How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?

[Phyllis and Jim]

Our lilies have jumped the pots and as THRIVING on the pond floor. In
fact, they do better there than in the pots. But they are not
flowering a whole lot. Any ideas about fertilizing them? Or
otherwise makeing them bloom?

Jim

[Stephen Henning]

"Phyllis and Jim" > wrote:

> Our lilies have jumped the pots and as THRIVING on the pond floor. In
> fact, they do better there than in the pots. But they are not
> flowering a whole lot. Any ideas about fertilizing them? Or
> otherwise makeing them bloom?

I had this problem. I had one water lily that in about 30 years had
taken over our entire pond which is about 15' x 45'. A couple years ago
in the fall I took the entire lily tuber out. I broke it into healthy
sections about 8" to 12" long with crowns. Much had to be thrown away
because it had soft spots. I then planted 12 pieces in pots and am
tending them to keep them in the pots. I will add the once-a-year
fertilizer spikes in May. They are doing very well in pots and are
blooming their heads off.
--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
18,000 gallon (17'x 47'x 2-4') lily pond garden in Zone 6
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA

[Phyllis and Jim]

They are doing very well in pots and are
> blooming their heads off.

How did they do when they were on the loose? Lots of blooms to go
with the leaves?

I will be very interested in how they do with your fertilizer!

Jim

[Gail Futoran]

"Phyllis and Jim" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> They are doing very well in pots and are
>> blooming their heads off.
>
> How did they do when they were on the loose? Lots of blooms to go
> with the leaves?
>
> I will be very interested in how they do with your fertilizer!
>
> Jim

I did a mini-experiment (read: too lazy
to repot a large hardy lily) a few weeks
ago. The potted lily in one of my above-
ground ponds was growing way out of
the container (a dishpan). I divided it
(don't ask how...), moved the pot with
about half the lily to another container,
left the free-floating (?) remains in the
pond in which it had been growing. Large
roots sticking out and about. So far it
continues to put out new leaves. Still a
bit cool for flowers.

I stuck one of those season-long fert
sticks in the midst of the mass of roots
which might work or might not.

IIRC the original hardy lily (now in
three different ponds) came from a local
nursery where it was just hanging around
a metal stocktank, not even potted.

I'm also a "minimalist" gardener - water
or soil. I'll report on what happens to my
mutilated water lily.

Gail
near San Antonio TX Zone 8 USA

[Phyllis and Jim]

Hi Gail,

Nice to see you here.

I look forward to hearing about your result.

I was thinking about mine, it now covers about a 4 x 6 area. Might be
hard to fertilize that much!

I haven't approached it as it is entwining a bunch of milk crates that
used to hold up the lily dishpans.

Jim

[Stephen Henning]

"Phyllis and Jim" > wrote:

> How did they do when they were on the loose? Lots of blooms to go
> with the leaves?

They had fewer blooms when the tuber ran all over the pond than when I
just had 12 pots. I didn't fertilize the pots and I still got blooms.
This year will be the first time I fertilized since I just found the
once per year spikes.

> I will be very interested in how they do with your fertilizer!

I am interested also. The spikes came in the mail yesterday, but I am
waiting until the pond warms up a little before I put the spikes in.
Our last killing frost date is May 15.
--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
18,000 gallon (17'x 47'x 2-4') lily pond garden in Zone 6
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA

[~ jan[_2_]]

On Mon, 2 Apr 2007 23:09:11 CST, "Gail Futoran"
> wrote:

>I'm also a "minimalist" gardener - water
>or soil. I'll report on what happens to my
>mutilated water lily.

I'm working real hard towards this type of gardening. ;-)

As in my big flower pots out by the front door, instead of the usual soil
and annuals, I put water in them and my iris that winter in the koi ponds.
When the cannas take their place in the koi ponds, the iris go in these
pots with a small floating island that holds plants that can handle soggy
soil. We have drippers set up to keep the water level up. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State

[Altum[_3_]]

Phyllis and Jim wrote:
> Our lilies have jumped the pots and as THRIVING on the pond floor. In
> fact, they do better there than in the pots. But they are not
> flowering a whole lot. Any ideas about fertilizing them? Or
> otherwise makeing them bloom?

I run my tiny pond much like an aquarium. I fertilize the water with
the same mix of bulk potassium nitrate, potassium phosphate, potassium
sulfate, and hydroponic trace element/iron fertilizer that I use in the
indoor tanks. Phosphate in the water column makes the WH and canna
lilies bloom like crazy. I don't see why it wouldn't do the same for a
bare-root lily.

--Altum

--
My other fish and pond forum is:
http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[Hal[_1_]]

On Tue, 3 Apr 2007 17:05:18 CST, Altum >
wrote:

>I run my tiny pond much like an aquarium. I fertilize the water with
>the same mix of bulk potassium nitrate, potassium phosphate, potassium
>sulfate, and hydroponic trace element/iron fertilizer that I use in the
>indoor tanks. Phosphate in the water column makes the WH and canna
>lilies bloom like crazy. I don't see why it wouldn't do the same for a
>bare-root lily.

That's interesting.

It does sound suspiciously like it might contain the same stuff as a
numbered soluble fertilizer like 15-30-15, that I find at Walmart. I
don't know where these chemicals come from, or if they are in
combination with potassium but my understanding is they are simply
nitrates, phosphates and potassium.

What is the difference in using a mix of bulk potassium nitrate,
potassium phosphate, potassium sulfate? Sounds like potassium comes
with everything and I wonder why, and if it works better?

Regards,

Hal

[Reel McKoi[_6_]]

"Hal" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 3 Apr 2007 17:05:18 CST, Altum >
> wrote:
>
>>I run my tiny pond much like an aquarium. I fertilize the water with
>>the same mix of bulk potassium nitrate, potassium phosphate, potassium
>>sulfate, and hydroponic trace element/iron fertilizer that I use in the
>>indoor tanks. Phosphate in the water column makes the WH and canna
>>lilies bloom like crazy. I don't see why it wouldn't do the same for a
>>bare-root lily.
>
> That's interesting.
>
> It does sound suspiciously like it might contain the same stuff as a
> numbered soluble fertilizer like 15-30-15, that I find at Walmart. I
> don't know where these chemicals come from, or if they are in
> combination with potassium but my understanding is they are simply
> nitrates, phosphates and potassium.

Some come with trace elements. I'm experimenting with Miracle-Grow and
products like it right now. It's not toxic to fish that I can see. The
5-10-5 for gardens works well in the water I grow pond plants in. It
doesn't seem to bother the frogs but has no trace elements listed on the
bags. I think I'll add MG next time and see if there's a difference.

> What is the difference in using a mix of bulk potassium nitrate,
> potassium phosphate, potassium sulfate? Sounds like potassium comes
> with everything and I wonder why, and if it works better?
>
> Regards,
>
> Hal
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
ISP: Hughes.net
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö>

>

[Altum[_3_]]

Hal wrote:
> On Tue, 3 Apr 2007 17:05:18 CST, Altum >
> wrote:
>
>> I run my tiny pond much like an aquarium. I fertilize the water with
>> the same mix of bulk potassium nitrate, potassium phosphate, potassium
>> sulfate, and hydroponic trace element/iron fertilizer that I use in the
>> indoor tanks. Phosphate in the water column makes the WH and canna
>> lilies bloom like crazy. I don't see why it wouldn't do the same for a
>> bare-root lily.
>
> That's interesting.

Yeah. I'm really into planted aquaria and someone here advised me to
treat my little pond/water garden the same way. Imagine my surprise the
first time I added my aquarium fertilizer with the phosphate and every
single WH bloomed!

> It does sound suspiciously like it might contain the same stuff as a
> numbered soluble fertilizer like 15-30-15, that I find at Walmart. I
> don't know where these chemicals come from, or if they are in
> combination with potassium but my understanding is they are simply
> nitrates, phosphates and potassium.

The stuff at Walmart generally contains ammonium nitrate. The first
number in the N-P-K fertilizer ratio isn't nitrate, but nitrogen.
Ammonium nitrate is the most common source of it for fertilizer. You
can get away with burying a fertilizer spike with some ammonium nitrate
deep in a pot, but of course you wouldn't want to add ammonium to a pond
with fish. If you find a brand without any ammonium, I'm all ears!

> What is the difference in using a mix of bulk potassium nitrate,
> potassium phosphate, potassium sulfate? Sounds like potassium comes
> with everything and I wonder why, and if it works better?

I use the bulk chemicals because 1) they're wonderfully cheap and 2) I
can tailor the mix to my individual tanks and pond depending on my water
change schedule and fish load.

The nitrate and phosphate have the potassium counterion (K, potash)
because aquatic and pond plants need a lot of it. Potassium is the K in
the N-P-K number. The chemicals are set up avoid adding undesirable
sodium and chloride to the water. Some people don't even need potassium
sulfate when they use potassium nitrate and potassium phosphate. I find
my plants do better with some extra potash so I add the potassium sulfate.

BTW, people in sof****er areas also add calcium and magnesium to the
fertilizer. My water is hard so I don't worry about it. I doubt it's
too much of a problem in most ponds since everyone tends to add coral
and/or oyster shells to harden the water a little for koi and goldies
anyway.

I saw mention of algae blooms with water column fertilizers. My 3
half-barrel pond has a LOT of plants and very few fish compared to a
typical formal koi pond - it's practically a veggie filter. LOL! If I
don't fertilize the water, the WH goes reddish, chlorotic, and straggly
and the algae grows like crazy. When I fertilize well, the WH gets lush
and green, the cannas bloom, and algae is much less troublesome.

I would expect a lot more algae bloom problems in systems with more fish
and fewer plants, since there are often traces of ammonia in the water
until it passes through the filter. Ammonia + iron + sunlight = instant
algae.

--Altum

--
My other fish and pond forum is:
http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[Stephen Henning]

In article >,
Hal > wrote:

> What is the difference in using a mix of bulk potassium nitrate,
> potassium phosphate, potassium sulfate? Sounds like potassium comes
> with everything and I wonder why, and if it works better?

Also consider:

ammonium nitrate
ammonium phosphate
ammonium sulfate
--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
18,000 gallon (17'x 47'x 2-4') lily pond garden in Zone 6
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA

[info@relaxingdecor.com]

On Apr 2, 9:38 am, "Phyllis and Jim" >
wrote:
> Our lilies have jumped the pots and as THRIVING on thepondfloor. In
> fact, they do better there than in the pots. But they are not
> flowering a whole lot. Any ideas about fertilizing them? Or
> otherwise makeing them bloom?
>
> Jim

Jim now that your lilies are in the ground as they should be your
plants will not only thrive they should flower with no fertilizer at
all. You fish waste and the such is all the lily needs to stretch its
roots. In fact if you dont fertilize, it should break down the waste
quicker. Most lilies need sun light to bloom. also if you just
transplanted it may take a while longer or miss a cycle to bloom.

Peter
http://www.relaxingdecor.com

[Altum[_3_]]

Stephen Henning wrote:
> In article >,
> Hal > wrote:
>
>> What is the difference in using a mix of bulk potassium nitrate,
>> potassium phosphate, potassium sulfate? Sounds like potassium comes
>> with everything and I wonder why, and if it works better?
>
> Also consider:
>
> ammonium nitrate
> ammonium phosphate
> ammonium sulfate

Umm... I was talking about fertilizing water in a pond where there are
live fish. You don't add ammonium to the water.

--
My other fish and pond forum is:
http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[info@relaxingdecor.com]

On Apr 4, 4:57 pm, "Reel McKoi" > wrote:
> "Hal" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > On Tue, 3 Apr 2007 17:05:18 CST, Altum >
> > wrote:
>
> >>I run my tinypondmuch like an aquarium. I fertilize the water with
> >>the same mix of bulk potassium nitrate, potassium phosphate, potassium
> >>sulfate, and hydroponic trace element/iron fertilizer that I use in the
> >>indoor tanks. Phosphate in the water column makes the WH and canna
> >>lilies bloom like crazy. I don't see why it wouldn't do the same for a
> >>bare-root lily.
>
> > That's interesting.
>
> > It does sound suspiciously like it might contain the same stuff as a
> > numbered soluble fertilizer like 15-30-15, that I find at Walmart. I
> > don't know where these chemicals come from, or if they are in
> > combination with potassium but my understanding is they are simply
> > nitrates, phosphates and potassium.
>
> Some come with trace elements. I'm experimenting with Miracle-Grow and
> products like it right now. It's not toxic to fish that I can see. The
> 5-10-5 for gardens works well in the water I growpondplants in. It
> doesn't seem to bother the frogs but has no trace elements listed on the
> bags. I think I'll add MG next time and see if there's a difference.
>
> > What is the difference in using a mix of bulk potassium nitrate,
> > potassium phosphate, potassium sulfate? Sounds like potassium comes
> > with everything and I wonder why, and if it works better?
>
> > Regards,
>
> > Hal
>
> --
>
> RM....
> Frugal ponding since 1995.
> rec.ponder since late 1996.
> MyPond& Aquarium Pages:http://tinyurl.com/9do58
> Zone 6. Middle TN USA
> ISP: Hughes.net
> ~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö>
>
>

i would say the time release capsules that you normally use for plants
like impatients and wild flower seeds works and fish ignore it.
Peter
http://www.relaxingdecor.com

[Altum[_3_]]

Reel McKoi wrote:
>
> "Hal" > wrote in message

>> It does sound suspiciously like it might contain the same stuff as a
>> numbered soluble fertilizer like 15-30-15, that I find at Walmart. I
>> don't know where these chemicals come from, or if they are in
>> combination with potassium but my understanding is they are simply
>> nitrates, phosphates and potassium.
>
> Some come with trace elements. I'm experimenting with Miracle-Grow and
> products like it right now. It's not toxic to fish that I can see. The
> 5-10-5 for gardens works well in the water I grow pond plants in. It
> doesn't seem to bother the frogs but has no trace elements listed on the
> bags. I think I'll add MG next time and see if there's a difference.

How can something that contains ammonia not be toxic to fish??? Ack.
Even tiny amounts of ammonia in the water can stress fish and affect
their health and growth, whether or not you see an immediate toxic effect.

--Altum

--
My other fish and pond forum is:
http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[Phyllis and Jim]

Peter,

The lilies are on the bottom, on bare cement. They do catch fish
waste.

I am interested in how they will or won't bloom.,

Jim

[Derek Broughton]

Altum wrote:

> How can something that contains ammonia not be toxic to fish???

The fertilizers mentioned contain ammonium, not ammonia. Really close, but
_much_ less toxic.

> Ack.
> Even tiny amounts of ammonia in the water can stress fish and affect
> their health and growth, whether or not you see an immediate toxic effect.

But I tend to agree with you, anyway. I haven't fertilized since my very
early water-gardening days, and I get more blooms than ever.
--
derek
- Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated
moderators.

[drsolo]

how deep are the lilies? they dont like it deep. the lower they are the
more energy to get leaves and flowers to surface. also, blooms at the
warmer surface water, earlier and more. Ingrid

[Derek Broughton]

drsolo wrote:

> how deep are the lilies? they dont like it deep.

How deep would you consider deep? Five feet is not too deep for most
non-dwarf hardy lilies.

> the lower they are the
> more energy to get leaves and flowers to surface. also, blooms at the
> warmer surface water, earlier and more. Ingrid

Not in my experience. I start all my lilies shallow, and sink them as the
leaves reach the surface. Once they have a few pads on the surface, they
don't have a problem getting enough energy to push more, and they are able
to spread out. My deep lilies always produce more blooms than my shallow
ones.
--
derek
- Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated
moderators.

[Hal[_1_]]

On Wed, 4 Apr 2007 15:17:54 CST, Altum >
wrote:

>The stuff at Walmart generally contains ammonium nitrate. The first
>number in the N-P-K fertilizer ratio isn't nitrate, but nitrogen.
>Ammonium nitrate is the most common source of it for fertilizer. You
>can get away with burying a fertilizer spike with some ammonium nitrate
>deep in a pot, but of course you wouldn't want to add ammonium to a pond
>with fish. If you find a brand without any ammonium, I'm all ears!
>
I can't, but didn't know there was such a thing either.

I must say (Because I feel pretty stupid right now.) that I've never
found an ammonia reading in my pond except once some years ago when
the pond crashed (Because I was busy with other things, not due to
fertilizer.) and I started over again. I've used fertilizers that I
didn't think of as containing ammonia, but in small amounts, and in
ignorance. Thanks for pointing that out.

>> What is the difference in using a mix of bulk potassium nitrate,
>> potassium phosphate, potassium sulfate? Sounds like potassium comes
>> with everything and I wonder why, and if it works better?
>
>I use the bulk chemicals because 1) they're wonderfully cheap and 2) I
>can tailor the mix to my individual tanks and pond depending on my water
>change schedule and fish load.
>
>The nitrate and phosphate have the potassium counterion (K, potash)
>because aquatic and pond plants need a lot of it. Potassium is the K in
>the N-P-K number. The chemicals are set up avoid adding undesirable
>sodium and chloride to the water. Some people don't even need potassium
>sulfate when they use potassium nitrate and potassium phosphate. I find
>my plants do better with some extra potash so I add the potassium sulfate.
>
.................................................. .............Cut to
Soft water and Calcium
>BTW, people in sof****er areas also add calcium and magnesium to the
>fertilizer. My water is hard so I don't worry about it. I doubt it's
>too much of a problem in most ponds since everyone tends to add coral
>and/or oyster shells to harden the water a little for koi and goldies
>anyway.
........................End Cut
>
>I saw mention of algae blooms with water column fertilizers. My 3
>half-barrel pond has a LOT of plants and very few fish compared to a
>typical formal koi pond - it's practically a veggie filter. LOL! If I
>don't fertilize the water, the WH goes reddish, chlorotic, and straggly
>and the algae grows like crazy. When I fertilize well, the WH gets lush
>and green, the cannas bloom, and algae is much less troublesome.
>
>I would expect a lot more algae bloom problems in systems with more fish
>and fewer plants, since there are often traces of ammonia in the water
>until it passes through the filter. Ammonia + iron + sunlight = instant
>algae.

You have pointed out something I've missed and must be ignored in many
gardening circles, since breaking down ammonia has long been a source
of fertilizer, but it begs the question where do you obtain these bulk
chemicals. I've never looked for them and doubt my gardening center
carries them, but would appreciate your help as to where to look.

Your help is greatly appreciated,

Hal

[Reel McKoi[_6_]]

"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...

<brevity snip>

> But I tend to agree with you, anyway. I haven't fertilized since my very
> early water-gardening days, and I get more blooms than ever.
===============================
This fascinates me and has since you first mentioned it. Your lilies are
feeding on something. How often do you clean your pond? I mean pump it out
and refill it so heavy mulm doesn't collect on the bottom. Is it just fish
waste feeding the lilies or is there runoff from the lawn? Are there other
plants in your pond or just the lilies? The "fertilizer" fueling them has
to be coming from somewhere.
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
ISP: Hughes.net
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö>

[Phyllis and Jim]

On Apr 5, 10:36 am, Derek Broughton > wrote:
> drsolo wrote:
> > how deep are the lilies? they dont like it deep.
>
> How deep would you consider deep? Five feet is not too deep for most
> non-dwarf hardy lilies.
>
> > the lower they are the
> > more energy to get leaves and flowers to surface. also, blooms at the
> > warmer surface water, earlier and more. Ingrid
>
> Not in my experience. I start all my lilies shallow, and sink them as the
> leaves reach the surface. Once they have a few pads on the surface, they
> don't have a problem getting enough energy to push more, and they are able
> to spread out. My deep lilies always produce more blooms than my shallow
> ones.
> --
> derek
> - Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated
> moderators.

Our top lillies are 2" under the surface. The deep ones are 2' down.
We have betweens at about a foot. All have done well, but I see the
deeper ones (on cement) as doing better. The potted ones are in stone
or dirt. Overall, however, I don't think they are flowering as much
as they might. That is why I asked about fertilizing the on-cement
ones.

Jim

[Kurt[_2_]]

In article >,
Derek Broughton > wrote:

> drsolo wrote:
>
> > how deep are the lilies? they dont like it deep.
>
> How deep would you consider deep? Five feet is not too deep for most
> non-dwarf hardy lilies.
>
> > the lower they are the
> > more energy to get leaves and flowers to surface. also, blooms at the
> > warmer surface water, earlier and more. Ingrid
>
> Not in my experience. I start all my lilies shallow, and sink them as the
> leaves reach the surface. Once they have a few pads on the surface, they
> don't have a problem getting enough energy to push more, and they are able
> to spread out. My deep lilies always produce more blooms than my shallow
> ones.

How deep is deep?

--
To reply by email, remove the word "space"

[Stephen Henning]

> > Hal > wrote:
> >> What is the difference in using a mix of bulk potassium nitrate,
> >> potassium phosphate, potassium sulfate? Sounds like potassium comes
> >> with everything and I wonder why, and if it works better?

> Stephen Henning wrote:
> > Also consider:
> > ammonium nitrate
> > ammonium phosphate
> > ammonium sulfate

Altum > wrote:
> Umm... I was talking about fertilizing water in a pond where there are
> live fish. You don't add ammonium to the water.
> How can something that contains ammonia not be toxic to fish??? Ack.
> Even tiny amounts of ammonia in the water can stress fish and affect
> their health and growth, whether or not you see an immediate toxic effect.

Ammonium compounds and Ammonia are two different things just as Salt
(sodium chloride), Sodium and Chlorine are very different things.
Ammonia is NH3 a very caustic gas that produces NH4OH a caustic alkali.
Ammonium compounds are salts frequently used as fertilzers.

Looking at water lily fertilizers we find that many contain ammonium
compounds. For example:

CrystalClear Aquatic Plant Fertilizer: 5.5% nitrogen from Ammonium
Phosphate.

Tetra FloraPride Aquatic Plant Fertilizer: Ammonium Heptamolybdate.

Most water lily fertilizers are designed to not contaminate the pond
with nitrates and phosphates. And the bacterial breakdown of urea
creates ammonia, so most fertilizers do actually use ammonium compounds.
--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
18,000 gallon (17'x 47'x 2-4') lily pond garden in Zone 6
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA

[drsolo]

in the frozen tundra of zone 5 (going on 6 due to global warming) more than
18" -24" is too deep. it takes too much energy and too long to bloom as it
is. Ingrid

[~ jan[_2_]]

On Thu, 5 Apr 2007 11:58:25 CST, "drsolo" > wrote:

>in the frozen tundra of zone 5 (going on 6 due to global warming) more than
>18" -24" is too deep. it takes too much energy and too long to bloom as it
>is. Ingrid

I wonder though, if lily type has a lot to do with production? When I moved
my lilies from 6-8" from the surface down to 20" some (most) have performed
better, and others have not. Flowers seemed bigger.

I put in the lily pond because the koi pond was so shady, but now my
neighbor's trees (evergreen) have grown to the point of also causing a lot
shade there. Only way I can win is to move. :-( ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

[Derek Broughton]

drsolo wrote:

> in the frozen tundra of zone 5 (going on 6 due to global warming) more
> than
> 18" -24" is too deep. it takes too much energy and too long to bloom as
> it is. Ingrid

I disagree, and my Ontario pond proves it. It's a little warmer than
Wisconsin, but not much.
--
derek
- Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated
moderators.

[Derek Broughton]

Reel McKoi wrote:

>
> "Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> <brevity snip>
>
>> But I tend to agree with you, anyway. I haven't fertilized since my very
>> early water-gardening days, and I get more blooms than ever.
> ===============================
> This fascinates me and has since you first mentioned it. Your lilies are
> feeding on something. How often do you clean your pond?
> I mean pump it out and refill it

Ye gods! I wouldn't dream of doing that. There's a pump on the bottom that
pumps the mulm up into the veggie filter. Pretty well all the maintenance
is in the veggie filter.

> Is it just fish
> waste feeding the lilies or is there runoff from the lawn?

The pond was built by digging a hole, and building up the sides with the
dirt from the hole, so there's no possibility of runoff from the lawn (and
I don't fertilize, anyway). There's some blown dirt - its on the edge of a
farm, and come spring the ice is usually pretty dirty. However, very few
trees, so no leaf debris.

> Are there other plants in your pond or just the lilies?

Not many. Anacharis, parrot feather and irises. A number of bog plants in
the bog.

> The "fertilizer" fueling them has to be coming from somewhere.

Fish, and bare-root lilies to maximize their ability to extract nutrients
from the water.
--
derek
- Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated
moderators.

[Derek Broughton]

Kurt wrote:

> In article >,
> Derek Broughton > wrote:
>
>> drsolo wrote:
>>
>> > how deep are the lilies? they dont like it deep.
>>
>> How deep would you consider deep? Five feet is not too deep for most
>> non-dwarf hardy lilies.
>>
>> > the lower they are the
>> > more energy to get leaves and flowers to surface. also, blooms at the
>> > warmer surface water, earlier and more. Ingrid
>>
>> Not in my experience. I start all my lilies shallow, and sink them as
>> the leaves reach the surface. Once they have a few pads on the surface,
>> they don't have a problem getting enough energy to push more, and they
>> are able
>> to spread out. My deep lilies always produce more blooms than my shallow
>> ones.
>
> How deep is deep?

LOL. I thought I'd said :-) That pond is 5' at the deep end, and that's
where the best lilies are.
--
derek
- Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated
moderators.

[Altum[_3_]]

Derek Broughton wrote:
> Altum wrote:
>
>> How can something that contains ammonia not be toxic to fish???
>
> The fertilizers mentioned contain ammonium, not ammonia. Really close, but
> _much_ less toxic.

Ammonium is just the protonated salt form of ammonia.

NH4+ <--> NH3 + H+

Put it in alkaline water (as in most ponds) and it promptly loses a
proton and becomes ammonia.

--
My other fish and pond forum is:
http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[Altum[_3_]]

Hal wrote:

> You have pointed out something I've missed and must be ignored in many
> gardening circles, since breaking down ammonia has long been a source
> of fertilizer, but it begs the question where do you obtain these bulk
> chemicals. I've never looked for them and doubt my gardening center
> carries them, but would appreciate your help as to where to look.

Ammonium nitrate is an awesome fertilizer for anything but a body of
water containing fish - that's why most gardeners don't look any
further. Even with fish, your biofilter SHOULD convert trace amounts of
ammonium you add. It's just so darned toxic until it's converted that I
prefer to avoid it entirely.

I buy pound quantities of bulk fertilizers from
http://www.aquariumfertilizer.com/. My pond is 3 half-barrels (only
about 90 gallons), so a pound of each chemical has lasted me for two
years and I've still got some left. The salts are so cheap that
shipping them often costs more than the chemicals.

For potassium nitrate (KNO3) locally, look for stump remover at the
hardware store. If you've got a local chemical supplier, you can get
all the salts there. You may get an interesting expression if you ask
for bulk potassium nitrate - it's common name is saltpetre and it makes
nice explosives and fireworks. ;-) Check hydroponic suppliers for good
iron/trace element fertilizers. Some also have the bulk salts.

--
My other fish and pond forum is:
http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[Reel McKoi[_6_]]

"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
> Reel McKoi wrote:
>
>>
>> "Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>> <brevity snip>
>>
>>> But I tend to agree with you, anyway. I haven't fertilized since my
>>> very
>>> early water-gardening days, and I get more blooms than ever.
>> ===============================
>> This fascinates me and has since you first mentioned it. Your lilies are
>> feeding on something. How often do you clean your pond?
>> I mean pump it out and refill it
>
> Ye gods! I wouldn't dream of doing that. There's a pump on the bottom
> that
> pumps the mulm up into the veggie filter. Pretty well all the maintenance
> is in the veggie filter.

The bottom of my rubber lined ponds have a very gradual slope where I was
told mulm, if any, would collect. But that's not the case. In the
troublesome pond (which is actually 880g) the mulm collects all over the
bottom and shelves. The pump, at the lowest point and in a prefilter of 2
black plant baskets clam-shelled together, only sucks in what's real close
and pumps it to the filter. The mulm around it is left undisturbed. We
have to drain them down every year to remove the fry. Since we have only a
few inches of water left, we hose down the sides and use a shop vac to get
the last of the dark green odorless "glop" mulm from the bottom. This glop
makes excellent fertalizer for the flowers around the pond.

>> Is it just fish
>> waste feeding the lilies or is there runoff from the lawn?
>
> The pond was built by digging a hole, and building up the sides with the
> dirt from the hole, so there's no possibility of runoff from the lawn (and
> I don't fertilize, anyway). There's some blown dirt - its on the edge of
> a
> farm, and come spring the ice is usually pretty dirty. However, very few
> trees, so no leaf debris.
>
>> Are there other plants in your pond or just the lilies?
>
> Not many. Anacharis, parrot feather and irises. A number of bog plants
> in
> the bog.
>
>> The "fertilizer" fueling them has to be coming from somewhere.
>
> Fish, and bare-root lilies to maximize their ability to extract nutrients
> from the water.

How do you remove the unwanted fry? Sorry but I don't remember why kind of
fish you're keeping.

--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
ISP: Hughes.net
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö>

[Altum[_3_]]

Stephen Henning wrote:

> Ammonium compounds and Ammonia are two different things just as Salt
> (sodium chloride), Sodium and Chlorine are very different things.
> Ammonia is NH3 a very caustic gas that produces NH4OH a caustic alkali.
> Ammonium compounds are salts frequently used as fertilzers.

They're only different until you dissolve them in water. Then there is
a pH dependent chemical equilibrium between ammonia and ammonium.

NH4+ (ammonium) <--> NH3 (ammonia) + H+ (protons)

At the 7.5-8.0 pH ranges typical of koi ponds, the ammonia, ammonium, or
whatever you want to call it is partly in the toxic NH3 form.

> Looking at water lily fertilizers we find that many contain ammonium
> compounds. For example:
>
> CrystalClear Aquatic Plant Fertilizer: 5.5% nitrogen from Ammonium
> Phosphate.
>
> Tetra FloraPride Aquatic Plant Fertilizer: Ammonium Heptamolybdate.
>
> Most water lily fertilizers are designed to not contaminate the pond
> with nitrates and phosphates. And the bacterial breakdown of urea
> creates ammonia, so most fertilizers do actually use ammonium compounds.

Just because you can buy something at a pet or garden store doesn't mean
it's good for fish. Most fishkeepers underestimate the extraordinary
toxicity of ammonia to aquatic life. Pure nitrate, on the other hand,
is easily tolerated by fish in the ranges appreciated by plants.

Also, this thread started with bare-root lilies. If the pond isn't
"contaminated" with nitrates and phosphates, the lilies will starve.

--
My other fish and pond forum is:
http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[Reel McKoi[_6_]]

"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
> LOL. I thought I'd said :-) That pond is 5' at the deep end, and that's
> where the best lilies are.
=========================
Maybe it's the summer heat here but my lilies do best at 18" (pot top to
water surface). I'm in zone 6. Long hot summers and short but often cold
winters.

What kind of water lilies are they to thrive in such deep water? Are they
native to where you live or the ones you can pick up at Lowe's and places
like Wally World?
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
ISP: Hughes.net
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö>

[Stephen Henning]

Altum > wrote:

> Ammonium is just the protonated salt form of ammonia.
>
> NH4+ <--> NH3 + H+
>
> Put it in alkaline water (as in most ponds) and it promptly loses a
> proton and becomes ammonia.

Actually it becomes ammonium hydroxide. It may never become ammonia.
Ammonium hydroxide is alkaline by definition. The fact that the
ammonium is in salt form keeps the ammonium hydroxide from becoming very
strong. That is what chemists call buffering. If what you said was
true, all bottles of household ammonium hydroxide would explode since
ammonium hydroxide is alkaline water and ammonia is a gas.

Successful water lily food manufacturers use ammonium compounds:

The Once-A-Year Aquatic-Spikes from AgSafe (a div. of AgriTab Corp.,
Clearfield UT) contain:

Ureaform, Ammonium Phosphate, Potassium Nitrate, Potassium Sulfate,
Calcium Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Iron Sucrate, Magnesium Sucrate,
Magnesium Sulfate, Manganese Sucrate, Manganese Sulfate, Zinc Sucrate,
and Zinc Sulfate in a time release format. The are safe for fish and
other aquatic life. The nitrogen in their formulation is 70% ammonium
based and 30% nitrate based.
--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
18,000 gallon (17'x 47'x 2-4') lily pond garden in Zone 6
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA

[Altum[_3_]]

Stephen Henning wrote:
> Altum > wrote:
>
>> Ammonium is just the protonated salt form of ammonia.
>>
>> NH4+ <--> NH3 + H+
>>
>> Put it in alkaline water (as in most ponds) and it promptly loses a
>> proton and becomes ammonia.
>
> Actually it becomes ammonium hydroxide. It may never become ammonia.
> Ammonium hydroxide is alkaline by definition. The fact that the
> ammonium is in salt form keeps the ammonium hydroxide from becoming very
> strong. That is what chemists call buffering. If what you said was
> true, all bottles of household ammonium hydroxide would explode since
> ammonium hydroxide is alkaline water and ammonia is a gas.

ROFLMAO! Last time I checked, plenty of gasses (like say...oxygen?) were
soluble in water.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_hydroxide

Note that only 0.42% of a 1M solution of household aqueous ammonia is in
the NH4+ form as ammonium hydroxide. The rest is dissolved,
fish-killing NH3.

Now, if you want to talk buffering, ammonium ion (NH4+) is the conjugate
acid of the Lewis Base, ammonia. That's what you're adding as
fertilizer, not ammonium hydroxide. The pKa of ammonium ion is 9.24.
Ponds should be buffered with over 100 ppm of carbonates holding the pH
steady so the ammonium salt has a minimal effect. Instead, it's
protonation state is set by the pond pH. That means at a typical pond
pH of 8, close to 10% of any form of NH3 or NH4+ that you add to the
water as fertilizer, fish waste, or urea breakdown goes to the horribly
toxic NH3 form. Then your biofilter has to handle it before it poisons
the fish.

> Successful water lily food manufacturers use ammonium compounds:
>
> The Once-A-Year Aquatic-Spikes from AgSafe (a div. of AgriTab Corp.,
> Clearfield UT) contain:
>
> Ureaform, Ammonium Phosphate, Potassium Nitrate, Potassium Sulfate,
> Calcium Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Iron Sucrate, Magnesium Sucrate,
> Magnesium Sulfate, Manganese Sucrate, Manganese Sulfate, Zinc Sucrate,
> and Zinc Sulfate in a time release format. The are safe for fish and
> other aquatic life. The nitrogen in their formulation is 70% ammonium
> based and 30% nitrate based.

Yeah, and you put them IN A POT, buried deep, and hope the plant uses
all the ammonium before it makes it out into the water column. If it
doesn't, you hope the large water volume in your pond dilutes the
ammonia/ammonium enough so it doesn't cause an algae bloom and hurt your
fish before it gets changed into nice, safe nitrate by the biofilter.

Again, we were talking about unpotted lilies growing on concrete. You
can add ammonium to your pond and see what happens. I'm sticking to
nitrate.

--
My other fish and pond forum is:
http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[Reel McKoi[_6_]]

"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
> LOL. I thought I'd said :-) That pond is 5' at the deep end, and that's
> where the best lilies are.
=========================
Maybe it's the summer heat here but my lilies do best at 18" (pot top to
water surface). I'm in zone 6. Long hot summers and short but often cold
winters.

What kind of water lilies are they to thrive in such deep water? Are they
native to where you live or the ones you can pick up at Lowe's and places
like Wally World?
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
ISP: Hughes.net
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö>
>

[Stephen Henning]

Altum > wrote:

> Again, we were talking about unpotted lilies growing on concrete. You
> can add ammonium to your pond and see what happens. I'm sticking to
> nitrate.

Wait a minute. I just pointed out that ammonium compounds are used in
plant spikes which is a product that is used in potted plants. I never
advocated adding any nitrogen to the water. In fact I make a great
effort to put in enough plants to remove most nitrogen from the water.
As you mention, in plant spikes, ammonium, urea, and nitrate fertilizers
are all used, but not in the water.

The only major nutrient that should be added to the water is potash, not
phosphates or nitrates or ammonium compounds. That is why it is not
practical to expect to have a nice pond and also have unpotted lilies to
bloom prolifically. As I mentioned, my unfertilized, unpotted lilies
bloomed, but not as much as a few potted lilies.

With unpotted lilies healthy water lilies probably is a sign that the
water not ideal for fish. What make the lilies look good would not be
good for the fish. That is a good reason to pot the lilies which is
what I did in my pond.
--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
18,000 gallon (17'x 47'x 2-4') lily pond garden in Zone 6
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA

[Derek Broughton]

~ jan wrote:

> On Thu, 5 Apr 2007 11:58:25 CST, "drsolo" > wrote:
>
>>in the frozen tundra of zone 5 (going on 6 due to global warming) more
>>than
>>18" -24" is too deep. it takes too much energy and too long to bloom as
>>it
>>is. Ingrid
>
> I wonder though, if lily type has a lot to do with production? When I
> moved my lilies from 6-8" from the surface down to 20" some (most) have
> performed better, and others have not. Flowers seemed bigger.

I'm sure you're right.
--
derek
- Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated
moderators.

[Hal[_1_]]

On Thu, 5 Apr 2007 13:22:42 CST, Derek Broughton
> wrote:

>The pond was built by digging a hole, and building up the sides with the
>dirt from the hole, so there's no possibility of runoff from the lawn (and
>I don't fertilize, anyway). There's some blown dirt - its on the edge of a
>farm, and come spring the ice is usually pretty dirty. However, very few
>trees, so no leaf debris.

You do have a liner?

I've tried bare root lilies before, and I haven't given up completely,
just keep changing plans, because the last one didn't work. This year
I have a converted hot tub with three lilies, two bare root.

I had shubunkin in the tub, but couldn't keep the water quality up,
so I removed the fish and began adding fertilizer to feed the bare
root lilies. Ingrid is right, enough fertilizer turns the water
green.

Regards,

Hal

[Hal[_1_]]

On Thu, 5 Apr 2007 22:45:30 CST, Stephen Henning >
wrote:

>With unpotted lilies healthy water lilies probably is a sign that the
>water not ideal for fish. What make the lilies look good would not be
>good for the fish. That is a good reason to pot the lilies which is
>what I did in my pond.

Good! That makes me feel like I got one thing right this year.

Regards,

Hal

[Derek Broughton]

Reel McKoi wrote:

> "Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Ye gods! I wouldn't dream of doing that. There's a pump on the bottom
>> that
>> pumps the mulm up into the veggie filter. Pretty well all the maintenance
>> is in the veggie filter.
>
> The bottom of my rubber lined ponds have a very gradual slope where I was
> told mulm, if any, would collect. But that's not the case. In the
> troublesome pond (which is actually 880g) the mulm collects all over the
> bottom and shelves. The pump, at the lowest point and in a prefilter of 2
> black plant baskets clam-shelled together, only sucks in what's real close
> and pumps it to the filter. The mulm around it is left undisturbed.

I use a large bore pump, capable of moving 7/8" solids (obviously, fish fry
too), and don't bother with a prefilter. Sure, mulm collects in folds and
flat spot in the rest of the pond. I don't worry about it. It all flows
downhill eventually.

>> Fish, and bare-root lilies to maximize their ability to extract nutrients
>> from the water.
>
> How do you remove the unwanted fry? Sorry but I don't remember why kind
> of fish you're keeping.

I've never seen evidence of koi fry, and the goldfish don't get too
prolific. I very rarely feed them - I'm sure there's a lot of
cannibalization, and a few going through the pump. That said, at any given
time it's home to a at least a few hundred goldfish and a half-dozen koi.
--
derek
- Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated
moderators.

[Derek Broughton]

Altum wrote:

> Derek Broughton wrote:
>> Altum wrote:
>>
>>> How can something that contains ammonia not be toxic to fish???
>>
>> The fertilizers mentioned contain ammonium, not ammonia. Really close,
>> but _much_ less toxic.
>
> Ammonium is just the protonated salt form of ammonia.

Yes, but it's _still_ much less toxic than ammonia.
>
> Put it in alkaline water (as in most ponds) and it promptly loses a
> proton and becomes ammonia.

"most ponds"? I think you'd be hard pressed to prove it. I'm not convinced
your chemistry is right, either - mine's way in the past, but it doesn't
seem valid to me.
--
derek
- Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated
moderators.

[Altum[_3_]]

Derek Broughton wrote:
> Altum wrote:

> Yes, but it's _still_ much less toxic than ammonia.
>> Put it in alkaline water (as in most ponds) and it promptly loses a
>> proton and becomes ammonia.
>
> "most ponds"? I think you'd be hard pressed to prove it. I'm not convinced
> your chemistry is right, either - mine's way in the past, but it doesn't
> seem valid to me.

What part of "pKa of ammonium = 9.2" is unclear? You can verify that
number anywhere. If you have forgotten what a pKa is, you may want to
go back to a chemistry text and review the Henderson-Hasselbach
equations and buffering chemistry. Knowing about the pH-dependent
equilibrium between less NH4+ and NH3 is fairly fundamental to aquarium
and pond chemistry.

--
My other fish and pond forum is:
http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[Derek Broughton]

Hal wrote:

> On Thu, 5 Apr 2007 13:22:42 CST, Derek Broughton
> > wrote:
>
> You do have a liner?

Yes. EPDM.

> I've tried bare root lilies before, and I haven't given up completely,
> just keep changing plans, because the last one didn't work. This year
> I have a converted hot tub with three lilies, two bare root.
>
> I had shubunkin in the tub, but couldn't keep the water quality up,
> so I removed the fish and began adding fertilizer to feed the bare
> root lilies. Ingrid is right, enough fertilizer turns the water
> green.

Sometimes, that just means too much nitrogen. Increasing potassium and
phosphorus for the rooted plants helps them compete with the algae. And
note, that if you're not getting enough flowers, but the lilies are
otherwise growing well, you probably have an excess of nitrogen, too.

Goldfish can thrive in pretty poor water, so when you say you "couldn't keep
the water quality up", it suggests to me that fertilizer (at least
nitrogen) isn't your problem.

I used to have a bath-tub pond by my front door. Every spring, I'd pull
plants off the bottom of the big pond and replant the tub pond. One year I
must have either included a goldfish egg or small fry with the plants. I
never saw him until I dug up the pond in the fall. There had never been
more than two inches of water above the soil in that tub (it was being used
mostly for Lotus), and the goldfish was 8" long when I found him.
--
derek
- Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated
moderators.

[Derek Broughton]

Reel McKoi wrote:

>
> "Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> Maybe it's the summer heat here but my lilies do best at 18" (pot top to
> water surface). I'm in zone 6. Long hot summers and short but often cold
> winters.
>
> What kind of water lilies are they to thrive in such deep water? Are they
> native to where you live or the ones you can pick up at Lowe's and places
> like Wally World?

They're various varieties of Odorata lilies - like you could pick up at
Lowe's if we had Lowe's :-)

Note, these are _old_ lilies - I routinely trim them to about 10" long in
Spring, and sometimes they get so massive they drag their weights and float
to the surface during the summer, then I have to divide them again.
--
derek
- Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated
moderators.

[Derek Broughton]

Altum wrote:

> Derek Broughton wrote:
>> Altum wrote:
>
>> Yes, but it's _still_ much less toxic than ammonia.
>>> Put it in alkaline water (as in most ponds) and it promptly loses a
>>> proton and becomes ammonia.
>>
>> "most ponds"? I think you'd be hard pressed to prove it. I'm not
>> convinced your chemistry is right, either - mine's way in the past, but
>> it doesn't seem valid to me.
>
> What part of "pKa of ammonium = 9.2" is unclear? You can verify that
> number anywhere. If you have forgotten what a pKa is, you may want to
> go back to a chemistry text and review the Henderson-Hasselbach

That would be Henderson-Hasselbalch...

> equations and buffering chemistry. Knowing about the pH-dependent
> equilibrium between less NH4+ and NH3 is fairly fundamental to aquarium
> and pond chemistry.

For those who don't know what Altum meant, there should be equal amounts of
Ammonia & Ammonium in a pond with a pH of 9.2. That's _really_ high for a
garden pond and the first thing I'd want to do is get it down. Since
getting a pond down to about 8.4 is really pretty simple, and the ratio of
ammonium:ammonia is about 10:1 at that pH, I'd suggest it's not as serious
a situation as he says.

See http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/index.php#2 for a nice
graph (slightly different from our situation because of salt water, but
close enough).

Now, if we're going to revise the argument and point out that it doesn't
matter that _all_ of the ammonium won't instantly become ammonia, but that
any amount of ammonia is a Bad Thing (TM), I'd pretty much have to agree
and point out that that's one reason why planting in clay soils is usually
recommended. If you're going to fertilize lilies, you should plant in a
clay soil, and use solid fertilizers in the soil. Not much will migrate
out of the clay before being used by the plant.

However, it's all complicated by the fact that bacteria are constantly
converting ammonia to nitrite & nitrate, and _any_ pond can remove some
amount of ammonia from the water - which is why so many people manage to
continually top up their ponds with tap water without killing the fish.
--
derek
- Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated
moderators.

[Altum[_3_]]

Derek Broughton wrote:
> Altum wrote:
>
>> Derek Broughton wrote:
>>> Altum wrote:
>>> Yes, but it's _still_ much less toxic than ammonia.
>>>> Put it in alkaline water (as in most ponds) and it promptly loses a
>>>> proton and becomes ammonia.
>>> "most ponds"? I think you'd be hard pressed to prove it. I'm not
>>> convinced your chemistry is right, either - mine's way in the past, but
>>> it doesn't seem valid to me.
>> What part of "pKa of ammonium = 9.2" is unclear? You can verify that
>> number anywhere. If you have forgotten what a pKa is, you may want to
>> go back to a chemistry text and review the Henderson-Hasselbach
>
> That would be Henderson-Hasselbalch...

ROFLMAO. Nice catch. But you see what I'm getting at - it doesn't
matter what form the ammonia/ammonium is in when you add it to buffered
water. If you add ANY form of ammonium salt or ammonia to typical
alkaline pond water, some of it will end up as toxic NH3, with the ratio
set by the pKa. There is no functional difference in a pond buffered
with 100 ppm of carbonates between adding 0.1 ppm of ammonium salts or
0.1 ppm of household ammonia (mostly NH3). People shouldn't read a
fertilizer label and think it's safe to put an ammonium salt into the
_water column_ because it's not ammonia.

>> equations and buffering chemistry. Knowing about the pH-dependent
>> equilibrium between less NH4+ and NH3 is fairly fundamental to aquarium
>> and pond chemistry.
>
> For those who don't know what Altum meant, there should be equal amounts of
> Ammonia & Ammonium in a pond with a pH of 9.2. That's _really_ high for a
> garden pond and the first thing I'd want to do is get it down. Since
> getting a pond down to about 8.4 is really pretty simple, and the ratio of
> ammonium:ammonia is about 10:1 at that pH, I'd suggest it's not as serious
> a situation as he says.

I dunno. I've kept systems at pH 8.4 and if there is enough free
NH4+/NH3 to show up on a typical test kit as the system cycles, it's
enough that the fish will be flashing and jumpy. Koi and goldies are
very tolerant of water conditions, but we all want to keep them in the
best possible conditions.

> See http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/index.php#2 for a nice
> graph (slightly different from our situation because of salt water, but
> close enough).
>
> Now, if we're going to revise the argument and point out that it doesn't
> matter that _all_ of the ammonium won't instantly become ammonia, but that
> any amount of ammonia is a Bad Thing (TM), I'd pretty much have to agree
> and point out that that's one reason why planting in clay soils is usually
> recommended. If you're going to fertilize lilies, you should plant in a
> clay soil, and use solid fertilizers in the soil. Not much will migrate
> out of the clay before being used by the plant.

I'm a strong believer that any unnecessary ammonia is a Bad Thing (TM).
Even the 10:1 ratio of ammonium to ammonia at pH 8.2 can cause
long-term stress and problems at levels that are difficult to register
on a test kit.

But this whole thing started with bare-root lilies. I have many plants
that take their sustenance from the water column in outdoor setups (WH,
water lettuce, elodea, watercress in the spillways, and even submerged
swordplants and grasses). The nitrogen and phosphate demand of the
plants far outstrips what the fish and foods provide. Add a little KNO3
and KH2PO4 to the water and I get healthy plants with lots of flowers.
(And my bluefin killies breed like rabbits so I'm certainly not hurting
the fish.)

Liquid Miracle-Gro was mentioned as a possibility for bare-root lilies
and I stated that any fertilizer considered for fish pond water, not
soil, must be completely ammonia-free.

> However, it's all complicated by the fact that bacteria are constantly
> converting ammonia to nitrite & nitrate, and _any_ pond can remove some
> amount of ammonia from the water - which is why so many people manage to
> continually top up their ponds with tap water without killing the fish.

It can, but we're back to the Bad Thing(TM).

--
My other fish and pond forum is:
http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[Hal[_1_]]

On Fri, 6 Apr 2007 12:35:15 CST, Derek Broughton
> wrote:

>I used to have a bath-tub pond by my front door. Every spring, I'd pull
>plants off the bottom of the big pond and replant the tub pond. One year I
>must have either included a goldfish egg or small fry with the plants. I
>never saw him until I dug up the pond in the fall. There had never been
>more than two inches of water above the soil in that tub (it was being used
>mostly for Lotus), and the goldfish was 8" long when I found him.

Goldfish are amazing. I find the biggest one's in my filter barrels.

I didn't like the temperature swings in the converted hot tub. No
heater, just sunshine, but the temperature rose to what I thought was
drastic speeds and so warm the fish never surfaced. Algae growth was
sometimes rapid and amazing, kept me busy cleaning the bucket filter
and I never felt it was adequate. I kept a pump going from a mid
section shelf for oxygen, but because they didn't surface, decided
that was just cruel to fish and put them into another pond. They
immediately changed, the next day they were up expecting food when I
walked up, so I think I made a good choice by turning the hot tub into
a plant pond.

It is a bit small for all the plants I have in it, but I'll work that
out as the summer progresses.

Regards,

Hal

[Derek Broughton]

Altum wrote:

> But this whole thing started with bare-root lilies.

OK, we're pretty much on the same page.

> I have many plants
> that take their sustenance from the water column in outdoor setups (WH,
> water lettuce, elodea, watercress in the spillways, and even submerged
> swordplants and grasses). The nitrogen and phosphate demand of the
> plants far outstrips what the fish and foods provide. Add a little KNO3
> and KH2PO4 to the water and I get healthy plants with lots of flowers.

YES! That really seems to be key. I'm not at all convinced that the
nitrogen demands outstrip what's available - I have no trouble getting
bare-root lilies to thrive in an unfertilized pond (with very little
feeding of the fish), but it may well be necessary to add potassium.

> (And my bluefin killies breed like rabbits so I'm certainly not hurting
> the fish.)

Frankly, I don't think they breed like rabbits at all. At the least, it's
generally hard for rabbits to breed underwater...

> Liquid Miracle-Gro was mentioned as a possibility for bare-root lilies
> and I stated that any fertilizer considered for fish pond water, not
> soil, must be completely ammonia-free.

And I'm with you there. I missed the reference to liquid Miracle-Gro - I
was responding to specific mention of ammonium-X fertilizers which are all
available in solids.

>> However, it's all complicated by the fact that bacteria are constantly
>> converting ammonia to nitrite & nitrate, and _any_ pond can remove some
>> amount of ammonia from the water - which is why so many people manage to
>> continually top up their ponds with tap water without killing the fish.
>
> It can, but we're back to the Bad Thing(TM).

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. If you're topping up your pond
with treated tap water you need to be _really_ careful, but I'm certain it
can be done without producing measurable ammonia/nitrite levels.
--
derek
- Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated
moderators.

[Altum[_3_]]

Derek Broughton wrote:
> Altum wrote:
>
>> But this whole thing started with bare-root lilies.
>
> OK, we're pretty much on the same page.
>
>> I have many plants
>> that take their sustenance from the water column in outdoor setups (WH,
>> water lettuce, elodea, watercress in the spillways, and even submerged
>> swordplants and grasses). The nitrogen and phosphate demand of the
>> plants far outstrips what the fish and foods provide. Add a little KNO3
>> and KH2PO4 to the water and I get healthy plants with lots of flowers.
>
> YES! That really seems to be key. I'm not at all convinced that the
> nitrogen demands outstrip what's available - I have no trouble getting
> bare-root lilies to thrive in an unfertilized pond (with very little
> feeding of the fish), but it may well be necessary to add potassium.

I'm only speaking of my own setup in regards to nitrogen shortage. I'm
sure it's not a problem for anyone with a lot of big koi or goldfish.
In fact, my three half-barrels of WH, lilies, cannas, and dwarf papyrus
could probably veggie filter a koi pond very nicely. If I don't
fertilize some KNO3, I get zero nitrate on the test kit and the floating
plants don't grow well. Old leaves die and new ones are smaller and
yellowed. The half-dozen white clouds, 2 rosy reds, and a few small
goldfish I keep to eat skeeters just don't keep up with three barrels
full of plants in the summer sun.

>> (And my bluefin killies breed like rabbits so I'm certainly not hurting
>> the fish.)
>
> Frankly, I don't think they breed like rabbits at all. At the least, it's
> generally hard for rabbits to breed underwater...

LOL! Their breeding displays are a little flashier than rabbits...

<snip>

> I think we'll have to agree to disagree. If you're topping up your pond
> with treated tap water you need to be _really_ careful, but I'm certain it
> can be done without producing measurable ammonia/nitrite levels.

Certainly. Top-offs are a judgement call. I add a squirt of AmQuel
myself, but my tap water is nasty and my water garden is small enough
that it's affordable.

--
My other fish and pond forum is:
http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[Gail Futoran]

Earlier in April I reported taking a large
hardy water lily out of its pot, dividing it,
and leaving it out of the pot. (The other
half went into another small pond.) I
had put a stick fertilizer in among the
mess of roots but otherwise it's a free-
floating water lily.

Leaves kept growing, and now I have a
flower bloom. Apparently this particular
hardy water lily doesn't require soil to
function.

Gail
near San Antonio TX USA

[Reel McKoi[_11_]]

"Gail Futoran" > wrote in message
...
> Leaves kept growing, and now I have a
> flower bloom. Apparently this particular
> hardy water lily doesn't require soil to
> function.
=======================
I'm experimenting with one tied to a rock as Derek does. So far only a few
puny leaves. All the others are already blooming or have buds. I suppose
if I want flowers I'll have to pull it up and pot it with a chunk of
fertilizer.
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
ISP: Hughes.net
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö>

[Gail Futoran]

"Reel McKoi" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Gail Futoran" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Leaves kept growing, and now I have a
>> flower bloom. Apparently this particular
>> hardy water lily doesn't require soil to
>> function.
> =======================
> I'm experimenting with one tied to a rock as Derek does. So far
> only a few puny leaves. All the others are already blooming or have
> buds. I suppose if I want flowers I'll have to pull it up and pot
> it with a chunk of fertilizer.
> --
> RM....
> Frugal ponding since 1995.
> rec.ponder since late 1996.
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://tinyurl.com/9do58
> Zone 6. Middle TN USA
> ISP: Hughes.net
> ~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö>

Mine's about 4 years old with very
large roots. Maybe younger plants
are better off potted in soil.

Gail