some sort of bug
on them. Maybe a scale insect which looks like a flat scale that
clings very closely to the bark (I dont' know if mealybugs also grow
on trees???) You'll have trouble scraping the scale off with your
fingernail but you'll get goo on your nail when you do.

First step is to find out what sort of bug you have. I don't like
using any chemicals but I'm sure I used an agricultrual soap added to
a light white oil to get rid of a similar problem I had once.

[gardenlen]

g'day ant,

then you may want to figure how they get inside your home you do have
fly screen i imagine and then i guess the aphids need to be smart
enough to figure which room of the home you have the plants in.

when ever aphids and i don't discriminate come onto my idoor plants i
generally find that ants have visited.



On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:01:04 +1000, "ant" >
wrote:
snipped
With peace and brightest of blessings,

len

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.gardenlen.com

[ant[_5_]]

gardenlen wrote:
> g'day ant,
>
> then you may want to figure how they get inside your home you do have
> fly screen i imagine and then i guess the aphids need to be smart
> enough to figure which room of the home you have the plants in.
>
> when ever aphids and i don't discriminate come onto my idoor plants i
> generally find that ants have visited.

I do get ants coming inside quite often. And I have a giant boston fern that
is very sticky, and is visited by ants! Doesn't seem to bother the fern at
all, but the floor underneath it gets sticky.


--
ant
Don't try to email me;
I'm borrowing the spammer du jour's addy

[gardenlen]

g'day ant,

they are very resourcefull, and yes they will bring mealy bugs and
scale onto your ferns.

if not dealt with the ferns is going to suffer heaps could all but
die.

with scale amd mealy you either have to pick them off or with mealies
using a cotton bud dipped in meth touch each bug, or cut the fern
right back and douse with a 1/4 rate mix of white oil, the worst with
mealies is if the ants colonise them on the roots of the plant it is
usually best to destry the plant, on plams i ahve manged to wash the
roots and all in a white oil mix but it realy knocks the plant about,
and not guranteed to be successful.

On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 12:34:36 +1000, "ant" >
wrote:

snipped
With peace and brightest of blessings,

len

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.gardenlen.com

[ant[_5_]]

gardenlen wrote:

> with scale amd mealy you either have to pick them off or with mealies
> using a cotton bud dipped in meth touch each bug, or cut the fern
> right back and douse with a 1/4 rate mix of white oil, the worst with
> mealies is if the ants colonise them on the roots of the plant it is
> usually best to destry the plant, on plams i ahve manged to wash the
> roots and all in a white oil mix but it realy knocks the plant about,
> and not guranteed to be successful.

I'll have to look at the fern again, but it's been like this for years. It
grows strongly and well (in my experience all these boston/fishbone ferns
do). However, all my palm trees have over the years had the same thing, the
stickyness, the ants. I could see something on them and attacked it again
and again with white oil, but never got anywhere. Must have been in the
roots, like you say. bloody ants! I don't feel guilty using dead ant on them
now.
--
ant
Don't try to email me;
I'm borrowing the spammer du jour's addy

[John Savage]

"Jen" > writes:
>Yeah. I remember reading a book about ants, that said ants farm aphids and
>milk them.

As the day heats up the ants will even shuffle the aphids around so that
they stay in the shade. Or so I've read.
--
John Savage (my news address is not valid for email)

[John Savage]

"Dave -Turner" > writes:
>Today I noticed on my roses out the backyard that most of the bud sites are
>covered in aphids. Now before i go on I should warn you that i put the "um"
>in greenthumb and ive never tackled aphids before.

The usual advice is to spray the aphid colonies with soapy water. There's
a new product, Yates Nutrasoap, that can be used for this.

But for an immediate kill, mix 1 part metho with 3 parts water and
spray onto each bud. A few minutes later you can hose the dead aphids
off the plant and hey presto, you have your rose bug-free again.

If you get any on the ladybirds it will probably spell their end. The
mixture hasn't hurt anything I've tried it on, but test it on a few
buds before you try the whole lot if you're worried.
--
John Savage (my news address is not valid for email)

[Farm1]

"Ms Leebee" > wrote in message

> Have never noticed ants in connection with my roses, but will keep a
sharper
> lookout.

I've been wondering about this since Len and others kept reporting
that they have both on their roses.

I know that I do a fair amount of scratching around and managing the
soil and the plants under my roses and the ant nests in my garden are
all in drier places where I do not ever disturb them.

I had one bed which did have ants harvesting from scale insect from a
bush but as soon as I started working up that bed and improving the
soil and improved my general sol management practices, they
disappeared and haven't been back since.

How do you grow your roses and manage the soil?

[John Savage]

John Savage > wrote:
>The usual advice is to spray the aphid colonies with soapy water. There's
>a new product, Yates Nutrasoap, that can be used for this.

Err, you'll have more success by looking for "Naturasoap" I think! :-(
--
John Savage (my news address is not valid for email)

[John Savage]

"ant" > writes:
>Farm1 wrote:
>> Ants don't "harvest" aphids but they may eat the honeydew. Rose
>> aphids don't live on other plants except perhaps pyracantha.
>
>That's interesting, I didn't know that. I grow Basil inside, and sometimes
>end up with horrible aphid infestations on it, nasty green ones. I always
>assumed the sneaky buggers were coming up from the roses.

I read where milk thistles, the common ones that budgies and other caged
birds love to nibble on, are a gardening menace. Aphids will over-winter
on thistles to then re-infest your valued plants next spring. So I checked
on the roots and under the lower leaves of thistles during winter, and sure
enough those regions were thick with aphids. I also discovered that fennel
is a winter host for aphids, the winter foliage of some I inspected before
eating was seen to be chock-a-block covered with aphids. So there are two
sources that you might want to eliminate from your immediate surroundings
to minimise the chances of re-infestation by aphids.

Here I'd been encouraging thistles 'cause they at least provided some green
colour in a fallow winter bed of straw mulch. :-(
--
John Savage (my news address is not valid for email)

[gardenlen]

g'day john,

hmmm interesting that one hey? i encourage the milk & sow thistles as
i find that the othe bugs would rather chew on them than me vege's
etc, also the thistles flower profusely and bring in the pollinators
for better tomato and capsicum pollination.

i haven't had a lot of problems with aphids in my gardens all the
same, i'm currently encouraging m.t's to grow in this garden for the
same above reasons, but will take note to see if i get more aphids or
not.

for me but i would be assuming that if the aphids are happy on the
m.t's then they may leave the other plants alone??? initially if i
found that i would be going along the lines of the m.t being a good
companion plant to have, wonder but??

currently but still only got aphids on one rose and as the m.t's are
new as well they most likley didn't over winter on them i'd be
thinking.

but suppose if the ants are doing the farming then again that could be
the lynch pin, or do suppsoe that the aphids move themselves from the
m.t to the roses say?



On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 00:27:06 GMT, John Savage
> wrote:

snipped
With peace and brightest of blessings,

len

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.gardenlen.com

[Jen]

"Farm1" <please@askifyouwannaknow> wrote in message
...
> "Ms Leebee" > wrote in message
>
>> Have never noticed ants in connection with my roses, but will keep a
> sharper
>> lookout.
>
> I've been wondering about this since Len and others kept reporting
> that they have both on their roses.
>
> I know that I do a fair amount of scratching around and managing the
> soil and the plants under my roses and the ant nests in my garden are
> all in drier places where I do not ever disturb them.
>
> I had one bed which did have ants harvesting from scale insect from a
> bush but as soon as I started working up that bed and improving the
> soil and improved my general sol management practices, they
> disappeared and haven't been back since.
>
> How do you grow your roses and manage the soil?

I always thought that cultivating the soil around a plant is bad for it's
roots. Anyway the ants that I have are coming from under the house and in
the mortar of the bricks.

Jen

[ant[_5_]]

John Savage wrote:
> "ant" > writes:
> > Farm1 wrote:
> > > Ants don't "harvest" aphids but they may eat the honeydew. Rose
> > > aphids don't live on other plants except perhaps pyracantha.
> >
> > That's interesting, I didn't know that. I grow Basil inside, and
> > sometimes end up with horrible aphid infestations on it, nasty
> > green ones. I always assumed the sneaky buggers were coming up from
> > the roses.
>
> I read where milk thistles, the common ones that budgies and other
> caged birds love to nibble on, are a gardening menace. Aphids will
> over-winter on thistles to then re-infest your valued plants next
> spring. So I checked on the roots and under the lower leaves of
> thistles during winter, and sure enough those regions were thick with
> aphids. I also discovered that fennel is a winter host for aphids,
> the winter foliage of some I inspected before eating was seen to be
> chock-a-block covered with aphids. So there are two sources that you
> might want to eliminate from your immediate surroundings to minimise
> the chances of re-infestation by aphids.
>
> Here I'd been encouraging thistles 'cause they at least provided some
> green colour in a fallow winter bed of straw mulch. :-(

Bugger. I do have a lot of those big, squeaky thistles. Keep spraying them
and the pattersons, and am making inroads, but never quite get on top of
them. And there's a giant patch of both within sight of the house. And, it's
quite warm up here, compared with down in Canberra. Sigh. Now things are
becoming clearer. Well, I'm going to get the biggest, giantest bag of Borax
EVER and hit those mongrel ants for a start.

--
ant
Don't try to email me;
I'm borrowing the spammer du jour's addy

[Farm1]

"Jen" > wrote in message
> "Farm1" <please@askifyouwannaknow> wrote in message
> > "Ms Leebee" > wrote in
message
> >
> >> Have never noticed ants in connection with my roses, but will
keep a
> > sharper
> >> lookout.
> >
> > I've been wondering about this since Len and others kept reporting
> > that they have both on their roses.
> >
> > I know that I do a fair amount of scratching around and managing
the
> > soil and the plants under my roses and the ant nests in my garden
are
> > all in drier places where I do not ever disturb them.
> >
> > I had one bed which did have ants harvesting from scale insect
from a
> > bush but as soon as I started working up that bed and improving
the
> > soil and improved my general sol management practices, they
> > disappeared and haven't been back since.
> >
> > How do you grow your roses and manage the soil?
>
> I always thought that cultivating the soil around a plant is bad for
it's
> roots.

Depends on how close you get.

Anyway the ants that I have are coming from under the house and in
> the mortar of the bricks.

Yes that makes sense. A nice dry undisturbed spot rather than in an
area of cultivation.

[Farm1]

"ant" > wrote in message

> Bugger. I do have a lot of those big, squeaky thistles. Keep
spraying them
> and the pattersons, and am making inroads, but never quite get on
top of
> them.

Doing both of these at the rosette stage (ie now) is the best time to
knock them off. My husband has got rid of nealry all the thistles on
our place by doing it at this time of year but it took a good 5 or so
years but we proably have more land than you.

[John Savage]

gardenlen > writes:
>hmmm interesting that one hey? i encourage the milk & sow thistles as
>i find that the othe bugs would rather chew on them than me vege's
>etc, also the thistles flower profusely and bring in the pollinators
>for better tomato and capsicum pollination.

That's a logical-sounding line of thinking, Len, but ....

>for me but i would be assuming that if the aphids are happy on the
>m.t's then they may leave the other plants alone???

Possibly you are right -- but your explanation relies on thistles being
an around-the-year crop, and are they? I think of milk thistles as being
a winter/spring plant, and if so then the aphids will have to move on to
something else in your garden when their thistle hosts disappear during
summer. If my theory is right, then this would give rise to the reputation
of milk thistles giving overwintering hosting to aphids.

>but suppose if the ants are doing the farming then again that could be
>the lynch pin, or do suppsoe that the aphids move themselves from the
>m.t to the roses say?

I haven't studied aphids closely enough. (Maybe I'll get out the paint
pallete and put a few red crosses on some aphids so I can monitor their
movements?) But I'm sceptical that aphids have evolved to be totally
dependent upon ants for locomotion. It is stretching my credulity that
if an aphid wants to get from Rosebud #1 to Rosebud #3 it must flag down
a passing ant to taxi it around the plant. My experience with aphids is
that there are lots of aphids AND ants on the red tips of my prize lemon
tree, but I don't object as there is plenty of juice and sap for everyone
to have a share! On minature roses I've seen every bud covered with aphids,
but I doubt that an ant (or even a hundred of them) could have assiduously
carried equal numbers of aphids out to each bud and with such care as to
not miss even one bud.

I just spray them with my metho+water mixture and say good riddance! The
ants must be fast learners if they are responsible for backpacking aphids
around the garden--they make no attempt to replace those lost to my metho
spray!! Maybe baby aphids being so small and lightweight can hitch a ride
with butterflies and bees and on the beaks and feet of birds? I think that
might be quite likely. But I reckon aphids probably have their own little
legs to propel them around. I will investigate this question more closely!
--
John Savage (my news address is not valid for email)

[Farm1]

"John Savage" > wrote in message

> But I reckon aphids probably have their own little
> legs to propel them around. I will investigate this question more
closely!

The rose aphid goes by the Latin name of "Macrosiphum rosae" if you
want to google it.

[Geoff & Heather]

Every now and then Aphids produce a generation of winged creature to help
spread their population around.. They also have some funny reproductive
processes, including females being born pregnant !! There's an interesting
article in Wikipedia on them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphid

Geoff


"Farm1" <please@askifyouwannaknow> wrote in message
...
> "John Savage" > wrote in message
>
>> But I reckon aphids probably have their own little
>> legs to propel them around. I will investigate this question more
> closely!
>
> The rose aphid goes by the Latin name of "Macrosiphum rosae" if you
> want to google it.
>
>
>

[ant[_5_]]

Geoff & Heather wrote:
> They also have some funny
> reproductive processes, including females being born pregnant !!


Sounds like some religions and their beliefs.

--
ant
Don't try to email me;
I'm borrowing the spammer du jour's addy

[garyweddell@sbcglobal.net]

Spray with a natural product like the one at
http://www.natural-ant-killer.com

It won't harm your roses or the environment. In fact a side benefit to
this product is that is also works as a natural fertilizer!

I have personally used it on my lawn and no longer have any pesty
pests. And my lawn looks terrific!

They tell me that the way it works is that it contains an natural
surfactant that breaks water molecules in molecules that are so tiny
that they penetrate the waxy coating of critters and it drowns them
instantly!

Because it breaks down water into smaller molecules, it gets down into
the soil better and as a result my lawn and plants flourished!

I am estatic!