pH fluctuations? GH drift? [Archive]

linda mar

15-04-2003, 03:56 AM

Hi all,

I've been trying to figure out what may be stressing my fish... before I
start adding wide-spectrum antibiotics or anti-parasitics, I wanted to rule
out stuff that is more prosaic than some insidious infection...

so I've started to test pH more regularly (every day for the past 4 days).
it's a moderately planted 37G tank, nitrite, ammonia, nitrate is always
zero... temp ~75F.. UGF (2 aquaclear201 powerheadss) + HOT Magnum.

unfortunately when I test, I sometimes get a color that doesn't match any of
the color on the pH chart (AP pH test kit). so one day, I got a dead-on
7.0... then the next day, it was baby blue, but not as dark as a 7.6.. and
it definitely was not 7.2 or 7.4 green-tinge. so.. what the heck is this
value?

so my question is:

1. what would equate to a very diluted 7.6 color? is that considered 7.6?
(basically, no green.. looks like the baby blue for the AP freshwater
nitrite test kit when nitrite=0, but much much lighter than what the card
shows for 7.6). I've tried very high pH (tap water).. and the color turned
very dark blue, like the 7.6 on the scale.. so..

2. can a pH drift from 7.0 to 7.6 in two days when you dont' do anything?
can plants do this? (CO2 outdiffusion, etc) I've heard of water turning
acid, but not creeping to alkaline...

3. dKH=2, dGH=6... which is kinda funny.. it was 3, 3 last month. just
tested the the tap and is GH/KH=2... (I use the dechlor'ed tap when I do
partial water change...) so the GH drifted from 2 to 6 in the past month or
so. is this indicative of something strange with the water? (oddly enough,
when I checked my LFS's water it was pH7.0, GH=6, KH=2, and we probably have
the same water source as we are neighboring city.. I wonder if tap drifted
really high in GH one week when we both did water change?)

4. I've added flourish, flourish tabs, flourish iron and flourish excel in
recommended doses over the past month. can that contribute to GH creep and
pH instability?

5. should I even *attempt* to increase kH to stabilize the pH from
fluctuating too much? (my idea is less is better for overall maintenanceship
of tanks... but if it is necessary..)

6. is there a better pH indicator that will show me better 7.0-8.0 range?
(my water is alkaline.. have yet to see it go below 7.0)

linda

Alex R

15-04-2003, 07:44 AM

"linda mar" > wrote in message
...
> Hi all,
>
> I've been trying to figure out what may be stressing my fish... before I
> start adding wide-spectrum antibiotics or anti-parasitics, I wanted to
rule
> out stuff that is more prosaic than some insidious infection...

If you're going to add medications to a planted tank, be aware that most
medications have negative effects on plants. I never add any medications to
my tank. I guess it depends on what's more important to you, fish or plants.

> so I've started to test pH more regularly (every day for the past 4 days).
> it's a moderately planted 37G tank, nitrite, ammonia, nitrate is always
> zero... temp ~75F.. UGF (2 aquaclear201 powerheadss) + HOT Magnum.

You should probably add some nitrate to help the plants.

> so my question is:
>
> 1. what would equate to a very diluted 7.6 color? is that considered 7.6?
> (basically, no green.. looks like the baby blue for the AP freshwater
> nitrite test kit when nitrite=0, but much much lighter than what the card
> shows for 7.6). I've tried very high pH (tap water).. and the color
turned
> very dark blue, like the 7.6 on the scale.. so..

My guess is that you're not putting the test tube directly against the color
chart card when comparing. If there reflected light coming from behind the
test tube, the color will look washed out and your interpretation will
likely be inaccurate. I have used the AP kit before, and I believe I stopped
using it because the printed colors and the test tube solution colors didn't
match well, and there are gaps between 6.0 and 6.4 and between 7.2 and 7.6.
The Hagen kit works a little better, but the AP one is still pretty usable.

> 2. can a pH drift from 7.0 to 7.6 in two days when you dont' do anything?
> can plants do this? (CO2 outdiffusion, etc) I've heard of water turning
> acid, but not creeping to alkaline...

If the KH remained the same, then I believe the pH increase you're seeing is
actually a daily cycle. In the daytime, the plants probably lower the CO2 to
below equilibrium, causing a rise in the pH. Then at night it builds up
again. In that case, you should increase the surface agitation to let the
atmospheric CO2 diffuse into the water better. Without CO2 injection, the
more surface agitation, the better.

> 3. dKH=2, dGH=6... which is kinda funny.. it was 3, 3 last month. just
> tested the the tap and is GH/KH=2... (I use the dechlor'ed tap when I do
> partial water change...) so the GH drifted from 2 to 6 in the past month
or
> so. is this indicative of something strange with the water? (oddly
enough,
> when I checked my LFS's water it was pH7.0, GH=6, KH=2, and we probably
have
> the same water source as we are neighboring city.. I wonder if tap
drifted
> really high in GH one week when we both did water change?)

You mean the GH drifted from 6 to 2? A drop in GH is usually caused by
snails. When they grow, their shells gather up the calcium from the water.
So a GH drop is due to growing snails and a KH drop is usually due to
nitrification activity.

> 4. I've added flourish, flourish tabs, flourish iron and flourish excel
in
> recommended doses over the past month. can that contribute to GH creep
and
> pH instability?

> 5. should I even *attempt* to increase kH to stabilize the pH from
> fluctuating too much? (my idea is less is better for overall
maintenanceship
> of tanks... but if it is necessary..)

Increasing the KH in your tank will not stabilize your pH. However, I would
still add some baking soda to make it 3 or 4 degrees, just to be safe from
the KH completely diminishing. To help with the pH fluctuations, increase
surface agitation.
__
Alex R

Rich Conley

15-04-2003, 06:56 PM

your GH is going up...you sure you dont have any rocks in the tank that are
dissolving?

linda mar wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I've been trying to figure out what may be stressing my fish... before I
> start adding wide-spectrum antibiotics or anti-parasitics, I wanted to rule
> out stuff that is more prosaic than some insidious infection...
>
> so I've started to test pH more regularly (every day for the past 4 days).
> it's a moderately planted 37G tank, nitrite, ammonia, nitrate is always
> zero... temp ~75F.. UGF (2 aquaclear201 powerheadss) + HOT Magnum.
>
> unfortunately when I test, I sometimes get a color that doesn't match any of
> the color on the pH chart (AP pH test kit). so one day, I got a dead-on
> 7.0... then the next day, it was baby blue, but not as dark as a 7.6.. and
> it definitely was not 7.2 or 7.4 green-tinge. so.. what the heck is this
> value?
>
> so my question is:
>
> 1. what would equate to a very diluted 7.6 color? is that considered 7.6?
> (basically, no green.. looks like the baby blue for the AP freshwater
> nitrite test kit when nitrite=0, but much much lighter than what the card
> shows for 7.6). I've tried very high pH (tap water).. and the color turned
> very dark blue, like the 7.6 on the scale.. so..
>
> 2. can a pH drift from 7.0 to 7.6 in two days when you dont' do anything?
> can plants do this? (CO2 outdiffusion, etc) I've heard of water turning
> acid, but not creeping to alkaline...
>
> 3. dKH=2, dGH=6... which is kinda funny.. it was 3, 3 last month. just
> tested the the tap and is GH/KH=2... (I use the dechlor'ed tap when I do
> partial water change...) so the GH drifted from 2 to 6 in the past month or
> so. is this indicative of something strange with the water? (oddly enough,
> when I checked my LFS's water it was pH7.0, GH=6, KH=2, and we probably have
> the same water source as we are neighboring city.. I wonder if tap drifted
> really high in GH one week when we both did water change?)
>
> 4. I've added flourish, flourish tabs, flourish iron and flourish excel in
> recommended doses over the past month. can that contribute to GH creep and
> pH instability?
>
> 5. should I even *attempt* to increase kH to stabilize the pH from
> fluctuating too much? (my idea is less is better for overall maintenanceship
> of tanks... but if it is necessary..)
>
> 6. is there a better pH indicator that will show me better 7.0-8.0 range?
> (my water is alkaline.. have yet to see it go below 7.0)
>
> linda

linda mar

15-04-2003, 09:44 PM

no rocks. just some bog woods (purchased at LFS), and the standard
aquarium gravel (the inert kind).

linda

"Rich Conley" > wrote in message
...
> your GH is going up...you sure you dont have any rocks in the tank that
are
> dissolving?
>
> linda mar wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I've been trying to figure out what may be stressing my fish... before
I
> > start adding wide-spectrum antibiotics or anti-parasitics, I wanted to
rule
> > out stuff that is more prosaic than some insidious infection...
> >
> > so I've started to test pH more regularly (every day for the past 4
days).
> > it's a moderately planted 37G tank, nitrite, ammonia, nitrate is always
> > zero... temp ~75F.. UGF (2 aquaclear201 powerheadss) + HOT Magnum.
> >
> > unfortunately when I test, I sometimes get a color that doesn't match
any of
> > the color on the pH chart (AP pH test kit). so one day, I got a dead-on
> > 7.0... then the next day, it was baby blue, but not as dark as a 7.6..
and
> > it definitely was not 7.2 or 7.4 green-tinge. so.. what the heck is this
> > value?
> >
> > so my question is:
> >
> > 1. what would equate to a very diluted 7.6 color? is that considered
7.6?
> > (basically, no green.. looks like the baby blue for the AP freshwater
> > nitrite test kit when nitrite=0, but much much lighter than what the
card
> > shows for 7.6). I've tried very high pH (tap water).. and the color
turned
> > very dark blue, like the 7.6 on the scale.. so..
> >
> > 2. can a pH drift from 7.0 to 7.6 in two days when you dont' do
anything?
> > can plants do this? (CO2 outdiffusion, etc) I've heard of water turning
> > acid, but not creeping to alkaline...
> >
> > 3. dKH=2, dGH=6... which is kinda funny.. it was 3, 3 last month. just
> > tested the the tap and is GH/KH=2... (I use the dechlor'ed tap when I do
> > partial water change...) so the GH drifted from 2 to 6 in the past month
or
> > so. is this indicative of something strange with the water? (oddly
enough,
> > when I checked my LFS's water it was pH7.0, GH=6, KH=2, and we probably
have
> > the same water source as we are neighboring city.. I wonder if tap
drifted
> > really high in GH one week when we both did water change?)
> >
> > 4. I've added flourish, flourish tabs, flourish iron and flourish excel
in
> > recommended doses over the past month. can that contribute to GH creep
and
> > pH instability?
> >
> > 5. should I even *attempt* to increase kH to stabilize the pH from
> > fluctuating too much? (my idea is less is better for overall
maintenanceship
> > of tanks... but if it is necessary..)
> >
> > 6. is there a better pH indicator that will show me better 7.0-8.0
range?
> > (my water is alkaline.. have yet to see it go below 7.0)
> >
> > linda
>

Rich Conley

15-04-2003, 09:56 PM

hrm...I could see the bog wood bringing it down.....but up...I'm stumped.

linda mar wrote:

> no rocks. just some bog woods (purchased at LFS), and the standard
> aquarium gravel (the inert kind).
>
> linda
>
> "Rich Conley" > wrote in message
> ...
> > your GH is going up...you sure you dont have any rocks in the tank that
> are
> > dissolving?
> >
> > linda mar wrote:
> >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I've been trying to figure out what may be stressing my fish... before
> I
> > > start adding wide-spectrum antibiotics or anti-parasitics, I wanted to
> rule
> > > out stuff that is more prosaic than some insidious infection...
> > >
> > > so I've started to test pH more regularly (every day for the past 4
> days).
> > > it's a moderately planted 37G tank, nitrite, ammonia, nitrate is always
> > > zero... temp ~75F.. UGF (2 aquaclear201 powerheadss) + HOT Magnum.
> > >
> > > unfortunately when I test, I sometimes get a color that doesn't match
> any of
> > > the color on the pH chart (AP pH test kit). so one day, I got a dead-on
> > > 7.0... then the next day, it was baby blue, but not as dark as a 7.6..
> and
> > > it definitely was not 7.2 or 7.4 green-tinge. so.. what the heck is this
> > > value?
> > >
> > > so my question is:
> > >
> > > 1. what would equate to a very diluted 7.6 color? is that considered
> 7.6?
> > > (basically, no green.. looks like the baby blue for the AP freshwater
> > > nitrite test kit when nitrite=0, but much much lighter than what the
> card
> > > shows for 7.6). I've tried very high pH (tap water).. and the color
> turned
> > > very dark blue, like the 7.6 on the scale.. so..
> > >
> > > 2. can a pH drift from 7.0 to 7.6 in two days when you dont' do
> anything?
> > > can plants do this? (CO2 outdiffusion, etc) I've heard of water turning
> > > acid, but not creeping to alkaline...
> > >
> > > 3. dKH=2, dGH=6... which is kinda funny.. it was 3, 3 last month. just
> > > tested the the tap and is GH/KH=2... (I use the dechlor'ed tap when I do
> > > partial water change...) so the GH drifted from 2 to 6 in the past month
> or
> > > so. is this indicative of something strange with the water? (oddly
> enough,
> > > when I checked my LFS's water it was pH7.0, GH=6, KH=2, and we probably
> have
> > > the same water source as we are neighboring city.. I wonder if tap
> drifted
> > > really high in GH one week when we both did water change?)
> > >
> > > 4. I've added flourish, flourish tabs, flourish iron and flourish excel
> in
> > > recommended doses over the past month. can that contribute to GH creep
> and
> > > pH instability?
> > >
> > > 5. should I even *attempt* to increase kH to stabilize the pH from
> > > fluctuating too much? (my idea is less is better for overall
> maintenanceship
> > > of tanks... but if it is necessary..)
> > >
> > > 6. is there a better pH indicator that will show me better 7.0-8.0
> range?
> > > (my water is alkaline.. have yet to see it go below 7.0)
> > >
> > > linda
> >

linda mar

15-04-2003, 10:08 PM

"Alex R" > wrote in message
news:uVMma.484026$S_4.541144@rwcrnsc53...
> "linda mar" > wrote in message
> ...

> If you're going to add medications to a planted tank, be aware that most
> medications have negative effects on plants. I never add any medications
to
> my tank. I guess it depends on what's more important to you, fish or
plants.

at this point, probably the fish... I know plants are living too, but...
(not to mention I dont' have the best setup for the plants, so my
expectation for my plants' longterm survival is rather low) but like I said,
I'm trying to search all venues before resorting to medication... and if I
can treat individual fish in the quarantine tank, I would, but whatever is
affecting my fish seems contagious to a certain extent.. so if I do
medicate, it will have to be the whole main tank. (which is why I'm a bit
nervous about just blindly doing this)

> > so I've started to test pH more regularly (every day for the past 4
days).
> > it's a moderately planted 37G tank, nitrite, ammonia, nitrate is always
> > zero... temp ~75F.. UGF (2 aquaclear201 powerheadss) + HOT Magnum.
>
> You should probably add some nitrate to help the plants.

yes.. but at this point, I really don't want to add anything until I figure
what is going on with the fish population...

> My guess is that you're not putting the test tube directly against the
color
> chart card when comparing. If there reflected light coming from behind the

no.. I have the tube right up against the paper. I read it in sunlight (or
very bright halogen light), and when in doubt, I always create the control
specimen, which is measuring the pH of my tap which is really high in pH.
there is a marked color darkness difference between very high pH (using tap
water), which does reflect the 7.6 color on the chart. but what i get is
from the tank is a pale version of the 7.6 (sort of like a 30%dilution...).
I guess it may mean somewhere between 7.2 and 7.6..???

> test tube, the color will look washed out and your interpretation will
> likely be inaccurate. I have used the AP kit before, and I believe I
stopped
> using it because the printed colors and the test tube solution colors
didn't
> match well, and there are gaps between 6.0 and 6.4 and between 7.2 and
7.6.
> The Hagen kit works a little better, but the AP one is still pretty
usable.

may be I'll try the hagen pH kit... AP is a bit annoying for me since my pH
does seem to land smack-in-between where they break the pH brackets...

> If the KH remained the same, then I believe the pH increase you're seeing
is
> actually a daily cycle. In the daytime, the plants probably lower the CO2
to
> below equilibrium, causing a rise in the pH. Then at night it builds up
> again. In that case, you should increase the surface agitation to let the
> atmospheric CO2 diffuse into the water better. Without CO2 injection, the
> more surface agitation, the better.

How wide can the plant-respiration-induced pH fluctuation be? can it really
go from 7.0 to 7.6? (37G, moderately planted...)

the surface is quite agitated, and water very well circulated.. I suppose I
can try adding more agitation (both Aquaclear 201 powerhead outputs are
directed directly towards the surface, as well as the HOT Magnum output.
there is a tremendous amount of surface ripple caused by total of about 400
gph water being spurted towards the surface (enough to suck down some air
into the tank where the different current meet.. sort of like a mini vortex
going on...), so... (lots of current in the tank...). may be I should
switch the HOT Magnum to trickle-type power filter? would that give more
gas exchange due to cascading water? (lower flow rate than the HOT Magnum,
though)

> You mean the GH drifted from 6 to 2? A drop in GH is usually caused by
> snails. When they grow, their shells gather up the calcium from the water.
> So a GH drop is due to growing snails and a KH drop is usually due to
> nitrification activity.

no. GH went *up* from 2 to 6... and no.. I have no rocks or any
mineral-creating stones in the tank (just some bogwood and the standard
inert aquarium gravel). There has been some explosion of snail population
which makes sense (higher GH supporting more snail shells..).. but I don't
think I have done anything purposefully to increase GH that I know of (other
than potentially the tap water had a very high GH one weekend or something),
unless those seachem flourish, flourish excel, flourish iron adds to GH (I
e-mailed them and they said it should not affect it)

> Increasing the KH in your tank will not stabilize your pH. However, I
would
> still add some baking soda to make it 3 or 4 degrees, just to be safe from
> the KH completely diminishing. To help with the pH fluctuations, increase
> surface agitation.

wouldn't adding baking soda increase the pH of the water? if the water is
already at or close to 7.6, I don't think it's such a good idea to increase
pH further (esp for the fish)... are there other means to increase KH
without increasing pH?

linda
> __
> Alex R
>
>

James Ervin

15-04-2003, 10:56 PM

On Mon, 14 Apr 2003 18:24:36 -0700, "linda mar" >
wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>I've been trying to figure out what may be stressing my fish... before I
>start adding wide-spectrum antibiotics or anti-parasitics, I wanted to rule
>out stuff that is more prosaic than some insidious infection...

Have you considered an ultraviolet unit before spending the bucks to
dose you tank with antibiotics? That would be my next step, other
than the moving GH figure that is being discussed in the thread. The
moving PH I would attribute to the natural CO2 cycle of your tank.
>
James Ervin
Remove SPAM to email me.

Tiddleye

15-04-2003, 11:20 PM

Hi Linda,

You have very soft water and your fish are suffering from PH shock by the
sound of it. I believe that your PH is unstable because your water has no
buffering capacity so that when you do a ph check, there are to little
minerals (either acid or alkaline) to get an accurate reading. If you want a
ph value of around 7.5 you need to increase your GH to about 6 and your KH
to around 10. This will stabilize your waters ph value.
You didn't say what fish you have so I don't know what parameters you need.

Regards
Tiddleye
"linda mar" > wrote in message
...
> Hi all,
>
> I've been trying to figure out what may be stressing my fish... before I
> start adding wide-spectrum antibiotics or anti-parasitics, I wanted to
rule
> out stuff that is more prosaic than some insidious infection...
>
> so I've started to test pH more regularly (every day for the past 4 days).
> it's a moderately planted 37G tank, nitrite, ammonia, nitrate is always
> zero... temp ~75F.. UGF (2 aquaclear201 powerheadss) + HOT Magnum.
>
> unfortunately when I test, I sometimes get a color that doesn't match any
of
> the color on the pH chart (AP pH test kit). so one day, I got a dead-on
> 7.0... then the next day, it was baby blue, but not as dark as a 7.6..
and
> it definitely was not 7.2 or 7.4 green-tinge. so.. what the heck is this
> value?
>
> so my question is:
>
> 1. what would equate to a very diluted 7.6 color? is that considered 7.6?
> (basically, no green.. looks like the baby blue for the AP freshwater
> nitrite test kit when nitrite=0, but much much lighter than what the card
> shows for 7.6). I've tried very high pH (tap water).. and the color
turned
> very dark blue, like the 7.6 on the scale.. so..
>
> 2. can a pH drift from 7.0 to 7.6 in two days when you dont' do anything?
> can plants do this? (CO2 outdiffusion, etc) I've heard of water turning
> acid, but not creeping to alkaline...
>
> 3. dKH=2, dGH=6... which is kinda funny.. it was 3, 3 last month. just
> tested the the tap and is GH/KH=2... (I use the dechlor'ed tap when I do
> partial water change...) so the GH drifted from 2 to 6 in the past month
or
> so. is this indicative of something strange with the water? (oddly
enough,
> when I checked my LFS's water it was pH7.0, GH=6, KH=2, and we probably
have
> the same water source as we are neighboring city.. I wonder if tap
drifted
> really high in GH one week when we both did water change?)
>
> 4. I've added flourish, flourish tabs, flourish iron and flourish excel
in
> recommended doses over the past month. can that contribute to GH creep
and
> pH instability?
>
> 5. should I even *attempt* to increase kH to stabilize the pH from
> fluctuating too much? (my idea is less is better for overall
maintenanceship
> of tanks... but if it is necessary..)
>
> 6. is there a better pH indicator that will show me better 7.0-8.0 range?
> (my water is alkaline.. have yet to see it go below 7.0)
>
>
> linda
>
>

Alex R

16-04-2003, 01:56 AM

"linda mar" > wrote in message
...
> very bright halogen light), and when in doubt, I always create the control
> specimen, which is measuring the pH of my tap which is really high in pH.
> there is a marked color darkness difference between very high pH (using
tap
> water), which does reflect the 7.6 color on the chart. but what i get is

The most likely reason that your tap water has a high pH is that it's low in
CO2. The CO2 level of the water straight from your tap might be variable at
different times. That's why such a reference sample is unreliable. You
should let a cup of water sit for a while, or aerate it, before taking its
pH. At KH of 2 degrees, your pH at equilibrium should be about 7.2. That
applies to both tank water and tap water.

> How wide can the plant-respiration-induced pH fluctuation be? can it
really
> go from 7.0 to 7.6? (37G, moderately planted...)

It sounds like you have plenty of agitation. But if there wasn't enough, the
plants could easily bring the pH up to 7.6. That only equals a 2 ppm drop in
CO2 from equilibrium. Of course, the plants would consume more CO2 with
higher lighting. How much light do you have? Any sunlight entering the tank?

> there is a tremendous amount of surface ripple caused by total of about
400
> gph water being spurted towards the surface (enough to suck down some air
> into the tank where the different current meet.. sort of like a mini
vortex
> going on...), so... (lots of current in the tank...). may be I should
> switch the HOT Magnum to trickle-type power filter? would that give more
> gas exchange due to cascading water? (lower flow rate than the HOT Magnum,
> though)

As I said, it seems like there is more than enough agitation from those 3
sources.

> no. GH went *up* from 2 to 6... and no.. I have no rocks or any
> mineral-creating stones in the tank (just some bogwood and the standard
> inert aquarium gravel). There has been some explosion of snail population
> which makes sense (higher GH supporting more snail shells..).. but I don't
> think I have done anything purposefully to increase GH that I know of
(other
> than potentially the tap water had a very high GH one weekend or
something),
> unless those seachem flourish, flourish excel, flourish iron adds to GH (I
> e-mailed them and they said it should not affect it)

Okay, I misread that part. It might be due to snails dying and their shells
melting, but I'm not as certain about that. Or it might be the way you're
reading the GH kit results. I have a hard time with my AP GH test kit. The
color change from greenish-yellow to green is too subtle. Sometimes I miss
it and keep adding drops of the test solution.

Anyway, I think a large water change would greatly help reset the water
parameters, and balance things out. Change perhaps 50% of the water, and see
if the GH, KH, or pH start to drift again. Make sure you take the pH
readings at the same time each day. Then test the water at different times
on a single day to see if there are any daily cycles.

> wouldn't adding baking soda increase the pH of the water? if the water is
> already at or close to 7.6, I don't think it's such a good idea to
increase
> pH further (esp for the fish)... are there other means to increase KH
> without increasing pH?

Yes, more KH will increase the pH, but if the water is at 7.6, it's for some
other odd reason. If the KH is 3, for example, the equilibrium pH at that
level should only be about 7.4. But find out exactly why it's 7.6 before
adding the baking soda. A way to increase the KH without affecting the pH is
of course to inject CO2. The addition of CO2 can offset the pH increase due
to higher KH.
__
Alex

LeighMo

16-04-2003, 11:33 PM

>1. what would equate to a very diluted 7.6 color? is that considered 7.6?

I would try re-doing the test. Make sure there are no bubbles in the drops
when add them to your water sample. Also, make sure your test tube is clean,
and don't cover the end of the tube with your finger. Use the cap.

>2. can a pH drift from 7.0 to 7.6 in two days when you dont' do anything?

Yes. It may mean the plants are stripping all the Co2 out of the water. How
much light do you have over this tank?

As for the GH...it could be a fluke in the water supply, or it could be
something dissolving in your tank. Gravel, rocks, shells, etc.

If you're using Onyx sand or gravel for a substrate, it will definitely raise
your GH.

Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

linda mar

17-04-2003, 01:08 AM

Hi Tiddleye,

I've been getting more of a sof****er fish that can tolerate wide range of
pH.. but pH drift is bad in either case.

right now I have some whitecloud minnows, danios, siamege algae eaters and
lace gouramis. all tolerate soft water and wide pH range (with a possible
exception of the SAE.. but they're kinda new, so...)

I am trying to keep it a sof****er tank.. eventually once the pH stabilizes,
I want to add some otos.. and they are soft water fish. (not to mention my
tap is soft, so it's easier to keep it as soft water)

GH is 6 right now, so I guess that is ok. I guess i'm looking for ways to
increase KH without increasing pH... do you know of any?

linda

"Tiddleye" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Linda,
>
> You have very soft water and your fish are suffering from PH shock by the
> sound of it. I believe that your PH is unstable because your water has no
> buffering capacity so that when you do a ph check, there are to little
> minerals (either acid or alkaline) to get an accurate reading. If you want
a
> ph value of around 7.5 you need to increase your GH to about 6 and your KH
> to around 10. This will stabilize your waters ph value.
> You didn't say what fish you have so I don't know what parameters you
need.
>
> Regards
> Tiddleye
> "linda mar" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I've been trying to figure out what may be stressing my fish... before
I
> > start adding wide-spectrum antibiotics or anti-parasitics, I wanted to
> rule
> > out stuff that is more prosaic than some insidious infection...
> >
> > so I've started to test pH more regularly (every day for the past 4
days).
> > it's a moderately planted 37G tank, nitrite, ammonia, nitrate is always
> > zero... temp ~75F.. UGF (2 aquaclear201 powerheadss) + HOT Magnum.
> >
> > unfortunately when I test, I sometimes get a color that doesn't match
any
> of
> > the color on the pH chart (AP pH test kit). so one day, I got a dead-on
> > 7.0... then the next day, it was baby blue, but not as dark as a 7.6..
> and
> > it definitely was not 7.2 or 7.4 green-tinge. so.. what the heck is this
> > value?
> >
> > so my question is:
> >
> > 1. what would equate to a very diluted 7.6 color? is that considered
7.6?
> > (basically, no green.. looks like the baby blue for the AP freshwater
> > nitrite test kit when nitrite=0, but much much lighter than what the
card
> > shows for 7.6). I've tried very high pH (tap water).. and the color
> turned
> > very dark blue, like the 7.6 on the scale.. so..
> >
> > 2. can a pH drift from 7.0 to 7.6 in two days when you dont' do
anything?
> > can plants do this? (CO2 outdiffusion, etc) I've heard of water turning
> > acid, but not creeping to alkaline...
> >
> > 3. dKH=2, dGH=6... which is kinda funny.. it was 3, 3 last month. just
> > tested the the tap and is GH/KH=2... (I use the dechlor'ed tap when I do
> > partial water change...) so the GH drifted from 2 to 6 in the past month
> or
> > so. is this indicative of something strange with the water? (oddly
> enough,
> > when I checked my LFS's water it was pH7.0, GH=6, KH=2, and we probably
> have
> > the same water source as we are neighboring city.. I wonder if tap
> drifted
> > really high in GH one week when we both did water change?)
> >
> > 4. I've added flourish, flourish tabs, flourish iron and flourish excel
> in
> > recommended doses over the past month. can that contribute to GH creep
> and
> > pH instability?
> >
> > 5. should I even *attempt* to increase kH to stabilize the pH from
> > fluctuating too much? (my idea is less is better for overall
> maintenanceship
> > of tanks... but if it is necessary..)
> >
> > 6. is there a better pH indicator that will show me better 7.0-8.0
range?
> > (my water is alkaline.. have yet to see it go below 7.0)
> >
> >
> > linda
> >
> >
>
>

linda mar

17-04-2003, 01:32 AM

Hi,

> >1. what would equate to a very diluted 7.6 color? is that considered
7.6?
>
> I would try re-doing the test. Make sure there are no bubbles in the
drops
> when add them to your water sample. Also, make sure your test tube is
clean,
> and don't cover the end of the tube with your finger. Use the cap.

no bubbles, and I pre-wash the test tube prior to testing using the aquarium
water (put some aquarium water in the tube, cap it, shake it up, dump it out
in the drain, and then put the real testing sample in.)... I've done the
test many times... now that I think about it, I can always make the color
go darker by adding baking soda (then the test color becomes near what my
tap would be.. darker blue), so I'm pretty certain it's not exactly 7.6, and
probably lower...

the tap is high in pH (about 8 when fresh out of tap, after overnight
settling, it is about 7.8). since the KH is low, the current thought is
that the water dept adds something in the tap to keep the pH high.

> >2. can a pH drift from 7.0 to 7.6 in two days when you dont' do
anything?
>
> Yes. It may mean the plants are stripping all the Co2 out of the water.
How
> much light do you have over this tank?

wow. power of plants..

Tank is can be regarded "moderately low light". I have ~5400K 55W CF (37G)
with the metallic reflector, sitting on top of a glass hood (Versatop). I
guess glass hood cuts down on the transmission of the light by about 30% or
so.. so the plants are getting about 1Wpg or slightly more. the tank does
get some sunlight right before the sun sets, but I've been shading the
window recently to prevent the direct light from hitting the tank (algae
reduction effort). The room is quite bright even then, with ambient
indirect light during daylight hours. the tank is about 8 ft away from the
closest large window and is free-standing. (the room has lots of very large
windows)

> As for the GH...it could be a fluke in the water supply, or it could be
> something dissolving in your tank. Gravel, rocks, shells, etc.

hmm.. no shells that I know of unless lots of snails died without me knowing
and fish ate the meat and thus didn't pollute water.. I have noticed some
snail shells getting stuck in the filter intake that the fish obvoiusly ate
the contents.. but I clean out the mechanical filter every week, so unless
those few little ones add GH.. the gravel I use is supposed to be inert
(50% epoxy coated, the other 50% is natural)

> If you're using Onyx sand or gravel for a substrate, it will definitely
raise
> your GH.

No Onyx. I have few cups of Flourite in there (my failed attempt to
localize Flourite near the plant roots).. but that has been in there for
months before this GH increase. It must be the fluke in the tap water
supply...

linda
>
>
>
> Leigh
>
> http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

linda mar

17-04-2003, 01:44 AM

Hi,

> hrm...I could see the bog wood bringing it down.....but up...I'm stumped.

isn't it? it's gotta be one week of high GH tap that I used during water
change or something like that...

linda

LeighMo

17-04-2003, 01:56 AM

>the tap is high in pH (about 8 when fresh out of tap, after overnight
>settling, it is about 7.8). since the KH is low, the current thought is
>that the water dept adds something in the tap to keep the pH high.

Can you ask them? Or search online. Many localities have their water reports
on the net. Search on the name of your locality and "water report"

And are you sure your KH test kit is working? Does adding baking soda increase
your KH?

>Tank is can be regarded "moderately low light". I have ~5400K 55W CF (37G)
>with the metallic reflector, sitting on top of a glass hood (Versatop).

So it's 55 over a 37 gallon tank, plus natural light?

That isn't a lot of light, but some people have had pH problems even with
moderate light. (Probably it depends on how many plants you have. Plus, the
first couple of weeks, PCF bulbs are extremely bright. They dim down a lot
after that.)

Try measuring the pH in the morning, just before the lights go on, in the
middle of the photoperiod, then in the evening, when the lights go off. If the
pH is lowest in the morning, then rises all day to reach a peak at the end of
the "day," then the plants are the cause of your pH changes.

If the pH gradually rises over several days while the KH drops, again, it's
probably the plants.

> the gravel I use is supposed to be inert
>(50% epoxy coated, the other 50% is natural)

The epoxy coated should be fine, but what's the natural gravel?

Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

linda mar

17-04-2003, 01:56 AM

hi Alex,

> > very bright halogen light), and when in doubt, I always create the
control
> > specimen, which is measuring the pH of my tap which is really high in
pH.
> > there is a marked color darkness difference between very high pH (using
> tap
> > water), which does reflect the 7.6 color on the chart. but what i get
is
>
> The most likely reason that your tap water has a high pH is that it's low
in
> CO2. The CO2 level of the water straight from your tap might be variable
at
> different times. That's why such a reference sample is unreliable. You
> should let a cup of water sit for a while, or aerate it, before taking its
> pH. At KH of 2 degrees, your pH at equilibrium should be about 7.2. That
> applies to both tank water and tap water.

the tap when left out for over 24 hours, the pH reads about 7.8... we think
the municipal water department adds something to make the pH artificially
high... the tank pH is lower than the tap (even after left out for several
days). probably because of the fish and the bog wood and stuff...

good to know KH=2 stabilizes at around 7.2...

> > How wide can the plant-respiration-induced pH fluctuation be? can it
> really
> > go from 7.0 to 7.6? (37G, moderately planted...)
>
> It sounds like you have plenty of agitation. But if there wasn't enough,
the
> plants could easily bring the pH up to 7.6. That only equals a 2 ppm drop
in
> CO2 from equilibrium. Of course, the plants would consume more CO2 with
> higher lighting. How much light do you have? Any sunlight entering the
tank?

it has one 55W CF through a glass hood and is on about 12 hrs (11am to
11pm.. so there is about 5 hours of "not pitch dark" ambient, filtered,
indirect light into the room prior to the lamp going on). so the tank is
about 1WPG (assuming about 30% loss in light intensity through the glass).
the tank is in a well-lit room with lots of windows, but the tank itself is
about 8ft from the closest window. it used to get a short direct light just
before sundown, but right now I have the drapes so it doesn't get any direct
sunlight (my feeble attempt to control algae..) for the past few weeks. the
room is still quite bright though (lots of windows).

> As I said, it seems like there is more than enough agitation from those 3
> sources.

:-) fun watching danios surfing the current.. whhhheeee!!!

> > no. GH went *up* from 2 to 6... and no.. I have no rocks or any

> Okay, I misread that part. It might be due to snails dying and their
shells
> melting, but I'm not as certain about that. Or it might be the way you're
> reading the GH kit results. I have a hard time with my AP GH test kit. The
> color change from greenish-yellow to green is too subtle. Sometimes I miss
> it and keep adding drops of the test solution.

yeah. I used to have that problem until now I look at the color by looking
directly into the tube from above.. This seems to give me better color
distinction just at the titration point. usually after two drops, the
yellow/orange is so faint, I can't tell when it turns green.. but these
days, more drops I put in, more yellow/orange it gets (and I shake the tube
using the cap too...).. so there is no mistake that GH is much higher than
it was before... it's just.. strange...

> Anyway, I think a large water change would greatly help reset the water
> parameters, and balance things out. Change perhaps 50% of the water, and
see
> if the GH, KH, or pH start to drift again. Make sure you take the pH

ok.. this weekend is my maintenance weekend, so i'll do larger water change
than usual (usual is about 25%)

> readings at the same time each day. Then test the water at different times
> on a single day to see if there are any daily cycles.

good point. I usually test in the evenings (after I get back from work).
I'll try a few days in a row, at the same time, and over the weekend, I'll
try morning, midday, evening test to see if I see anything..

> > wouldn't adding baking soda increase the pH of the water? if the water
is
> > already at or close to 7.6, I don't think it's such a good idea to
> increase
> > pH further (esp for the fish)... are there other means to increase KH
> > without increasing pH?
>
> Yes, more KH will increase the pH, but if the water is at 7.6, it's for
some
> other odd reason. If the KH is 3, for example, the equilibrium pH at that
> level should only be about 7.4. But find out exactly why it's 7.6 before
> adding the baking soda. A way to increase the KH without affecting the pH
is
> of course to inject CO2. The addition of CO2 can offset the pH increase
due
> to higher KH.

We currently think that the water dept adds something to make the pH
artificially high for the low KH value (prevents corrosion? may be it keeps
copper from leeching toxins or something? I don't know). I don't know what
they add to increase the pH. when I test, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate is
zero in the tap... I don't have any phosphate test kit or any other
indicator to figure out waht they do.. may be I should ask.

linda

linda mar

17-04-2003, 02:08 AM

isn't ultraviolet sterilizer quite expensive? the antibiotics is about
$4-$5/pack for the full treatment regimen.. I would think UV sterilizers are
much more expensive...?

I suppose I can do 30% water change every other day for a while to see if
that will reduce any pathogens.. (seems like water change may be in order
anyway to fix the GH creep, whatever the cause was)

I guess I better hold off on adding the CO2 injector (nutrafin) that I
bought few weeks ago, in the expectation that I will finish using the
flourish excel... CO2 injection will probably mess up the pH even more from
the sounds of it..?

linda

"James Ervin" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 14 Apr 2003 18:24:36 -0700, "linda mar" >
> wrote:
>
> >Hi all,
> >
> >I've been trying to figure out what may be stressing my fish... before I
> >start adding wide-spectrum antibiotics or anti-parasitics, I wanted to
rule
> >out stuff that is more prosaic than some insidious infection...
>
> Have you considered an ultraviolet unit before spending the bucks to
> dose you tank with antibiotics? That would be my next step, other
> than the moving GH figure that is being discussed in the thread. The
> moving PH I would attribute to the natural CO2 cycle of your tank.
> >
> James Ervin
> Remove SPAM to email me.

James Ervin

17-04-2003, 02:56 PM

On Wed, 16 Apr 2003 16:35:27 -0700, "linda mar" >
wrote:

>isn't ultraviolet sterilizer quite expensive? the antibiotics is about
>$4-$5/pack for the full treatment regimen.. I would think UV sterilizers are
>much more expensive...?

This depends on the size of your tank and the duration of your dose.
My experience is that for a larger tank and a dose over a period of
days, the $5 a pack pills end up costing me over $100.00. A UV
sterilizer will no doubt cost you more today, but you will have it for
a long time. Your call. Neither may help in this case and you may
be best just doing the water changes. Personally, I draw the line at
extreme measures. I will change the water, make the best chemistry
that I can and make the best environment that I can, but I stop at
that.

>I guess I better hold off on adding the CO2 injector (nutrafin) that I
>bought few weeks ago, in the expectation that I will finish using the
>flourish excel... CO2 injection will probably mess up the pH even more from
>the sounds of it..?

Yes and no. I would be reluctant to add any other variables until you
resolved what is happening to the water, but at this point you are
more or less free to try what seems like a good shot. There is some
discussion in this thread regarding a possible lack of buffering
capacity in your water, but all things appear right from the
descriptions. The PH swing seems like a normal daily plant effect of
CO2 depletion, but the GH swing has to be from some external source or
a bad measurement.

Some times you have to put the numbers aside and observer your tank
with all your senses. How does the water look, smell and tast? What
color is it, and what are the signs inside the tank telling you. I
know this can seem like BS, but your senses can tell the difference
between a sick tank and a sick fish.

James Ervin
Remove SPAM to email me.

Tiddleye

17-04-2003, 10:20 PM

As far as I am aware, the kh and ph are linked. When you raise a low ph, the
kh will increase as that is what buffers it.

Tiddleye
"linda mar" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Tiddleye,
>
> I've been getting more of a sof****er fish that can tolerate wide range of
> pH.. but pH drift is bad in either case.
>
> right now I have some whitecloud minnows, danios, siamege algae eaters and
> lace gouramis. all tolerate soft water and wide pH range (with a possible
> exception of the SAE.. but they're kinda new, so...)
>
> I am trying to keep it a sof****er tank.. eventually once the pH
stabilizes,
> I want to add some otos.. and they are soft water fish. (not to mention my
> tap is soft, so it's easier to keep it as soft water)
>
> GH is 6 right now, so I guess that is ok. I guess i'm looking for ways to
> increase KH without increasing pH... do you know of any?
>
> linda
>
> "Tiddleye" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hi Linda,
> >
> > You have very soft water and your fish are suffering from PH shock by
the
> > sound of it. I believe that your PH is unstable because your water has
no
> > buffering capacity so that when you do a ph check, there are to little
> > minerals (either acid or alkaline) to get an accurate reading. If you
want
> a
> > ph value of around 7.5 you need to increase your GH to about 6 and your
KH
> > to around 10. This will stabilize your waters ph value.
> > You didn't say what fish you have so I don't know what parameters you
> need.
> >
> > Regards
> > Tiddleye
> > "linda mar" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I've been trying to figure out what may be stressing my fish...
before
> I
> > > start adding wide-spectrum antibiotics or anti-parasitics, I wanted to
> > rule
> > > out stuff that is more prosaic than some insidious infection...
> > >
> > > so I've started to test pH more regularly (every day for the past 4
> days).
> > > it's a moderately planted 37G tank, nitrite, ammonia, nitrate is
always
> > > zero... temp ~75F.. UGF (2 aquaclear201 powerheadss) + HOT Magnum.
> > >
> > > unfortunately when I test, I sometimes get a color that doesn't match
> any
> > of
> > > the color on the pH chart (AP pH test kit). so one day, I got a
dead-on
> > > 7.0... then the next day, it was baby blue, but not as dark as a
7.6..
> > and
> > > it definitely was not 7.2 or 7.4 green-tinge. so.. what the heck is
this
> > > value?
> > >
> > > so my question is:
> > >
> > > 1. what would equate to a very diluted 7.6 color? is that considered
> 7.6?
> > > (basically, no green.. looks like the baby blue for the AP freshwater
> > > nitrite test kit when nitrite=0, but much much lighter than what the
> card
> > > shows for 7.6). I've tried very high pH (tap water).. and the color
> > turned
> > > very dark blue, like the 7.6 on the scale.. so..
> > >
> > > 2. can a pH drift from 7.0 to 7.6 in two days when you dont' do
> anything?
> > > can plants do this? (CO2 outdiffusion, etc) I've heard of water
turning
> > > acid, but not creeping to alkaline...
> > >
> > > 3. dKH=2, dGH=6... which is kinda funny.. it was 3, 3 last month.
just
> > > tested the the tap and is GH/KH=2... (I use the dechlor'ed tap when I
do
> > > partial water change...) so the GH drifted from 2 to 6 in the past
month
> > or
> > > so. is this indicative of something strange with the water? (oddly
> > enough,
> > > when I checked my LFS's water it was pH7.0, GH=6, KH=2, and we
probably
> > have
> > > the same water source as we are neighboring city.. I wonder if tap
> > drifted
> > > really high in GH one week when we both did water change?)
> > >
> > > 4. I've added flourish, flourish tabs, flourish iron and flourish
excel
> > in
> > > recommended doses over the past month. can that contribute to GH
creep
> > and
> > > pH instability?
> > >
> > > 5. should I even *attempt* to increase kH to stabilize the pH from
> > > fluctuating too much? (my idea is less is better for overall
> > maintenanceship
> > > of tanks... but if it is necessary..)
> > >
> > > 6. is there a better pH indicator that will show me better 7.0-8.0
> range?
> > > (my water is alkaline.. have yet to see it go below 7.0)
> > >
> > >
> > > linda
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

linda mar

17-04-2003, 11:44 PM

Hi,

> >isn't ultraviolet sterilizer quite expensive? the antibiotics is about
> >$4-$5/pack for the full treatment regimen.. I would think UV sterilizers
are
> >much more expensive...?
>
> This depends on the size of your tank and the duration of your dose.

oh. right...

> My experience is that for a larger tank and a dose over a period of
> days, the $5 a pack pills end up costing me over $100.00. A UV
> sterilizer will no doubt cost you more today, but you will have it for

tank is 37G (actual volume after gravel, etc is probably more like 30G).. so
the $5/pack will allow me to do the full treatment course, fortunately...
if things don't improve after the full treatment course, then doing it again
probably won't help :-P

> a long time. Your call. Neither may help in this case and you may
> be best just doing the water changes. Personally, I draw the line at
> extreme measures. I will change the water, make the best chemistry
> that I can and make the best environment that I can, but I stop at
> that.

hopefully I won't have to do anything drastic beyond reasonable... too
stressful for me and my fish...

> >I guess I better hold off on adding the CO2 injector (nutrafin) that I
> >bought few weeks ago, in the expectation that I will finish using the
> >flourish excel... CO2 injection will probably mess up the pH even more
from
> >the sounds of it..?
>
> Yes and no. I would be reluctant to add any other variables until you
> resolved what is happening to the water, but at this point you are
> more or less free to try what seems like a good shot. There is some
> discussion in this thread regarding a possible lack of buffering
> capacity in your water, but all things appear right from the
> descriptions. The PH swing seems like a normal daily plant effect of
> CO2 depletion, but the GH swing has to be from some external source or
> a bad measurement.

ok.

> Some times you have to put the numbers aside and observer your tank
> with all your senses. How does the water look, smell and tast? What
> color is it, and what are the signs inside the tank telling you. I
> know this can seem like BS, but your senses can tell the difference
> between a sick tank and a sick fish.

that's the thing. I have a pretty keen sense of smell.. so I can smell the
difference between tap, rain, tank, stale water... so to me, the tank
always has some musty smell (not necessarily bad.. just smells "lived-in".
I'm probably smelling some of the beneficial bacteria, etc). I don't think
I want to taste the water tho.. (yuck). Color is somewhat brownish tinge
due to the tannin (getting lighter than it used to be, though). some fish
looks bloated but rather healthy (can't tell if the bloat is from water
condition, over eating, illness, egg, etc), while others turn listless and
stops eating. this has been going on for a while (going listless and stop
eating, etc). so my sense is telling me *something* is going on with the
tank, but I'm not sure if it's just due to the pH fluctuations stressing the
fish, or there is some other infection going on that some fish are more
resistant to...

I think based on all the inputs I got, I'll do some increased-pace water
changes this week, monitor pH more carefully, and go from there... and
hopefully the listless fish will perk up a bit. (I've moved some of them
into quarantine tank to see what would happen if I try to treat the
fish--cleaner water, no plants, neutral pH, that sort of thing.. some are
perking up, but not all)

linda
>
>
>
>
>
> James Ervin
> Remove SPAM to email me.

LeighMo

17-04-2003, 11:44 PM

>This depends on the size of your tank and the duration of your dose.
>My experience is that for a larger tank and a dose over a period of
>days, the $5 a pack pills end up costing me over $100.00. A UV
>sterilizer will no doubt cost you more today, but you will have it for
>a long time.

I agree with this. A UV sterilizer can be the economical way to go for a large
tank. It won't cure *all* diseases, but it will take care of ich, which is,
IME, the most common problem.

Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

linda mar

18-04-2003, 12:44 AM

"LeighMo" > wrote in message
...

> Can you ask them? Or search online. Many localities have their water
reports
> on the net. Search on the name of your locality and "water report"

I do have the water report. I'll have to see what they add to make the pH
higher..

> And are you sure your KH test kit is working? Does adding baking soda
increase
> your KH?

I'll have to add baking soda and see what it does (have done it on pH
indicator, but not on KH). the test kit is new, so..

> >Tank is can be regarded "moderately low light". I have ~5400K 55W CF
(37G)
> >with the metallic reflector, sitting on top of a glass hood (Versatop).
>
> So it's 55 over a 37 gallon tank, plus natural light?

yes

> That isn't a lot of light, but some people have had pH problems even with
> moderate light. (Probably it depends on how many plants you have. Plus,
the
> first couple of weeks, PCF bulbs are extremely bright. They dim down a
lot
> after that.)

the bulb is 3 months old.. so I think (if I read all the FAQs correctly) I
have about another 8-9 months before I have to replace it...

> Try measuring the pH in the morning, just before the lights go on, in the
> middle of the photoperiod, then in the evening, when the lights go off.
If the
> pH is lowest in the morning, then rises all day to reach a peak at the end
of
> the "day," then the plants are the cause of your pH changes.

ok

> If the pH gradually rises over several days while the KH drops, again,
it's
> probably the plants.

KH is pretty similar to the tap.. so it seems like KH is stable..

> > the gravel I use is supposed to be inert
> >(50% epoxy coated, the other 50% is natural)
>
> The epoxy coated should be fine, but what's the natural gravel?

it looks like smooth rounded quartz-based stuff with other stuff in it (no
fizzing when I put it into vinegar, etc). natural rock color that they sell
at LFS (white quartz, rose quarts, brown, reddish brown...) sort of a
natural light-colored rounded pebbles. just not coated (the epoxy coated
one is more darker reddish browns).

linda

LeighMo

18-04-2003, 12:56 AM

>it looks like smooth rounded quartz-based stuff with other stuff in it

If it's quartz, it should be okay. But some of the gravels sold for fishtanks
are not inert. If they're meant for marine or African tanks, they can raise
the GH quite a bit.

>no
>fizzing when I put it into vinegar, etc).

Vinegar probably wouldn't be strong enough to get a reaction.

Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

Alex R

18-04-2003, 02:08 AM

"James Ervin" > wrote in message
...
> more or less free to try what seems like a good shot. There is some
> discussion in this thread regarding a possible lack of buffering
> capacity in your water, but all things appear right from the
> descriptions. The PH swing seems like a normal daily plant effect of
> CO2 depletion, but the GH swing has to be from some external source or
> a bad measurement.

Without CO2 injection, it's not normal to have any measurable daily pH
swing. The agitation should be enough to keep the dissolved and atmospheric
gases balanced. If there is any swing, it means that the plants are
stripping the water of CO2 to below equilibrium, and that's extremely low.
__
Alex

Alex R

18-04-2003, 02:08 AM

"linda mar" > wrote in message
...
>
> the tap when left out for over 24 hours, the pH reads about 7.8... we
think
> the municipal water department adds something to make the pH artificially
> high... the tank pH is lower than the tap (even after left out for
several
> days). probably because of the fish and the bog wood and stuff...

How do you know it's 7.8? Do you have a high-range pH test kit? I've never
heard of the water utility adding something other than bicarbonate to raise
the pH. Why add something else when bicarbonate would do the job?

Also, I think a large water change is the most beneficial thing you can do
right now. I wouldn't hold it off any longer.
__
Alex

linda mar

18-04-2003, 02:56 AM

> How do you know it's 7.8? Do you have a high-range pH test kit? I've never

yes. I do have the high-range pH test kit... (came with the freshwater
test kit).

> heard of the water utility adding something other than bicarbonate to
raise
> the pH. Why add something else when bicarbonate would do the job?

I don't know what they add. but whatever they add, it doesn't raise the KH
a whole lot.. (tap KH = 2-3.. probably 2.5). But apparently this is not
uncommon.. there was someone else (Massachusetts or Texas, i can't remember)
who had a very similar reading: GH/KH=2-3, pH=7.8-8.0... so...

> Also, I think a large water change is the most beneficial thing you can do
> right now. I wouldn't hold it off any longer.

this weekend is my big water change weekend.. (I usually do about 25% every
1.5weeks). I'll just do a lot larger than 25%...

linda

Robert Flory

18-04-2003, 02:56 AM

Try something around 10% HCl. If you don't know someone with a pool, try
the pharmacy. Most of them can mix a dropper bottle full if they are in the
mood, or at least they used to be able to do so. Or try scratching a bunch
of the pieces of gravel with a knife blade... quartz won't scratch easily,
anything softer could cause trouble. Limestone will scratch fairly easily.

Bob

"LeighMo" > wrote in message
...
> >it looks like smooth rounded quartz-based stuff with other stuff in it
>
> If it's quartz, it should be okay. But some of the gravels sold for
fishtanks
> are not inert. If they're meant for marine or African tanks, they can
raise
> the GH quite a bit.
>
> >no
> >fizzing when I put it into vinegar, etc).
>
> Vinegar probably wouldn't be strong enough to get a reaction.
>
>
>
> Leigh
>
> http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

Robert Flory

18-04-2003, 02:56 AM

"Alex R" > wrote in message
news:ilHna.524636$S_4.566380@rwcrnsc53...
>
> How do you know it's 7.8? Do you have a high-range pH test kit? I've never
> heard of the water utility adding something other than bicarbonate to
raise
> the pH. Why add something else when bicarbonate would do the job?
>
> Also, I think a large water change is the most beneficial thing you can do
> right now. I wouldn't hold it off any longer.
> __
> Alex
>
Mine adds sodium hydroxide..... I got that from the engineer that runs the
system.
I'm close to the treatment plant and mine comes out 8.9 pH.

Bob

linda mar

18-04-2003, 03:08 AM

> >it looks like smooth rounded quartz-based stuff with other stuff in it
>
> If it's quartz, it should be okay. But some of the gravels sold for
fishtanks
> are not inert. If they're meant for marine or African tanks, they can
raise
> the GH quite a bit.

No.. I don't think they were meant for marine or african tanks... more like
river gravel/pebble.. I dont have the bag with me anymore (bought it 4-5mo
ago), but it sort of looks like quartz, quartz coglomerate, granite-type
materials, grounded smooth.

> >no
> >fizzing when I put it into vinegar, etc).
>
> Vinegar probably wouldn't be strong enough to get a reaction.

hmm.. all the reference books I read said that if it has any lime, etc, in
it, vinegar will make it bubble... I suppose I can "steal" some
concentrated acetic acid from the lab and take it home and try it, but
either way, I'm pretty certain the gravel is inert. (if it was gravel
leeching GH-elements, it doesn't explain why the GH went up in the past 2-4
weeks while it was stable during the first 12-14 weeks...)

linda
>
>
>
> Leigh
>
> http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

linda mar

18-04-2003, 03:44 AM

wow. 8.9? that's pretty harsh!!! do you have to treat your tap for pH
before you water change, or do you just have lots of fish that can tolerate
very high pH? if you do, what do you use to treat your tap for pH?

NaOH, eh? hm... makes sense.. (cheap, available in pellet form..)

linda

"Robert Flory" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Alex R" > wrote in message
> news:ilHna.524636$S_4.566380@rwcrnsc53...
> >
> > How do you know it's 7.8? Do you have a high-range pH test kit? I've
never
> > heard of the water utility adding something other than bicarbonate to
> raise
> > the pH. Why add something else when bicarbonate would do the job?
> >
> > Also, I think a large water change is the most beneficial thing you can
do
> > right now. I wouldn't hold it off any longer.
> > __
> > Alex
> >
> Mine adds sodium hydroxide..... I got that from the engineer that runs the
> system.
> I'm close to the treatment plant and mine comes out 8.9 pH.
>
>
> Bob
>
>

linda mar

18-04-2003, 03:44 AM

ok. will get hold of strong acid...

linda

"Robert Flory" > wrote in message
. com...
> Try something around 10% HCl. If you don't know someone with a pool, try
> the pharmacy. Most of them can mix a dropper bottle full if they are in
the
> mood, or at least they used to be able to do so. Or try scratching a bunch
> of the pieces of gravel with a knife blade... quartz won't scratch easily,
> anything softer could cause trouble. Limestone will scratch fairly
easily.
>
> Bob
>
> "LeighMo" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >it looks like smooth rounded quartz-based stuff with other stuff in it
> >
> > If it's quartz, it should be okay. But some of the gravels sold for
> fishtanks
> > are not inert. If they're meant for marine or African tanks, they can
> raise
> > the GH quite a bit.
> >
> > >no
> > >fizzing when I put it into vinegar, etc).
> >
> > Vinegar probably wouldn't be strong enough to get a reaction.
> >
> >
> >
> > Leigh
> >
> > http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/
>
>

Robert Flory

18-04-2003, 07:08 PM

"linda mar" > wrote in message
...
> wow. 8.9? that's pretty harsh!!! do you have to treat your tap for pH
> before you water change, or do you just have lots of fish that can
tolerate
> very high pH? if you do, what do you use to treat your tap for pH?
>
> NaOH, eh? hm... makes sense.. (cheap, available in pellet form..)
>
> linda
>

I use DO water for my angels (55 gallon)..... occasionally add tap water to
add trace minerals other than what fertilizers add. The other two tanks, my
wife's over populated platy tank (29 gallon) gets the water straight as does
the grandkids (10 gallon) guppy tank. I've never really checked after
letting the water age, but in the platy tank the pH rise during water change
is minor unless one does a major change. Both the platy and guppy tank run
in the 7.6 range. I've never been able to keep ottos in either tank, though
my stripped rubber nosed plecos do well.

Nasty stuff NaOH. I recall you mentioned being a chemist... I'm familiar
with it from the oil fields where it was used for pH control in freshwater
drilling mud....to control bacterial blooms. People were always getting
careless and getting burned.

They also use chloramines, which used to cause all sorts of interesting
nitrite spikes with a major a water change. I haven't checked since I added
lots of plants and CO2 to the tanks.

Bob