Home Gardening Becomes Even More Imperative [Archive]

30-05-2007, 06:19 PM

"Omelet" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Michael \"Dog3\" Lonergan" > wrote:
>
> > Charlie was forced to post this in: rec.gardens
> >
> > > http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/05/27/1485/
> >
> > Excerpt from article:
> >
> > "Almost a quarter of this year's US corn crop is expected to be turned
into
> > fuel. Drought in Australia has added to the food prices spike, which is
> > feeding through to world inflation."
> >
> > I swear to Gawd I'd be much happier if we went back to the horse and
buggy
> > days.
> >
> > Michael
>
> But it still takes "fuel" to feed the horse. <G>
>
> Can't win can we?
>
> Wonder what the mpb (mile per bushel) for horses is?
>
> I still don't understand why biofuel is being manufactured from food
> instead of waste! There are tons and tons of weeds and corn STALKS that
> can be used instead. Wheat straw, millet, milo and sorghum straw (hell
> any stalks left over from ANY grain crops) as well as the non-edible
> tops from root crops.
>

I am involved with a client that is breaking in to the biofuel world. They
have perfected a process that turns meat-processing sludge (they are working
primarily with chicken plant sludge which is basically everything that is
left over at the end of the production run) into the appropriate amino acid
base for a biofuel blend. This sludge is run through a *cleaning* process
which has a yield rate of roughly 80% usable material to garbage and then it
is refined which drops the final yield another 10%. The end product is then
blended with diesel at varying rates depending on the needs of the final
consumer. It's an up and coming industry and they are very secretive about
the processes, etc so I don't have any idea what kind of energy use is
required to render the final product, but was told that the rendering
process does require more work than does Palm or Corn (the 2 most prolific
oil bases currently used) , but that overall, their cost per gallon is quite
a bit less due the to cost of raw material and transportation vs the other
2. (Most of the Palm oil is shipped in from Africa and there is not as great
a density in farms producing corn for fuel as compared to the relatively
high density iseen n the poultry processing areas.

KW

> All it really takes is digestible cellulose.
>
> What am I missing here?
>
> A bit of BS perhaps?
>
> Speaking of BS, methane can also be compressed and used as a liquid fuel
> and heaven knows there is enough sh** being produced!
> --
> Peace, Om
>
> Remove _ to validate e-mails.
>
> "My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack
Nicholson

Rachael Simpson

30-05-2007, 06:28 PM

AMEN!!!!

Of course, that would work for me cause we already have the wagon and
horses.........

"Michael "Dog3" Lonergan" > wrote in message
> I swear to Gawd I'd be much happier if we went back to the horse and buggy
> days.
>
> Michael
>
> --
> This is how it works in my house. Click the pic to enlarge it:
> http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=42ko0mf
> -remove "foodie" to email

FragileWarrior

30-05-2007, 06:30 PM

Omelet > wrote in
:

> In article >,
> "Michael \"Dog3\" Lonergan" > wrote:
>
>> Charlie was forced to post this in: rec.gardens
>>
>> > http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/05/27/1485/
>>
>> Excerpt from article:
>>
>> "Almost a quarter of this year’s US corn crop is expected to be
>> turned into fuel. Drought in Australia has added to the food prices
>> spike, which is feeding through to world inflation."
>>
>> I swear to Gawd I'd be much happier if we went back to the horse and
>> buggy days.
>>
>> Michael
>
> But it still takes "fuel" to feed the horse. <G>

You put them on the lawn. (I do that with all three of mine.) What they
produce from trimming the lawn gets fed back to the garden in time.

Don't think that a good buggy and harness and horse cost any less than a
car, though, those days are pretty much gone. And my big boy produces
more than his share of methane -- and it's usually when I'm grooming his
tail.

FragileWarrior

30-05-2007, 06:32 PM

"Rachael Simpson" > wrote in
:

> AMEN!!!!
>
> Of course, that would work for me cause we already have the wagon and
> horses.........

In our town horses are still considered transportation. I kid you not. :)

Bill Rose

30-05-2007, 06:52 PM

In article >,
Ann > wrote:

> Charlie expounded:
>
> >Full article at:
> >
> >http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/05/27/1485/
> >
> >Battle for Biofuels Drives World Food Prices Higher
> >
> >>America’s thirst for environmentally friendly biofuels
> >>is driving up food prices around the world as farmers
> >>scramble to devote more land to corn.
> >
>
> Is the US government still paying farmers to *not* grow crops?

Charlie,
It appears that the "New Deal" for farmers was laid to rest in the 70s
after it had been whittled at for a generation. The original deal was
where the government would loan the farmer money to hold the crop off
the market until prices went higher. If they didn't go higher, the
government kept the crop and they called it even. The reasoning being
that it was in the nations interest to lay away food for bad time and to
support the farmers who grew it. In the 1970s the above got changed to
price supports. The government decided what a fair price was and paid
the farmer the difference. Thing is as the government determined price
has dropped, farmers raise more to cover expenses, causing in turn a
lowering if price supports. By now the farmer gets about 4 cents to the
dollar for their crop, uh, commodity.

The main benefactors of the commodity price collapse for corn is Archer
Daniel Midlands and, Cargill.

The price collapse realy started in the 50s with the introduction of
chemical fertilizers. Previously, farmers had used crop rotation and
manure to invigorate their land. Now there is no need for crop rotation,
meaning more corn and lower prices.

According to Michael Pollard's book,"Omnivore's Delimma"
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2006/04/11_pollan.shtml
it takes a little over 1 petroleum calorie to produce 1 calorie of
edible corn (pg. 46, 1st paragraph). There is the possibility of using
the entire plant by converting the cellulose back to sugar but I don't
know what energy investment that would entail.

Funny thing though, before using crop rotation and farm manure, you got
2 food calories out for everyone put in and the environment was a hell
of a lot healthier.

How you making out with your clay?

- Bill
Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)

P.S. Jan I wish I had known that this book was continuation from
Pollard's previous book, "The Botany of Desire". Damn, this is turning
into a serious amount of summer reading.

Charlie[_2_]

30-05-2007, 07:59 PM

On Wed, 30 May 2007 09:52:11 -0700, Bill Rose >
wrote:

>Charlie,
>It appears that the "New Deal" for farmers was laid to rest in the 70s
>after it had been whittled at for a generation. The original deal was
>where the government would loan the farmer money to hold the crop off
>the market until prices went higher. If they didn't go higher, the
>government kept the crop and they called it even. The reasoning being
>that it was in the nations interest to lay away food for bad time and to
>support the farmers who grew it. In the 1970s the above got changed to
>price supports. The government decided what a fair price was and paid
>the farmer the difference. Thing is as the government determined price
>has dropped, farmers raise more to cover expenses, causing in turn a
>lowering if price supports. By now the farmer gets about 4 cents to the
>dollar for their crop, uh, commodity.
>
>The main benefactors of the commodity price collapse for corn is Archer
>Daniel Midlands and, Cargill.
>
>The price collapse realy started in the 50s with the introduction of
>chemical fertilizers. Previously, farmers had used crop rotation and
>manure to invigorate their land. Now there is no need for crop rotation,
>meaning more corn and lower prices.

And until this point, much af what was produced on the farm remained on
the farm. I can't recall the percentage of produce that left the farm,
but it was fairly low.

Nearly every forty or eighty had a farm and family. Most, if not all
of the family food was produced and processed on the farm.

Stock was taken to a local or regional processing plant and was
processed and distributed to local stores. Stores sold local eggs and
produce, in season. You see what we have now. People were trying to
make a living and life for their families and communities, not trying
to become quadrazillionaires.

I well remember the taste of real pork and beef, real eggs and real
milk. Ever notice how pork and chicken kinda taste the same nowadays?

Back in the fifties and sixties, the local farmers also provided good
summer jobs for us kids. Before Monsanto, we walked bean fields,
cutting out the weeds. We made hay all summer.

Now there is little work for our young, even less meaningful work.
Gardening can be return to this, a reconnection with the natural world
and the natural rhythms of life. To the quietness of nature and mind
the working the dirt can bring.
>
>According to Michael Pollard's book,"Omnivore's Delimma"
>http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2006/04/11_pollan.shtml
>it takes a little over 1 petroleum calorie to produce 1 calorie of
>edible corn (pg. 46, 1st paragraph). There is the possibility of using
>the entire plant by converting the cellulose back to sugar but I don't
>know what energy investment that would entail.
>
>Funny thing though, before using crop rotation and farm manure, you got
>2 food calories out for everyone put in and the environment was a hell
>of a lot healthier.
>
>How you making out with your clay?

Ha! Always one to make me think, aincha? I am holding off to see some
results on my friends pastures and research a bit more.

>
>- Bill
>Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)

Care Brudda
Charlie

Charlie[_2_]

30-05-2007, 08:22 PM

On Wed, 30 May 2007 14:51:21 GMT, "Michael \"Dog3\" Lonergan"
> wrote:

>I swear to Gawd I'd be much happier if we went back to the horse and buggy
>days.

After I left the bright lights and tall buildings behind, I spent
several years going broke by helping the local farmers and doing other
odd work, like cleaning chimneys (like that wasn't hazardous). This
was in the area in which I grew up.

One older farmer I regularly helped work cattle, still kept a team of
Belgians and would always work about ten acres of corn with them along
with giving the neighbors sleigh rides in the winter. It was *so*
peaceful watching them and hearing only the squeaking of harness and
implements. Nothing to drown out the sound of everything else in the
vicinity.

For sure, it would have been hard work, but I think that was better
than today's alternative. And healthier.

Care, and thanks for bringing this to mind
Charlie

Bill Rose

30-05-2007, 08:33 PM

In article >,
"KW" <keith_warrennospamatallteldotnet> wrote:

> I am involved with a client that is breaking in to the biofuel world. They
> have perfected a process that turns meat-processing sludge (they are working
> primarily with chicken plant sludge which is basically everything that is
> left over at the end of the production run) into the appropriate amino acid
> base for a biofuel blend. This sludge is run through a *cleaning* process
> which has a yield rate of roughly 80% usable material to garbage and then it
> is refined which drops the final yield another 10%. The end product is then
> blended with diesel at varying rates depending on the needs of the final
> consumer. It's an up and coming industry and they are very secretive about
> the processes, etc so I don't have any idea what kind of energy use is
> required to render the final product, but was told that the rendering
> process does require more work than does Palm or Corn (the 2 most prolific
> oil bases currently used) , but that overall, their cost per gallon is quite
> a bit less due the to cost of raw material and transportation vs the other
> 2. (Most of the Palm oil is shipped in from Africa and there is not as great
> a density in farms producing corn for fuel as compared to the relatively
> high density iseen n the poultry processing areas.
>
> KW

Chicken plant sludge? We call that sausage. There is nothing left over.
Nothing but the horrid smell of a charnel house. Even the feathers are
feed to cows for protein.
The way this works is that cattle and chickens are basically corn,
because corn is cheap. The corn in turn is based on petroleum
(fertilizer, insecticides and fuel for the tractor) that is owned by
people who hate us because we are trying to take it away from them (and
have been since [1953?], when we sent Kermit Roosevelt (CIA) to Iran to
over throw the legally elected government of Dr. Mohammed Mosaddeq and
install our ruthless puppet the Shah. [ and people wonder why they don't
like us]). I presume that this isn't a pitch and, that you are just
trying to pass along information, for which I appreciate the thought,
BUT you don't make biodiesel from amino acids. You make protein from
amino acids and, fuel from carbohydrates, like sugar or, hydrocarbons,
like oil.

Your friend might want to get his money back. Bush SAYS he is pushing
for fuel cells.

- Bill
Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)

Charlie[_2_]

30-05-2007, 09:02 PM

On Wed, 30 May 2007 11:33:58 -0700, Bill Rose >
wrote:

>
>Chicken plant sludge? We call that sausage. There is nothing left over.
>Nothing but the horrid smell of a charnel house. Even the feathers are
>feed to cows for protein.

Looks like the price of beef is going to skyrocket, if'ns we feed both
the corn and chickenshit/feathers to our cars.

Holy shit, horrid doesn't even describe it. I've driven by these
places, in southern MO and northern ARK. In our end of the state
someone is always fighting with, and usually losing to, the pork
producers and the state. Premium Farms has emptied a large part of a
neighboring county with the stench and pollution. I shit you not, if
you even walk in one of those buildings for a few seconds, the reek is
nigh on impossible to remove from your skin and clothing. I don't give
a crap what they claim and "verify", they are destroying large areas of
the environment, let alone the independent producers, of which there
are few left. Money talks and pigshit reeks.

There would be a whole lot less fast food eaten if people could drive
by and see and smell these places. Tyson? Hormel? Patooie.

>Your friend might want to get his money back. Bush SAYS he is pushing
>for fuel cells.

*snork*

Charlie

FragileWarrior

30-05-2007, 11:16 PM

"Michael \"Dog3\" Lonergan" > wrote in
6.121:

> FragileWarrior > was forced to post
> this in: rec.gardens
>
>> Omelet > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>> In article >,
>>> "Michael \"Dog3\" Lonergan" > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Charlie was forced to post this in: rec.gardens
>>>>
>>>> > http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/05/27/1485/
>>>>
>>>> Excerpt from article:
>>>>
>>>> "Almost a quarter of this year’s US corn crop is expected to be
>>>> turned into fuel. Drought in Australia has added to the food prices
>>>> spike, which is feeding through to world inflation."
>>>>
>>>> I swear to Gawd I'd be much happier if we went back to the horse
>>>> and buggy days.
>>>>
>>>> Michael
>>>
>>> But it still takes "fuel" to feed the horse. <G>
>>
>> You put them on the lawn. (I do that with all three of mine.) What
>> they produce from trimming the lawn gets fed back to the garden in
>> time.
>>
>> Don't think that a good buggy and harness and horse cost any less
>> than a car, though, those days are pretty much gone. And my big boy
>> produces more than his share of methane -- and it's usually when I'm
>> grooming his tail.
>
> I just got back from riding Jonsey. He hates the indoor ring but it's
> just too wet to jump outside. Same old routine. He dances around and
> plops a few big dollops and then tries to throw me. He is definitely
> an outside boy. He has yet to emit any methane while I'm gooming him
> but I'm not about to give him any ideas.
>
> Michael
>

D'argo has always saved his best... er... ERUPTIONS...:) for the
farriers. He does it to be funny, I swear. It's his own personal
commentary on things. And he always has a look on his face like the
little boy who farts loudly in church -- totally embarrased but obviously
he couldn't control it, Mom. Really, it was just an accident.

Charlie[_2_]

31-05-2007, 01:33 AM

On Wed, 30 May 2007 16:32:10 +0000 (UTC), FragileWarrior
> wrote:

>"Rachael Simpson" > wrote in
:
>
>> AMEN!!!!
>>
>> Of course, that would work for me cause we already have the wagon and
>> horses.........
>
>In our town horses are still considered transportation. I kid you not. :)

Must be those of Swiss-German descent?

Several groups have come to our area as well. It's like really kinda
weird when met, like a step back in time.

Drive Carefully
Charlie

FragileWarrior

31-05-2007, 01:45 AM

Charlie wrote in :

> On Wed, 30 May 2007 16:32:10 +0000 (UTC), FragileWarrior
> > wrote:
>
>>"Rachael Simpson" > wrote in
:
>>
>>> AMEN!!!!
>>>
>>> Of course, that would work for me cause we already have the wagon
>>> and horses.........
>>
>>In our town horses are still considered transportation. I kid you
>>not. :)
>
> Must be those of Swiss-German descent?

Hell no. These are Indiana born and raised for generations and
generations.

>
> Several groups have come to our area as well. It's like really kinda
> weird when met, like a step back in time.

Nope. It's just a small town in Indiana. I'm in the heart of town.
There's the post office, town hall, our only restaurant and four grain
silos. Oh, yeah, and the tornado siren. There are no stop signs/lights
on Main Street. I keep my horses in the heart of town and I can ride
them right to the door of the post office if I feel like it.

Rachael Simpson

31-05-2007, 02:04 AM

"FragileWarrior" > wrote in message
...
> Charlie wrote in :
>
>> On Wed, 30 May 2007 16:32:10 +0000 (UTC), FragileWarrior
>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>In our town horses are still considered transportation. I kid you
>>>not. :)
>>
>> Must be those of Swiss-German descent?
>
> Hell no. These are Indiana born and raised for generations and
> generations.
>
>>
>> Several groups have come to our area as well. It's like really kinda
>> weird when met, like a step back in time.
>
>
> Nope. It's just a small town in Indiana. I'm in the heart of town.
> There's the post office, town hall, our only restaurant and four grain
> silos. Oh, yeah, and the tornado siren. There are no stop signs/lights
> on Main Street. I keep my horses in the heart of town and I can ride
> them right to the door of the post office if I feel like it.

Can't take the wagon out much around here - all the big rigs would run over
us!
Can ride the horses though. My husband has been known to "ride" thru the
local Hardee's drive thru. Gets lots of laughs about that.
There is a town here in NC called Love Valley. No cars are allowed there -
horses & mules only!

Ann

31-05-2007, 02:05 AM

Bill Rose > expounded:

>In article >,
> Ann > wrote:
>
>> Charlie expounded:
>>
>> >Full article at:
>> >
>> >http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/05/27/1485/
>> >
>> >Battle for Biofuels Drives World Food Prices Higher
>> >
>> >>America’s thirst for environmentally friendly biofuels
>> >>is driving up food prices around the world as farmers
>> >>scramble to devote more land to corn.
>> >
>>
>> Is the US government still paying farmers to *not* grow crops?
>
>Charlie,

Thank you, Bill, but....I am not Charlie :o)

(I asked the question, not Charlie)
--
Ann, gardening in Zone 6a
South of Boston, Massachusetts
e-mail address is not checked
******************************

Jan Flora

31-05-2007, 02:11 AM

In article
>,
Bill Rose > wrote:

> In article >,
> Ann > wrote:
>
> > Charlie expounded:
> >
[...]

> - Bill
> Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)
>
> P.S. Jan I wish I had known that this book was continuation from
> Pollard's previous book, "The Botany of Desire". Damn, this is turning
> into a serious amount of summer reading.

Bill:

I haven't read the second book yet. The first one is a pretty
fast read, but I read fast...

The chapter about tulips is fascinating, as well as the reason
why Johnny Appleseed planted apples all over the place. To
folks who haven't read the book, he was planting apple trees
to produce apples to make hard cider. A man after my own heart.

Jan

--
Bedouin proverb: If you have no troubles, buy a goat.

Charlie[_2_]

31-05-2007, 02:14 AM

On Wed, 30 May 2007 23:45:07 +0000 (UTC), FragileWarrior
> wrote:

>>
>> Must be those of Swiss-German descent?
>
>Hell no. These are Indiana born and raised for generations and
>generations.
>
>>
>> Several groups have come to our area as well. It's like really kinda
>> weird when met, like a step back in time.
>
>
>Nope. It's just a small town in Indiana. I'm in the heart of town.
>There's the post office, town hall, our only restaurant and four grain
>silos. Oh, yeah, and the tornado siren. There are no stop signs/lights
>on Main Street. I keep my horses in the heart of town and I can ride
>them right to the door of the post office if I feel like it.

I'll be damned. In Indiana?

Nothing like a small town. Sounds like the town I grew up in, sans
horses in town.

My sons both live about ten miles away, in a town of 250 or so (raised
them boys right, we did! They don't care much for the bright lights
and fast pace either) The town council went and got uppity, thinking, I
guess that they were a suburb of our town of about 10 grand, and passed
an ordinance banning any livestock. Elder son has an acre and a half
in town and was considering a Jersey and chickens. Screwed now.

Charlie, Dodgin' the occasional buggy

Jan Flora

31-05-2007, 02:34 AM

In article >, Charlie wrote:

> On Wed, 30 May 2007 09:52:11 -0700, Bill Rose >
> wrote:
>

[...]
>
> Stock was taken to a local or regional processing plant and was
> processed and distributed to local stores. Stores sold local eggs and
> produce, in season. You see what we have now. People were trying to
> make a living and life for their families and communities, not trying
> to become quadrazillionaires.

Some of us are still doing that. There are three gals right here in
my little neighborhood who sell our eggs. About 50 dozen eggs a
week, between the three of us, and we can't meet our market demand.

A couple of gals sell raw milk, but do it very quietly, because
it's not legal in this state to sell it.

Another neighbor is a truck farmer and a founding mother of our
local Farmers Market, which has grown exponentially in 5 years.

And all of my Old Believer Russian neighbors grow a huge amount
of the food they need for the year. Literally tons of spuds; cabbage;
carrots; broccoli; lots of beets (for borscht), etc. (Lots of food
crops thrive in our cool Alaskan summers.) They all have greenhouses --
typical size is ~20'x30', although one neighbor just built a new one
that's at least 40' long. (I'm very jealous...)

Those families average 12 children each. The kids help with the
garden, the milk cows, the chickens (meat & egg), the horses,
goats and other assorted & sundry animals. The kids also go out
commercial fishing with their dads & uncles, and they go hunting
in the fall for moose & caribou. The kids grow up with a real
understanding of where their food comes from and how to make it
all happen.

>
> Back in the fifties and sixties, the local farmers also provided good
> summer jobs for us kids. Before Monsanto, we walked bean fields,
> cutting out the weeds. We made hay all summer.

We can't get "American" kids to work on the ranch, doing haying.
The Russian kids are happy for the work. I've never heard a single
whimper or whine, bucking square bales.

> >Funny thing though, before using crop rotation and farm manure, you got
> >2 food calories out for everyone put in and the environment was a hell
> >of a lot healthier.
> >

We sell our composted cow manure like crazy this time of year.
The organic truck farmers and my Russian neighbors buy it.

We started selling the cow poop simply because we're always broke
in May. I needed money to pay the light bill & the phone bill.
Now we sell I don't know how many tons of it every spring : )

Jan in Alaska
Zone 3 and time to plant-out, right after this full moon
(we have snow in the forecast for tomorrow night)

--
Bedouin proverb: If you have no troubles, buy a goat.

Omelet

31-05-2007, 03:52 AM

In article
>,
Bill Rose > wrote:

> Bush SAYS he is pushing
> for fuel cells.
>
> - Bill

I'll believe that when I see it...
I think he's just playing lip service if you know what I mean.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

Charlie[_2_]

31-05-2007, 03:58 AM

On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:52:51 -0500, Omelet >
wrote:

>In article
>,
> Bill Rose > wrote:
>
>> Bush SAYS he is pushing
>> for fuel cells.
>>
>> - Bill
>
>I'll believe that when I see it...
>I think he's just playing lip service if you know what I mean.

Hmmmm.....thought that was the the Arkansawyer that played that.

Charlie[_2_]

31-05-2007, 04:08 AM

On Wed, 30 May 2007 15:34:28 -0900, Jan Flora > wrote:

>In article >, Charlie wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 30 May 2007 09:52:11 -0700, Bill Rose >
>> wrote:
>>
>
> [...]
>>
>> Stock was taken to a local or regional processing plant and was
>> processed and distributed to local stores. Stores sold local eggs and
>> produce, in season. You see what we have now. People were trying to
>> make a living and life for their families and communities, not trying
>> to become quadrazillionaires.
>
>Some of us are still doing that. There are three gals right here in
>my little neighborhood who sell our eggs. About 50 dozen eggs a
>week, between the three of us, and we can't meet our market demand.
>
>A couple of gals sell raw milk, but do it very quietly, because
>it's not legal in this state to sell it.
>
>Another neighbor is a truck farmer and a founding mother of our
>local Farmers Market, which has grown exponentially in 5 years.
>
>And all of my Old Believer Russian neighbors grow a huge amount
>of the food they need for the year. Literally tons of spuds; cabbage;
>carrots; broccoli; lots of beets (for borscht), etc. (Lots of food
>crops thrive in our cool Alaskan summers.) They all have greenhouses --
>typical size is ~20'x30', although one neighbor just built a new one
>that's at least 40' long. (I'm very jealous...)
>
>Those families average 12 children each. The kids help with the
>garden, the milk cows, the chickens (meat & egg), the horses,
>goats and other assorted & sundry animals. The kids also go out
>commercial fishing with their dads & uncles, and they go hunting
>in the fall for moose & caribou. The kids grow up with a real
>understanding of where their food comes from and how to make it
>all happen.
>
>>
>> Back in the fifties and sixties, the local farmers also provided good
>> summer jobs for us kids. Before Monsanto, we walked bean fields,
>> cutting out the weeds. We made hay all summer.
>
>We can't get "American" kids to work on the ranch, doing haying.
>The Russian kids are happy for the work. I've never heard a single
>whimper or whine, bucking square bales.
>
>
>> >Funny thing though, before using crop rotation and farm manure, you got
>> >2 food calories out for everyone put in and the environment was a hell
>> >of a lot healthier.
>> >
>
>We sell our composted cow manure like crazy this time of year.
>The organic truck farmers and my Russian neighbors buy it.
>
>We started selling the cow poop simply because we're always broke
>in May. I needed money to pay the light bill & the phone bill.
>Now we sell I don't know how many tons of it every spring : )
>
> Jan in Alaska
> Zone 3 and time to plant-out, right after this full moon
> (we have snow in the forecast for tomorrow night)

Whoa.....are you alive? Is this post originating from heaven?

Hello, is this god speaking? Is this a vision of the afterlife?

Seriously now.....

Charlie, to whom the angel spoke

jangchub

31-05-2007, 05:14 AM

On Wed, 30 May 2007 14:51:21 GMT, "Michael \"Dog3\" Lonergan"
> wrote:

>Charlie was forced to post this in: rec.gardens
>
>> http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/05/27/1485/
>
>Excerpt from article:
>
>"Almost a quarter of this year’s US corn crop is expected to be turned into
>fuel. Drought in Australia has added to the food prices spike, which is
>feeding through to world inflation."
>
>I swear to Gawd I'd be much happier if we went back to the horse and buggy
>days.
>
>Michael

I could not agree more. I bet those were much easier times to live.
Now we have cereal aisles with ten thousand different cereals. When I
was a kid there was Kellogs Frosted Flakes, Fruit Loops, Shredded
Wheat and Farina! Well, more than that, but certainly not an aisle
full of postured, product placement. It's mind boggling.

FragileWarrior

31-05-2007, 01:16 PM

"Michael \"Dog3\" Lonergan" > wrote in
.121:

> FragileWarrior > was forced to post
> this in: rec.gardens
>>> I just got back from riding Jonsey. He hates the indoor ring but
>>> it's just too wet to jump outside. Same old routine. He dances
>>> around and plops a few big dollops and then tries to throw me. He is
>>> definitely an outside boy. He has yet to emit any methane while I'm
>>> gooming him but I'm not about to give him any ideas.
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>
>> D'argo has always saved his best... er... ERUPTIONS...:) for the
>> farriers. He does it to be funny, I swear. It's his own personal
>> commentary on things. And he always has a look on his face like the
>> little boy who farts loudly in church -- totally embarrased but
>> obviously he couldn't control it, Mom. Really, it was just an
>> accident.
>
> Jonsey was such a quiet, sweet fellow when I first started riding him.
> Now he's full of the devil. Seems like right after I made the
> decision to buy him, the spoiled child routine started. I suppose he
> somehow senses he has a permanent, good family and wants the spoils
> he's missed. He never looks embarrased when he does something
> ungentlemanly like. He looks defiant ;) Somehow I've got to get him
> to realize he no longer has to race for his oats. Once he settles
> down he can sail over fences like no other horse I've ever had but if
> I don't warm him up first I find myself hurtling over fences at what
> seems like 100mph.
>
> Michael
>
>

I hope you're wearing a helmet, my friend.

Omelet

31-05-2007, 05:17 PM

In article >, Charlie wrote:

> On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:52:51 -0500, Omelet >
> wrote:
>
> >In article
> >,
> > Bill Rose > wrote:
> >
> >> Bush SAYS he is pushing
> >> for fuel cells.
> >>
> >> - Bill
> >
> >I'll believe that when I see it...
> >I think he's just playing lip service if you know what I mean.
>
> Hmmmm.....thought that was the the Arkansawyer that played that.

Huh?????
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

Rachael Simpson

31-05-2007, 07:00 PM

"Omelet" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Charlie wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:52:51 -0500, Omelet >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >In article
>> >,
>> > Bill Rose > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Bush SAYS he is pushing
>> >> for fuel cells.
>> >>
>> >> - Bill
>> >
>> >I'll believe that when I see it...
>> >I think he's just playing lip service if you know what I mean.
>>
>> Hmmmm.....thought that was the the Arkansawyer that played that.
>
> Huh?????
> --
> Peace, Om
>
> Remove _ to validate e-mails.
>
> "My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack
> Nicholson

Hi Om,

I believe charlie was referencing (jokingly) the bill & monica scandel, uh,
show! charlie can correct me if i'm wrong though.......

Rae

Omelet

31-05-2007, 07:05 PM

In article >,
"Rachael Simpson" > wrote:

> >> >I'll believe that when I see it...
> >> >I think he's just playing lip service if you know what I mean.
> >>
> >> Hmmmm.....thought that was the the Arkansawyer that played that.
> >
> > Huh?????
>
> Hi Om,
>
> I believe charlie was referencing (jokingly) the bill & monica scandel, uh,
> show! charlie can correct me if i'm wrong though.......
>
> Rae

Makes sense now, sorry! ;-)

Just color that a "duh" moment for me! <lol>
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

FragileWarrior

31-05-2007, 09:02 PM

"Michael \"Dog3\" Lonergan" > wrote in
6.121:

>> I hope you're wearing a helmet, my friend.
>
> Always. And no jewelry either.
>
> Michael

The first time I popped a helmet I had to return it for a new one and write
a story about what had happened so they could study it. I settled for
drawing a cartoon of Evil D'argo (complete with tiny, devil, horse-horns)
laughing maniacally as he sucked in his gut and spun his saddle -- and me
-- off on steep slope. I think I may even have had bounce lines to show my
trajectory down the hillside.

dr-solo@wi.rr.xx.com

31-05-2007, 10:58 PM

the problem is, all carbon based fuels release CO2 when burned.

what we need is to break the hydrogen oxygen bond in water and then burn the hydrogen
back to water. plants do this, they use solar energy to knock the hydrogen off the
water, use the energy of the electrons to form a covalent bond (organic) that stores
the energy (using CO2). That is really clean energy.

Ingrid

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

Jan Flora

01-06-2007, 12:36 AM

In article >,
FragileWarrior > wrote:

> Charlie wrote in :
>
> > On Wed, 30 May 2007 16:32:10 +0000 (UTC), FragileWarrior
> > > wrote:
> >
> >>"Rachael Simpson" > wrote in
> :
> >>
> >>> AMEN!!!!
> >>>
> >>> Of course, that would work for me cause we already have the wagon
> >>> and horses.........
> >>
> >>In our town horses are still considered transportation. I kid you
> >>not. :)
> >
> > Must be those of Swiss-German descent?
>
> Hell no. These are Indiana born and raised for generations and
> generations.
>
> >
> > Several groups have come to our area as well. It's like really kinda
> > weird when met, like a step back in time.
>
>
> Nope. It's just a small town in Indiana. I'm in the heart of town.
> There's the post office, town hall, our only restaurant and four grain
> silos. Oh, yeah, and the tornado siren. There are no stop signs/lights
> on Main Street. I keep my horses in the heart of town and I can ride
> them right to the door of the post office if I feel like it.

If you run across anyone named "Flora" in Indiana, they're
probably kin to me. My g.g. Uncle John Flora founded the
town of Flora, Indiana. My family back there is Mennonite.
(And Swiss-German.)

Grandpa Flora grew up horse farming back there. I come
by these tendencies to garden, farm and raise livestock
honestly : )

Jan in Alaska

--
Bedouin proverb: If you have no troubles, buy a goat.

FragileWarrior

01-06-2007, 01:15 AM

Jan Flora > wrote in
:

> In article >,
> FragileWarrior > wrote:
>
>> Charlie wrote in :
>>
>> > On Wed, 30 May 2007 16:32:10 +0000 (UTC), FragileWarrior
>> > > wrote:
>> >
>> >>"Rachael Simpson" > wrote in
>> :
>> >>
>> >>> AMEN!!!!
>> >>>
>> >>> Of course, that would work for me cause we already have the wagon
>> >>> and horses.........
>> >>
>> >>In our town horses are still considered transportation. I kid you
>> >>not. :)
>> >
>> > Must be those of Swiss-German descent?
>>
>> Hell no. These are Indiana born and raised for generations and
>> generations.
>>
>> >
>> > Several groups have come to our area as well. It's like really
>> > kinda weird when met, like a step back in time.
>>
>>
>> Nope. It's just a small town in Indiana. I'm in the heart of town.
>> There's the post office, town hall, our only restaurant and four
>> grain silos. Oh, yeah, and the tornado siren. There are no stop
>> signs/lights on Main Street. I keep my horses in the heart of town
>> and I can ride them right to the door of the post office if I feel
>> like it.
>
> If you run across anyone named "Flora" in Indiana, they're
> probably kin to me. My g.g. Uncle John Flora founded the
> town of Flora, Indiana. My family back there is Mennonite.
> (And Swiss-German.)

Cool. I'm not from Indiana and have only been here five year so I'll
have to look up where that is.

>
> Grandpa Flora grew up horse farming back there. I come
> by these tendencies to garden, farm and raise livestock
> honestly : )

Not bad heritage, is it? I'm a farmer at heart but grew up in a city. I
keep trying to talk farmers into letting me run their heavy equipment
under the guise of "helping them" but, really, I just want to be a farmer
driving a big ol' John Deere.

Bill Rose

01-06-2007, 04:42 AM

In article >,
wrote:

> the problem is, all carbon based fuels release CO2 when burned.
>
> what we need is to break the hydrogen oxygen bond in water and then burn the
> hydrogen
> back to water. plants do this, they use solar energy to knock the hydrogen
> off the
> water, use the energy of the electrons to form a covalent bond (organic) that
> stores
> the energy (using CO2). That is really clean energy.
>
> Ingrid
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
> http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
> sign up:
> http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
> I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

Not to put too fine a point on it, but fossil fuel has been out of the
carbon cycle for a long time and is being reintroduced. Wood burned from
last year though is just going around and around in the carbon cycle. We
need to stop burning fossil fuel.

- Bill
Coloribus gustibus non disputatum

Usenet2007@THE-DOMAIN-IN.SIG

01-06-2007, 06:01 AM

In article >,
says...

> Nope. It's just a small town in Indiana. I'm in the heart of town.
> There's the post office, town hall, our only restaurant and four grain
> silos. Oh, yeah, and the tornado siren. There are no stop signs/lights
> on Main Street. I keep my horses in the heart of town and I can ride
> them right to the door of the post office if I feel like it.

"HorseS" - plural? That sounds like it is the kind of town that
would only have one horse.

--
Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
http://www.cardreport.com/
Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum

FragileWarrior

01-06-2007, 11:44 AM

> wrote in
:

> In article >,
> says...
>
>> Nope. It's just a small town in Indiana. I'm in the heart of town.
>> There's the post office, town hall, our only restaurant and four
>> grain silos. Oh, yeah, and the tornado siren. There are no stop
>> signs/lights on Main Street. I keep my horses in the heart of town
>> and I can ride them right to the door of the post office if I feel
>> like it.
>
>
> "HorseS" - plural? That sounds like it is the kind of town that
> would only have one horse.

Well, two of them can fit in my Neon so maybe it's like a one and 2/3 horse
town...

Cheryl Isaak

01-06-2007, 12:33 PM

On 5/31/07 3:02 PM, in article ,
"FragileWarrior" > wrote:

> "Michael \"Dog3\" Lonergan" > wrote in
> 6.121:
>
>>> I hope you're wearing a helmet, my friend.
>>
>> Always. And no jewelry either.
>>
>> Michael
>
> The first time I popped a helmet I had to return it for a new one and write
> a story about what had happened so they could study it. I settled for
> drawing a cartoon of Evil D'argo (complete with tiny, devil, horse-horns)
> laughing maniacally as he sucked in his gut and spun his saddle -- and me
> -- off on steep slope. I think I may even have had bounce lines to show my
> trajectory down the hillside.

I'd love to see a copy of it!
C

FragileWarrior

01-06-2007, 12:39 PM

Cheryl Isaak > wrote in
:

> On 5/31/07 3:02 PM, in article
> , "FragileWarrior"
> > wrote:
>
>> "Michael \"Dog3\" Lonergan" > wrote in
>> 6.121:
>>
>>>> I hope you're wearing a helmet, my friend.
>>>
>>> Always. And no jewelry either.
>>>
>>> Michael
>>
>> The first time I popped a helmet I had to return it for a new one and
>> write a story about what had happened so they could study it. I
>> settled for drawing a cartoon of Evil D'argo (complete with tiny,
>> devil, horse-horns) laughing maniacally as he sucked in his gut and
>> spun his saddle -- and me -- off on steep slope. I think I may even
>> have had bounce lines to show my trajectory down the hillside.
>
> I'd love to see a copy of it!
> C
>
>

Me, too. I didn't keep one. :(

Cheryl Isaak

01-06-2007, 01:35 PM

On 6/1/07 6:39 AM, in article ,
"FragileWarrior" > wrote:

> Cheryl Isaak > wrote in
> :
>
>> On 5/31/07 3:02 PM, in article
>> , "FragileWarrior"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> "Michael \"Dog3\" Lonergan" > wrote in
>>> 6.121:
>>>
>>>>> I hope you're wearing a helmet, my friend.
>>>>
>>>> Always. And no jewelry either.
>>>>
>>>> Michael
>>>
>>> The first time I popped a helmet I had to return it for a new one and
>>> write a story about what had happened so they could study it. I
>>> settled for drawing a cartoon of Evil D'argo (complete with tiny,
>>> devil, horse-horns) laughing maniacally as he sucked in his gut and
>>> spun his saddle -- and me -- off on steep slope. I think I may even
>>> have had bounce lines to show my trajectory down the hillside.
>>
>> I'd love to see a copy of it!
>> C
>>
>>
>
> Me, too. I didn't keep one. :(

What did they say when you sent the cartoon in? It does sound funny.
C

FragileWarrior

01-06-2007, 01:56 PM

Cheryl Isaak > wrote in news:C2857CAE.69919%
:

> On 6/1/07 6:39 AM, in article f3ot1c$cal$8
@blackhelicopter.databasix.com,
> "FragileWarrior" > wrote:
>
>> Cheryl Isaak > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>> On 5/31/07 3:02 PM, in article
>>> , "FragileWarrior"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Michael \"Dog3\" Lonergan" > wrote in
>>>> 6.121:
>>>>
>>>>>> I hope you're wearing a helmet, my friend.
>>>>>
>>>>> Always. And no jewelry either.
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael
>>>>
>>>> The first time I popped a helmet I had to return it for a new one
and
>>>> write a story about what had happened so they could study it. I
>>>> settled for drawing a cartoon of Evil D'argo (complete with tiny,
>>>> devil, horse-horns) laughing maniacally as he sucked in his gut and
>>>> spun his saddle -- and me -- off on steep slope. I think I may even
>>>> have had bounce lines to show my trajectory down the hillside.
>>>
>>> I'd love to see a copy of it!
>>> C
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Me, too. I didn't keep one. :(
>
> What did they say when you sent the cartoon in? It does sound funny.
> C
>
>

I thought it might make their day but they never acknowledged it. Maybe
they wanted more technical info. (Hey, that's all I could remember -- I
fell ON MY HEAD.) They did send me a new helmet but they're supposed to
do that anyway.

Cheryl Isaak

01-06-2007, 02:46 PM

On 6/1/07 7:56 AM, in article ,
"FragileWarrior" > wrote:

> Cheryl Isaak > wrote in news:C2857CAE.69919%
> :
>
>> On 6/1/07 6:39 AM, in article f3ot1c$cal$8
> @blackhelicopter.databasix.com,
>> "FragileWarrior" > wrote:
>>
>>> Cheryl Isaak > wrote in
>>> :
>>>
>>>> On 5/31/07 3:02 PM, in article
>>>> , "FragileWarrior"
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Michael \"Dog3\" Lonergan" > wrote in
>>>>> 6.121:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I hope you're wearing a helmet, my friend.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Always. And no jewelry either.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>
>>>>> The first time I popped a helmet I had to return it for a new one
> and
>>>>> write a story about what had happened so they could study it. I
>>>>> settled for drawing a cartoon of Evil D'argo (complete with tiny,
>>>>> devil, horse-horns) laughing maniacally as he sucked in his gut and
>>>>> spun his saddle -- and me -- off on steep slope. I think I may even
>>>>> have had bounce lines to show my trajectory down the hillside.
>>>>
>>>> I'd love to see a copy of it!
>>>> C
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Me, too. I didn't keep one. :(
>>
>> What did they say when you sent the cartoon in? It does sound funny.
>> C
>>
>>
>
> I thought it might make their day but they never acknowledged it. Maybe
> they wanted more technical info. (Hey, that's all I could remember -- I
> fell ON MY HEAD.) They did send me a new helmet but they're supposed to
> do that anyway.
I'll bet that someone posted in their cube.

C

Omelet

01-06-2007, 03:52 PM

Omelet

01-06-2007, 03:54 PM

In article
>,
Bill Rose > wrote:

> Not to put too fine a point on it, but fossil fuel has been out of the
> carbon cycle for a long time and is being reintroduced. Wood burned from
> last year though is just going around and around in the carbon cycle. We
> need to stop burning fossil fuel.
>
> - Bill
> Coloribus gustibus non disputatum

Absofrigginlootly! :-)

And guess what? It'd also drastically improve global air quality...
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

dr-solo@wi.rr.xx.com

01-06-2007, 04:51 PM

the algae and other plants that sucked up all the CO2, died and were buried is what
made the planet climates what they are now. There are already huge prizes being
offered for methods of sequestering CO2, essentially, CO2 scrubbers that remove CO2
from the air (CO2 is soluble in water), form a chemical reaction that removes it from
the water and then inject it back into those empty oil wells or whatever. Limestone
is calcium and magnesium carbonates, so it could also be used to make limestone
bricks to construct houses? problem is acid dissolves limestone.

and do it using non-polluting energy!!! like the sun or wind. Ingrid

> Bill Rose > wrote:
>> Not to put too fine a point on it, but fossil fuel has been out of the
>> carbon cycle for a long time and is being reintroduced. Wood burned from
>> last year though is just going around and around in the carbon cycle. We
>> need to stop burning fossil fuel.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

dr-solo@wi.rr.xx.com

01-06-2007, 05:08 PM

I am not in the lab anymore.
up to this point mother nature has been fooling with the light reaction center in
plants that soak up the photon of energy and use it to break water (water is
typically broken by running electricity thru a platinum wire). Chlorophyll is the
best (so far) at doing this, but uses only blue and red light. It is the biotech
people will start fooling with the reaction centers of chloroplasts to stick them
into a synthetic membrane and/or make a better photon grabber. Maybe layer several
different reaction centers that absorb across the whole spectrum so they are more
efficient.

hook this up with some extremely high efficiency lights over the membranes (light the
flashlights that have a little generator in them) and no need for solar light. maybe
have the choice of cranking it up to get it started, or, a good battery.

Ingrid

Omelet > wrote:
>So invent the process and make it profitable.
>You could be the next multi-billionaire...
>It really is not that hard to make Hydrogen.
>The trick is getting people to use it as a fuel, make it cost effective,
>and SAFE.

>In article >,
> wrote:>
>> the problem is, all carbon based fuels release CO2 when burned.
>> what we need is to break the hydrogen oxygen bond in water and then burn the
>> hydrogen back to water. plants do this, they use solar energy to knock the hydrogen
>> off the water, use the energy of the electrons to form a covalent bond (organic) that
>> stores the energy (using CO2). That is really clean energy. Ingrid
>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

Bill Rose

01-06-2007, 08:00 PM

In article >,
wrote:

> the algae and other plants that sucked up all the CO2, died and were buried
> is what
> made the planet climates what they are now. There are already huge prizes
> being
> offered for methods of sequestering CO2, essentially, CO2 scrubbers that
> remove CO2
> from the air (CO2 is soluble in water), form a chemical reaction that removes
> it from
> the water and then inject it back into those empty oil wells or whatever.
> Limestone
> is calcium and magnesium carbonates, so it could also be used to make
> limestone
> bricks to construct houses? problem is acid dissolves limestone.
>
> and do it using non-polluting energy!!! like the sun or wind. Ingrid

Yeah. You are right. But "bottom line" people will see that this costs
them money. They will be dragged to environmentalism, kicking and
screaming. Countries that don't clean-up will get more energy per pound
(gallon, whatever), which will put us at a disadvantage (so the spin
will go). The biggest bang for our buck that we can get RIGHT NOW is
conservation. The $10,000,000 the the knuckle head at 1600 Pennsylvania
Ave. wants (and sadly, so does Obama) to put into energy savings from
ethanol (which will be grown with petroleum) can be had for $3,000,000
and change by conservation.

The thing with fission power is (besides the massive problem of it's
waste, even in fast breeders) is that workers exposed to radiation pass
their injuries on to the following generations. If a coal miner gets
black lung, the injury dies with him. I know. It's a pretty cold
calculus.

If we could reduce CO2 and wait 30 years, there should be fusion
reactors which will be infinitely safer than coal or fission.

In the meantime conservation, water power (including tidal), wind power
and, photovoltaic could buy us time.
>
> > Bill Rose > wrote:
> >> Not to put too fine a point on it, but fossil fuel has been out of the
> >> carbon cycle for a long time and is being reintroduced. Wood burned from
> >> last year though is just going around and around in the carbon cycle. We
> >> need to stop burning fossil fuel.
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
> http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
> sign up:
> http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
> I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

- Bill
Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)

jangchub

02-06-2007, 03:46 AM

On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 08:52:36 -0500, Omelet >
wrote:

>So invent the process and make it profitable.
>You could be the next multi-billionaire...

I know you may be kidding, but the problem IS money. There is no
reason why gas is costing what it does. Oil tycoons made record
profits the last three years in a row. It's disgusting, along with
the greed and every putrid thing about it, the desire for it, the
attachment to it,etc.

Omelet

02-06-2007, 04:17 PM

In article >,
jangchub > wrote:

> On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 08:52:36 -0500, Omelet >
> wrote:
>
> >So invent the process and make it profitable.
> >You could be the next multi-billionaire...
>
> I know you may be kidding, but the problem IS money.

Only half-way.
It really IS easy to make Hydrogen.
It's one of the most abundant elements in the universe.

The oil companies have a stranglehold on the economy.
They don't WANT alternative energy and he who has the gold makes the
rules. :-(

> There is no
> reason why gas is costing what it does. Oil tycoons made record
> profits the last three years in a row.

Both true.

> It's disgusting, along with
> the greed and every putrid thing about it, the desire for it, the
> attachment to it,etc.

You are preachin' to the choir. ;-)
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

Ann

02-06-2007, 04:58 PM

Omelet > expounded:

>You are preachin' to the choir. ;-)

Yep. I think there's lots of us, but the powers-that-be don't want to
hear us :o(
--
Ann, gardening in Zone 6a
South of Boston, Massachusetts
e-mail address is not checked
******************************

Rachael Simpson

02-06-2007, 05:07 PM

"Ann" > wrote in message
...
> Omelet > expounded:
>
>>You are preachin' to the choir. ;-)
>
> Yep. I think there's lots of us, but the powers-that-be don't want to
> hear us :o(
> --
> Ann, gardening in Zone 6a
> South of Boston, Massachusetts
> e-mail address is not checked
> ******************************

AMEN!

Omelet

02-06-2007, 06:06 PM

In article >,
Ann > wrote:

> Omelet > expounded:
>
> >You are preachin' to the choir. ;-)
>
> Yep. I think there's lots of us, but the powers-that-be don't want to
> hear us :o(

They would if we could (somehow) quit buying gasoline,
but how many of us can do that?
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

jangchub

02-06-2007, 06:13 PM

On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 09:17:39 -0500, Omelet >

>You are preachin' to the choir. ;-)

I know!

jangchub

02-06-2007, 06:15 PM

On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 10:58:50 -0400, Ann > wrote:

>Omelet > expounded:
>
>>You are preachin' to the choir. ;-)
>
>Yep. I think there's lots of us, but the powers-that-be don't want to
>hear us :o(

There are a LOT more of us now than ever before. AT one time, even in
this newsgroup we were the minority. It is wonderful to see
American's finally waking up to the administration full of theft and
lies.

Bill Rose

02-06-2007, 08:09 PM

In article >,
Omelet > wrote:

> In article >,
> jangchub > wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 08:52:36 -0500, Omelet >
> > wrote:
> >
> > >So invent the process and make it profitable.
> > >You could be the next multi-billionaire...
> >
> > I know you may be kidding, but the problem IS money.
>
> Only half-way.
> It really IS easy to make Hydrogen.
> It's one of the most abundant elements in the universe.
>
> The oil companies have a stranglehold on the economy.
> They don't WANT alternative energy and he who has the gold makes the
> rules. :-(
>
> > There is no
> > reason why gas is costing what it does. Oil tycoons made record
> > profits the last three years in a row.
>
> Both true.
>
> > It's disgusting, along with
> > the greed and every putrid thing about it, the desire for it, the
> > attachment to it,etc.
>
> You are preachin' to the choir. ;-)

Two things though; (1) remember the Hindenberg (boom!) and, (2) the
First Law of Thermodynamics states that energy cannot be created or
destroyed (beware of little black boxes).

It seems that electric motors fueled by wind, water, Sun (and Earth
bound fusion) and, perhaps conventional, central, power plants where CO2
can be scrubbed from the smoke stack are the answer.

Personally, I don't need to go from 0 mph to 60 mph in 4 sec. So there
may be some adaptations we need to make but I think we can live with
that.

- Bill(y)
Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)

Omelet

02-06-2007, 08:50 PM

In article
>,
Bill Rose > wrote:

> > > It's disgusting, along with
> > > the greed and every putrid thing about it, the desire for it, the
> > > attachment to it,etc.
> >
> > You are preachin' to the choir. ;-)
>
> Two things though; (1) remember the Hindenberg (boom!) and, (2) the
> First Law of Thermodynamics states that energy cannot be created or
> destroyed (beware of little black boxes).
>
> It seems that electric motors fueled by wind, water, Sun (and Earth
> bound fusion) and, perhaps conventional, central, power plants where CO2
> can be scrubbed from the smoke stack are the answer.
>
> Personally, I don't need to go from 0 mph to 60 mph in 4 sec. So there
> may be some adaptations we need to make but I think we can live with
> that.
>
> - Bill(y)

I've lived with 4 cylinder engines all my life.

0-60 in 4 seconds?

Why? <puzzled look>
--
Peace, Om

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"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

Bill Rose

03-06-2007, 12:07 AM

In article >,
Omelet > wrote:

> In article
> >,
> Bill Rose > wrote:
>
> > > > It's disgusting, along with
> > > > the greed and every putrid thing about it, the desire for it, the
> > > > attachment to it,etc.
> > >
> > > You are preachin' to the choir. ;-)
> >
> > Two things though; (1) remember the Hindenberg (boom!) and, (2) the
> > First Law of Thermodynamics states that energy cannot be created or
> > destroyed (beware of little black boxes).
> >
> > It seems that electric motors fueled by wind, water, Sun (and Earth
> > bound fusion) and, perhaps conventional, central, power plants where CO2
> > can be scrubbed from the smoke stack are the answer.
> >
> > Personally, I don't need to go from 0 mph to 60 mph in 4 sec. So there
> > may be some adaptations we need to make but I think we can live with
> > that.
> >
> > - Bill(y)
>
> I've lived with 4 cylinder engines all my life.
>
> 0-60 in 4 seconds?
>
> Why? <puzzled look>

It's a testosterone thing. Just put it in the pile of boy things that
you've never understood. For the most part, we don't understand them
either.

y(Bill)
Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)

jangchub

03-06-2007, 12:10 AM

On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 11:09:47 -0700, Bill Rose >
wrote:

>Two things though; (1) remember the Hindenberg (boom!) and, (2) the
>First Law of Thermodynamics states that energy cannot be created or
>destroyed (beware of little black boxes).
>
>It seems that electric motors fueled by wind, water, Sun (and Earth
>bound fusion) and, perhaps conventional, central, power plants where CO2
>can be scrubbed from the smoke stack are the answer.
>
>Personally, I don't need to go from 0 mph to 60 mph in 4 sec. So there
>may be some adaptations we need to make but I think we can live with
>that.
>
>- Bill(y)
>Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)

I don't remember the Hindenberg boom, but I'm in agreement with the
rest of your statements. We've known about this for fifty years. This
gas "crisis" is such a bunch of bullshit. I read a very funny phrase
in another forum about dubya. If people are sensitive to sexual
ideas, turn away now; someone's tag line was:

I wish somebody would blow him so we could start the impeachment
process.

I found that hysterically profound!

Now, why are the two most popular hybrids made by Japan? The Ford
doesn't live up to the hype, or so I've read. If we really wanted
vehicles which get 100 miles to a gallon of gas, we could do it. We
don't need speed boats.

Maybe coming up with localization is another good way to conserve.
Build communities which have all they need within walking or biking
distance. Especially in places like Texas where land is spread far
and wide...but that too is rapidly changing.

Eh, my knee hurts.

Omelet

03-06-2007, 12:24 AM

In article
>,
Bill Rose > wrote:

> > I've lived with 4 cylinder engines all my life.
> >
> > 0-60 in 4 seconds?
> >
> > Why? <puzzled look>
>
> It's a testosterone thing. Just put it in the pile of boy things that
> you've never understood. For the most part, we don't understand them
> either.
>
> y(Bill)

<lol> ok, if you put it that way... ;-D
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

Cheryl Isaak

03-06-2007, 02:14 PM

On 6/2/07 6:07 PM, in article
, "Bill
Rose" > wrote:

> In article >,
> Omelet > wrote:
>
>> In article
>> >,
>> Bill Rose > wrote:
>>
>>>>> It's disgusting, along with
>>>>> the greed and every putrid thing about it, the desire for it, the
>>>>> attachment to it,etc.
>>>>
>>>> You are preachin' to the choir. ;-)
>>>
>>> Two things though; (1) remember the Hindenberg (boom!) and, (2) the
>>> First Law of Thermodynamics states that energy cannot be created or
>>> destroyed (beware of little black boxes).
>>>
>>> It seems that electric motors fueled by wind, water, Sun (and Earth
>>> bound fusion) and, perhaps conventional, central, power plants where CO2
>>> can be scrubbed from the smoke stack are the answer.
>>>
>>> Personally, I don't need to go from 0 mph to 60 mph in 4 sec. So there
>>> may be some adaptations we need to make but I think we can live with
>>> that.
>>>
>>> - Bill(y)
>>
>> I've lived with 4 cylinder engines all my life.
>>
>> 0-60 in 4 seconds?
>>
>> Why? <puzzled look>
>
> It's a testosterone thing. Just put it in the pile of boy things that
> you've never understood. For the most part, we don't understand them
> either.
>
> y(Bill)
> Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)
It's not all testosterone - I've enjoyed my turns in the big engines/lots of
cylinder cars that have graced friends and family. A gas to drive, but not
everyday. It's sort of like roller coasters. Love them, but not a steady
diet of them.

C

Omelet

03-06-2007, 03:42 PM

In article >,
Cheryl Isaak > wrote:

> >> I've lived with 4 cylinder engines all my life.
> >>
> >> 0-60 in 4 seconds?
> >>
> >> Why? <puzzled look>
> >
> > It's a testosterone thing. Just put it in the pile of boy things that
> > you've never understood. For the most part, we don't understand them
> > either.
> >
> > y(Bill)
> > Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)
>
> It's not all testosterone - I've enjoyed my turns in the big engines/lots of
> cylinder cars that have graced friends and family. A gas to drive, but not
> everyday. It's sort of like roller coasters. Love them, but not a steady
> diet of them.
>
> C

Ok, I can go along with that. :-)
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

Cheryl Isaak

03-06-2007, 06:11 PM

On 6/3/07 9:42 AM, in article
, "Omelet"
> wrote:

> In article >,
> Cheryl Isaak > wrote:
>
>>>> I've lived with 4 cylinder engines all my life.
>>>>
>>>> 0-60 in 4 seconds?
>>>>
>>>> Why? <puzzled look>
>>>
>>> It's a testosterone thing. Just put it in the pile of boy things that
>>> you've never understood. For the most part, we don't understand them
>>> either.
>>>
>>> y(Bill)
>>> Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)
>>
>> It's not all testosterone - I've enjoyed my turns in the big engines/lots of
>> cylinder cars that have graced friends and family. A gas to drive, but not
>> everyday. It's sort of like roller coasters. Love them, but not a steady
>> diet of them.
>>
>> C
>
> Ok, I can go along with that. :-)

I know lots of performance freaks. They all have much better mileage cars
for every day.

Cheryl

Bill Rose

03-06-2007, 07:38 PM

In article >,
Cheryl Isaak > wrote:

> On 6/3/07 9:42 AM, in article
> , "Omelet"
> > wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > Cheryl Isaak > wrote:
> >
> >>>> I've lived with 4 cylinder engines all my life.
> >>>>
> >>>> 0-60 in 4 seconds?
> >>>>
> >>>> Why? <puzzled look>
> >>>
> >>> It's a testosterone thing. Just put it in the pile of boy things that
> >>> you've never understood. For the most part, we don't understand them
> >>> either.
> >>>
> >>> y(Bill)
> >>> Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)
> >>
> >> It's not all testosterone - I've enjoyed my turns in the big engines/lots
> >> of
> >> cylinder cars that have graced friends and family. A gas to drive, but not
> >> everyday. It's sort of like roller coasters. Love them, but not a steady
> >> diet of them.
> >>
> >> C
> >
> > Ok, I can go along with that. :-)
>
> I know lots of performance freaks. They all have much better mileage cars
> for every day.
>
> Cheryl

I was stunned once (more often than that actually but this was more like
surprised) to meet a Frenchman (in France) who loved his 25 mpg American
car because it had hydraulic valve lifters and required very little
maintenance. In 1990, it cost me $50 to fill my VW van in France. Last
week, it cost me $45.

The thing with driving a sling-shot (and risking the organism) is that
it seems to be an absolute requirement that they clock in at 110
decibels as well. I know about back pressure but these things seem
engineered to say "Hey, look at me". As my BP creeps up, all I see is a
target.

- Billy
Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)

Charlie[_2_]

04-06-2007, 05:50 AM

On Sun, 03 Jun 2007 10:38:07 -0700, Bill Rose >
wrote:

>I was stunned once (more often than that actually but this was more like
>surprised) to meet a Frenchman (in France) who loved his 25 mpg American
>car because it had hydraulic valve lifters and required very little
>maintenance. In 1990, it cost me $50 to fill my VW van in France. Last
>week, it cost me $45.
>

Whaaaat? You are still driving a VW bus?

Ohhhhh.....the sweet memories!

Peace Brother
Charlie

Bill Rose

04-06-2007, 06:16 AM

In article >, Charlie wrote:

> On Sun, 03 Jun 2007 10:38:07 -0700, Bill Rose >
> wrote:
>
> >I was stunned once (more often than that actually but this was more like
> >surprised) to meet a Frenchman (in France) who loved his 25 mpg American
> >car because it had hydraulic valve lifters and required very little
> >maintenance. In 1990, it cost me $50 to fill my VW van in France. Last
> >week, it cost me $45.
> >
>
> Whaaaat? You are still driving a VW bus?
>
> Ohhhhh.....the sweet memories!
>
> Peace Brother
> Charlie

What can I say? When I work, it is mein schlaftwagon. During lunch I
take my nap. I work until I'm tired (2 P.M. or so) and then I take my
lunch (siesta, 25 min.) and then I'm good for another 6 hr. Why do you
think people have VW vans. Motel rooms on wheels for the first 20 yr.
Crash pads for the next 20 yr.

- Billy
Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)

FarmI

04-06-2007, 09:29 AM

"Bill Rose" > wrote in message

> In 1990, it cost me $50 to fill my VW van in France. Last
> week, it cost me $45.

Aaaah. A man with style. We just missed out buying one on the weekend. It
was a beauty. We've been looking for one for months. 1976, in immaculate
condition except that it needed a clutch adjustment. Sadly not to be.

dr-solo@wi.rr.xx.com

04-06-2007, 03:21 PM

well.... we have one sports car, one gas efficient mazda and a trailer for when we
need to haul stuff instead of an SUV or van. we moved into the city and DH is now 1
mile from work, I am 5 miles. no more big commutes. we shop locally and I mostly
buy online so there arent a lot of shopping trips. we dont do "car" vacations and
long trips. our gasoline needs have really dropped. Ingrid

Omelet > wrote:
>They would if we could (somehow) quit buying gasoline,
>but how many of us can do that?

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Omelet

04-06-2007, 04:55 PM

In article >,
wrote:

> well.... we have one sports car, one gas efficient mazda and a trailer for
> when we
> need to haul stuff instead of an SUV or van. we moved into the city and DH
> is now 1
> mile from work, I am 5 miles. no more big commutes. we shop locally and I
> mostly
> buy online so there arent a lot of shopping trips. we dont do "car"
> vacations and
> long trips. our gasoline needs have really dropped. Ingrid

I can't move closer to work. It's not practical so I use close to 2
gallons per day during my commute.

But I make sure that I do most of my shopping on the way home from work
as a slightly different route will pass me thru town on the way home,
and shopping trips to Austin are severely limited.

I'm on vacation this week and won't be going anywhere. I have too much
to do here anyway. ;-)

I also shop by phone somewhat before going out so I can make just one
trip to one store.

I don't like to shop on line as credit card interest rates are too high
so I limit their use to what I can pay off each month.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

Billy Rose

04-06-2007, 06:50 PM

In article
>,
"FarmI" <ask@itshall be given> wrote:

> "Bill Rose" > wrote in message
>
> > In 1990, it cost me $50 to fill my VW van in France. Last
> > week, it cost me $45.
>
> Aaaah. A man with style. We just missed out buying one on the weekend. It
> was a beauty. We've been looking for one for months. 1976, in immaculate
> condition except that it needed a clutch adjustment. Sadly not to be.

Thanks for the kind words. I've always heard that those air cooled vans
had lots of problems. Not so? I've had lots of interests in my life but
cars were never one of them, until it broke.

The Westphalia was always my favorite. A person was always ready for a
picnic.

Take care,

Billy
Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)

Cheryl Isaak

04-06-2007, 07:35 PM

On 6/4/07 12:50 PM, in article
, "Billy
Rose" > wrote:

> In article
> >,
> "FarmI" <ask@itshall be given> wrote:
>
>> "Bill Rose" > wrote in message
>>
>>> In 1990, it cost me $50 to fill my VW van in France. Last
>>> week, it cost me $45.
>>
>> Aaaah. A man with style. We just missed out buying one on the weekend. It
>> was a beauty. We've been looking for one for months. 1976, in immaculate
>> condition except that it needed a clutch adjustment. Sadly not to be.
>
> Thanks for the kind words. I've always heard that those air cooled vans
> had lots of problems. Not so? I've had lots of interests in my life but
> cars were never one of them, until it broke.
I began interested in cars at a young age -14. Looking back, I think was the
car, not the guy that was my "first love". (a forest green 1969 Mustang
convertible)
>
> The Westphalia was always my favorite. A person was always ready for a
> picnic.
>
Those were fun. A girlfriend had one - crammed a lot of stuff or people or
both in to a few times.

C

Jan Flora

05-06-2007, 02:15 PM

In article >,
Omelet > wrote:

> In article >,
> wrote:
>
> > well.... we have one sports car, one gas efficient mazda and a trailer for
> > when we
> > need to haul stuff instead of an SUV or van. we moved into the city and DH
> > is now 1
> > mile from work, I am 5 miles. no more big commutes. we shop locally and I
> > mostly
> > buy online so there arent a lot of shopping trips. we dont do "car"
> > vacations and
> > long trips. our gasoline needs have really dropped. Ingrid
>
> I can't move closer to work. It's not practical so I use close to 2
> gallons per day during my commute.
>
> But I make sure that I do most of my shopping on the way home from work
> as a slightly different route will pass me thru town on the way home,
> and shopping trips to Austin are severely limited.
>
> I'm on vacation this week and won't be going anywhere. I have too much
> to do here anyway. ;-)
>
> I also shop by phone somewhat before going out so I can make just one
> trip to one store.
>
> I don't like to shop on line as credit card interest rates are too high
> so I limit their use to what I can pay off each month.

Get a debit card. No interest. We got one just for shopping online and
on ebay. (We don't believe in credit cards.)

Jan

--
Bedouin proverb: If you have no troubles, buy a goat.

Omelet

05-06-2007, 03:55 PM

In article >,
Jan Flora > wrote:

> > I don't like to shop on line as credit card interest rates are too high
> > so I limit their use to what I can pay off each month.
>
> Get a debit card. No interest. We got one just for shopping online and
> on ebay. (We don't believe in credit cards.)
>
> Jan

I do have a debit card.

It's not recommended that a debit card be used for on line purchases as
there is no way to recover the funds if there is a problem. Once the
money is gone, it's gone.

Credit card purchases have their own built in warantee.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

Ann

05-06-2007, 06:44 PM

Omelet > expounded:

>
>I do have a debit card.
>
>It's not recommended that a debit card be used for on line purchases as
>there is no way to recover the funds if there is a problem. Once the
>money is gone, it's gone.
>
>Credit card purchases have their own built in warantee.

That depends. My debit card is a MasterCard, and it has all the
protection of a credit card. And I've had to use that protection in
the past, so I know it works.
--
Ann, gardening in Zone 6a
South of Boston, Massachusetts
e-mail address is not checked
******************************

Omelet

05-06-2007, 06:49 PM

In article >,
Ann > wrote:

> Omelet > expounded:
>
> >
> >I do have a debit card.
> >
> >It's not recommended that a debit card be used for on line purchases as
> >there is no way to recover the funds if there is a problem. Once the
> >money is gone, it's gone.
> >
> >Credit card purchases have their own built in warantee.
>
> That depends. My debit card is a MasterCard, and it has all the
> protection of a credit card. And I've had to use that protection in
> the past, so I know it works.

Ok, that's good info, thanks!
My debit card is a visa.

I'll have to talk to my bank. I am new to debit cards.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

Rachael Simpson

05-06-2007, 07:01 PM

"Omelet" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Ann > wrote:
>
>> Omelet > expounded:
>>
>> >
>> >I do have a debit card.
>> >
>> >It's not recommended that a debit card be used for on line purchases as
>> >there is no way to recover the funds if there is a problem. Once the
>> >money is gone, it's gone.
>> >
>> >Credit card purchases have their own built in warantee.
>>
>> That depends. My debit card is a MasterCard, and it has all the
>> protection of a credit card. And I've had to use that protection in
>> the past, so I know it works.
>
> Ok, that's good info, thanks!
> My debit card is a visa.
>
> I'll have to talk to my bank. I am new to debit cards.
> --
> Peace, Om
>
> Remove _ to validate e-mails.
>
> "My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack
> Nicholson

Mine is has the visa logo also. Any debit cards with a major credit card
logo have the same perks as a credit without all the downfalls. or that's
the way it works around here anyway. definitely check with your bank - but
if you have the logo - you should be fine.

rae

Omelet

05-06-2007, 07:07 PM

In article >,
"Rachael Simpson" > wrote:

> Mine is has the visa logo also. Any debit cards with a major credit card
> logo have the same perks as a credit without all the downfalls. or that's
> the way it works around here anyway. definitely check with your bank - but
> if you have the logo - you should be fine.
>
> rae

Thanks again. :-)

I have managed to pay off all of my credit card debt and am trying to
totally avoid using them at all. Interest rates are usery!
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

Not@home

06-06-2007, 10:38 PM

Before I retired I was a lawyer, and did some research concerning this.

The federal law that provides the protection for credit cards covered
only credit cards.

I think the very similar protections given with debit cards, even those
bearing a credit card logo, are given by the issuing institution, not by
the law.

I believe that with using the credit card, the credit card companies
hold a certain amount that has been charged against the merchant, rather
than paying everything to the merchant right away, so it is fairly easy
for the credit card company to return your money from this withholding,
when a charge is shown to be invalid.

I don't know what the current procedure is with debit cards, but if
recovery is under the control of the issuing bank, they may be more
reluctant to make a final determination in your favor, if they don't
have that cushion of money due the merchant, and they may not have the
massive staff that the credit card companies maintain to deal with such
situations.

I don't personally know anyone who has not gotten their money back from
a debit card transaction, who deserved it. But at the same time, most
of the people I know don't use a debit card (other than the ATM component).

As long as one can fully pay off what one charges on the credit card, I
see no advantage to the debit card. In fact, since the debit card
releases your money immediately, while the credit card usually has a
rather substantial period before your payment is due, you can earn a
little interest on your money by using the credit card (hardly enough to
get rich on, though).

So I remain a little leery of using a debit card. particularly in a
transaction that is not face to face. Perhaps eventually I will grow
more accepting. Right now, I see no advantage to the debit card.

Ann wrote:
> Omelet > expounded:
>
>> I do have a debit card.
>>
>> It's not recommended that a debit card be used for on line purchases as
>> there is no way to recover the funds if there is a problem. Once the
>> money is gone, it's gone.
>>
>> Credit card purchases have their own built in warantee.
>
> That depends. My debit card is a MasterCard, and it has all the
> protection of a credit card. And I've had to use that protection in
> the past, so I know it works.

Ann

07-06-2007, 02:40 AM

"Not@home" > expounded:

>So I remain a little leery of using a debit card. particularly in a
>transaction that is not face to face. Perhaps eventually I will grow
>more accepting. Right now, I see no advantage to the debit card.

I will check with my bank tomorrow when they're open and post here
what they say.
--
Ann, gardening in Zone 6a
South of Boston, Massachusetts
e-mail address is not checked
******************************

Ann

08-06-2007, 12:59 PM

Ann > expounded:

>"Not@home" > expounded:
>
>>So I remain a little leery of using a debit card. particularly in a
>>transaction that is not face to face. Perhaps eventually I will grow
>>more accepting. Right now, I see no advantage to the debit card.
>
>I will check with my bank tomorrow when they're open and post here
>what they say.

Ok, I checked with my bank (actually a federal credit union). They
use the dispute reconciliation system set up by MasterCard, which is
the credit card company that issues the debit cards. The credit union
is responsible monetarily for reimbursing, etc. but MC 'polices' the
process, so the same protection is extended to the debit card holder
as a credit card holder. At least that is how it was explained to me.
I don't really care who backs it up, as long as it is backed up - and
it has been for me.
--
Ann, gardening in Zone 6a
South of Boston, Massachusetts
e-mail address is not checked
******************************

Lorenzo L. Love

10-06-2007, 03:02 AM

On Thu, 31 May 2007 13:58:37 -0700, > wrote:

> the problem is, all carbon based fuels release CO2 when burned.
>
> what we need is to break the hydrogen oxygen bond in water and then burn
> the hydrogen
> back to water. plants do this, they use solar energy to knock the
> hydrogen off the
> water, use the energy of the electrons to form a covalent bond (organic)
> that stores
> the energy (using CO2). That is really clean energy.
>
> Ingrid
>

That sounds nice but it costs significantly more to extract hydrogen from
water then to produce it any other way. The most economical way at present
to produce hydrogen on a massive scale is steam reforming of the methane
in natural gas or coal gas in which the gas is combined with superheated
steam, releasing hydrogen and carbon dioxide. CH4+2H2O=4H2+CO2 if I got my
chemistry right. This is the Bush hydrogen initiative. No improvement in
carbon dioxide emissions, but it would be a boon for the natural gas and
coal industries. And that's the real point of it.

Lorenzo L. Love
http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove

"Choose your leaders with wisdom and forethought. To be led by a coward is
to be controlled by all that the coward fears. To be led by a fool is to
be led by the opportunists who control the fool. To be led by a thief is
to offer up your most precious treasures to be stolen. To be led by a liar
is to ask to be lied to. To be led by a tyrant is to sell yourself and
those you love into slavery."
Octavia Butler

dr-solo@wi.rr.com

10-06-2007, 04:57 PM

plants do it very economically. we just need to figure out how to
replicate it, probably using variations on the organic enzymes plants
use and do it in vitro. Ingrid

On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 01:02:40 GMT, "Lorenzo L. Love"
> wrote:

>On Thu, 31 May 2007 13:58:37 -0700, > wrote:
>
>> the problem is, all carbon based fuels release CO2 when burned.
>>
>> what we need is to break the hydrogen oxygen bond in water and then burn
>> the hydrogen
>> back to water. plants do this, they use solar energy to knock the
>> hydrogen off the
>> water, use the energy of the electrons to form a covalent bond (organic)
>> that stores
>> the energy (using CO2). That is really clean energy.
>>
>> Ingrid
>>
>
>That sounds nice but it costs significantly more to extract hydrogen from
>water then to produce it any other way. The most economical way at present
>to produce hydrogen on a massive scale is steam reforming of the methane
>in natural gas or coal gas in which the gas is combined with superheated
>steam, releasing hydrogen and carbon dioxide. CH4+2H2O=4H2+CO2 if I got my
>chemistry right. This is the Bush hydrogen initiative. No improvement in
>carbon dioxide emissions, but it would be a boon for the natural gas and
>coal industries. And that's the real point of it.
>
>Lorenzo L. Love
>http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove
>
>"Choose your leaders with wisdom and forethought. To be led by a coward is
>to be controlled by all that the coward fears. To be led by a fool is to
>be led by the opportunists who control the fool. To be led by a thief is
>to offer up your most precious treasures to be stolen. To be led by a liar
>is to ask to be lied to. To be led by a tyrant is to sell yourself and
>those you love into slavery."
> Octavia Butler

Billy Rose

10-06-2007, 06:10 PM

In article >,
wrote:

> plants do it very economically. we just need to figure out how to
> replicate it, probably using variations on the organic enzymes plants
> use and do it in vitro. Ingrid
>
> On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 01:02:40 GMT, "Lorenzo L. Love"
> > wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 31 May 2007 13:58:37 -0700, > wrote:
> >
> >> the problem is, all carbon based fuels release CO2 when burned.
> >>
> >> what we need is to break the hydrogen oxygen bond in water and then burn
> >> the hydrogen
> >> back to water. plants do this, they use solar energy to knock the
> >> hydrogen off the
> >> water, use the energy of the electrons to form a covalent bond (organic)
> >> that stores
> >> the energy (using CO2). That is really clean energy.
> >>
> >> Ingrid
> >>
> >
> >That sounds nice but it costs significantly more to extract hydrogen from
> >water then to produce it any other way. The most economical way at present
> >to produce hydrogen on a massive scale is steam reforming of the methane
> >in natural gas or coal gas in which the gas is combined with superheated
> >steam, releasing hydrogen and carbon dioxide. CH4+2H2O=4H2+CO2 if I got my
> >chemistry right. This is the Bush hydrogen initiative. No improvement in
> >carbon dioxide emissions, but it would be a boon for the natural gas and
> >coal industries. And that's the real point of it.
> >
> >Lorenzo L. Love
> >http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove
> >
> >"Choose your leaders with wisdom and forethought. To be led by a coward is
> >to be controlled by all that the coward fears. To be led by a fool is to
> >be led by the opportunists who control the fool. To be led by a thief is
> >to offer up your most precious treasures to be stolen. To be led by a liar
> >is to ask to be lied to. To be led by a tyrant is to sell yourself and
> >those you love into slavery."
> > Octavia Butler

If you are planing on using the Citric Acid Cycle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citric_acid_cycle to power your car, you
can plan on zipping along at the speed of a growing plant. CO2 release
is only a problem if you add to the atmospheric load of CO2. CO2 already
exists in the atmosphere where it is part of the CO2 Cycle
http://www.google.com/search?q=CO2+cycle&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.m
ozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a . The Problem is in increasing
the amount of CO2 by the introduction of fossil fuels. Working within
the CO2 Cycle is a zero sum games with no CO2 increase.

H2 + O2 is a great source for energy but I don't think you want a
pressurized cylinder of it under the back seat of your car. If H2 could
be produced as needed, it may be safe (depending on the process).
Electric cars powered by central power stations across a grid would, to
me, make the most sense for daily needs. This would allow CO2 scrubbing
of smoke stacks to eliminate CO2 from being returned to the atmosphere
and allow the use of bio-mass for fuel.

Fossil fuel is the enemy.

- Billy
Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)

dr-solo@wi.rr.com

11-06-2007, 05:46 PM

not citric acid, not electron transport. use first stage of light
reaction in photosynthesis. H2O + photon ->2 H+ and electrons and O

I am thinking more about make the hydrogen as you go AND have some
kind of storage for the hydrogen that is more stable, like H2CO3 <=>
H+ and HCO3. The actual electrons are what fuels ATP production
during the light cycle so electrons can be stored.
Ingrid

On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 09:10:13 -0700, Billy Rose >
wrote:
>If you are planing on using the Citric Acid Cycle
>H2 + O2 is a great source for energy but I don't think you want a
>pressurized cylinder of it under the back seat of your car.

Billy Rose

11-06-2007, 09:35 PM

In article >,
wrote:

> not citric acid, not electron transport. use first stage of light
> reaction in photosynthesis. H2O + photon ->2 H+ and electrons and O

You mean
2 H2O + 2 NADP+ + 2 ADP + 2 Pi + light --> 2 NADPH + 2 H+ + 2 ATP + O2 ?
That is a mess of wet chemistry, you have in mind guy/girl.
Another way would be, by definition an acid releases H2 when it comes in
contact with a metal (yeah, there are a few exotics, but hyronium donors
do) but then there is the problem of all that acid sloshing around in
the vehicle. Seems to me, photovoltaic and a battery would be more
practical. Even more practical would be the electric plug in vehicle.
For the real hard core, we could go back to the Stanely Steamers. Then
Frag could just dry out some pasture pastries, toss 'em in the burner,
and sail off down the road. No fossil fuel. Might smell a little funky
though.

I think I have a recent article around here, some where, on H2 storage.
Lemme git back to ya.

- Billy
Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)
>
> I am thinking more about make the hydrogen as you go AND have some
> kind of storage for the hydrogen that is more stable, like H2CO3 <=>
> H+ and HCO3. The actual electrons are what fuels ATP production
> during the light cycle so electrons can be stored.
> Ingrid
>
> On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 09:10:13 -0700, Billy Rose >
> wrote:
> >If you are planing on using the Citric Acid Cycle
> >H2 + O2 is a great source for energy but I don't think you want a
> >pressurized cylinder of it under the back seat of your car.

dr-solo@wi.rr.com

12-06-2007, 04:22 PM

electrical plugs just put off the problem. somebody somewhere gotta
burn something to make the electricity. if they are making hydrogen
from water, fine, if it is nuclear less than ideal.

platinum is typically used to catalyze the splitting of water, used
with an electrical current in an ionic but not necessarily acidic
environment. Ingrid

On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 12:35:35 -0700, Billy Rose >
wrote:
Even more practical would be the electric plug in vehicle.

Billy Rose

12-06-2007, 06:08 PM

In article >,
wrote:

> electrical plugs just put off the problem. somebody somewhere gotta
> burn something to make the electricity.

True, but then you can use bio-mass and your not burning fossil fuel.
Additionally, you have the option of scrubbing the smoke stack to
sequester the CO2 and reduce the over all amount in the atmosphere.

> if they are making hydrogen from water, fine, if it is nuclear less than ideal.

About as far as you can get from ideal, IMHO. In 30 - 40 years, fusion
reactors should be viable with lots of safe, clean energy. Why mess up
the planet for a 40 year fix, when it creates more problems than it
solves?
>
> platinum is typically used to catalyze the splitting of water, used
> with an electrical current in an ionic but not necessarily acidic
> environment.

The April '07 issue of Scientific American addresses the issue of
hydrogen storage. The choices are (1) compressed hyrdogen, (2) liquid
hydrogen (Ever see the demonstration where they dip a rose into liquid
helium? Same kinda deal) (3) reversible "hydrogen metal hydrides" (they
generate H+ in response to heat and a catalyst and, they need to be
removed to recharge) and (4) "hydrogen adsorbents" that work like
sponges (don't need to be removed to recharge but research just
beginning).

Unfortunately, the full article isn't available on line without a
subscription but you could find it at the library and, the graphics are
very helpful in helping understand the problems involved.

> Ingrid
>
> On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 12:35:35 -0700, Billy Rose >

- Billy
Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)
> wrote:
> Even more practical would be the electric plug in vehicle.
>

Dan L.

12-06-2007, 09:57 PM

Hmmm .... My 2 cents.

My thinking goes likes this.

I like my modern technological life. I like my computers, cars, lights,
HBO and modern medical techniques. I refuse to live in a cave. Street
maybe, if I keep spending the way I am :)

Solar and wind energy together is too expensive for the small amount of
electricity one receives. In order to get large amounts of energy one
has to destroy something to get it: be it coal, nuclear, Fusion is just
a dream a false hope, wood or any other agricultural source. If one (ok
the world) uses agricultural sources, bread will be twenty dollars a
loaf, greater starvation among the populated world.

Coal, CO2 scrubbers still leaves toxic waste in our land fills.
Hydrogen, needs electricity to extract from water. Bio-mass -
Agicultural, kiss all forest good-by, not just the rain forest.

If .... If and only if they can make them safe and put its waste in
outer space, are the breeder nuclear reactors. "The old saying - Is
anything safe? NO".

The only way to have a clean, healthy earth for everyone on this planet,
IS POPULATION REDUCTION. ie: make bombs not babies (ok, ok, forget the
reverse pun of the sixty's vietnam) just stop breeding like humans.

However, not sure of the future. My next truck will have an E85 engine.
I have read some where that all one has to do is combine 85 gallons of
ethanal with 15 gallons of regular gas. Buy a still, I have the 10 acres
of land to raise corn and have 6 acres of woods (energy source for the
still).

Its all about me, let the world starve. Conservation is a lost cause
without population reduction. I am single with no kids. With no social
life one has the time to do the things listed above.

So I agree with the original poster:
Home Gardening "is" Becoming Even More Imperative.

Enjoy Life ......... Dan.

In article
>,
Billy Rose > wrote:

> In article >,
> wrote:
>
> > electrical plugs just put off the problem. somebody somewhere gotta
> > burn something to make the electricity.
>
> True, but then you can use bio-mass and your not burning fossil fuel.
> Additionally, you have the option of scrubbing the smoke stack to
> sequester the CO2 and reduce the over all amount in the atmosphere.
>
> > if they are making hydrogen from water, fine, if it is nuclear less than
> > ideal.
>
> About as far as you can get from ideal, IMHO. In 30 - 40 years, fusion
> reactors should be viable with lots of safe, clean energy. Why mess up
> the planet for a 40 year fix, when it creates more problems than it
> solves?
> >
> > platinum is typically used to catalyze the splitting of water, used
> > with an electrical current in an ionic but not necessarily acidic
> > environment.
>
> The April '07 issue of Scientific American addresses the issue of
> hydrogen storage. The choices are (1) compressed hyrdogen, (2) liquid
> hydrogen (Ever see the demonstration where they dip a rose into liquid
> helium? Same kinda deal) (3) reversible "hydrogen metal hydrides" (they
> generate H+ in response to heat and a catalyst and, they need to be
> removed to recharge) and (4) "hydrogen adsorbents" that work like
> sponges (don't need to be removed to recharge but research just
> beginning).
>
> Unfortunately, the full article isn't available on line without a
> subscription but you could find it at the library and, the graphics are
> very helpful in helping understand the problems involved.
>
> > Ingrid
> >
> > On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 12:35:35 -0700, Billy Rose >
>
> - Billy
> Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)
> > wrote:
> > Even more practical would be the electric plug in vehicle.
> >

--
Email "dan lehr at comcast dot net". Text only or goes to trash automatically.

Billy Rose

12-06-2007, 11:41 PM

In article
>,
"Dan L." > wrote:

> Hmmm .... My 2 cents.
Uh, nice string of pronouncements Dan. Usually it is nice if you can
give them a little authority, names, places, logic based on an
acceptable premise. You know, something like that would have been nice,
instead of coming down the mountain with your clay tablets. (Yeah, I
know, sarcastic, people have told me that.
>
> My thinking goes likes this.
>
> I like my modern technological life. I like my computers, cars, lights,
> HBO and modern medical techniques. I refuse to live in a cave. Street
> maybe, if I keep spending the way I am :)
Keep your technology but Americans presently use 25% of the worlds
energy. That will change. We can look forward to a diminished way of
life. Sorry Dave. (Jeeze, I sound like Hal, the computer) The
alternative is to send out the troops with bayonets fixed and subjugate
the world. Since we are not alone in the nuclear club, some of those
suckers may not want to go down easily. How do you feel about trying to
swim in the non-radioactive end of the pool?
>
> Solar and wind energy together is too expensive for the small amount of
> electricity one receives. In order to get large amounts of energy one
> has to destroy something to get it: be it coal, nuclear, Fusion is just
> a dream a false hope, wood or any other agricultural source. If one (ok
> the world) uses agricultural sources, bread will be twenty dollars a
> loaf, greater starvation among the populated world.

Presently, wind, photovoltaic, and hydro power (including tides) is too
little and more expensive than fossil fuel (if you don't count the
social impact of global warming i.e. our extinction). Someone must have
forgotten to tell the international consortium that is constructing a
fusion reactor in France that Dave said it couldn't be done. Scrubbing
smoke stacks with water and calcium hydroxide Ca(OH)2 gives you calcium
carbonate and water. Chalk, Dave, chalk doesn't sound so polluting, does
it?

We are already over producing food (look at you waistline) and
demographics say that the population of the planet should drop to
replacement levels by 2050. Western Europe has been encouraging it's
citizens to have more babies because the indigenous populations are
declining. Pretty much the same deal for all industrialized nations.
>
> Coal, CO2 scrubbers still leaves toxic waste in our land fills.
> Hydrogen, needs electricity to extract from water. Bio-mass -
> Agicultural, kiss all forest good-by, not just the rain forest.
There is even a new nut being introduced into Africa as a crop that
grows well on dry marginally useful agricultural land that is 40% oil.
We can keep our forests. Need to plant more actually. Maybe you will
have to do without quite so much beef. That's all.
>
> If .... If and only if they can make them safe and put its waste in
> outer space, are the breeder nuclear reactors. "The old saying - Is
> anything safe? NO".
Great way to live, with the sword of Damocles hanging over our heads.
Thanks, but no. Fission can be buffed, tweaked, and polished but it is
just too freaking dangerous. That argument aside, how are you going to
transfer the energy down, by microwaves and fry migratory birds?
>
> The only way to have a clean, healthy earth for everyone on this planet,
> IS POPULATION REDUCTION. ie: make bombs not babies (ok, ok, forget the
> reverse pun of the sixty's vietnam) just stop breeding like humans.
See above. Large families only make sense in in subsistence farming.
>
> However, not sure of the future. My next truck will have an E85 engine.
> I have read some where that all one has to do is combine 85 gallons of
> ethanal with 15 gallons of regular gas. Buy a still, I have the 10 acres
> of land to raise corn and have 6 acres of woods (energy source for the
> still).
You haven't been reading this new group long, have you? Corn is grown
with natural gas and petroleum. It is not efficient unless you are an
oil company but not for consumers.
>
> Its all about me, let the world starve. Conservation is a lost cause
> without population reduction. I am single with no kids. With no social
> life one has the time to do the things listed above.
A Cassandra in the wilderness, wandering in a hopeless quest, fade to
black, the lights come up and everybody stands and goes home. Quite a
martyr syndrome you have there Dave.

You really need to lighten up there Dave. Ya know. Girls really like
guys that can make them laugh.
>
> So I agree with the original poster:
> Home Gardening "is" Becoming Even More Imperative.
>
> Enjoy Life ......... Dan.
I will. Thanks Dave. You really should read a book about this stuff some
day. Life is a tight rope, but it's doable.

>
> In article
> >,
> Billy Rose > wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > wrote:
> >
> > > electrical plugs just put off the problem. somebody somewhere gotta
> > > burn something to make the electricity.
> >
> > True, but then you can use bio-mass and your not burning fossil fuel.
> > Additionally, you have the option of scrubbing the smoke stack to
> > sequester the CO2 and reduce the over all amount in the atmosphere.
> >
> > > if they are making hydrogen from water, fine, if it is nuclear less than
> > > ideal.
> >
> > About as far as you can get from ideal, IMHO. In 30 - 40 years, fusion
> > reactors should be viable with lots of safe, clean energy. Why mess up
> > the planet for a 40 year fix, when it creates more problems than it
> > solves?
> > >
> > > platinum is typically used to catalyze the splitting of water, used
> > > with an electrical current in an ionic but not necessarily acidic
> > > environment.
> >
> > The April '07 issue of Scientific American addresses the issue of
> > hydrogen storage. The choices are (1) compressed hyrdogen, (2) liquid
> > hydrogen (Ever see the demonstration where they dip a rose into liquid
> > helium? Same kinda deal) (3) reversible "hydrogen metal hydrides" (they
> > generate H+ in response to heat and a catalyst and, they need to be
> > removed to recharge) and (4) "hydrogen adsorbents" that work like
> > sponges (don't need to be removed to recharge but research just
> > beginning).
> >
> > Unfortunately, the full article isn't available on line without a
> > subscription but you could find it at the library and, the graphics are
> > very helpful in helping understand the problems involved.
> >
> > > Ingrid
> > >
> > > On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 12:35:35 -0700, Billy Rose >
> >
- Billy
Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)

Pan Ohco

13-06-2007, 12:01 AM

On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 09:08:18 -0700, Billy Rose >
wrote:

>
>About as far as you can get from ideal, IMHO. In 30 - 40 years, fusion
>reactors should be viable with lots of safe, clean energy. Why mess up
>the planet for a 40 year fix, when it creates more problems than it
>solves?

A quick question. Is there a possibility of using waste from nuclear
plants as fuel for fusion plants?

Billy Rose

13-06-2007, 12:43 AM

In article >,
Pan Ohco > wrote:

> On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 09:08:18 -0700, Billy Rose >
> wrote:
>
>
> >
> >About as far as you can get from ideal, IMHO. In 30 - 40 years, fusion
> >reactors should be viable with lots of safe, clean energy. Why mess up
> >the planet for a 40 year fix, when it creates more problems than it
> >solves?
>
> A quick question. Is there a possibility of using waste from nuclear
> plants as fuel for fusion plants?

No. Fusion uses deuterium (an isotope of hydrogen). Two deuterium under
extremely high pressure and heat to fuse together to become a molecule
of helium. Two deuterium atoms have more mass than a single helium atom
and according to the famous equation, E=m(CxC), the difference in mass
is converted to energy. If the magnetic containment field for a fusion
reactor were to collapse, the reactants would hit the wall of the
containment building, cool, and become harmless. I believe there is some
issue with tritium (another isotope of hydrogen) but it is of a minor
concern when compared to fission reactions.

- Billy
Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)

Billy Rose

13-06-2007, 02:59 AM

In article
>,
Billy Rose > wrote:

> Two deuterium under
> extremely high pressure and heat to fuse together to become a molecule
> of helium.

Ahem,
that should have read as, "Two deuterium under extremely high pressure
and heat to fuse together to become an ATOM of helium."

OK, everybody back to sleep.

- Billy
Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)

Omelet

13-06-2007, 03:11 AM

In article
>,
"Dan L." > wrote:

> The only way to have a clean, healthy earth for everyone on this planet,
> IS POPULATION REDUCTION. ie: make bombs not babies (ok, ok, forget the
> reverse pun of the sixty's vietnam) just stop breeding like humans.

That was punny. :-)

And I agree that overpopulation is a serious problem, but China's answer
was not the one.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

Omelet

13-06-2007, 03:13 AM

In article
>,
Billy Rose > wrote:

> Presently, wind, photovoltaic, and hydro power (including tides) is too
> little and more expensive than fossil fuel (if you don't count the
> social impact of global warming i.e. our extinction). Someone must have
> forgotten to tell the international consortium that is constructing a
> fusion reactor in France that Dave said it couldn't be done. Scrubbing
> smoke stacks with water and calcium hydroxide Ca(OH)2 gives you calcium
> carbonate and water. Chalk, Dave, chalk doesn't sound so polluting, does
> it?

I vote we try for geothermal.
Why can't we harvest volcanos? :-)

Hydroelectric building dams is not a bad idea either, but there goes the
environmental impact again...

Let's outlaw incandescent lightbulbs while we are at it!
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

Omelet

13-06-2007, 03:15 AM

Omelet

13-06-2007, 03:16 AM

In article
>,
Billy Rose > wrote:

> In article >,
> Pan Ohco > wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 09:08:18 -0700, Billy Rose >
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> > >
> > >About as far as you can get from ideal, IMHO. In 30 - 40 years, fusion
> > >reactors should be viable with lots of safe, clean energy. Why mess up
> > >the planet for a 40 year fix, when it creates more problems than it
> > >solves?
> >
> > A quick question. Is there a possibility of using waste from nuclear
> > plants as fuel for fusion plants?
>
> No. Fusion uses deuterium (an isotope of hydrogen). Two deuterium under
> extremely high pressure and heat to fuse together to become a molecule
> of helium. Two deuterium atoms have more mass than a single helium atom
> and according to the famous equation, E=m(CxC), the difference in mass
> is converted to energy. If the magnetic containment field for a fusion
> reactor were to collapse, the reactants would hit the wall of the
> containment building, cool, and become harmless. I believe there is some
> issue with tritium (another isotope of hydrogen) but it is of a minor
> concern when compared to fission reactions.
>
> - Billy
> Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)

Anyone see Spiderman 2?
Do we really want to be creating miniature suns in our atmosphere? :-)

Nevermind... that was fiction and a poor attempt at humor...
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

Persephone

13-06-2007, 09:10 AM

On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 15:57:49 -0400, "Dan L."
> wrote:

[...]

> Bio-mass -
>Agicultural, kiss all forest good-by, not just the rain forest.

[...]

Whoa, podner. Why drag the rain forest into this discussion.
It has enough problems already!

Industrial hemp might be the answer.

My credentials: Your correspondent hasn't smoked a joint since the
60's-that-were-really-the-70's. I have no illusions that growing
hemp would turn everybody on; in fact what you'd have to go through to
get high on industrial hemp doesn't bear examining <g>.

Doesn't it seem a teeny bit self-serving of candidates and the
un-informed media to keep plugging corn-as-fuel with all the downsides
repeatedly enumerated even in the pop media,*

I'm not just talking about relatively low mileage; what about jacking
up the price for cultures whose basic food comes from corn.

* (not the most serious of which is that I can't find corn oil which
I've used for cooking since forever...)

This non-examination of industrial hemp as a source for automotive
fuel is 1000% based on the enthusiastic propaganda of Big Oil,
pandering to Bush's religious-nut "base", as well as to the general
ignorance of Joe/Jane Beercan, who don't differentiate between
marijuana and its industrial big sister, which has been used since
pre-Biblical times for everything from cloth to oil. It grows on any
kind of ground; requires almost no attention; is self-renewing.;
doesn't drive up the price of a basic food like corn by diverting
part of the crop to the Quixotic search for alternative fuel.

Read up on this. There are many titles out there on the subject (full
disclosure: one of which I edited) which paint a dismaying picture of
how Big Oil/Auto and Puritanical racists many decades ago managed to
push through legislation confabulating industrial hemp with marijuana.

Persephone

Ann

13-06-2007, 12:37 PM

Persephone expounded:

>This non-examination of industrial hemp as a source for automotive
>fuel is 1000% based on the enthusiastic propaganda of Big Oil,
>pandering to Bush's religious-nut "base", as well as to the general
>ignorance of Joe/Jane Beercan, who don't differentiate between
>marijuana and its industrial big sister, which has been used since
>pre-Biblical times for everything from cloth to oil. It grows on any
>kind of ground; requires almost no attention; is self-renewing.;
>doesn't drive up the price of a basic food like corn by diverting
>part of the crop to the Quixotic search for alternative fuel.

Doesn't sound like there's much money it it - therein lies the rub.

We can't have that, now, ya hear? ;->
--
Ann, gardening in Zone 6a
South of Boston, Massachusetts
e-mail address is not checked
******************************

Omelet

13-06-2007, 02:37 PM

In article >, Persephone
wrote:

> Industrial hemp might be the answer.
>
> My credentials: Your correspondent hasn't smoked a joint since the
> 60's-that-were-really-the-70's. I have no illusions that growing
> hemp would turn everybody on; in fact what you'd have to go through to
> get high on industrial hemp doesn't bear examining <g>.

Not many people know that Industrial Hemp is NOT the same thing as
recreational pot. Nowhere near. Anyone that has bothered to do the
research would know that.

It has a million and one uses. 1 acre of IH supposedly creates the same
amount of usable cellulose as 10 acres of forest. It is good for fabric,
paper, fuel and oil, as well as a food source from the seeds.

You can thank Dupont for being one of the major players in getting it
outlawed.
--
Peace, Om

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"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

Omelet

13-06-2007, 02:38 PM

In article >,
Ann > wrote:

> Persephone expounded:
>
> >This non-examination of industrial hemp as a source for automotive
> >fuel is 1000% based on the enthusiastic propaganda of Big Oil,
> >pandering to Bush's religious-nut "base", as well as to the general
> >ignorance of Joe/Jane Beercan, who don't differentiate between
> >marijuana and its industrial big sister, which has been used since
> >pre-Biblical times for everything from cloth to oil. It grows on any
> >kind of ground; requires almost no attention; is self-renewing.;
> >doesn't drive up the price of a basic food like corn by diverting
> >part of the crop to the Quixotic search for alternative fuel.
>
> Doesn't sound like there's much money it it - therein lies the rub.
>
> We can't have that, now, ya hear? ;->

<snicker> Another realist I see. ;-)
Well put.
--
Peace, Om

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"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

William Wagner

13-06-2007, 03:41 PM

In article >,
Omelet > wrote:

> In article >, Persephone
> wrote:
>
> > Industrial hemp might be the answer.
> >
> > My credentials: Your correspondent hasn't smoked a joint since the
> > 60's-that-were-really-the-70's. I have no illusions that growing
> > hemp would turn everybody on; in fact what you'd have to go through to
> > get high on industrial hemp doesn't bear examining <g>.
>
> Not many people know that Industrial Hemp is NOT the same thing as
> recreational pot. Nowhere near. Anyone that has bothered to do the
> research would know that.
>
> It has a million and one uses. 1 acre of IH supposedly creates the same
> amount of usable cellulose as 10 acres of forest. It is good for fabric,
> paper, fuel and oil, as well as a food source from the seeds.
>
> You can thank Dupont for being one of the major players in getting it
> outlawed.

I remember seeing a TV program that discussed living treasures of
Japan. One woman was revered for her Hemp cloth. Seems not only
durable and comfortable but was beautiful without dyes.

Bill

--

S Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade
http://www.ocutech.com/ High tech Vison aid
This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with
Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational
and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit.

William Wagner

13-06-2007, 03:51 PM

In article

..net>,
William Wagner > wrote:

> In article >,
> Omelet > wrote:
>
> > In article >, Persephone
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Industrial hemp might be the answer.
> > >
> > > My credentials: Your correspondent hasn't smoked a joint since the
> > > 60's-that-were-really-the-70's. I have no illusions that growing
> > > hemp would turn everybody on; in fact what you'd have to go through to
> > > get high on industrial hemp doesn't bear examining <g>.
> >
> > Not many people know that Industrial Hemp is NOT the same thing as
> > recreational pot. Nowhere near. Anyone that has bothered to do the
> > research would know that.
> >
> > It has a million and one uses. 1 acre of IH supposedly creates the same
> > amount of usable cellulose as 10 acres of forest. It is good for fabric,
> > paper, fuel and oil, as well as a food source from the seeds.
> >
> > You can thank Dupont for being one of the major players in getting it
> > outlawed.
>
> I remember seeing a TV program that discussed living treasures of
> Japan. One woman was revered for her Hemp cloth. Seems not only
> durable and comfortable but was beautiful without dyes.
>
> Bill

Forgot to mention another neglected valuable plant. Bamboo.

A neat book!

http://preview.tinyurl.com/ynljd5

Bill

--

S Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade
http://www.ocutech.com/ High tech Vison aid
This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with
Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational
and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit.

Billy Rose

13-06-2007, 04:07 PM

In article >,
Omelet > wrote:

> Not many people know that Industrial Hemp is NOT the same thing as
> recreational pot. Nowhere near. Anyone that has bothered to do the
> research would know that.

I hear that the sin of eating meat on Fridays is comparable to the sin
of adultery. Having tried both, I can't see the comparison;-)

- Billy
Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)

Omelet

13-06-2007, 05:15 PM

In article

..net>,
William Wagner > wrote:

> In article >,
> Omelet > wrote:
>
> > In article >, Persephone
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Industrial hemp might be the answer.
> > >
> > > My credentials: Your correspondent hasn't smoked a joint since the
> > > 60's-that-were-really-the-70's. I have no illusions that growing
> > > hemp would turn everybody on; in fact what you'd have to go through to
> > > get high on industrial hemp doesn't bear examining <g>.
> >
> > Not many people know that Industrial Hemp is NOT the same thing as
> > recreational pot. Nowhere near. Anyone that has bothered to do the
> > research would know that.
> >
> > It has a million and one uses. 1 acre of IH supposedly creates the same
> > amount of usable cellulose as 10 acres of forest. It is good for fabric,
> > paper, fuel and oil, as well as a food source from the seeds.
> >
> > You can thank Dupont for being one of the major players in getting it
> > outlawed.
>
> I remember seeing a TV program that discussed living treasures of
> Japan. One woman was revered for her Hemp cloth. Seems not only
> durable and comfortable but was beautiful without dyes.
>
> Bill

Indeed...

From what I have read, Dupont wanted to sell Nylon rope.
--
Peace, Om

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"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

Omelet

13-06-2007, 05:21 PM

In article

..net>,
William Wagner > wrote:

> Forgot to mention another neglected valuable plant. Bamboo.
>
> A neat book!
>
> http://preview.tinyurl.com/ynljd5
>
> Bill

Nice. ;-)

Have you read any of Stamets books on Edible mushroom cultivation?
Oyster mushrooms seem to be one of the easiest and most versatile:

<http://www2.mailordercentral.com/fungi/Prodinfo.ASP?NUMBER=MGGM&VARIATIO
N=&AITEM=1&MITEM=1>
--
Peace, Om

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"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

Omelet

13-06-2007, 05:21 PM

In article
>,
Billy Rose > wrote:

> In article >,
> Omelet > wrote:
>
> > Not many people know that Industrial Hemp is NOT the same thing as
> > recreational pot. Nowhere near. Anyone that has bothered to do the
> > research would know that.
>
> I hear that the sin of eating meat on Fridays is comparable to the sin
> of adultery. Having tried both, I can't see the comparison;-)
>
> - Billy
> Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)

<snicker>
--
Peace, Om

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"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

Omelet

13-06-2007, 07:40 PM

In article >, Charlie wrote:

> >Read up on this. There are many titles out there on the subject (full
> >disclosure: one of which I edited) which paint a dismaying picture of
> >how Big Oil/Auto and Puritanical racists many decades ago managed to
> >push through legislation confabulating industrial hemp with marijuana.
> >
> >Persephone
>
> Seems as if the Chinese understand this.
>
> Charlie

Nobody ever said that the American ruling class was very bright...
and they are also greedy.

As much as I love Capitalism, it can have it's drawbacks.

<sigh>
--
Peace, Om

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"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

William Wagner

13-06-2007, 08:33 PM

In article >,
Omelet > wrote:

> In article
>
> .net>,
> William Wagner > wrote:
>
> > Forgot to mention another neglected valuable plant. Bamboo.
> >
> > A neat book!
> >
> > http://preview.tinyurl.com/ynljd5
> >
> > Bill
>
> Nice. ;-)
>
> Have you read any of Stamets books on Edible mushroom cultivation?
> Oyster mushrooms seem to be one of the easiest and most versatile:
>
> <http://www2.mailordercentral.com/fungi/Prodinfo.ASP?NUMBER=MGGM&VARIATIO
> N=&AITEM=1&MITEM=1>

No I haven't but Thanks to you I'll check it out.

Currently our local brown caps are beginning to appear after a warm
rain. I'm located in a wild mushroom oak forest with high ground water.
Would be perfect for wandering about in but our local deer ticks are
the worse I've ever seen. Most years a bit or two a season. I've had 8
in the last week with another 8 weeks to go. Nasty little guys. My dad
two houses away started antibiotics for Lyme's a week ago.

Bill

--

S Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade
http://www.ocutech.com/ High tech Vison aid
This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with
Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational
and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit.

Omelet

13-06-2007, 08:39 PM

In article

..net>,
William Wagner > wrote:

> In article >,
> Omelet > wrote:
>
> > In article
> >
> > .net>,
> > William Wagner > wrote:
> >
> > > Forgot to mention another neglected valuable plant. Bamboo.
> > >
> > > A neat book!
> > >
> > > http://preview.tinyurl.com/ynljd5
> > >
> > > Bill
> >
> > Nice. ;-)
> >
> > Have you read any of Stamets books on Edible mushroom cultivation?
> > Oyster mushrooms seem to be one of the easiest and most versatile:
> >
> > <http://www2.mailordercentral.com/fungi/Prodinfo.ASP?NUMBER=MGGM&VARIATIO
> > N=&AITEM=1&MITEM=1>
>
> No I haven't but Thanks to you I'll check it out.

The man is a genius. :-)
And that site also sells some nice indoor and outdoor cultivation kits
(and wood plugs) for affordable prices. Best way in the world to get rid
of stumps, and eat well while you are at it. <G>

And no, I have no association with that site. I'm just a real fan of his
writings and philosophies.

>
> Currently our local brown caps are beginning to appear after a warm
> rain. I'm located in a wild mushroom oak forest with high ground water.
> Would be perfect for wandering about in but our local deer ticks are
> the worse I've ever seen. Most years a bit or two a season. I've had 8
> in the last week with another 8 weeks to go. Nasty little guys. My dad
> two houses away started antibiotics for Lyme's a week ago.
>
>
> Bill

Bummer. :-(

Does insect repellant spray work to keep tics off of you?
--
Peace, Om

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"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

Omelet

14-06-2007, 03:26 PM

In article >, Charlie wrote:

> On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 12:40:23 -0500, Omelet >
> wrote:
>
>
> >Nobody ever said that the American ruling class was very bright...
> >and they are also greedy.
>
> It would appear they are bright enough to lead most dumb americans
> around by the nose and shove anything they want up their arses.

Only 51%. (Last prexy election)

>
> >As much as I love Capitalism, it can have it's drawbacks.
>
> Drawbacks? Gimme a break. We are no longer operating under a
> capitalist system. We've been drawn right into fascism.

That's not entirely accurate...

>
> There is no sugar-coating the bitter pill we are being forced to
> swallow.
>
> Churlie Charlie

Indeed.
--
Peace, Om

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"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

Billy Rose

14-06-2007, 04:40 PM

In article >,
Omelet > wrote:

> In article >, Charlie wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 12:40:23 -0500, Omelet >
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> > >Nobody ever said that the American ruling class was very bright...
> > >and they are also greedy.
> >
> > It would appear they are bright enough to lead most dumb americans
> > around by the nose and shove anything they want up their arses.
>
> Only 51%. (Last prexy election)
Probably less than that if you count the hachet job done by the Bushies
on the electorial system in Ohio.
>
> >
> > >As much as I love Capitalism, it can have it's drawbacks.
> >
> > Drawbacks? Gimme a break. We are no longer operating under a
> > capitalist system. We've been drawn right into fascism.
>
> That's not entirely accurate...
Well, yes and no. Since Woodrow Wilson started the Committee on Public
Information with participants like Walter Lippman and Edward Bernays,
the truth has become more malleable and willing to please. Edward
Bernays referred to their work as " the engineering of consent . . .
the very essence of the democratic process" (Hegemony or Survival by
Noam Chomsky, p. 8). So we live in a society that we think is free
because we've been told it is free. Yesterday on the Tom Leher News Hour
there was a discussion about what the present conflict between Hamas and
Fatah meant. Unless you follow the middle east, you may not have
realized that both of the experts presented were Fatah advisors. And so
it goes. This is a discussion?

No, we are ALREADY in the Matrix.
>
> >
> > There is no sugar-coating the bitter pill we are being forced to
> > swallow.

Don't sweat it Charlie, Gary Powers didn't swallow his either.

> >
> > Churlie Charlie
>
> Indeed.
Many good burgers, with no malice in their hearts, are trying to make
sense of the world with the information that they have. If you want
better information, avoid the corporate news. Listen to Democracy Now or
find a Pacifica Radio station. Read a book by Noam Chomsky or Greg
Palast.

This entire gutting of the Constitution has taken place right in front
of us and the White House asks, "Who are you going to believe, the
President or your own lying eyes?"

To summarize, " the engineering of consent . (is) . the very essence of
the democratic process" - Edward Bernays, Committee on Public Information

To quote Will Rogers, "All I know, is what I read in the newspapers."

Can I hear a few pots please?

- Billy
Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)

Omelet

14-06-2007, 07:06 PM

In article
>,
Billy Rose > wrote:

> In article >,
> Omelet > wrote:
>
> > In article >, Charlie wrote:
> >
> > > On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 12:40:23 -0500, Omelet >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > >Nobody ever said that the American ruling class was very bright...
> > > >and they are also greedy.
> > >
> > > It would appear they are bright enough to lead most dumb americans
> > > around by the nose and shove anything they want up their arses.
> >
> > Only 51%. (Last prexy election)
> Probably less than that if you count the hachet job done by the Bushies
> on the electorial system in Ohio.

But add the 3% of the fools that voted other parties.
That 3% could have swung the election if they'd voted Democrat.

> > > >As much as I love Capitalism, it can have it's drawbacks.
> > >
> > > Drawbacks? Gimme a break. We are no longer operating under a
> > > capitalist system. We've been drawn right into fascism.
> >
> > That's not entirely accurate...
>
> Well, yes and no. Since Woodrow Wilson started the Committee on Public
> Information with participants like Walter Lippman and Edward Bernays,
> the truth has become more malleable and willing to please. Edward
> Bernays referred to their work as " the engineering of consent . . .
> the very essence of the democratic process" (Hegemony or Survival by
> Noam Chomsky, p. 8). So we live in a society that we think is free
> because we've been told it is free. Yesterday on the Tom Leher News Hour
> there was a discussion about what the present conflict between Hamas and
> Fatah meant. Unless you follow the middle east, you may not have
> realized that both of the experts presented were Fatah advisors. And so
> it goes. This is a discussion?
>
> No, we are ALREADY in the Matrix.

<lol> I'm always up for a good debate!
IMHO we are swinging away from the original Republic to almost a true
Democracy and this is not a good thing.

As much as I love Capitalism (because it benefits anyone willing to work
hard enough), it can reach a point of no return where he who has the
gold makes ALL the rules...

and gods help the rest of us.

> >
> > >
> > > There is no sugar-coating the bitter pill we are being forced to
> > > swallow.
>
> Don't sweat it Charlie, Gary Powers didn't swallow his either.

Take the Red pill. ;-)

>
> > >
> > > Churlie Charlie
> >
> > Indeed.
>
> Many good burgers, with no malice in their hearts, are trying to make
> sense of the world with the information that they have. If you want
> better information, avoid the corporate news. Listen to Democracy Now or
> find a Pacifica Radio station. Read a book by Noam Chomsky or Greg
> Palast.

I never watch TV anymore except for the weather channel, and the
occasional Basketball game (GO SPURS!!! <G>)

I listen mostly to NPR (BBC) and WOAI San Antonio.

I also get a lot of news off the 'net and subscribe to the New York
Times via e-mail.

TV? USELESS!

>
> This entire gutting of the Constitution has taken place right in front
> of us and the White House asks, "Who are you going to believe, the
> President or your own lying eyes?"

I know. :-(

But the Sheeople follow. Or is that Lemmings?

>
> To summarize, " the engineering of consent . (is) . the very essence of
> the democratic process" - Edward Bernays, Committee on Public Information
>
> To quote Will Rogers, "All I know, is what I read in the newspapers."
>
> Can I hear a few pots please?
>
> - Billy
> Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)

Heh! At least "pots" is on topic!

Speaking of which, due to certain circumstances (mainly health issues
and finances), I've ended up putting off really planting any veggies
this year. I'd still like to do a few tomatoes.

Because of the Expense of water, I'd prefer to do container planting. I
have a couple of MONSTER plastic pots (okay, they are about 10 gallons I
guestimate) so I'd like to try them in those.

Can I put, say, 2 per pot and is it too late in the year for me to mess
with this? Should I wait until September?
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

William Wagner

14-06-2007, 07:41 PM

In article
>,
Billy Rose > wrote:

> In article >,
> Omelet > wrote:
>
> > In article >, Charlie wrote:
> >
> > > On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 12:40:23 -0500, Omelet >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > >Nobody ever said that the American ruling class was very bright...
> > > >and they are also greedy.
> > >
> > > It would appear they are bright enough to lead most dumb americans
> > > around by the nose and shove anything they want up their arses.
> >
> > Only 51%. (Last prexy election)
> Probably less than that if you count the hachet job done by the Bushies
> on the electorial system in Ohio.
> >
> > >
> > > >As much as I love Capitalism, it can have it's drawbacks.
> > >
> > > Drawbacks? Gimme a break. We are no longer operating under a
> > > capitalist system. We've been drawn right into fascism.
> >
> > That's not entirely accurate...
> Well, yes and no. Since Woodrow Wilson started the Committee on Public
> Information with participants like Walter Lippman and Edward Bernays,
> the truth has become more malleable and willing to please. Edward
> Bernays referred to their work as " the engineering of consent . . .
> the very essence of the democratic process" (Hegemony or Survival by
> Noam Chomsky, p. 8). So we live in a society that we think is free
> because we've been told it is free. Yesterday on the Tom Leher News Hour
> there was a discussion about what the present conflict between Hamas and
> Fatah meant. Unless you follow the middle east, you may not have
> realized that both of the experts presented were Fatah advisors. And so
> it goes. This is a discussion?
>
> No, we are ALREADY in the Matrix.
> >
> > >
> > > There is no sugar-coating the bitter pill we are being forced to
> > > swallow.
>
> Don't sweat it Charlie, Gary Powers didn't swallow his either.
>
> > >
> > > Churlie Charlie
> >
> > Indeed.
> Many good burgers, with no malice in their hearts, are trying to make
> sense of the world with the information that they have. If you want
> better information, avoid the corporate news. Listen to Democracy Now or
> find a Pacifica Radio station. Read a book by Noam Chomsky or Greg
> Palast.
>
> This entire gutting of the Constitution has taken place right in front
> of us and the White House asks, "Who are you going to believe, the
> President or your own lying eyes?"
>
> To summarize, " the engineering of consent . (is) . the very essence of
> the democratic process" - Edward Bernays, Committee on Public Information
>
> To quote Will Rogers, "All I know, is what I read in the newspapers."
>
> Can I hear a few pots please?
>
> - Billy
> Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)

Manufacturing Consent Herman and Chomsky

All Consuming IMAGES Stuart Ewen

Anvil of the Heart Bruce T. Holmes

The Poverty Of Affluence Paul L. Wachtel

Amusing Ourselves to Death Neil Postman

The Age of Missing Information Bill McKibben

The Third City Borna Bebek

Wallace Stevens The Poems of our Climate Harold Bloom

The Social Vision of William Blake Michael Ferber

The Gay Genius Lin Yutang

And on and on do you really want to read all this stuff? I just try
to keep our family whole. Usually by getting out of the way and being
here. Personal interaction at the market seem to bloom by the simple
act of yielding. Not having my way whatever that is avoids conflict.
Scaling it up however international voids me as I can only deal with
things I perceive. I've enough .

Blake and Wallace and Su Tungpo are personal inspiration. ( Keep
Spirt in) :)).

Balzac Sin is wanting to know every thing.

Now back to those morning glories.

Bill who plays push hands poorly.

--

S Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade
http://www.ocutech.com/ High tech Vison aid
This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with
Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational
and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit.

Omelet

14-06-2007, 08:43 PM

In article >, Charlie wrote:

> >> > Only 51%. (Last prexy election)
> >> Probably less than that if you count the hachet job done by the Bushies
> >> on the electorial system in Ohio.
> >
> >But add the 3% of the fools that voted other parties.
> >That 3% could have swung the election if they'd voted Democrat.
>
> I guess that makes me a fool.

Please don't take that personally...
I actually hate the dominant 2 party system, but I don't believe that it
can be beaten at this time.

Unfortunately.

Ron Paul knows this as even tho' he is really Libertarian, he runs as
Republican so he has a real chance at getting elected.

The American people don't appear to be ready for a real change yet as a
majority.

I'd love to be an idealist, but realists seem to do better.

>
> Yer foolin' yerself if you think that voting dem or rep is actually
> making a choice. Look what happened in the midterms....friggin' dems
> sold out just like I knew they would. We need a whole schload of
> Bernie Sanders types being elected. The two party system is a joke,
> another myth which folks swallow.

Yer preachin' to the choir babe!
But, see the above. You have to deal with the majority.

The Sheeople.

Idealism won't work yet. Not without a LOT more work, or perhaps
improvement of the gene pool.

> >> No, we are ALREADY in the Matrix.
> >
> ><lol> I'm always up for a good debate!
> >IMHO we are swinging away from the original Republic to almost a true
> >Democracy and this is not a good thing.
>
> Yeah....rigged elections are the sign of a true democracy. Can you say
> corporatocracy. But I agree that wherever we are, it is not a good
> place.

We are open to suggestions.

>
> >As much as I love Capitalism (because it benefits anyone willing to work
> >hard enough), it can reach a point of no return where he who has the
> >gold makes ALL the rules...
> >
> >and gods help the rest of us.
>
> True, but the incentive for willingness to work hard enough has been
> shipped overseas. Pensions gutted, health care/insurance situation
> abysmal
>
> It has reached the point of no return.

<sigh>

Potential Socialism provides NO incentives.
That's why they all eventually die in misery and poverty.

We all need that carrot on a stick to advance ourselves.

We need hope for advancement. That is human nature.

Otherwise, we tend to do just enough to get by.

My health care insurance this year just went to hell. If I don't mail
order my prescriptions, they won't pay for beyond the first month.
Fortunately the state is trying to introduce legislation to outlaw that.

They also refused to pay the $70.00 for my pap smear.

Guess they'd rather pay for cervical cancer treatment...

Idiots!

> >Can I put, say, 2 per pot and is it too late in the year for me to mess
> >with this? Should I wait until September?
>
> I don't understand the waiting til Sept. You in the southern
> hemisphere?

It has to do with light cycles.
Tomatoes will not "set" fruit if the light and dark timing are not right.
I live in South Central Texas so we don't generally get a frost until
late November.

>
> You bet you can put two per pot. It just takes more nutrient
> supplementation. I grow several pots of tomatoes. Peppers do great in
> pots as well. I plant two peppers per five gallon size post and have
> good yields.
>
> Charlie

Peppers don't get as big as 'maters. ;-)

How big are your pots and what variety of tomato do you use?

What nutrient supplements?
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

Billy Rose

14-06-2007, 09:59 PM

In article

..net>,
William Wagner > wrote:

> In article
> >,
> Billy Rose > wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > Omelet > wrote:
> >
> > > In article >, Charlie wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 12:40:23 -0500, Omelet >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >Nobody ever said that the American ruling class was very bright...
> > > > >and they are also greedy.
> > > >
> > > > It would appear they are bright enough to lead most dumb americans
> > > > around by the nose and shove anything they want up their arses.
> > >
> > > Only 51%. (Last prexy election)
> > Probably less than that if you count the hachet job done by the Bushies
> > on the electorial system in Ohio.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >As much as I love Capitalism, it can have it's drawbacks.
> > > >
> > > > Drawbacks? Gimme a break. We are no longer operating under a
> > > > capitalist system. We've been drawn right into fascism.
> > >
> > > That's not entirely accurate...
> > Well, yes and no. Since Woodrow Wilson started the Committee on Public
> > Information with participants like Walter Lippman and Edward Bernays,
> > the truth has become more malleable and willing to please. Edward
> > Bernays referred to their work as " the engineering of consent . . .
> > the very essence of the democratic process" (Hegemony or Survival by
> > Noam Chomsky, p. 8). So we live in a society that we think is free
> > because we've been told it is free. Yesterday on the Tom Leher News Hour
> > there was a discussion about what the present conflict between Hamas and
> > Fatah meant. Unless you follow the middle east, you may not have
> > realized that both of the experts presented were Fatah advisors. And so
> > it goes. This is a discussion?
> >
> > No, we are ALREADY in the Matrix.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > There is no sugar-coating the bitter pill we are being forced to
> > > > swallow.
> >
> > Don't sweat it Charlie, Gary Powers didn't swallow his either.
> >
> > > >
> > > > Churlie Charlie
> > >
> > > Indeed.
> > Many good burgers, with no malice in their hearts, are trying to make
> > sense of the world with the information that they have. If you want
> > better information, avoid the corporate news. Listen to Democracy Now or
> > find a Pacifica Radio station. Read a book by Noam Chomsky or Greg
> > Palast.
> >
> > This entire gutting of the Constitution has taken place right in front
> > of us and the White House asks, "Who are you going to believe, the
> > President or your own lying eyes?"
> >
> > To summarize, " the engineering of consent . (is) . the very essence of
> > the democratic process" - Edward Bernays, Committee on Public Information
> >
> > To quote Will Rogers, "All I know, is what I read in the newspapers."
> >
> > Can I hear a few pots please?
> >
> > - Billy
> > Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)
>
> Manufacturing Consent Herman and Chomsky
>
> All Consuming IMAGES Stuart Ewen
>
> Anvil of the Heart Bruce T. Holmes
>
> The Poverty Of Affluence Paul L. Wachtel
>
> Amusing Ourselves to Death Neil Postman
>
> The Age of Missing Information Bill McKibben
>
> The Third City Borna Bebek
>
> Wallace Stevens The Poems of our Climate Harold Bloom
>
> The Social Vision of William Blake Michael Ferber
>
> The Gay Genius Lin Yutang
>
>
> And on and on do you really want to read all this stuff? I just try
> to keep our family whole. Usually by getting out of the way and being
> here. Personal interaction at the market seem to bloom by the simple
> act of yielding. Not having my way whatever that is avoids conflict.
> Scaling it up however international voids me as I can only deal with
> things I perceive. I've enough .
>
> Blake and Wallace and Su Tungpo are personal inspiration. ( Keep
> Spirt in) :)).
>
> Balzac Sin is wanting to know every thing.
>
> Now back to those morning glories.
>
> Bill who plays push hands poorly.

Not much **** and vinegar today, huh, Bill? Sounds like you've gone
reflective on us. That's all well and good because it is all about being
individuals and not a commodity. But India would still be a colony of
England, if they hadn't resisted. People with dark colored skin would
still be slaves but for the struggle. Rafael Lemkin wanted to avoid it
too but it was dumped at his door. All sane men want to stay home with
their families and watch them grow. Insane men will find reasons for
them to die for glory.

And it all starts when someone pushes back.

Say, "hi" to the morning glories for me.

Maybe sticky hands would be a better match for you.

Kyungye, shue.

- Billy
Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)

Billy Rose

14-06-2007, 10:56 PM

In article >,
Omelet > wrote:
> >I never watch TV anymore except for the weather channel, and the
> > occasional Basketball game (GO SPURS!!! <G>)

> > I listen mostly to NPR (BBC) and WOAI San Antonio.
Here NPR is supported by Archer Daniel Midlands. They don't bite the
hand that feeds them. I've already ****ed and moaned about The Lehrer
News Hour. BBC can be good. Can be shoddy. No way to get KPFT 90.1 out
of Houston? Try on line at http://houston.kpft.org/site/PageServer for
free speech news and Democracy Now.

> > I also get a lot of news off the 'net and subscribe to the New York
> > Times via e-mail.
Of Judith Miller fame? In depth, inaccurate news.

> In article >, Charlie wrote:
>
> > >> > Only 51%. (Last prexy election)
> > >> Probably less than that if you count the hachet job done by the Bushies
> > >> on the electorial system in Ohio.
> > >
> > >But add the 3% of the fools that voted other parties.
> > >That 3% could have swung the election if they'd voted Democrat.
> >
> > I guess that makes me a fool.
>
> Please don't take that personally...
> I actually hate the dominant 2 party system, but I don't believe that it
> can be beaten at this time.
Amen, brothers and sisters.
>
> Unfortunately.
>
> Ron Paul knows this as even tho' he is really Libertarian, he runs as
> Republican so he has a real chance at getting elected.
>
> The American people don't appear to be ready for a real change yet as a
> majority.
>
> I'd love to be an idealist, but realists seem to do better.
>
> >
> > Yer foolin' yerself if you think that voting dem or rep is actually
> > making a choice. Look what happened in the midterms....friggin' dems
> > sold out just like I knew they would. We need a whole schload of
> > Bernie Sanders types being elected. The two party system is a joke,
> > another myth which folks swallow.
That was a pretty easy one to see, wasn't it Charlie?
>
> Yer preachin' to the choir babe!
> But, see the above. You have to deal with the majority.
>
> The Sheeople.
>
> Idealism won't work yet. Not without a LOT more work, or perhaps
> improvement of the gene pool.
>
> > >> No, we are ALREADY in the Matrix.
> > >
> > ><lol> I'm always up for a good debate!
> > >IMHO we are swinging away from the original Republic to almost a true
> > >Democracy and this is not a good thing.
I don't understand you unless you are talking about Pure Idealized
Republicanism where the representatives represent the people's needs and
desires or pure Democracy (à la Athens, circa 594 BC?) where everyone
votes on everything. The former has never existed and the latter only
exists, at present, in Switzerland.
> >
> > Yeah....rigged elections are the sign of a true democracy. Can you say
> > corporatocracy. But I agree that wherever we are, it is not a good
> > place.
>
> We are open to suggestions.
In the primaries I vote Kucinich. In the general election I vote the
"Greens" or whatever. At least it gets the opposition some operating
money to mount an anti-status quo response.
>
> >
> > >As much as I love Capitalism (because it benefits anyone willing to work
> > >hard enough), it can reach a point of no return where he who has the
> > >gold makes ALL the rules...
Really don't follow you here. Leads us back to feudalism. More of a
Jeffersonian myself, but without the slaves.
> > >
> > >and gods help the rest of us.
> >
> > True, but the incentive for willingness to work hard enough has been
> > shipped overseas. Pensions gutted, health care/insurance situation
> > abysmal
Because we let it happen and now the socialist countries of Europe feel
pressure to reduce their social safety-nets and race us to the bottom of
the barrel.
> >
> > It has reached the point of no return.
>
> <sigh>
>
> Potential Socialism provides NO incentives.
> That's why they all eventually die in misery and poverty.
>
> We all need that carrot on a stick to advance ourselves.
Max Weber saw how this was used by the capitalists in his book, "The
Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism". According to the early
protestants (Calvinists) we aren't here to be happy but if your work is
successful, then you are among the chosen. The factory owner is chose by
God and you, poor miserable child, are a creature of original sin. It
kinda turns things upside down.
>
> We need hope for advancement. That is human nature.
>
> Otherwise, we tend to do just enough to get by.
Yeah, so? Where you going? The one with the most toys when they die,
wins?
>
> My health care insurance this year just went to hell. If I don't mail
> order my prescriptions, they won't pay for beyond the first month.
> Fortunately the state is trying to introduce legislation to outlaw that.
>
> They also refused to pay the $70.00 for my pap smear.
>
> Guess they'd rather pay for cervical cancer treatment...
>
> Idiots!
Jeez. If it is pre-cancerous, sell the farm if you have too. Do what you
need to do but don't wait. Radiation and chemo will lay you up and you
won't be able to work. (I presume you have to work, otherwise forget I
said anything.) It might be cheaper to go to Cuba or India for
treatment. Check the list. There are 36 countries in the world that have
better health care than we do. Health travel is a booming industry.
>
> > >Can I put, say, 2 per pot and is it too late in the year for me to mess
> > >with this? Should I wait until September?
> >
> > I don't understand the waiting til Sept. You in the southern
> > hemisphere?
>
> It has to do with light cycles.
> Tomatoes will not "set" fruit if the light and dark timing are not right.
> I live in South Central Texas so we don't generally get a frost until
> late November.

Shortest I've seen on tomatoes is 65 days. If necessary, try augmenting
with shop lights.
>
> >
> > You bet you can put two per pot. It just takes more nutrient
> > supplementation. I grow several pots of tomatoes. Peppers do great in
> > pots as well. I plant two peppers per five gallon size post and have
> > good yields.
> >
> > Charlie
>
> Peppers don't get as big as 'maters. ;-)
>
> How big are your pots and what variety of tomato do you use?
>
> What nutrient supplements?

Hugs and Kisses
- Bill
Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)