Watering with soft water [Archive]

Billy[_4_]

02-03-2008, 02:42 AM

In article >,
Charles > wrote:

> On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 17:10:13 -0800, "SteveB" <meagain@rockvilleUSA>
> wrote:
>
> >I believe that the hose bibs on the outside of my house are hooked to the
> >soft water system. Is there any disadvantage to watering with soft water?
> >They're about to turn on the irrigation water system in our rural area, but
> >I need to get around and water some of the trees before that.
> >
> >Thanks.
> >
> >Steve
> >
> For occasional watering it is fine. For steady use I'd avoid it.
> Most softening systems replace the calcium and magnesium with sodium.
> Plants need calcium and magnesium, sodium is toxic. Over time it will
> build up, change the soil properties.

Like Charles said, you would basically be putting salt on your plants.
You don't want to drink it either, again it is salt (or the cation half
of the salt) and you risk raising your blood pressure. It is good for
washing things because the Ca++ in the water (hard water) is out and you
don't precipitate fatty acids or get calcium stearate (better known as
bathtub ring) which interfere with making the dirtiness soluble in water.
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi
Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml

Charles[_1_]

02-03-2008, 02:53 AM

On Sat, 01 Mar 2008 17:42:47 -0800, Billy >
wrote:

>In article >,
> Charles > wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 17:10:13 -0800, "SteveB" <meagain@rockvilleUSA>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >I believe that the hose bibs on the outside of my house are hooked to the
>> >soft water system. Is there any disadvantage to watering with soft water?
>> >They're about to turn on the irrigation water system in our rural area, but
>> >I need to get around and water some of the trees before that.
>> >
>> >Thanks.
>> >
>> >Steve
>> >
>> For occasional watering it is fine. For steady use I'd avoid it.
>> Most softening systems replace the calcium and magnesium with sodium.
>> Plants need calcium and magnesium, sodium is toxic. Over time it will
>> build up, change the soil properties.
>
>Like Charles said, you would basically be putting salt on your plants.
>You don't want to drink it either, again it is salt (or the cation half
>of the salt) and you risk raising your blood pressure. It is good for
>washing things because the Ca++ in the water (hard water) is out and you
>don't precipitate fatty acids or get calcium stearate (better known as
>bathtub ring) which interfere with making the dirtiness soluble in water.

I was wondering about if the softener was regenerated with potassium
chloride instead of sodium, that might be an overdose of potassium.
Good if one is raising bananas, I guess.

Sheldon[_1_]

02-03-2008, 03:12 AM

Charles wrote:
> "SteveB" wrote:
>
> >I believe that the hose bibs on the outside of my house are hooked to the
> >soft water system. ï¿½Is there any disadvantage to watering with soft water?
> >They're about to turn on the irrigation water system in our rural area, but
> >I need to get around and water some of the trees before that.
>
> For occasional watering it is fine. ï¿½For steady use I'd avoid it.
> Most softening systems replace the calcium and magnesium with sodium.
> Plants need calcium and magnesium, sodium is toxic. ï¿½Over time it will
> build up, change the soil properties.

That's not true. There is no more salt contained in softened water
than there is in the bottled water that people drink, usually less.
If softened water contained salt then it wouldn't be softened water,
now would it. The salt used by water softeners leaves the sytem as
grey water (along with the other minerals the system removes), that
never enters the domestic water. If the typical water softener uses a
pound of salt a day it's a lot, usually will use closer to 1/2 pound/
day. The trick is to find a way for disposing of the grey water
without it building up in one spot. My grey water (water from my
water softener, dehumidifier, and RO filter) is piped by gravity to a
creek, the same creek that collects run off from many thousands of
acres of lands as the creek meanders over many miles, which includes
the many tons of salt spread on the roads in winter by the highway
department.. my couple handfulls of salt a day is so negligible that
it doesn't count. And salt is not toxic it's a necessity of life, a
salt lick for live stock places more salt into the ground than any
water softener. Softened water contains very little salt, certainly
far less than if the water were not softened.

Sheldon[_1_]

02-03-2008, 03:21 AM

On Mar 1, 8:42ï¿½pm, Billy > wrote:
> In article >,
>
>
>
>
>
> ï¿½Charles > wrote:
> > On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 17:10:13 -0800, "SteveB" <meagain@rockvilleUSA>
> > wrote:
>
> > >I believe that the hose bibs on the outside of my house are hooked to the
> > >soft water system. ï¿½Is there any disadvantage to watering with soft water?
> > >They're about to turn on the irrigation water system in our rural area, but
> > >I need to get around and water some of the trees before that.
>
> > >Thanks.
>
> > >Steve
>
> > For occasional watering it is fine. ï¿½For steady use I'd avoid it..
> > Most softening systems replace the calcium and magnesium with sodium.
> > Plants need calcium and magnesium, sodium is toxic. ï¿½Over time it will
> > build up, change the soil properties.
>
> Like Charles said, you would basically be putting salt on your plants.
> You don't want to drink it either, again it is salt (or the cation half
> of the salt) and you risk raising your blood pressure. It is good for
> washing things because the Ca++ in the water (hard water) is out and you
> don't precipitate fatty acids or get calcium stearate (better known as
> bathtub ring) which interfere with making the dirtiness soluble in water.

What tripe. There is virtually no salt in softened water... whatever
salt was contained in the water before it was softened would be far,
far less.

Willshak

02-03-2008, 03:25 AM

on 3/1/2008 8:29 PM Sheldon said the following:
> "SteveB" wrote:
>
>> I believe that the hose bibs on the outside of my house are
>> hooked to the soft water system. ï¿½
>>
>
> I seriously doubt your outdoor hose bibs are connected to your
> softened water, easy enough to check.

My house was built without a water softener. When Culligan put in a
water softener a couple of years later, it was installed right after,
and next to the expansion tank in the main line from the well, so all
water was softened. When I replaced the water softener years later with
a Kenmore digital unit, I tapped off the main water line before the
softener and ran a direct line to the outdoor spigots and to a filtered
small drinking faucet on the kitchen sink.

> But since water softeners
> operate by on-demand it would use too much salt and place too much
> stress on the unit were it used for for heavy watering as is usually
> the case with outdoor water use. It's possible your hose bib is
> connected to softened water but would be exceedingly rare. My house
> has three hose bibs, none are connected to my softened water but the
> one by the garage is tempered water, it is part hot water so salt can
> be washed off vehicles during winter without it freezing.
>
>
>> Is there any disadvantage to watering with soft water?
>>
>
> There's no disadvantage but neither is there any advantage.
>
>
>

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

Charles[_1_]

02-03-2008, 03:41 AM

On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 18:12:11 -0800 (PST), Sheldon >
wrote:

>Charles wrote:
>> "SteveB" wrote:
>>
>> >I believe that the hose bibs on the outside of my house are hooked to the
>> >soft water system. ?Is there any disadvantage to watering with soft water?
>> >They're about to turn on the irrigation water system in our rural area, but
>> >I need to get around and water some of the trees before that.
>>
>> For occasional watering it is fine. ?For steady use I'd avoid it.
>> Most softening systems replace the calcium and magnesium with sodium.
>> Plants need calcium and magnesium, sodium is toxic. ?Over time it will
>> build up, change the soil properties.
>
>That's not true. There is no more salt contained in softened water
>than there is in the bottled water that people drink, usually less.
>If softened water contained salt then it wouldn't be softened water,
>now would it. The salt used by water softeners leaves the sytem as
>grey water (along with the other minerals the system removes), that
>never enters the domestic water. If the typical water softener uses a
>pound of salt a day it's a lot, usually will use closer to 1/2 pound/
>day. The trick is to find a way for disposing of the grey water
>without it building up in one spot. My grey water (water from my
>water softener, dehumidifier, and RO filter) is piped by gravity to a
>creek, the same creek that collects run off from many thousands of
>acres of lands as the creek meanders over many miles, which includes
>the many tons of salt spread on the roads in winter by the highway
>department.. my couple handfulls of salt a day is so negligible that
>it doesn't count. And salt is not toxic it's a necessity of life, a
>salt lick for live stock places more salt into the ground than any
>water softener. Softened water contains very little salt, certainly
>far less than if the water were not softened.
>
>

Wrong, unless you are using a dual ion exchange system. The common
household water softener just exchanges calcium and magnesium ions for
sodium. The carbonate, sulfate, or whatever else is in the water
stays where it is.

http://home.howstuffworks.com/home-appliance-bathroom-laundry/question99.htm

Billy[_4_]

02-03-2008, 03:42 AM

In article
>,
Sheldon > wrote:

> On Mar 1, 8:42?pm, Billy > wrote:
> > In article >,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ?Charles > wrote:
> > > On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 17:10:13 -0800, "SteveB" <meagain@rockvilleUSA>
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > >I believe that the hose bibs on the outside of my house are hooked to
> > > >the
> > > >soft water system. ?Is there any disadvantage to watering with soft
> > > >water?
> > > >They're about to turn on the irrigation water system in our rural area,
> > > >but
> > > >I need to get around and water some of the trees before that.
> >
> > > >Thanks.
> >
> > > >Steve
> >
> > > For occasional watering it is fine. ?For steady use I'd avoid it.
> > > Most softening systems replace the calcium and magnesium with sodium.
> > > Plants need calcium and magnesium, sodium is toxic. ?Over time it will
> > > build up, change the soil properties.
> >
> > Like Charles said, you would basically be putting salt on your plants.
> > You don't want to drink it either, again it is salt (or the cation half
> > of the salt) and you risk raising your blood pressure. It is good for
> > washing things because the Ca++ in the water (hard water) is out and you
> > don't precipitate fatty acids or get calcium stearate (better known as
> > bathtub ring) which interfere with making the dirtiness soluble in water.
>
>
> What tripe. There is virtually no salt in softened water... whatever
> salt was contained in the water before it was softened would be far,
> far less.

Shelly, I wouldn't recommend increasing one's sodium intake to most
people but for you I will make an exception. Drink soft water heartily
and often, please.
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi
Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml

Sheldon[_1_]

02-03-2008, 03:51 AM

On Mar 1, 9:25ï¿½pm, willshak > wrote:
>
> My house was built without a water softener. When Culligan put in a
> water softener a couple of years later, it was installed right after,
> and next to the expansion tank in the main line from the well, so all
> water was softened. When I replaced the water softener years later with
> a Kenmore digital unit, I tapped off the main water line before the
> softener and ran a direct line to the outdoor spigots and to a filtered
> small drinking faucet on the kitchen sink.

Obviously the Culligan guy didn't know what he was doing, more likely
lazy and didn't care about you. It's just plain silly to have outside
hose bibs connected to a softened water system.... if you had an
automatic irrigation system for your lawn it would be idiotic to have
it connected to softened water... not to say there aren't those with
more dollars than brain cells.

The only reason for having softened water at a hose bib is if one is
car collecting fanatic and can't tolerate the thought of spotting on
their Maserati ... although today's modern car wash compounds are
designed to obviate spotting the same as those dishwashing additives.

Charles[_1_]

02-03-2008, 03:52 AM

On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 18:21:23 -0800 (PST), Sheldon >
wrote:

>On Mar 1, 8:42?pm, Billy > wrote:
>> In article >,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ?Charles > wrote:
>> > On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 17:10:13 -0800, "SteveB" <meagain@rockvilleUSA>
>> > wrote:
>>
>> > >I believe that the hose bibs on the outside of my house are hooked to the
>> > >soft water system. ?Is there any disadvantage to watering with soft water?
>> > >They're about to turn on the irrigation water system in our rural area, but
>> > >I need to get around and water some of the trees before that.
>>
>> > >Thanks.
>>
>> > >Steve
>>
>> > For occasional watering it is fine. ?For steady use I'd avoid it.
>> > Most softening systems replace the calcium and magnesium with sodium.
>> > Plants need calcium and magnesium, sodium is toxic. ?Over time it will
>> > build up, change the soil properties.
>>
>> Like Charles said, you would basically be putting salt on your plants.
>> You don't want to drink it either, again it is salt (or the cation half
>> of the salt) and you risk raising your blood pressure. It is good for
>> washing things because the Ca++ in the water (hard water) is out and you
>> don't precipitate fatty acids or get calcium stearate (better known as
>> bathtub ring) which interfere with making the dirtiness soluble in water.
>
>
>What tripe. There is virtually no salt in softened water... whatever
>salt was contained in the water before it was softened would be far,
>far less.

From:
http://howthingswork.virginia.edu/search.php?searchs=water+softener&Go.x=13&Go.y=11&searchq=yes&searcha=yes

Finally, the best sources of water are those that simply don't have
many dissolved chemicals; or at least none that cause trouble for your
body. That means that your water shouldn't have much lead or arsenic
dissolved in it or any of a number of noxious organic chemicals. The
purest waters are distilled water, rain water (assuming minimal air
pollution), and water that has been chemically filtered (via ion
exchange, reverse osmosis, and/or activated carbon). Spring and well
waters tend to contain substantial amounts of dissolved calcium and
magnesium salts, which make the water less pure but probably don't
affect its healthfulness. One special case to look out for is water
that was very hard but that has been passed through a water softener.
The dissolved minerals that made the water hard will have been
replaced by sodium compounds during the softening process and
excessive sodium consumption may be a problem for some people.

Billy[_4_]

02-03-2008, 06:27 AM

In article
>,
Sheldon > wrote:

> On Mar 1, 9:25?pm, willshak > wrote:
> >
> > My house was built without a water softener. When Culligan put in a
> > water softener a couple of years later, it was installed right after,
> > and next to the expansion tank in the main line from the well, so all
> > water was softened. When I replaced the water softener years later with
> > a Kenmore digital unit, I tapped off the main water line before the
> > softener and ran a direct line to the outdoor spigots and to a filtered
> > small drinking faucet on the kitchen sink.
>
> Obviously the Culligan guy didn't know what he was doing, more likely
> lazy and didn't care about you. It's just plain silly to have outside
> hose bibs connected to a softened water system.... if you had an
> automatic irrigation system for your lawn it would be idiotic to have
> it connected to softened water... not to say there aren't those with
> more dollars than brain cells.
>
> The only reason for having softened water at a hose bib is if one is
> car collecting fanatic and can't tolerate the thought of spotting on
> their Maserati ... although today's modern car wash compounds are
> designed to obviate spotting the same as those dishwashing additives.

Shelly, did the flip just flop?
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi
Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml

dr-solo@wi.rr.com

02-03-2008, 02:34 PM

what he said.... absolutely. not to mention is very expensive to use soft water.

On Sun, 02 Mar 2008 00:14:04 GMT, Charles > wrote:
>For occasional watering it is fine. For steady use I'd avoid it.
>Most softening systems replace the calcium and magnesium with sodium.
>Plants need calcium and magnesium, sodium is toxic. Over time it will
>build up, change the soil properties.

Tom J

02-03-2008, 04:38 PM

Sheldon wrote:

..
>
> That's not true. There is no more salt contained in softened water
> than there is in the bottled water that people drink, usually less.
> If softened water contained salt then it wouldn't be softened water,
> now would it. The salt used by water softeners leaves the sytem as
> grey water (along with the other minerals the system removes), that
> never enters the domestic water.

Now you've done it!! Why did you have to post FACTS??
;-)
Tom J

John Bachman

02-03-2008, 09:36 PM

On Sun, 02 Mar 2008 07:34:46 -0600, wrote:

>what he said.... absolutely. not to mention is very expensive to use soft water.
Careful! You must qualify your comments. Water that has been passed
through a softening process can be expensive. I pump very soft water
out of the ground, costs but a little electricity.

John
>
>On Sun, 02 Mar 2008 00:14:04 GMT, Charles > wrote:
>>For occasional watering it is fine. For steady use I'd avoid it.
>>Most softening systems replace the calcium and magnesium with sodium.
>>Plants need calcium and magnesium, sodium is toxic. Over time it will
>>build up, change the soil properties.

Sheldon[_1_]

02-03-2008, 09:58 PM

On Mar 1, 9:52ï¿½pm, Charles > wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 18:21:23 -0800 (PST), Sheldon >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Mar 1, 8:42?pm, Billy > wrote:
> >> In article >,
>
> >> ?Charles > wrote:
> >> > On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 17:10:13 -0800, "SteveB" <meagain@rockvilleUSA>
> >> > wrote:
>
> >> > >I believe that the hose bibs on the outside of my house are hooked to the
> >> > >soft water system. ?Is there any disadvantage to watering with soft water?
> >> > >They're about to turn on the irrigation water system in our rural area, but
> >> > >I need to get around and water some of the trees before that.
>
> >> > >Thanks.
>
> >> > >Steve
>
> >> > For occasional watering it is fine. ?For steady use I'd avoid it.
> >> > Most softening systems replace the calcium and magnesium with sodium.
> >> > Plants need calcium and magnesium, sodium is toxic. ?Over time it will
> >> > build up, change the soil properties.
>
> >> Like Charles said, you would basically be putting salt on your plants.
> >> You don't want to drink it either, again it is salt (or the cation half
> >> of the salt) and you risk raising your blood pressure. It is good for
> >> washing things because the Ca++ in the water (hard water) is out and you
> >> don't precipitate fatty acids or get calcium stearate (better known as
> >> bathtub ring) which interfere with making the dirtiness soluble in water.

Sheldon[_1_]

02-03-2008, 10:21 PM

wrote:
>
> not to mention is very expensive to use soft water. ï¿½

What do you call "very expensive"?

A 40 pound bag of salt will typically produce about 6,000 gallons of
softened water... a 40 pound bag of salt costs about $4.50.

Actually that same $4.50 worth of salt can save the average household
about $45 worth of cleaning products each month... not to mention the
time and effort of cleaning, and will save more than 6,000 gallons of
water each month (mostly hot water) because softened water is just
that much more efficient at cleaning. Softened water is kind to your
plumbing too, will save untold thousands in plumbing bills over the
life of the water softener (about 20 years).

If one lives in a hard water locale *not* having a water softener is
VERY expensive.

Sheldon[_1_]

02-03-2008, 10:38 PM

On Mar 1, 9:41ï¿½pm, Charles > wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 18:12:11 -0800 (PST), Sheldon >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >Charles wrote:
> >> "SteveB" wrote:
>
> >> >I believe that the hose bibs on the outside of my house are hooked to the
> >> >soft water system. ?Is there any disadvantage to watering with soft water?
> >> >They're about to turn on the irrigation water system in our rural area, but
> >> >I need to get around and water some of the trees before that.
>
> >> For occasional watering it is fine. ?For steady use I'd avoid it.
> >> Most softening systems replace the calcium and magnesium with sodium.
> >> Plants need calcium and magnesium, sodium is toxic. ?Over time it will
> >> build up, change the soil properties.
>
> >That's not true. ï¿½There is no more salt contained in softened water
> >than there is in the bottled water that people drink, usually less.
> >If softened water contained salt then it wouldn't be softened water,
> >now would it. ï¿½The salt used by water softeners leaves the sytem as
> >grey water (along with the other minerals the system removes), that
> >never enters the domestic water. ï¿½If the typical water softener uses a
> >pound of salt a day it's a lot, usually will use closer to 1/2 pound/
> >day. ï¿½The trick is to find a way for disposing of the grey water
> >without it building up in one spot. ï¿½My grey water (water from my
> >water softener, dehumidifier, and RO filter) is piped by gravity to a
> >creek, the same creek that collects run off from many thousands of
> >acres of lands as the creek meanders over many miles, which includes
> >the many tons of salt spread on the roads in winter by the highway
> >department.. my couple handfulls of salt a day is so negligible that
> >it doesn't count. ï¿½And salt is not toxic it's a necessity of life, a
> >salt lick for live stock places more salt into the ground than any
> >water softener. ï¿½Softened water contains very little salt, certainly
> >far less than if the water were not softened.
>
> Wrong, unless you are using a dual ion exchange system. ï¿½The common
> household water softener just exchanges calcium and magnesium ions for
> sodium. ï¿½The carbonate, sulfate, or whatever else is in the water
> stays where it is.
>
> http://home.howstuffworks.com/home-appliance-bathroom-laundry/questio...

Your reading comprehension skills are near the 3rd grade elementary
school level, and I'm being quite generous.

[per your web site]
"Regeneration involves soaking the beads or zeolite in a stream of
sodium ions. Salt is sodium chloride, so the water softener mixes up a
very strong brine solution and flushes it through the zeolite or beads
(this is why you load up a water softener with salt). The strong brine
displaces all of the calcium and magnesium that has built up in the
zeolite or beads and replaces it again with sodium. _The remaining
brine plus all of the calcium and magnesium is flushed out through a
drain pipe. "_

DOH!

Billy[_4_]

03-03-2008, 01:06 AM

In article
>,
Sheldon > wrote:

> On Mar 1, 9:41?pm, Charles > wrote:
> > On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 18:12:11 -0800 (PST), Sheldon >
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >Charles wrote:
> > >> "SteveB" wrote:
> >
> > >> >I believe that the hose bibs on the outside of my house are hooked to
> > >> >the
> > >> >soft water system. ?Is there any disadvantage to watering with soft
> > >> >water?
> > >> >They're about to turn on the irrigation water system in our rural area,
> > >> >but
> > >> >I need to get around and water some of the trees before that.
> >
> > >> For occasional watering it is fine. ?For steady use I'd avoid it.
> > >> Most softening systems replace the calcium and magnesium with sodium.
> > >> Plants need calcium and magnesium, sodium is toxic. ?Over time it will
> > >> build up, change the soil properties.
> >
> > >That's not true. ?There is no more salt contained in softened water
> > >than there is in the bottled water that people drink, usually less.
> > >If softened water contained salt then it wouldn't be softened water,
> > >now would it. ?The salt used by water softeners leaves the sytem as
> > >grey water (along with the other minerals the system removes), that
> > >never enters the domestic water. ?If the typical water softener uses a
> > >pound of salt a day it's a lot, usually will use closer to 1/2 pound/
> > >day. ?The trick is to find a way for disposing of the grey water
> > >without it building up in one spot. ?My grey water (water from my
> > >water softener, dehumidifier, and RO filter) is piped by gravity to a
> > >creek, the same creek that collects run off from many thousands of
> > >acres of lands as the creek meanders over many miles, which includes
> > >the many tons of salt spread on the roads in winter by the highway
> > >department.. my couple handfulls of salt a day is so negligible that
> > >it doesn't count. ?And salt is not toxic it's a necessity of life, a
> > >salt lick for live stock places more salt into the ground than any
> > >water softener. ?Softened water contains very little salt, certainly
> > >far less than if the water were not softened.
> >
> > Wrong, unless you are using a dual ion exchange system. ?The common
> > household water softener just exchanges calcium and magnesium ions for
> > sodium. ?The carbonate, sulfate, or whatever else is in the water
> > stays where it is.
> >
> > http://home.howstuffworks.com/home-appliance-bathroom-laundry/questio...
>
> Your reading comprehension skills are near the 3rd grade elementary
> school level, and I'm being quite generous.
>
> [per your web site]
> "Regeneration involves soaking the beads or zeolite in a stream of
> sodium ions. Salt is sodium chloride, so the water softener mixes up a
> very strong brine solution and flushes it through the zeolite or beads
> (this is why you load up a water softener with salt). The strong brine
> displaces all of the calcium and magnesium that has built up in the
> zeolite or beads and replaces it again with sodium. _The remaining
> brine plus all of the calcium and magnesium is flushed out through a
> drain pipe. "_
>
> DOH!

Shelly, my dance instructor once told me that if I was going to fall, I
should do it gracefully. You might learn from that and not be so snotty
when you are so horribly wrong. The preceding paragraph reads,"The idea
behind a water softener is simple. The calcium and magnesium ions in the
water are replaced with sodium ions. Since sodium does not precipitate
out in pipes or react badly with soap, both of the problems of hard
water are eliminated. To do the ion replacement, the water in the house
runs through a bed of small plastic beads or through a chemical matrix
called zeolite. The beads or zeolite are covered with sodium ions. As
the water flows past the sodium ions, they swap places with the calcium
and magnesium ions. Eventually, the beads or zeolite contain nothing but
calcium and magnesium and no sodium, and at this point they stop
softening the water. It is then time to regenerate the beads or zeolite."

Hellooooo? Did you get that Shelly? The calcium and magnesium ions in
the water are **REPLACED** with sodium ions. Duh. Now go have a nice big
glass of soft water:-)
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi
Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml

Billy[_4_]

03-03-2008, 01:09 AM

In article
>,
Sheldon > wrote:

> wrote:
> >
> > not to mention is very expensive to use soft water. ?
>
> What do you call "very expensive"?
>
> A 40 pound bag of salt will typically produce about 6,000 gallons of
> softened water... a 40 pound bag of salt costs about $4.50.
>
> Actually that same $4.50 worth of salt can save the average household
> about $45 worth of cleaning products each month... not to mention the
> time and effort of cleaning, and will save more than 6,000 gallons of
> water each month (mostly hot water) because softened water is just
> that much more efficient at cleaning. Softened water is kind to your
> plumbing too, will save untold thousands in plumbing bills over the
> life of the water softener (about 20 years).
>
> If one lives in a hard water locale *not* having a water softener is
> VERY expensive.

This was about gardening Shelly, not plumbing. Toxification of the
landscape and all that. St. Molly used to say, when you find yourself in
a hole, stop digging.
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi
Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml

Billy[_4_]

03-03-2008, 01:13 AM

In article
>,
Sheldon > wrote:

> On Mar 1, 9:52?pm, Charles > wrote:
> > On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 18:21:23 -0800 (PST), Sheldon >
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >On Mar 1, 8:42?pm, Billy > wrote:
> > >> In article >,
> >
> > >> ?Charles > wrote:
> > >> > On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 17:10:13 -0800, "SteveB" <meagain@rockvilleUSA>
> > >> > wrote:
> >
> > >> > >I believe that the hose bibs on the outside of my house are hooked to
> > >> > >the
> > >> > >soft water system. ?Is there any disadvantage to watering with soft
> > >> > >water?
> > >> > >They're about to turn on the irrigation water system in our rural
> > >> > >area, but
> > >> > >I need to get around and water some of the trees before that.
> >
> > >> > >Thanks.
> >
> > >> > >Steve
> >
> > >> > For occasional watering it is fine. ?For steady use I'd avoid it.
> > >> > Most softening systems replace the calcium and magnesium with sodium.
> > >> > Plants need calcium and magnesium, sodium is toxic. ?Over time it will
> > >> > build up, change the soil properties.
> >
> > >> Like Charles said, you would basically be putting salt on your plants.
> > >> You don't want to drink it either, again it is salt (or the cation half
> > >> of the salt) and you risk raising your blood pressure. It is good for
> > >> washing things because the Ca++ in the water (hard water) is out and you
> > >> don't precipitate fatty acids or get calcium stearate (better known as
> > >> bathtub ring) which interfere with making the dirtiness soluble in
> > >> water.
> >
> > >What tripe. ?There is virtually no salt in softened water... whatever
> > >salt was contained in the water before it was softened would be far,
> > >far less.
> >
> > From:http://howthingswork.virginia.edu/search.php?searchs=water+softener&G..
> > .
>
> Sodium ions is not salt. The salt used in water softeners does NOT
> end up in the domestic water... the salt and oher minerals flush out
> as grey water.

You have to give Shellly credit. He may be stoopid but but he is
persistent. One more time from the top:

The idea behind a water softener is simple. The calcium and magnesium
ions in the water are ""REPLACED** with sodium ions. Since sodium does
not precipitate out in pipes or react badly with soap, both of the
problems of hard water are eliminated. To do the ion replacement, the
water in the house runs through a bed of small plastic beads or through
a chemical matrix called zeolite. The beads or zeolite are covered with
sodium ions. As the water flows past the sodium ions, they swap places
with the calcium and magnesium ions. Eventually, the beads or zeolite
contain nothing but calcium and magnesium and no sodium, and at this
point they stop softening the water. It is then time to regenerate the
beads or zeolite.

How's that hole coming Shelly? About time to hydrate again, huh?
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi
Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml

Billy[_4_]

03-03-2008, 01:16 AM

In article >,
John Bachman > wrote:

> On Sun, 02 Mar 2008 07:34:46 -0600, wrote:
>
> >what he said.... absolutely. not to mention is very expensive to use soft
> >water.
> Careful! You must qualify your comments. Water that has been passed
> through a softening process can be expensive. I pump very soft water
> out of the ground, costs but a little electricity.
>
> John
> >
> >On Sun, 02 Mar 2008 00:14:04 GMT, Charles > wrote:
> >>For occasional watering it is fine. For steady use I'd avoid it.
> >>Most softening systems replace the calcium and magnesium with sodium.
> >>Plants need calcium and magnesium, sodium is toxic. Over time it will
> >>build up, change the soil properties.

Don't pay any attention to John, Shelly. Have another big glass of your
soft water.

John, we are trying to cull the herd here. Your good sense is just going
to confuse him.
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi
Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml

Dioclese

03-03-2008, 02:27 PM

"SteveB" <meagain@rockvilleUSA> wrote in message
...
>I believe that the hose bibs on the outside of my house are hooked to the
>soft water system. Is there any disadvantage to watering with soft water?
>They're about to turn on the irrigation water system in our rural area, but
>I need to get around and water some of the trees before that.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Steve
>

Similar question here. How about hydrogen sulfide gas from well water. Its
filtered out before entering home plumbing. Hose bibs are connected to the
same home plumbing.

Normally, I use the 2 standalone faucets outside for irrigation. These have
no filtration whatsoever. Any special notes on soaker hoses for this
situation?

--
Dave

J. Clarke

03-03-2008, 02:43 PM

Sheldon wrote:
> On Mar 1, 9:41ï¿½pm, Charles > wrote:
>> On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 18:12:11 -0800 (PST), Sheldon
>> >
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Charles wrote:
>>>> "SteveB" wrote:
>>
>>>>> I believe that the hose bibs on the outside of my house are
>>>>> hooked to the soft water system. ?Is there any disadvantage to
>>>>> watering with soft water? They're about to turn on the
>>>>> irrigation
>>>>> water system in our rural area, but I need to get around and
>>>>> water some of the trees before that.
>>
>>>> For occasional watering it is fine. ?For steady use I'd avoid it.
>>>> Most softening systems replace the calcium and magnesium with
>>>> sodium. Plants need calcium and magnesium, sodium is toxic. ?Over
>>>> time it will build up, change the soil properties.
>>
>>> That's not true. ï¿½There is no more salt contained in softened
>>> water
>>> than there is in the bottled water that people drink, usually
>>> less.
>>> If softened water contained salt then it wouldn't be softened
>>> water,
>>> now would it. ï¿½The salt used by water softeners leaves the sytem
>>> as
>>> grey water (along with the other minerals the system removes),
>>> that
>>> never enters the domestic water. ï¿½If the typical water softener
>>> uses a pound of salt a day it's a lot, usually will use closer to
>>> 1/2 pound/ day. ï¿½The trick is to find a way for disposing of the
>>> grey water without it building up in one spot. ï¿½My grey water
>>> (water from my water softener, dehumidifier, and RO filter) is
>>> piped by gravity to a creek, the same creek that collects run off
>>> from many thousands of acres of lands as the creek meanders over
>>> many miles, which includes the many tons of salt spread on the
>>> roads in winter by the highway department.. my couple handfulls of
>>> salt a day is so negligible that it doesn't count. ï¿½And salt is
>>> not
>>> toxic it's a necessity of life, a salt lick for live stock places
>>> more salt into the ground than any water softener. ï¿½Softened water
>>> contains very little salt, certainly far less than if the water
>>> were not softened.
>>
>> Wrong, unless you are using a dual ion exchange system. ï¿½The common
>> household water softener just exchanges calcium and magnesium ions
>> for sodium. ï¿½The carbonate, sulfate, or whatever else is in the
>> water
>> stays where it is.
>>
>> http://home.howstuffworks.com/home-appliance-bathroom-laundry/questio...
>
> Your reading comprehension skills are near the 3rd grade elementary
> school level, and I'm being quite generous.
>
> [per your web site]
> "Regeneration involves soaking the beads or zeolite in a stream of
> sodium ions. Salt is sodium chloride, so the water softener mixes up
> a
> very strong brine solution and flushes it through the zeolite or
> beads
> (this is why you load up a water softener with salt). The strong
> brine
> displaces all of the calcium and magnesium that has built up in the
> zeolite or beads and replaces it again with sodium. _The remaining
> brine plus all of the calcium and magnesium is flushed out through a
> drain pipe. "_

You're confusing "sodium" with "salt". The process is that sodium
ions are picked up on the surface of the zeolite. Not "salt", just
one of the chemical components of it. Those are exchanged for
less-reactive calcium and magnesium ions in the water, so calcium
carbonate (or magnesium sulfate or whatever) gets turned into sodium
carbonate (or sodium sulfate or whatever) with a slight release of
energy. The calcium and magnesium ions then remain on the suface of
the zeolite until such time as it is regenerated by exposure to sodium
chloride at which time it picks up the sodium ions and the calcium
goes into the brine as calcium chloride.

So the softened water has no "salt" added, what is has is the existing
calcium and magnesium compounds turned into sodium compounds. The
quantity of the compounds doesn't change, what changes is their
chemical composition.

If you think that a water softener works by "adding salt" then try
adding salt to hard water and then have the hardness checked with and
without salt and see what you get.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Dan L.

03-03-2008, 03:40 PM

In article >,
"J. Clarke" > wrote:

> Sheldon wrote:
> > On Mar 1, 9:41?pm, Charles > wrote:
> >> On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 18:12:11 -0800 (PST), Sheldon
> >> >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> Charles wrote:
> >>>> "SteveB" wrote:
> >>
> >>>>> I believe that the hose bibs on the outside of my house are
> >>>>> hooked to the soft water system. ?Is there any disadvantage to
> >>>>> watering with soft water? They're about to turn on the
> >>>>> irrigation
> >>>>> water system in our rural area, but I need to get around and
> >>>>> water some of the trees before that.
> >>
> >>>> For occasional watering it is fine. ?For steady use I'd avoid it.
> >>>> Most softening systems replace the calcium and magnesium with
> >>>> sodium. Plants need calcium and magnesium, sodium is toxic. ?Over
> >>>> time it will build up, change the soil properties.
> >>
> >>> That's not true. ?There is no more salt contained in softened
> >>> water
> >>> than there is in the bottled water that people drink, usually
> >>> less.
> >>> If softened water contained salt then it wouldn't be softened
> >>> water,
> >>> now would it. ?The salt used by water softeners leaves the sytem
> >>> as
> >>> grey water (along with the other minerals the system removes),
> >>> that
> >>> never enters the domestic water. ?If the typical water softener
> >>> uses a pound of salt a day it's a lot, usually will use closer to
> >>> 1/2 pound/ day. ?The trick is to find a way for disposing of the
> >>> grey water without it building up in one spot. ?My grey water
> >>> (water from my water softener, dehumidifier, and RO filter) is
> >>> piped by gravity to a creek, the same creek that collects run off
> >>> from many thousands of acres of lands as the creek meanders over
> >>> many miles, which includes the many tons of salt spread on the
> >>> roads in winter by the highway department.. my couple handfulls of
> >>> salt a day is so negligible that it doesn't count. ?And salt is
> >>> not
> >>> toxic it's a necessity of life, a salt lick for live stock places
> >>> more salt into the ground than any water softener. ?Softened water
> >>> contains very little salt, certainly far less than if the water
> >>> were not softened.
> >>
> >> Wrong, unless you are using a dual ion exchange system. ?The common
> >> household water softener just exchanges calcium and magnesium ions
> >> for sodium. ?The carbonate, sulfate, or whatever else is in the
> >> water
> >> stays where it is.
> >>
> >> http://home.howstuffworks.com/home-appliance-bathroom-laundry/questio...
> >
> > Your reading comprehension skills are near the 3rd grade elementary
> > school level, and I'm being quite generous.
> >
> > [per your web site]
> > "Regeneration involves soaking the beads or zeolite in a stream of
> > sodium ions. Salt is sodium chloride, so the water softener mixes up
> > a
> > very strong brine solution and flushes it through the zeolite or
> > beads
> > (this is why you load up a water softener with salt). The strong
> > brine
> > displaces all of the calcium and magnesium that has built up in the
> > zeolite or beads and replaces it again with sodium. _The remaining
> > brine plus all of the calcium and magnesium is flushed out through a
> > drain pipe. "_
>
> You're confusing "sodium" with "salt". The process is that sodium
> ions are picked up on the surface of the zeolite. Not "salt", just
> one of the chemical components of it. Those are exchanged for
> less-reactive calcium and magnesium ions in the water, so calcium
> carbonate (or magnesium sulfate or whatever) gets turned into sodium
> carbonate (or sodium sulfate or whatever) with a slight release of
> energy. The calcium and magnesium ions then remain on the suface of
> the zeolite until such time as it is regenerated by exposure to sodium
> chloride at which time it picks up the sodium ions and the calcium
> goes into the brine as calcium chloride.
>
> So the softened water has no "salt" added, what is has is the existing
> calcium and magnesium compounds turned into sodium compounds. The
> quantity of the compounds doesn't change, what changes is their
> chemical composition.
>
> If you think that a water softener works by "adding salt" then try
> adding salt to hard water and then have the hardness checked with and
> without salt and see what you get.
>
> --

From my pitiful short garden experience.

* Water from rain is best
* then Water from rain barrels
* then Water from softener
* then Water from the hard line.
* Let plants die.

When I use my hard line my garden does not grow very well.
Still better than no water at all. I have also found that flowers does
seem to hold up better with the soft water than vegetables.

Most water softeners are first run through a sediment filter taking out
some nasty stuff first. Hard lines tend to come straight out of the well.

Depending on the size of your garden that softener can get expensive, if
it is a large one. If you are very rich and do not care, use the water
from the R.O. purification system from your drinking water.

Their are some companies that make inline water filters for the outside
water lines (also not cheap). I will let you do the searching.

Enjoy Life ... Dan

--
Email "dan lehr at comcast dot net". Text only or goes to trash automatically.

SteveB[_6_]

03-03-2008, 07:08 PM

"Dioclese" <NONE> wrote

Any special notes on soaker hoses for this
> situation?
>
> --
> Dave

Not sure about where you live, but here, the irrigation water is not
filtered to a high degree. Fill a glass gallon jug and see if it has
sediment or organic materials. This will clog up a soaker from the inside.

Steve

Dioclese

04-03-2008, 01:03 AM

"SteveB" <meagain@rockvilleUSA> wrote in message
...
>
> "Dioclese" <NONE> wrote
>
> Any special notes on soaker hoses for this
>> situation?
>>
>> --
>> Dave
>
> Not sure about where you live, but here, the irrigation water is not
> filtered to a high degree. Fill a glass gallon jug and see if it has
> sediment or organic materials. This will clog up a soaker from the
> inside.
>
> Steve
>

Central TX, rural hill country west of IH35.

Do have calcium etc from limestone in well water. Not really concerned
about that since the soil is similar due to runoff from rain. I have a
sediment filter, hydrogen gas filtration bottle (aerator), and a whole-house
carbon filter running inline to the house.

I saw one of those "what ifs" on an educational channel on TV. Evidently,
the earth ODed on hydrogen sulfide gas sometime in the past. Killed pretty
much everything land and sea. There's potential for that to happen again.
The gas is bad ju-ju in concentrations. Thus, the soaker hose question
about water with hydrogen sulfide gas. Picture in my mind about a soaker
hose is like a holding tank, intermittently burping pure hydrogen sulfide
gas in concentration.

--
Dave

Dioclese

04-03-2008, 01:22 AM

"Dan L." > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "J. Clarke" > wrote:
>
>> Sheldon wrote:
>> > On Mar 1, 9:41?pm, Charles > wrote:
>> >> On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 18:12:11 -0800 (PST), Sheldon
>> >> >
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> Charles wrote:
>> >>>> "SteveB" wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>>> I believe that the hose bibs on the outside of my house are
>> >>>>> hooked to the soft water system. ?Is there any disadvantage to
>> >>>>> watering with soft water? They're about to turn on the
>> >>>>> irrigation
>> >>>>> water system in our rural area, but I need to get around and
>> >>>>> water some of the trees before that.
>> >>
>> >>>> For occasional watering it is fine. ?For steady use I'd avoid it.
>> >>>> Most softening systems replace the calcium and magnesium with
>> >>>> sodium. Plants need calcium and magnesium, sodium is toxic. ?Over
>> >>>> time it will build up, change the soil properties.
>> >>
>> >>> That's not true. ?There is no more salt contained in softened
>> >>> water
>> >>> than there is in the bottled water that people drink, usually
>> >>> less.
>> >>> If softened water contained salt then it wouldn't be softened
>> >>> water,
>> >>> now would it. ?The salt used by water softeners leaves the sytem
>> >>> as
>> >>> grey water (along with the other minerals the system removes),
>> >>> that
>> >>> never enters the domestic water. ?If the typical water softener
>> >>> uses a pound of salt a day it's a lot, usually will use closer to
>> >>> 1/2 pound/ day. ?The trick is to find a way for disposing of the
>> >>> grey water without it building up in one spot. ?My grey water
>> >>> (water from my water softener, dehumidifier, and RO filter) is
>> >>> piped by gravity to a creek, the same creek that collects run off
>> >>> from many thousands of acres of lands as the creek meanders over
>> >>> many miles, which includes the many tons of salt spread on the
>> >>> roads in winter by the highway department.. my couple handfulls of
>> >>> salt a day is so negligible that it doesn't count. ?And salt is
>> >>> not
>> >>> toxic it's a necessity of life, a salt lick for live stock places
>> >>> more salt into the ground than any water softener. ?Softened water
>> >>> contains very little salt, certainly far less than if the water
>> >>> were not softened.
>> >>
>> >> Wrong, unless you are using a dual ion exchange system. ?The common
>> >> household water softener just exchanges calcium and magnesium ions
>> >> for sodium. ?The carbonate, sulfate, or whatever else is in the
>> >> water
>> >> stays where it is.
>> >>
>> >> http://home.howstuffworks.com/home-appliance-bathroom-laundry/questio...
>> >
>> > Your reading comprehension skills are near the 3rd grade elementary
>> > school level, and I'm being quite generous.
>> >
>> > [per your web site]
>> > "Regeneration involves soaking the beads or zeolite in a stream of
>> > sodium ions. Salt is sodium chloride, so the water softener mixes up
>> > a
>> > very strong brine solution and flushes it through the zeolite or
>> > beads
>> > (this is why you load up a water softener with salt). The strong
>> > brine
>> > displaces all of the calcium and magnesium that has built up in the
>> > zeolite or beads and replaces it again with sodium. _The remaining
>> > brine plus all of the calcium and magnesium is flushed out through a
>> > drain pipe. "_
>>
>> You're confusing "sodium" with "salt". The process is that sodium
>> ions are picked up on the surface of the zeolite. Not "salt", just
>> one of the chemical components of it. Those are exchanged for
>> less-reactive calcium and magnesium ions in the water, so calcium
>> carbonate (or magnesium sulfate or whatever) gets turned into sodium
>> carbonate (or sodium sulfate or whatever) with a slight release of
>> energy. The calcium and magnesium ions then remain on the suface of
>> the zeolite until such time as it is regenerated by exposure to sodium
>> chloride at which time it picks up the sodium ions and the calcium
>> goes into the brine as calcium chloride.
>>
>> So the softened water has no "salt" added, what is has is the existing
>> calcium and magnesium compounds turned into sodium compounds. The
>> quantity of the compounds doesn't change, what changes is their
>> chemical composition.
>>
>> If you think that a water softener works by "adding salt" then try
>> adding salt to hard water and then have the hardness checked with and
>> without salt and see what you get.
>>
>> --
>
> From my pitiful short garden experience.
>
> * Water from rain is best
> * then Water from rain barrels
> * then Water from softener
> * then Water from the hard line.
> * Let plants die.
>
> When I use my hard line my garden does not grow very well.
> Still better than no water at all. I have also found that flowers does
> seem to hold up better with the soft water than vegetables.
>
> Most water softeners are first run through a sediment filter taking out
> some nasty stuff first. Hard lines tend to come straight out of the well.
>
> Depending on the size of your garden that softener can get expensive, if
> it is a large one. If you are very rich and do not care, use the water
> from the R.O. purification system from your drinking water.
>
> Their are some companies that make inline water filters for the outside
> water lines (also not cheap). I will let you do the searching.
>
> Enjoy Life ... Dan
>
> --
> Email "dan lehr at comcast dot net". Text only or goes to trash
> automatically.

The filter needed depends on what you want to remove, the concentration of
that unwanted substance, AND, how much resulting water you intend to use
during a filter change interval. A solar heated still with intermittent
manual removal of solids is almost like rain water purity. United States
Patent 5181991. Rain barrels are a good idea if you get enough rain, flush
the gunk out of barrels and lines once in awhile (green slime, might be
black if cold).

-----
Dave

Billy[_4_]

04-03-2008, 01:41 AM

In article >, "Dioclese" <NONE>
wrote:

> "SteveB" <meagain@rockvilleUSA> wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Dioclese" <NONE> wrote
> >
> > Any special notes on soaker hoses for this
> >> situation?
> >>
> >> --
> >> Dave
> >
> > Not sure about where you live, but here, the irrigation water is not
> > filtered to a high degree. Fill a glass gallon jug and see if it has
> > sediment or organic materials. This will clog up a soaker from the
> > inside.
> >
> > Steve
> >
>
> Central TX, rural hill country west of IH35.
>
> Do have calcium etc from limestone in well water. Not really concerned
> about that since the soil is similar due to runoff from rain. I have a
> sediment filter, hydrogen gas filtration bottle (aerator), and a whole-house
> carbon filter running inline to the house.
>
> I saw one of those "what ifs" on an educational channel on TV. Evidently,
> the earth ODed on hydrogen sulfide gas sometime in the past. Killed pretty
> much everything land and sea. There's potential for that to happen again.
> The gas is bad ju-ju in concentrations.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&colID=1&articleID=00037A5D-
A938-150E-A93883414B7F0000

> Thus, the soaker hose question
> about water with hydrogen sulfide gas. Picture in my mind about a soaker
> hose is like a holding tank, intermittently burping pure hydrogen sulfide
> gas in concentration.
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi
Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml

dr-solo@wi.rr.com

04-03-2008, 04:56 AM

there is a lot of water needed to backwash the resin (if paying for the water) plus
the electricity. then there are the iron prefilters to replace. on my mothers house
the water is very hard and she used a service, rented the equipment, somebody carried
the bags down into the basement and filled the softener. $45 every 3 months. She
had extensive gardens and I can see that it could have doubled the price if she didnt
have well water for the gardens. this doesnt even include the price she paid for
city water which I am not even sure how much that costs cause the renters pay for
that now.
We dont have a softener. During 3 months we use about 12-15 ccf in winter, about 30
or more ccf in summer. 30.0 ccf = $164.89. Remember that sewage fees are based on
USAGE it doesnt matter if that water for the garden doesnt go down the drain. Well
water costs nothing but the electricity to pump it and the pump replaced every 25
years or so. Ingrid

On Sun, 02 Mar 2008 16:09:52 -0800, Billy > wrote:

>In article
>,
> Sheldon > wrote:
>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > not to mention is very expensive to use soft water. ?
>>
>> What do you call "very expensive"?
>>
>> A 40 pound bag of salt will typically produce about 6,000 gallons of
>> softened water... a 40 pound bag of salt costs about $4.50.
>>
>> Actually that same $4.50 worth of salt can save the average household
>> about $45 worth of cleaning products each month... not to mention the
>> time and effort of cleaning, and will save more than 6,000 gallons of
>> water each month (mostly hot water) because softened water is just
>> that much more efficient at cleaning. Softened water is kind to your
>> plumbing too, will save untold thousands in plumbing bills over the
>> life of the water softener (about 20 years).
>>
>> If one lives in a hard water locale *not* having a water softener is
>> VERY expensive.
>
>This was about gardening Shelly, not plumbing. Toxification of the
>landscape and all that. St. Molly used to say, when you find yourself in
>a hole, stop digging.

dr-solo@wi.rr.com

04-03-2008, 05:06 AM

Well I am not confusing anything. salt is NaCl which dissociates in water to Na+ and
Cl-. Cl-, BTW is what makes food taste "salty". The sodium ions are exchanged for
the calcium and magnesium ions in the water which are stabilized with the chloride
ions which are flushed down the drain. The sodium stays in the softened water. This
is a BIG issue with people who keep fish because some places have so much calcium
and/or magnesium in their water that the sodium ion concentration is thus high enough
to sicken and/or kill their fish. This is even a bigger problem when people use salt
prophylactically without testing for sodium ion concentration. It is the chloride
ions that are helpful to fish, not the sodium.

In addition physicians typically admonish their patients with high blood pressure to
not drink softened water, rather, to use RO water for drinking. Ingrid

On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 08:43:40 -0500, "J. Clarke" > wrote:
>You're confusing "sodium" with "salt". The process is that sodium
>ions are picked up on the surface of the zeolite. Not "salt", just
>one of the chemical components of it. Those are exchanged for
>less-reactive calcium and magnesium ions in the water, so calcium
>carbonate (or magnesium sulfate or whatever) gets turned into sodium
>carbonate (or sodium sulfate or whatever) with a slight release of
>energy. The calcium and magnesium ions then remain on the suface of
>the zeolite until such time as it is regenerated by exposure to sodium
>chloride at which time it picks up the sodium ions and the calcium
>goes into the brine as calcium chloride.
>
>So the softened water has no "salt" added, what is has is the existing
>calcium and magnesium compounds turned into sodium compounds. The
>quantity of the compounds doesn't change, what changes is their
>chemical composition.
>
>If you think that a water softener works by "adding salt" then try
>adding salt to hard water and then have the hardness checked with and
>without salt and see what you get.
>
>--

dr-solo@wi.rr.com

04-03-2008, 05:12 AM

hydrogen sulfide is created by bacteria. in water it goes into solution as H2SO4,
sulfuric acid. of course, in a well both H2S and CO2 are under pressure and when
they are pumped out they de-gas. In the burbs outside Milwaukee well water can get
contaminated by the bacteria if there isnt a valve on the outside hoses to prevent
back flushing of soil (with bacteria) into the tank and then into the well. or, if
the well casing starts to break down letting soil into the well. IIRC the bacteria
feed off the iron in the water releasing the H2S. Anyway. the wells often need to
be cleaned by dumping bleach down in there and then flushed to get rid of the
bacteria. there is probably more H2S in the bottom of a typical pond than in well
water. soaker hoses dont stand up long to well water unless there are very good
filters on them. personal experience. Ingrid

On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 07:27:57 -0600, "Dioclese" <NONE> wrote:
>Similar question here. How about hydrogen sulfide gas from well water. Its
>filtered out before entering home plumbing. Hose bibs are connected to the
>same home plumbing.
>
>Normally, I use the 2 standalone faucets outside for irrigation. These have
>no filtration whatsoever. Any special notes on soaker hoses for this
>situation?

Billy[_4_]

04-03-2008, 06:20 AM

In article >,
wrote:

> hydrogen sulfide is created by bacteria. in water it goes into solution as
> H2SO4,
> sulfuric acid. of course, in a well both H2S and CO2 are under pressure and
> when
> they are pumped out they de-gas. In the burbs outside Milwaukee well water
> can get
> contaminated by the bacteria if there isnt a valve on the outside hoses to
> prevent
> back flushing of soil (with bacteria) into the tank and then into the well.
> or, if
> the well casing starts to break down letting soil into the well. IIRC the
> bacteria
> feed off the iron in the water releasing the H2S. Anyway. the wells often
> need to
> be cleaned by dumping bleach down in there and then flushed to get rid of the
> bacteria. there is probably more H2S in the bottom of a typical pond than in
> well
> water. soaker hoses dont stand up long to well water unless there are very
> good
> filters on them. personal experience. Ingrid
>
> On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 07:27:57 -0600, "Dioclese" <NONE> wrote:
> >Similar question here. How about hydrogen sulfide gas from well water. Its
> >filtered out before entering home plumbing. Hose bibs are connected to the
> >same home plumbing.
> >
> >Normally, I use the 2 standalone faucets outside for irrigation. These have
> >no filtration whatsoever. Any special notes on soaker hoses for this
> >situation?

H2S + 2CO2 -> H2SO4 + C2 doesn't make any sense. Makes all other
statements questionable.
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi
Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml

Billy[_4_]

04-03-2008, 06:25 AM

In article >,
wrote:

> there is a lot of water needed to backwash the resin (if paying for the
> water) plus
> the electricity. then there are the iron prefilters to replace. on my
> mothers house
> the water is very hard and she used a service, rented the equipment, somebody
> carried
> the bags down into the basement and filled the softener. $45 every 3 months.
> She
> had extensive gardens and I can see that it could have doubled the price if
> she didnt
> have well water for the gardens. this doesnt even include the price she paid
> for
> city water which I am not even sure how much that costs cause the renters pay
> for
> that now.
> We dont have a softener. During 3 months we use about 12-15 ccf in winter,
> about 30
> or more ccf in summer. 30.0 ccf = $164.89. Remember that sewage fees are
> based on
> USAGE it doesnt matter if that water for the garden doesnt go down the drain.
> Well
> water costs nothing but the electricity to pump it and the pump replaced
> every 25
> years or so. Ingrid
>
> On Sun, 02 Mar 2008 16:09:52 -0800, Billy > wrote:
>
> >In article
> >,
> > Sheldon > wrote:
> >
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > not to mention is very expensive to use soft water. ?
> >>
> >> What do you call "very expensive"?
> >>
> >> A 40 pound bag of salt will typically produce about 6,000 gallons of
> >> softened water... a 40 pound bag of salt costs about $4.50.
> >>
> >> Actually that same $4.50 worth of salt can save the average household
> >> about $45 worth of cleaning products each month... not to mention the
> >> time and effort of cleaning, and will save more than 6,000 gallons of
> >> water each month (mostly hot water) because softened water is just
> >> that much more efficient at cleaning. Softened water is kind to your
> >> plumbing too, will save untold thousands in plumbing bills over the
> >> life of the water softener (about 20 years).
> >>
> >> If one lives in a hard water locale *not* having a water softener is
> >> VERY expensive.
> >
> >This was about gardening Shelly, not plumbing. Toxification of the
> >landscape and all that. St. Molly used to say, when you find yourself in
> >a hole, stop digging.

Soft water is good for the bathtub/shower, laundry, and the dishwasher.
For drinking, hard water is probably better (mineral water).
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi
Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml

Charles[_1_]

04-03-2008, 06:30 AM

On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 21:25:36 -0800, Billy >
wrote:

>In article >,
> wrote:
>
>> there is a lot of water needed to backwash the resin (if paying for the
>> water) plus
>> the electricity. then there are the iron prefilters to replace. on my
>> mothers house
>> the water is very hard and she used a service, rented the equipment, somebody
>> carried
>> the bags down into the basement and filled the softener. $45 every 3 months.
>> She
>> had extensive gardens and I can see that it could have doubled the price if
>> she didnt
>> have well water for the gardens. this doesnt even include the price she paid
>> for
>> city water which I am not even sure how much that costs cause the renters pay
>> for
>> that now.
>> We dont have a softener. During 3 months we use about 12-15 ccf in winter,
>> about 30
>> or more ccf in summer. 30.0 ccf = $164.89. Remember that sewage fees are
>> based on
>> USAGE it doesnt matter if that water for the garden doesnt go down the drain.
>> Well
>> water costs nothing but the electricity to pump it and the pump replaced
>> every 25
>> years or so. Ingrid
>>
>> On Sun, 02 Mar 2008 16:09:52 -0800, Billy > wrote:
>>
>> >In article
>> >,
>> > Sheldon > wrote:
>> >
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > not to mention is very expensive to use soft water. ?
>> >>
>> >> What do you call "very expensive"?
>> >>
>> >> A 40 pound bag of salt will typically produce about 6,000 gallons of
>> >> softened water... a 40 pound bag of salt costs about $4.50.
>> >>
>> >> Actually that same $4.50 worth of salt can save the average household
>> >> about $45 worth of cleaning products each month... not to mention the
>> >> time and effort of cleaning, and will save more than 6,000 gallons of
>> >> water each month (mostly hot water) because softened water is just
>> >> that much more efficient at cleaning. Softened water is kind to your
>> >> plumbing too, will save untold thousands in plumbing bills over the
>> >> life of the water softener (about 20 years).
>> >>
>> >> If one lives in a hard water locale *not* having a water softener is
>> >> VERY expensive.
>> >
>> >This was about gardening Shelly, not plumbing. Toxification of the
>> >landscape and all that. St. Molly used to say, when you find yourself in
>> >a hole, stop digging.
>
>Soft water is good for the bathtub/shower, laundry, and the dishwasher.
>For drinking, hard water is probably better (mineral water).

I think it depends on how hard it is and what else is in it. Out city
water tastes bad to me, it is very hard. It's no doubt better on a
health basis, except when it is so offensive that I don't drink it.

I use an RO filter for drinking water.

Charles[_1_]

04-03-2008, 06:35 AM

On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 21:20:15 -0800, Billy >
wrote:

>In article >,
> wrote:
>
>> hydrogen sulfide is created by bacteria. in water it goes into solution as
>> H2SO4,
>> sulfuric acid. of course, in a well both H2S and CO2 are under pressure and
>> when
>> they are pumped out they de-gas. In the burbs outside Milwaukee well water
>> can get
>> contaminated by the bacteria if there isnt a valve on the outside hoses to
>> prevent
>> back flushing of soil (with bacteria) into the tank and then into the well.
>> or, if
>> the well casing starts to break down letting soil into the well. IIRC the
>> bacteria
>> feed off the iron in the water releasing the H2S. Anyway. the wells often
>> need to
>> be cleaned by dumping bleach down in there and then flushed to get rid of the
>> bacteria. there is probably more H2S in the bottom of a typical pond than in
>> well
>> water. soaker hoses dont stand up long to well water unless there are very
>> good
>> filters on them. personal experience. Ingrid
>>
>> On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 07:27:57 -0600, "Dioclese" <NONE> wrote:
>> >Similar question here. How about hydrogen sulfide gas from well water. Its
>> >filtered out before entering home plumbing. Hose bibs are connected to the
>> >same home plumbing.
>> >
>> >Normally, I use the 2 standalone faucets outside for irrigation. These have
>> >no filtration whatsoever. Any special notes on soaker hoses for this
>> >situation?
>
>H2S + 2CO2 -> H2SO4 + C2 doesn't make any sense. Makes all other
>statements questionable.

The H2S in the well most likely comes from sulfate reducing bacteria
acting on sulfates that are already in the water.

Charles[_1_]

04-03-2008, 07:10 AM

On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 21:20:15 -0800, Billy >
wrote:

>In article >,
> wrote:
>
>> hydrogen sulfide is created by bacteria. in water it goes into solution as
>> H2SO4,
>> sulfuric acid. of course, in a well both H2S and CO2 are under pressure and
>> when
>> they are pumped out they de-gas. In the burbs outside Milwaukee well water
>> can get
>> contaminated by the bacteria if there isnt a valve on the outside hoses to
>> prevent
>> back flushing of soil (with bacteria) into the tank and then into the well.
>> or, if
>> the well casing starts to break down letting soil into the well. IIRC the
>> bacteria
>> feed off the iron in the water releasing the H2S. Anyway. the wells often
>> need to
>> be cleaned by dumping bleach down in there and then flushed to get rid of the
>> bacteria. there is probably more H2S in the bottom of a typical pond than in
>> well
>> water. soaker hoses dont stand up long to well water unless there are very
>> good
>> filters on them. personal experience. Ingrid
>>
>> On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 07:27:57 -0600, "Dioclese" <NONE> wrote:
>> >Similar question here. How about hydrogen sulfide gas from well water. Its
>> >filtered out before entering home plumbing. Hose bibs are connected to the
>> >same home plumbing.
>> >
>> >Normally, I use the 2 standalone faucets outside for irrigation. These have
>> >no filtration whatsoever. Any special notes on soaker hoses for this
>> >situation?
>
>H2S + 2CO2 -> H2SO4 + C2 doesn't make any sense. Makes all other
>statements questionable.

Sulfur dioxide and water combine to form sulfurous acid, H2SO3. This
slowly oxidizes to form sulfuric acid, H2SO4. Sulfur dioxide can also
oxidize to sulfur trioxide, which will then combine with water to form
sulfuric acid.

Sulfate reducing bacteria can remove the oxygen from the acid.

H2SO4 -> H2S + 2O2

The H2SO4 while in water will be ionized and may be associated with
other cations, calcium, magnesium, the like. So the above description
is only a rough description of what is going on.

Billy[_4_]

04-03-2008, 07:22 AM

In article >,
"Ryan P." > wrote:

> Billy wrote:
>
> >
> > H2S + 2CO2 -> H2SO4 + C2 doesn't make any sense. Makes all other
> > statements questionable.
> .
> .
> I don't know about the chemical equation there, but I do know that my
> home inspector told me the same thing about making sure there was a
> valve on the outside spigots to prevent backflow for that very reason...
> also good for keeping fertilizers and the like out of your pipes.

H2SO4 is sulfuric acid. H2S + 2CO2 -> H2SO4 + C2 doesn't make any sense.
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi
Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml

Charles[_1_]

04-03-2008, 07:35 AM

On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 22:22:49 -0800, Billy >
wrote:

>In article >,
> "Ryan P." > wrote:
>
>> Billy wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > H2S + 2CO2 -> H2SO4 + C2 doesn't make any sense. Makes all other
>> > statements questionable.
>> .
>> .
>> I don't know about the chemical equation there, but I do know that my
>> home inspector told me the same thing about making sure there was a
>> valve on the outside spigots to prevent backflow for that very reason...
>> also good for keeping fertilizers and the like out of your pipes.
>
>H2SO4 is sulfuric acid. H2S + 2CO2 -> H2SO4 + C2 doesn't make any sense.

I think the CO2 was incidental to the discussion. There may be some
biological reactions where bacteria are removing the carbon from the
CO2, releasing oxygen, which then combines with the H2S, but that's
getting a bit far afield here. More frequently the bacteria remove
the oxygen from the sulfate, use it to metabolize some organic
compounds and release the CO2 from that metabolism.

Billy[_4_]

04-03-2008, 07:39 AM

In article >,
Charles > wrote:

> On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 21:20:15 -0800, Billy >
> wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> > wrote:
> >
> >> hydrogen sulfide is created by bacteria. in water it goes into solution
> >> as
> >> H2SO4,
> >> sulfuric acid. of course, in a well both H2S and CO2 are under pressure
> >> and
> >> when
> >> they are pumped out they de-gas. In the burbs outside Milwaukee well
> >> water
> >> can get
> >> contaminated by the bacteria if there isnt a valve on the outside hoses to
> >> prevent
> >> back flushing of soil (with bacteria) into the tank and then into the
> >> well.
> >> or, if
> >> the well casing starts to break down letting soil into the well. IIRC the
> >> bacteria
> >> feed off the iron in the water releasing the H2S. Anyway. the wells
> >> often
> >> need to
> >> be cleaned by dumping bleach down in there and then flushed to get rid of
> >> the
> >> bacteria. there is probably more H2S in the bottom of a typical pond than
> >> in
> >> well
> >> water. soaker hoses dont stand up long to well water unless there are
> >> very
> >> good
> >> filters on them. personal experience. Ingrid
> >>
> >> On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 07:27:57 -0600, "Dioclese" <NONE> wrote:
> >> >Similar question here. How about hydrogen sulfide gas from well water.
> >> >Its
> >> >filtered out before entering home plumbing. Hose bibs are connected to
> >> >the
> >> >same home plumbing.
> >> >
> >> >Normally, I use the 2 standalone faucets outside for irrigation. These
> >> >have
> >> >no filtration whatsoever. Any special notes on soaker hoses for this
> >> >situation?
> >
> >H2S + 2CO2 -> H2SO4 + C2 doesn't make any sense. Makes all other
> >statements questionable.
>
>
> **Sulfur dioxide**
Flange head, we were talking about hydrogen sulfide, not sulfur dioxide.
You're an idiot. If you don't know the difference between sulfide and
sulfite, then don't respond to the question. H2S vs. SO2 (rotten eggs
vs. brimstone). What an imbecile.
Idiot. Moron. Get my drift?
> and water combine to form sulfurous acid, H2SO3. This
> slowly oxidizes to form sulfuric acid, H2SO4. Sulfur dioxide can also
> oxidize to sulfur trioxide, which will then combine with water to form
> sulfuric acid.
>
> Sulfate reducing bacteria can remove the oxygen from the acid.
>
> H2SO4 -> H2S + 2O2
>
> The H2SO4 while in water will be ionized and may be associated with
> other cations, calcium, magnesium, the like. So the above description
> is only a rough description of what is going on.
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi
Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml

Charles[_1_]

04-03-2008, 07:45 AM

On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 22:39:37 -0800, Billy >
wrote:

>In article >,
> Charles > wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 21:20:15 -0800, Billy >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >In article >,
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> hydrogen sulfide is created by bacteria. in water it goes into solution
>> >> as
>> >> H2SO4,
>> >> sulfuric acid. of course, in a well both H2S and CO2 are under pressure
>> >> and
>> >> when
>> >> they are pumped out they de-gas. In the burbs outside Milwaukee well
>> >> water
>> >> can get
>> >> contaminated by the bacteria if there isnt a valve on the outside hoses to
>> >> prevent
>> >> back flushing of soil (with bacteria) into the tank and then into the
>> >> well.
>> >> or, if
>> >> the well casing starts to break down letting soil into the well. IIRC the
>> >> bacteria
>> >> feed off the iron in the water releasing the H2S. Anyway. the wells
>> >> often
>> >> need to
>> >> be cleaned by dumping bleach down in there and then flushed to get rid of
>> >> the
>> >> bacteria. there is probably more H2S in the bottom of a typical pond than
>> >> in
>> >> well
>> >> water. soaker hoses dont stand up long to well water unless there are
>> >> very
>> >> good
>> >> filters on them. personal experience. Ingrid
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 07:27:57 -0600, "Dioclese" <NONE> wrote:
>> >> >Similar question here. How about hydrogen sulfide gas from well water.
>> >> >Its
>> >> >filtered out before entering home plumbing. Hose bibs are connected to
>> >> >the
>> >> >same home plumbing.
>> >> >
>> >> >Normally, I use the 2 standalone faucets outside for irrigation. These
>> >> >have
>> >> >no filtration whatsoever. Any special notes on soaker hoses for this
>> >> >situation?
>> >
>> >H2S + 2CO2 -> H2SO4 + C2 doesn't make any sense. Makes all other
>> >statements questionable.
>>
>>
>> **Sulfur dioxide**
>Flange head, we were talking about hydrogen sulfide, not sulfur dioxide.
>You're an idiot. If you don't know the difference between sulfide and
>sulfite, then don't respond to the question. H2S vs. SO2 (rotten eggs
>vs. brimstone). What an imbecile.
>Idiot. Moron. Get my drift?

No, I don't.

I started talking about sulfur dioxide because it was appropriate to
what I had to say. Not too complicated, is it?

What I was getting to was the H2S and the CO2 combination, CO2 drifted
into the thread some time ago.

>> and water combine to form sulfurous acid, H2SO3. This
>> slowly oxidizes to form sulfuric acid, H2SO4. Sulfur dioxide can also
>> oxidize to sulfur trioxide, which will then combine with water to form
>> sulfuric acid.
>>
>> Sulfate reducing bacteria can remove the oxygen from the acid.
>>
>> H2SO4 -> H2S + 2O2
>>
>> The H2SO4 while in water will be ionized and may be associated with
>> other cations, calcium, magnesium, the like. So the above description
>> is only a rough description of what is going on.

Billy[_4_]

04-03-2008, 08:08 AM

In article >,
Charles > wrote:

> On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 22:39:37 -0800, Billy >
> wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> > Charles > wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 21:20:15 -0800, Billy >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >In article >,
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> hydrogen sulfide is created by bacteria. in water it goes into
> >> >> solution
> >> >> as
> >> >> H2SO4,
> >> >> sulfuric acid. of course, in a well both H2S and CO2 are under
> >> >> pressure
> >> >> and
> >> >> when
> >> >> they are pumped out they de-gas. In the burbs outside Milwaukee well
> >> >> water
> >> >> can get
> >> >> contaminated by the bacteria if there isnt a valve on the outside hoses
> >> >> to
> >> >> prevent
> >> >> back flushing of soil (with bacteria) into the tank and then into the
> >> >> well.
> >> >> or, if
> >> >> the well casing starts to break down letting soil into the well. IIRC
> >> >> the
> >> >> bacteria
> >> >> feed off the iron in the water releasing the H2S. Anyway. the wells
> >> >> often
> >> >> need to
> >> >> be cleaned by dumping bleach down in there and then flushed to get rid
> >> >> of
> >> >> the
> >> >> bacteria. there is probably more H2S in the bottom of a typical pond
> >> >> than
> >> >> in
> >> >> well
> >> >> water. soaker hoses dont stand up long to well water unless there are
> >> >> very
> >> >> good
> >> >> filters on them. personal experience. Ingrid
> >> >>
> >> >> On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 07:27:57 -0600, "Dioclese" <NONE> wrote:
> >> >> >Similar question here. How about hydrogen sulfide gas from well
> >> >> >water.
> >> >> >Its
> >> >> >filtered out before entering home plumbing. Hose bibs are connected
> >> >> >to
> >> >> >the
> >> >> >same home plumbing.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Normally, I use the 2 standalone faucets outside for irrigation.
> >> >> >These
> >> >> >have
> >> >> >no filtration whatsoever. Any special notes on soaker hoses for this
> >> >> >situation?
> >> >
> >> >H2S + 2CO2 -> H2SO4 + C2 doesn't make any sense. Makes all other
> >> >statements questionable.
> >>
> >>
> >> **Sulfur dioxide**
> >Flange head, we were talking about hydrogen sulfide, not sulfur dioxide.
> >You're an idiot. If you don't know the difference between sulfide and
> >sulfite, then don't respond to the question. H2S vs. SO2 (rotten eggs
> >vs. brimstone). What an imbecile.
> >Idiot. Moron. Get my drift?
>
> No, I don't.
>
> I started talking about sulfur dioxide because it was appropriate to
> what I had to say. Not too complicated, is it?

Appropriate to what you had to say? How do you get from sulfides to
sulfites? Why don't you just start singing Ave Maria, it has about as
much to do with the conversation as sulfites. It certainly isn't
complicated to realize that you are cretin. And here you are trying to
rationalize your bullshit? You seem to be a waste of time and space.

>
> What I was getting to was the H2S and the CO2 combination, CO2 drifted
> into the thread some time ago.
In your ear, when? They are both volatile and leave solution as gases.
>
>
> >> and water combine to form sulfurous acid, H2SO3. This
> >> slowly oxidizes to form sulfuric acid, H2SO4. Sulfur dioxide can also
> >> oxidize to sulfur trioxide, which will then combine with water to form
> >> sulfuric acid.
> >>
> >> Sulfate reducing bacteria can remove the oxygen from the acid.
> >>
> >> H2SO4 -> H2S + 2O2
> >>
> >> The H2SO4 while in water will be ionized and may be associated with
> >> other cations, calcium, magnesium, the like. So the above description
> >> is only a rough description of what is going on.

In some other universe. We were talking about sulfides, H2S.

God, you are slow. OK. If you are 12 years old or younger, I forgive
you. If you are older, you have a lot of nerve wasting my time.

On other news fronts, the smoked spareribs were wonderful and and a big
hit. We are best buds with the family pets again:-)
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi
Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml

Bob F

04-03-2008, 10:59 PM

> wrote in message news:47ccc853$0$1345
> Remember that sewage fees are based on
> USAGE it doesnt matter if that water for the garden doesnt go down the drain.
> Well
> water costs nothing but the electricity to pump it and the pump replaced every
> 25
> years or so.

Where I live, the sewage fees are based on your winter (low) usage, so you don't
get charged for summer watering.

Dioclese

05-03-2008, 06:13 AM

Appreciate your input. I've done alot of homework regarding the anaerobic
bacteria that produce such gas, their typical habitats, and so forth. There
are pockets of water that are referred to as wells that have suitable
habitat for these bacteria, just as a peat bottomed pond does. These reside
there whether a well is drilled or not.

A one-way check valve at the bib can serve the same purpose you speak of.
Even though it wasn't designed for that in mind.

Nevertheless, the hydrogen sulfide gas originates from the well since day 1
it was tapped.

There are many considerations for "shocking" a well. That includes my
neighbors that may sharing the same water who may pump bleach, and drink it.
I prefer to deal with it as it is for my purposes without treatment for
irrigation.

The aerator in my filtration system forces air into the water while in a
storage bottle. This changes into sulfuric acid and sinks to the bottom of
the bottle. Every 24 hours, its mixed with incoming water and flushed to a
french drain automatically. The live oaks in the vicinity, and St.
Augustine grass above the french drain don't seem to mind it. The way I
look at it the acidity of the watered down sulfuric acid and the alkalinity
of the limestone rock and caliche native to the local area are doing
something good in the mix.
--
Dave

My vote in this primary was for the lesser
of many evils...
> wrote in message
. com...
> hydrogen sulfide is created by bacteria. in water it goes into solution
> as H2SO4,
> sulfuric acid. of course, in a well both H2S and CO2 are under pressure
> and when
> they are pumped out they de-gas. In the burbs outside Milwaukee well
> water can get
> contaminated by the bacteria if there isnt a valve on the outside hoses to
> prevent
> back flushing of soil (with bacteria) into the tank and then into the
> well. or, if
> the well casing starts to break down letting soil into the well. IIRC the
> bacteria
> feed off the iron in the water releasing the H2S. Anyway. the wells
> often need to
> be cleaned by dumping bleach down in there and then flushed to get rid of
> the
> bacteria. there is probably more H2S in the bottom of a typical pond than
> in well
> water. soaker hoses dont stand up long to well water unless there are
> very good
> filters on them. personal experience. Ingrid
>
> On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 07:27:57 -0600, "Dioclese" <NONE> wrote:
>>Similar question here. How about hydrogen sulfide gas from well water.
>>Its
>>filtered out before entering home plumbing. Hose bibs are connected to
>>the
>>same home plumbing.
>>
>>Normally, I use the 2 standalone faucets outside for irrigation. These
>>have
>>no filtration whatsoever. Any special notes on soaker hoses for this
>>situation?

Billy[_4_]

05-03-2008, 05:26 PM

In article >, "Dioclese" <NONE>
wrote:

> Appreciate your input. I've done alot of homework regarding the anaerobic
> bacteria that produce such gas, their typical habitats, and so forth. There
> are pockets of water that are referred to as wells that have suitable
> habitat for these bacteria, just as a peat bottomed pond does. These reside
> there whether a well is drilled or not.
>
> A one-way check valve at the bib can serve the same purpose you speak of.
> Even though it wasn't designed for that in mind.
>
> Nevertheless, the hydrogen sulfide gas originates from the well since day 1
> it was tapped.
>
> There are many considerations for "shocking" a well. That includes my
> neighbors that may sharing the same water who may pump bleach, and drink it.
I presume you are referring to chlorine being added to the well water.
This is done by most water districts to avoid people becoming sick from
drinking water with enteric (caca) bacteria in it. Locally, wells
connected to household water are checked for bacteria and those that are
high are shut down.
> I prefer to deal with it as it is for my purposes without treatment for
> irrigation.
>
> The aerator in my filtration system forces air into the water while in a
> storage bottle. This changes into sulfuric acid and sinks to the bottom of
> the bottle.

??? Hydrogen sulfide can turn into an extremely weak acid.
H2S ---> HS- + H+
Ka = 1.3Å~10-7 mol/L; pKa = 6.89.

Sulfuric (or sulfurous) acid, if it was present, would stay in solution
(homogeneously).

> Every 24 hours, its mixed with incoming water and flushed to a
> french drain automatically. The live oaks in the vicinity, and St.
> Augustine grass above the french drain don't seem to mind it. The way I
> look at it the acidity of the watered down sulfuric acid and the alkalinity
> of the limestone rock and caliche native to the local area are doing
> something good in the mix.
> --
> Dave
>
> My vote in this primary was for the lesser
> of many evils...
> > wrote in message
> . com...
> > hydrogen sulfide is created by bacteria. in water it goes into solution
> > as H2SO4,
> > sulfuric acid. of course, in a well both H2S and CO2 are under pressure
> > and when
> > they are pumped out they de-gas. In the burbs outside Milwaukee well
> > water can get
> > contaminated by the bacteria if there isnt a valve on the outside hoses to
> > prevent
> > back flushing of soil (with bacteria) into the tank and then into the
> > well. or, if
> > the well casing starts to break down letting soil into the well. IIRC the
> > bacteria
> > feed off the iron in the water releasing the H2S.

2 Fe + 3 S + 3 H2O ---> Fe2O3 + 3 (H2S)?

H2S often results from the bacterial break down of organic matter in the
absence of oxygen, such as in swamps and sewers (anaerobic digestion).

> > Anyway. the wells
> > often need to
> > be cleaned by dumping bleach down in there and then flushed to get rid of
> > the
> > bacteria. there is probably more H2S in the bottom of a typical pond than
> > in well
> > water. soaker hoses dont stand up long to well water unless there are
> > very good
> > filters on them. personal experience. Ingrid
> >
> > On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 07:27:57 -0600, "Dioclese" <NONE> wrote:
> >>Similar question here. How about hydrogen sulfide gas from well water.
> >>Its
> >>filtered out before entering home plumbing. Hose bibs are connected to
> >>the
> >>same home plumbing.
> >>
> >>Normally, I use the 2 standalone faucets outside for irrigation. These
> >>have
> >>no filtration whatsoever. Any special notes on soaker hoses for this
> >>situation?
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi
Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml

Billy[_4_]

05-03-2008, 05:30 PM

In article >, Charlie wrote:

> On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 23:13:52 -0600, "Dioclese" <NONE> wrote:
>
> >Dave
> >
> >My vote in this primary was for the lesser
> > of many evils...
>
> "But evil is still evil
> In anybody's name"
> ~~ Don Henley "If Dirt Were Dollars"

Nice to have you back Professor:-)
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi
Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml

Billy[_4_]

06-03-2008, 01:33 AM

In article >, Charlie wrote:

> On Wed, 05 Mar 2008 08:30:40 -0800, Billy > wrote:
>
> >In article >, Charlie wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 23:13:52 -0600, "Dioclese" <NONE> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Dave
> >> >
> >> >My vote in this primary was for the lesser
> >> > of many evils...
> >>
> >> "But evil is still evil
> >> In anybody's name"
> >> ~~ Don Henley "If Dirt Were Dollars"
> >
> >Nice to have you back Professor:-)
>
> Here now, Mr. Billy! You shouldn't be a temptin' this here old
> pig-ignorant autodidactic
Huh? Who's this Otto Dididatik feller anyway and why is he so
ignorant?
> to return to his former estate. During my
> winter sabbatical, I purposed to return, if indeed I *did* return, a
> more gentle and tolerant Charlie.
Charlie, I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty
is no vice and that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.

Why you lookin' at me like that?

> All that banging on pots left me
> sorely afflicted with tinnitis.....or was that the atenolol....hmmm.

Afraid you'll have to speak up boy. Ears ain't so good. What'd ya say?

>
> *sigh*.....life is difficult, isn't it?

Oh, it's a little after four. Got plenty of time.
>
> Charlie

And the next round of lisinopril and prunella is on me, kid. I'm taking
your mom's advice on the potted flowers and I've ordered some of the
trailing kind. I want to thank everybody who made suggestions, even
Frank, the knuckle head (Next time he sees an American flag, he'd better
look close to see if a geezer is carrying it.), but fuchsias would get
too much sun in my garden area. I was piqued by Om's suggestion of
growing peanuts, the idea never occurred to me before. Which is
fortunate. According to Wikipedia, the best of the lot for flavor are
"runners" peanuts. Spanish peanuts seem to be susceptible to a host of
ailments and Virginia peanuts are just BIG. I found one supplier of
Spanish peanuts and three of Virginia peanuts. Zip for runners.

Where is that prunella tea? I can feel the systolic creepin' up on me.
Maybe the good denizens of "wrecked gardens", can help me on this one.
I'm lookin' for "runners" peanuts.

Damn, I never wanted to get into the pot bangin' business but as you
mature, sometimes your common sense gets out in front of your good
sense, and you find yourself sayin' things that are likely to cause you
great bodily harm. Defecation of character is too good for Bush, Cheney,
et al. He should pay a greater price for miscon-screwing of the
constitution.

Where the hell is my pot? I try not to leave home without it. Evita was
on the tube last night, sorta got me into the mood, don'cha know.

Anyway, it's good to have you back boy. Bill was struggling to keep me
literate an all, but I think it may be a two man job. I'm looking
forward to being awash again in metaphors, similes, and poetic leaps of
imagery.

What ever become of our girl Rachael? Last I heard the south Sandhill
region of N.C. was drier than a popcorn fart. Can I say that? Anyway, if
you talk to her say, hi. News from North Carolina has a hard time making
it out to the west coast.

Well, I'd better get on with makin' dinner. After a couple of night of
stuffing myself from the barbecue, I think I'd best have a nice green
salad tonight and maybe an over priced artichokes to see if that will
make the peristalsis happy.

See ya' in the funny papers.
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi
Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml

dr-solo@wi.rr.com

07-03-2008, 08:32 AM

yeah... the Milwaukee area has some hellatious calcium/magnesium in the water... of
course that is why NE there are all those limestone quarries!!!!

the amount of softening that must be done to our water results in not very tasty
water, I agree. I used to like the taste of hard water until the iron bacteria got
into the well.

If you had long hair you would fall in love with it. We had a softener all my life
but when I left home and lived elsewhere with hard water I couldnt believe how
"gummy" my hair felt all the time. When I came back home my hair went back to
feeling clean and soft. Now lake water comes out of the tap and it is pretty soft.

What bothers me most about the Milwaukee area well water is the radon levels. and
nobody is talking about the fact that heating the water does not blow off the radon
and long hot showers breathing that in cant be very good for anyone.

On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 23:50:34 -0600, "Ryan P." >
wrote:
> My girlfriend's condo complex is all softened water, and I hate
>showering there. Of course, Germantown has some terrible ground water
>with a high iron/sulfer content, so the softener might not be completely
>to blame...

dr-solo@wi.rr.com

07-03-2008, 08:55 AM

That chemical reaction is no where in my message.

H2S is a byproduct of anaerobic digestion of organic material, and goes into water as
hydrogen sulfide. "hydrogen sulfide is weakly acidic, dissociating in aqueous
solution into hydrogen cations H+ and the hydrosulfide anion HS-: H2S ? HS- + H+ Ka
= 1.3×10-7 mol/L; pKa = 6.89"

"In the management of water-supply wells, iron bacteria are bacteria that derive the
energy they need to live and multiply by oxidizing dissolved ferrous iron (or the
less frequently available manganese and aluminium). .....The proliferation of iron
bacteria, in some way, increases the chance of sulfur bacteria infestation.

Common effects of excess iron in water are a reddish-brown color, stained laundry and
poor tasting coffee. An equally common but less well understood problem is
infestation of water supplies with iron bacteria. Iron bacteria are a natural part of
the environment in most parts of the world. These microorganisms combine dissolved
iron or manganese with oxygen and use it to form rust-colored deposits. In the
process, the bacteria produce a brown slime that builds up on well screens, pipes,
and plumbing fixtures.

Tastes and Odors - Iron bacteria often produce unpleasant tastes and odors commonly
reported as: "swampy," "oily or petroleum," "cucumber," "sewage," "rotten
vegetation," or "musty." The taste or odor may be more noticeable after the water has
not been used for some time. Iron bacteria do not produce hydrogen sulfide, the
"rotten egg" smell, but do create an environment where sulfur bacteria can grow and
produce hydrogen sulfide."

"The purple sulfur bacteria are a group of Proteobacteria capable of photosynthesis,
collectively referred to as purple bacteria. They are anaerobic or microaerophilic,
and are often found in hot springs or stagnant water. Unlike plants , algae, and
cyanobacteria, they do not use water as their reducing agent, and so do not produce
oxygen. Instead they use hydrogen sulfide, which is oxidized to produce granules of
elemental sulfur. This in turn may be oxidized to form sulfuric acid." These
bacteria are often sold to people to reduce the sludge in ponds and sewage systems.

CO2 goes into water to make H2CO3, carbonic acid.

Under pressure both are in solution like in a well. When pumped out of the well and
pressure is released, the gases come out of solution.

The simple test for both is pump out a 5 gallon bucket of water, take a pH test.
aerate and after 24 hours test pH again. If the pH rises then the gases have come
out of solution. If it is H2S, that can be smelled in very small amounts.

See, just cant spontaneously combine chemical reactions. Ingrid

On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 21:20:15 -0800, Billy > wrote:
>H2S + 2CO2 -> H2SO4 + C2 doesn't make any sense. Makes all other
>statements questionable.

dr-solo@wi.rr.com

07-03-2008, 08:58 AM

Yes, it is a two step process.

On Tue, 04 Mar 2008 05:35:08 GMT, Charles > wrote:
>The H2S in the well most likely comes from sulfate reducing bacteria
>acting on sulfates that are already in the water.

dr-solo@wi.rr.com

07-03-2008, 09:00 AM

Billy, stop being abusive.

Dioclese

07-03-2008, 06:52 PM

The only fixture I've noticed red tint is in the toilet bowl if I let it go
without cleaning long enough. A ring a the surface level in the toilet
about a 1/2" wide. None on the sediment filter bowl, or, the carbon filter
in place for 3 months at a time.

Yet, the obvious level of hydrogen sulfide gas at the well is very high due
to its odor level. The level of gas not only varies with lack of water
usage, but also, with locally heavy rains.

--
Dave

My vote in this primary was for the lesser
of many evils...
> wrote in message
. com...
> That chemical reaction is no where in my message.
>
> H2S is a byproduct of anaerobic digestion of organic material, and goes
> into water as
> hydrogen sulfide. "hydrogen sulfide is weakly acidic, dissociating in
> aqueous
> solution into hydrogen cations H+ and the hydrosulfide anion HS-: H2S ?
> HS- + H+ Ka
> = 1.3×10-7 mol/L; pKa = 6.89"
>
> "In the management of water-supply wells, iron bacteria are bacteria that
> derive the
> energy they need to live and multiply by oxidizing dissolved ferrous iron
> (or the
> less frequently available manganese and aluminium). .....The proliferation
> of iron
> bacteria, in some way, increases the chance of sulfur bacteria
> infestation.
>
> Common effects of excess iron in water are a reddish-brown color, stained
> laundry and
> poor tasting coffee. An equally common but less well understood problem is
> infestation of water supplies with iron bacteria. Iron bacteria are a
> natural part of
> the environment in most parts of the world. These microorganisms combine
> dissolved
> iron or manganese with oxygen and use it to form rust-colored deposits. In
> the
> process, the bacteria produce a brown slime that builds up on well
> screens, pipes,
> and plumbing fixtures.
>
> Tastes and Odors - Iron bacteria often produce unpleasant tastes and odors
> commonly
> reported as: "swampy," "oily or petroleum," "cucumber," "sewage," "rotten
> vegetation," or "musty." The taste or odor may be more noticeable after
> the water has
> not been used for some time. Iron bacteria do not produce hydrogen
> sulfide, the
> "rotten egg" smell, but do create an environment where sulfur bacteria can
> grow and
> produce hydrogen sulfide."
>
> "The purple sulfur bacteria are a group of Proteobacteria capable of
> photosynthesis,
> collectively referred to as purple bacteria. They are anaerobic or
> microaerophilic,
> and are often found in hot springs or stagnant water. Unlike plants ,
> algae, and
> cyanobacteria, they do not use water as their reducing agent, and so do
> not produce
> oxygen. Instead they use hydrogen sulfide, which is oxidized to produce
> granules of
> elemental sulfur. This in turn may be oxidized to form sulfuric acid."
> These
> bacteria are often sold to people to reduce the sludge in ponds and sewage
> systems.
>
> CO2 goes into water to make H2CO3, carbonic acid.
>
> Under pressure both are in solution like in a well. When pumped out of
> the well and
> pressure is released, the gases come out of solution.
>
> The simple test for both is pump out a 5 gallon bucket of water, take a pH
> test.
> aerate and after 24 hours test pH again. If the pH rises then the gases
> have come
> out of solution. If it is H2S, that can be smelled in very small amounts.
>
> See, just cant spontaneously combine chemical reactions. Ingrid
>
> On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 21:20:15 -0800, Billy > wrote:
>>H2S + 2CO2 -> H2SO4 + C2 doesn't make any sense. Makes all other
>>statements questionable.