CO2 bubbles collecting in Nutrafin diffuser

[Andrey Tarasevich]

Hello

I notice that instead of going all the way up CO2 bubbles are collecting in my
new Hagen Nutrafin diffuser forming larger bubbles that just sit there all the
time. I tried forcing them out of there but eventually they reappear. Meanwhile,
I saw a working setup in my LFS and it didn't have any bubbles stuck in it. I
also read somewhere on Google that this is normal for freshly installed
diffusers and eventually this issue will go away. Did anyone experience this
problem with their Nutrafin diffusers? Will the diffuser eventually clear up?
And if it will, what's the physics of this process? I.e. what exactly is going
to change so that the diffuser will no longer trap and hold CO2 bubbles?

--
Best regards,
Andrey Tarasevich

[Tzeentch]

Are you talking about the "Plant-Gro CO2 Natural System"? I bought one of
those yesterday and it's doing the exact same thing.
It's not elegant, but it's probably a good thing. Bubbles, while remaining
more or less stationary, get more time to disolve in the water, I guess.

Did you buy only the diffuser (bubble counter), or the whole setup? I
bought the whole set-up, but now I'm thinking I probably should have bought
only the diffuser (Bubble counter) and DIY the rest.

I don't know about you, but I was a bit disapointed by some part (of lack
thereof) of the kit. No check-valve? The tube seems made of vinyl(?)
instead of a better material like silicone.

"Andrey Tarasevich" > wrote in message
...
> I notice that instead of going all the way up CO2 bubbles are collecting
in my
> new Hagen Nutrafin diffuser forming larger bubbles that just sit there all
the
> time. I tried forcing them out of there but eventually they reappear.
Meanwhile,
> I saw a working setup in my LFS and it didn't have any bubbles stuck in
it. I
> also read somewhere on Google that this is normal for freshly installed
> diffusers and eventually this issue will go away. Did anyone experience
this
> problem with their Nutrafin diffusers? Will the diffuser eventually clear
up?
> And if it will, what's the physics of this process? I.e. what exactly is
going
> to change so that the diffuser will no longer trap and hold CO2 bubbles?

[Paul Disdle]

I bought one on saturday the whole kit and was told by my LFS this would
happen and this means better diffusion.

Paul

[Philip Ash]

Hi guys.
I have two of these and yes they do this to start with.
I am not sure exactly why, but it does go away after a period of time.
You actually see the point at which the bubbles stop, work its way up the
diffuser.

Phil.


--
Please remove the nospam. from the reply address.
"Paul Disdle" > wrote in message
...
> I bought one on saturday the whole kit and was told by my LFS this would
> happen and this means better diffusion.
>
> Paul
>
>

[David Wee]

I had the same problem with mine initially. It lasts for about a day or
so. I think the issue is that the plastic is so fresh it has certain
properties when not immersed, and neeeds time to "become one" with the
eventual slime that will coat it. Basically its a matter of "greasing" the
pipeline, and just leaving it in the tank will facilitate this (just dont
mess with it, it'll start going up the ramps without stopping).


In article >,
Andrey Tarasevich > wrote:
>Hello
>
>I notice that instead of going all the way up CO2 bubbles are collecting in my
>new Hagen Nutrafin diffuser forming larger bubbles that just sit there all the
>time. I tried forcing them out of there but eventually they reappear. Meanwhile,
>I saw a working setup in my LFS and it didn't have any bubbles stuck in it. I
>also read somewhere on Google that this is normal for freshly installed
>diffusers and eventually this issue will go away. Did anyone experience this
>problem with their Nutrafin diffusers? Will the diffuser eventually clear up?
>And if it will, what's the physics of this process? I.e. what exactly is going
>to change so that the diffuser will no longer trap and hold CO2 bubbles?
>
>--
>Best regards,
>Andrey Tarasevich
>


--

[Andrey Tarasevich]

Tzeentch wrote:
> Are you talking about the "Plant-Gro CO2 Natural System"? I bought one of
> those yesterday and it's doing the exact same thing.
> It's not elegant, but it's probably a good thing. Bubbles, while remaining
> more or less stationary, get more time to disolve in the water, I guess.

That's what I think, too. However, sometimes one large bubble gets stuck at
the very bottom of the diffuser right next to the bubble-producing nozzle.
In this case almost every new bubble bounces off the large one, misses the
diffuser and shoots straight to the surface.

> Did you buy only the diffuser (bubble counter), or the whole setup? I
> bought the whole set-up, but now I'm thinking I probably should have bought
> only the diffuser (Bubble counter) and DIY the rest.

Initially I wanted to by only the diffuser from one of the online stores.
But later I decided to go the faster way and bought the whole thing at LFS.
I don't regret it though. My tank is small (5.5 gal) and the whole thing
fits it pretty well.

BTW, according to the installation instructions, the nozzle can be attached
to the diffuser at three different points, deepening on the size of the
tank. The smaller is the tank - the higher the nozzle is supposed to be
attached. With my 5.5 I was supposed to go with the topmost (shallowest)
attachment point, but I ignored this recommendation and went with the
deepest one to give bubbles more travel time. Does anybody know what is the
importance of this recommendation in the installation instructions?

> I don't know about you, but I was a bit disapointed by some part (of lack
> thereof) of the kit. No check-valve?

Yeah. I bought one separately right away.

> The tube seems made of vinyl(?)
> instead of a better material like silicone.

Hmm... I thought I read it somewhere either in the installation instructions
or on the box that the tube is specifically suited for CO2 applications (or
something to that effect). Just some marketing BS?

--
Best regards,
Andrey Tarasevich

[LeighMo]

>The smaller is the tank - the higher the nozzle is supposed to be
>attached. With my 5.5 I was supposed to go with the topmost (shallowest)
>attachment point, but I ignored this recommendation and went with the
>deepest one to give bubbles more travel time. Does anybody know what is the
>importance of this recommendation in the installation instructions?

The deeper you put the diffuser, the more time the CO2 has to dissolve in the
water. More isn't always better with CO2. You can poison the fish. It's not
likely with DIY CO2 in a large tank, but with a 5.5 gallon tank, you have to be
careful. Measure your pH and KH, check the charts, and make sure you aren't
poisoning your fish.


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

[Eric Schreiber]

Andrey Tarasevich > wrote:

>I notice that instead of going all the way up CO2 bubbles are collecting in my
>new Hagen Nutrafin diffuser forming larger bubbles that just sit there all the
>time. I tried forcing them out of there but eventually they reappear. Meanwhile,
>I saw a working setup in my LFS and it didn't have any bubbles stuck in it. I
>also read somewhere on Google that this is normal for freshly installed
>diffusers and eventually this issue will go away. Did anyone experience this
>problem with their Nutrafin diffusers? Will the diffuser eventually clear up?
>And if it will, what's the physics of this process? I.e. what exactly is going
>to change so that the diffuser will no longer trap and hold CO2 bubbles?

Happened to me as well when I first installed my diffuser. After a few
days the bubbles started to travel the entire path.

I'd expect it's caused by some manufacturing residue, perhaps a mold
release compound used when the diffuser was made. You might try giving
it a thorough cleaning with hot water and a tooth brush, but that's
probably overkill.

Of course, you will have to clean the diffuser from time to time
anyway, as it will tend to collect a lot of debris. About once a week
I use a toothbrush on mine, followed by blasts from a turkey baster to
get the far side of it cleaned up. This keeps me from having to pull
the whole thing out (which is a lot more trouble than I generally want
to go through).

--
www.ericschreiber.com

[Eric Schreiber]

Andrey Tarasevich > wrote:

>BTW, according to the installation instructions, the nozzle can be attached
>to the diffuser at three different points, deepening on the size of the
>tank. The smaller is the tank - the higher the nozzle is supposed to be
>attached. With my 5.5 I was supposed to go with the topmost (shallowest)
>attachment point, but I ignored this recommendation and went with the
>deepest one to give bubbles more travel time. Does anybody know what is the
>importance of this recommendation in the installation instructions?

Huh. Perhaps that's a design change, as I don't think mine has
multiple connection points - just the lowest one. If you had a really
consistent source of CO2 it might be worth playing with, but using
yeast based systems, you're going to get a lot of variability no
matter what, so I doubt that you'll get much mileage out of having
different connection points.

Best advice is probably to just hook it up and monitor water
conditions, and see if it needs adjusting.

>> The tube seems made of vinyl(?)
>> instead of a better material like silicone.

>Hmm... I thought I read it somewhere either in the installation instructions
>or on the box that the tube is specifically suited for CO2 applications (or
>something to that effect). Just some marketing BS?

The tubing that came with mine was a textured pale green material,
which I assume is CO2 tolerant. But airline tubing is cheap, so even
if it should fail over time it's not a big deal to replace.

--
www.ericschreiber.com

[Tzeentch]

> That's what I think, too. However, sometimes one large bubble gets stuck
at
> the very bottom of the diffuser right next to the bubble-producing nozzle.
> In this case almost every new bubble bounces off the large one, misses the
> diffuser and shoots straight to the surface.

Yeah, it seems to do that here too, except it doesn't do that very often, so
my guess is that it's not that big of an issue. Especially in your 5.5
gallon tank.

> Initially I wanted to by only the diffuser from one of the online stores.
> But later I decided to go the faster way and bought the whole thing at
LFS.
> I don't regret it though. My tank is small (5.5 gal) and the whole thing
> fits it pretty well.

That's what I did too, I was checking all the component necessary to DIY and
decided it was too much trouble. I think I'll still buy everything little
bit by little bit to set up a nice DIY with 2 bottles, Gas Separator,
Silicon (or Tygon if I can find some) tubing, and I'll keep the difuser
(bubble counter) and make some kind of a stand for all of this at the back
of my tank.

> BTW, according to the installation instructions, the nozzle can be
attached
> to the diffuser at three different points, deepening on the size of the
> tank. The smaller is the tank - the higher the nozzle is supposed to be
> attached. With my 5.5 I was supposed to go with the topmost (shallowest)
> attachment point, but I ignored this recommendation and went with the
> deepest one to give bubbles more travel time. Does anybody know what is
the
> importance of this recommendation in the installation instructions?

Check your PH often, if it goes down too much set-it up the nozzle higher or
increase surface turbulence. Your fish most probably won't die from oxygen
depravation, but they might die of blood acidosis.

> > I don't know about you, but I was a bit disapointed by some part (of
lack
> > thereof) of the kit. No check-valve?
>
> Yeah. I bought one separately right away.

Anybody know where I can buy CO2 specific check valves? Two different
hardware store don't have that, and the LFS don't either. What kind of
store should I be looking for? Any online place where I could buy that?

> > The tube seems made of vinyl(?)
> > instead of a better material like silicone.
>
> Hmm... I thought I read it somewhere either in the installation
instructions
> or on the box that the tube is specifically suited for CO2 applications
(or
> something to that effect). Just some marketing BS?

It says, in the instruction "CO2-resistant Tubing -not affected by CO2
contact". But says nothing of what kind of material it's made of. I am
feeling a bit skeptical about the kind of tubing used, it does feel like
vinyl, but I might be wrong, please somebody correct me if I'm in error.

[Eric Schreiber]

Eric Schreiber > wrote:

>Huh. Perhaps that's a design change, as I don't think mine has
>multiple connection points - just the lowest one.

I'm wrong, mine does have multiple connection points. They're just so
caked in algae that I couldn't see them.

Time to do a removal and thorough cleaning of the diffuser, I expect.

--
www.ericschreiber.com

[JEB]

Tzeentch wrote:
> Anybody know where I can buy CO2 specific check valves?

here's the Cadillac:
http://www.floridadriftwood.com/product.asp?0=217&1=253&3=301
Feel free to pick your jaw back up off the ground after you check the price.

James

[Ronaldo Jeremiah]

Andrey Tarasevich > wrote in message >...
> Hello
>
> I notice that instead of going all the way up CO2 bubbles are collecting in my
> new Hagen Nutrafin diffuser forming larger bubbles that just sit there all the
> time. I tried forcing them out of there but eventually they reappear. Meanwhile,
> I saw a working setup in my LFS and it didn't have any bubbles stuck in it. I
> also read somewhere on Google that this is normal for freshly installed
> diffusers and eventually this issue will go away. Did anyone experience this
> problem with their Nutrafin diffusers? Will the diffuser eventually clear up?
> And if it will, what's the physics of this process? I.e. what exactly is going
> to change so that the diffuser will no longer trap and hold CO2 bubbles?

I've got one of these two. I think it's great, and I'm totally
satisfied with it. As other have noted, the bubbles will begin to
travel properly on their own after a while.

My question is this: What is the stabilizer? I know that the
activator is yeast, and I suspect that the stabilizer works by somehow
regulating the pH in the yeast/sugar/water mix, but even if I am right
about that I don't know what it is. If I knew what it was, I could
probably buy it much cheaper in bulk, since a three-pack of activator
and stabilizer is about $8! I know the yeast should cost next to
nothing.

Anyone know what the stabilizer is, or want to take an educated guess?

-RJ

[Zach987987987]

simple baking soda,
I have the system as well but it was so hard to find refill packages of the
powder I went to just the old yeast and sugar with a little baking soda to
regualte the reaction, just mix it as the instructions said with their mix and
your off<<
My question is this: What is the stabilizer? I know that the
activator is yeast, and I suspect that the stabilizer works by somehow
regulating the pH in the yeast/sugar/water mix, but even if I am right
about that I don't know what it is. If I knew what it was, I could
probably buy it much cheaper in bulk, since a three-pack of activator
and stabilizer is about $8! I know the yeast should cost next to
nothing.

Anyone know what the stabilizer is, or want to take an educated guess?

-RJ





>>

[Tzeentch]

Some people speculated that it's probably baking soda (Sodium Bicarbonate),
probaly since it can be used as a pretty good buffer. That's just
speculation though and I haven't seen anybody being positive on whatever is
in that packet.

"Ronaldo Jeremiah" > wrote in message
om...

> I've got one of these two. I think it's great, and I'm totally
> satisfied with it. As other have noted, the bubbles will begin to
> travel properly on their own after a while.
>
> My question is this: What is the stabilizer? I know that the
> activator is yeast, and I suspect that the stabilizer works by somehow
> regulating the pH in the yeast/sugar/water mix, but even if I am right
> about that I don't know what it is. If I knew what it was, I could
> probably buy it much cheaper in bulk, since a three-pack of activator
> and stabilizer is about $8! I know the yeast should cost next to
> nothing.
>
> Anyone know what the stabilizer is, or want to take an educated guess?
>
> -RJ

[Ron Nelson]

If one wanted to get a better idea as to the contents of the stabilizer,
couldn't you measure out the same amounts of it and of baking soda and put
them in two identical sized containers of water that have been tested for KH
before, then check the KH after adding? At least then you might have a
better idea wouldn't you?

Ron

"Tzeentch" > wrote in message
...
> Some people speculated that it's probably baking soda (Sodium
Bicarbonate),
> probaly since it can be used as a pretty good buffer. That's just
> speculation though and I haven't seen anybody being positive on whatever
is
> in that packet.
>
> "Ronaldo Jeremiah" > wrote in message
> om...
>
> > I've got one of these two. I think it's great, and I'm totally
> > satisfied with it. As other have noted, the bubbles will begin to
> > travel properly on their own after a while.
> >
> > My question is this: What is the stabilizer? I know that the
> > activator is yeast, and I suspect that the stabilizer works by somehow
> > regulating the pH in the yeast/sugar/water mix, but even if I am right
> > about that I don't know what it is. If I knew what it was, I could
> > probably buy it much cheaper in bulk, since a three-pack of activator
> > and stabilizer is about $8! I know the yeast should cost next to
> > nothing.
> >
> > Anyone know what the stabilizer is, or want to take an educated guess?
> >
> > -RJ
>
>

[Tzeentch]

Incredible that they get away selling that stuff at that price.

Anyway, as I said earlier, I wanna keep the diffuser and build a DIY CO2
system for the rest. With CO2 check valves (if I can find those around
here, no luck yet), 2 yeast generator bottle, a gas separator and silicone
or better tubing.

BTW, anybody tried to use non-refined brown sugar like cane sugar in the mix
instead of what the instructions says: "Add white table sugar (no other
substitute)"?

"Zach987987987" > wrote in message
...
> simple baking soda,
> I have the system as well but it was so hard to find refill packages of
the
> powder I went to just the old yeast and sugar with a little baking soda to
> regualte the reaction, just mix it as the instructions said with their mix
and
> your off

[Jak Crow]

On Wed, 4 Jun 2003 01:42:45 -0600, "Ron Nelson" > wrote:

>If one wanted to get a better idea as to the contents of the stabilizer,
>couldn't you measure out the same amounts of it and of baking soda and put
>them in two identical sized containers of water that have been tested for KH
>before, then check the KH after adding? At least then you might have a
>better idea wouldn't you?

Of course, someone could just taste it and see. :)

[Ronaldo Jeremiah]

Andrey Tarasevich > wrote in message >...
> Hello
>
> I notice that instead of going all the way up CO2 bubbles are collecting in my
> new Hagen Nutrafin diffuser forming larger bubbles that just sit there all the
> time. I tried forcing them out of there but eventually they reappear. Meanwhile,
> I saw a working setup in my LFS and it didn't have any bubbles stuck in it. I
> also read somewhere on Google that this is normal for freshly installed
> diffusers and eventually this issue will go away. Did anyone experience this
> problem with their Nutrafin diffusers? Will the diffuser eventually clear up?
> And if it will, what's the physics of this process? I.e. what exactly is going
> to change so that the diffuser will no longer trap and hold CO2 bubbles?

I've got one of these two. I think it's great, and I'm totally
satisfied with it. As other have noted, the bubbles will begin to
travel properly on their own after a while.

My question is this: What is the stabilizer? I know that the
activator is yeast, and I suspect that the stabilizer works by somehow
regulating the pH in the yeast/sugar/water mix, but even if I am right
about that I don't know what it is. If I knew what it was, I could
probably buy it much cheaper in bulk, since a three-pack of activator
and stabilizer is about $8! I know the yeast should cost next to
nothing.

Anyone know what the stabilizer is, or want to take an educated guess?

-RJ

[Zach987987987]

simple baking soda,
I have the system as well but it was so hard to find refill packages of the
powder I went to just the old yeast and sugar with a little baking soda to
regualte the reaction, just mix it as the instructions said with their mix and
your off<<
My question is this: What is the stabilizer? I know that the
activator is yeast, and I suspect that the stabilizer works by somehow
regulating the pH in the yeast/sugar/water mix, but even if I am right
about that I don't know what it is. If I knew what it was, I could
probably buy it much cheaper in bulk, since a three-pack of activator
and stabilizer is about $8! I know the yeast should cost next to
nothing.

Anyone know what the stabilizer is, or want to take an educated guess?

-RJ





>>

[Ron Nelson]

If one wanted to get a better idea as to the contents of the stabilizer,
couldn't you measure out the same amounts of it and of baking soda and put
them in two identical sized containers of water that have been tested for KH
before, then check the KH after adding? At least then you might have a
better idea wouldn't you?

Ron

"Tzeentch" > wrote in message
...
> Some people speculated that it's probably baking soda (Sodium
Bicarbonate),
> probaly since it can be used as a pretty good buffer. That's just
> speculation though and I haven't seen anybody being positive on whatever
is
> in that packet.
>
> "Ronaldo Jeremiah" > wrote in message
> om...
>
> > I've got one of these two. I think it's great, and I'm totally
> > satisfied with it. As other have noted, the bubbles will begin to
> > travel properly on their own after a while.
> >
> > My question is this: What is the stabilizer? I know that the
> > activator is yeast, and I suspect that the stabilizer works by somehow
> > regulating the pH in the yeast/sugar/water mix, but even if I am right
> > about that I don't know what it is. If I knew what it was, I could
> > probably buy it much cheaper in bulk, since a three-pack of activator
> > and stabilizer is about $8! I know the yeast should cost next to
> > nothing.
> >
> > Anyone know what the stabilizer is, or want to take an educated guess?
> >
> > -RJ
>
>

[Tzeentch]

Some people speculated that it's probably baking soda (Sodium Bicarbonate),
probaly since it can be used as a pretty good buffer. That's just
speculation though and I haven't seen anybody being positive on whatever is
in that packet.

"Ronaldo Jeremiah" > wrote in message
om...

> I've got one of these two. I think it's great, and I'm totally
> satisfied with it. As other have noted, the bubbles will begin to
> travel properly on their own after a while.
>
> My question is this: What is the stabilizer? I know that the
> activator is yeast, and I suspect that the stabilizer works by somehow
> regulating the pH in the yeast/sugar/water mix, but even if I am right
> about that I don't know what it is. If I knew what it was, I could
> probably buy it much cheaper in bulk, since a three-pack of activator
> and stabilizer is about $8! I know the yeast should cost next to
> nothing.
>
> Anyone know what the stabilizer is, or want to take an educated guess?
>
> -RJ

[Tzeentch]

Incredible that they get away selling that stuff at that price.

Anyway, as I said earlier, I wanna keep the diffuser and build a DIY CO2
system for the rest. With CO2 check valves (if I can find those around
here, no luck yet), 2 yeast generator bottle, a gas separator and silicone
or better tubing.

BTW, anybody tried to use non-refined brown sugar like cane sugar in the mix
instead of what the instructions says: "Add white table sugar (no other
substitute)"?

"Zach987987987" > wrote in message
...
> simple baking soda,
> I have the system as well but it was so hard to find refill packages of
the
> powder I went to just the old yeast and sugar with a little baking soda to
> regualte the reaction, just mix it as the instructions said with their mix
and
> your off

[Jak Crow]

On Wed, 4 Jun 2003 01:42:45 -0600, "Ron Nelson" > wrote:

>If one wanted to get a better idea as to the contents of the stabilizer,
>couldn't you measure out the same amounts of it and of baking soda and put
>them in two identical sized containers of water that have been tested for KH
>before, then check the KH after adding? At least then you might have a
>better idea wouldn't you?

Of course, someone could just taste it and see. :)

[Ron Nelson]

Call me a chicken but I try to avoid submitting myself to unknown
chemicals... :-)

Ron

"Jak Crow" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 4 Jun 2003 01:42:45 -0600, "Ron Nelson" > wrote:
>
> >If one wanted to get a better idea as to the contents of the stabilizer,
> >couldn't you measure out the same amounts of it and of baking soda and
put
> >them in two identical sized containers of water that have been tested for
KH
> >before, then check the KH after adding? At least then you might have a
> >better idea wouldn't you?
>
> Of course, someone could just taste it and see. :)

[Duncan A. McRae]

Just as a matter of interest, what did you do during your college years...?
;)

"Ron Nelson" > wrote in message
...
> Call me a chicken but I try to avoid submitting myself to unknown
> chemicals... :-)

[Ron Nelson]

"Duncan A. McRae" > wrote in message
. rogers.com...
> Just as a matter of interest, what did you do during your college
years...?
> ;)

I don't really remember college, but I researched every single one of those
chemicals before I tried them. :-)

Ron

[Graham Broadbridge]

The stabilizer is baking soda


"Ronaldo Jeremiah" > wrote in message
om...
> Andrey Tarasevich > wrote in message
>...
> > Hello
> >
> > I notice that instead of going all the way up CO2 bubbles are collecting
in my
> > new Hagen Nutrafin diffuser forming larger bubbles that just sit there
all the
> > time. I tried forcing them out of there but eventually they reappear.
Meanwhile,
> > I saw a working setup in my LFS and it didn't have any bubbles stuck in
it. I
> > also read somewhere on Google that this is normal for freshly installed
> > diffusers and eventually this issue will go away. Did anyone experience
this
> > problem with their Nutrafin diffusers? Will the diffuser eventually
clear up?
> > And if it will, what's the physics of this process? I.e. what exactly is
going
> > to change so that the diffuser will no longer trap and hold CO2 bubbles?
>
> I've got one of these two. I think it's great, and I'm totally
> satisfied with it. As other have noted, the bubbles will begin to
> travel properly on their own after a while.
>
> My question is this: What is the stabilizer? I know that the
> activator is yeast, and I suspect that the stabilizer works by somehow
> regulating the pH in the yeast/sugar/water mix, but even if I am right
> about that I don't know what it is. If I knew what it was, I could
> probably buy it much cheaper in bulk, since a three-pack of activator
> and stabilizer is about $8! I know the yeast should cost next to
> nothing.
>
> Anyone know what the stabilizer is, or want to take an educated guess?
>
> -RJ

[Graham Broadbridge]

ROFL!!

> I don't really remember college, but I researched every single one of
those
> chemicals before I tried them. :-)
>
> Ron
>
>

[Phil Dietz]

My diffuser had a cracked rung, so make sure your's isn't similar.
Hagen replaced mine for free.

Also make sure your unwanted snail population isn't causing the bubble
to jam.

And also make sure that the blue-green algea accumulated on the rungs
is kept in order. If it gets too plentiful it'll make the bubbles
stick...

[Tzeentch]

Are you talking about the "Plant-Gro CO2 Natural System"? I bought one of
those yesterday and it's doing the exact same thing.
It's not elegant, but it's probably a good thing. Bubbles, while remaining
more or less stationary, get more time to disolve in the water, I guess.

Did you buy only the diffuser (bubble counter), or the whole setup? I
bought the whole set-up, but now I'm thinking I probably should have bought
only the diffuser (Bubble counter) and DIY the rest.

I don't know about you, but I was a bit disapointed by some part (of lack
thereof) of the kit. No check-valve? The tube seems made of vinyl(?)
instead of a better material like silicone.

"Andrey Tarasevich" > wrote in message
...
> I notice that instead of going all the way up CO2 bubbles are collecting
in my
> new Hagen Nutrafin diffuser forming larger bubbles that just sit there all
the
> time. I tried forcing them out of there but eventually they reappear.
Meanwhile,
> I saw a working setup in my LFS and it didn't have any bubbles stuck in
it. I
> also read somewhere on Google that this is normal for freshly installed
> diffusers and eventually this issue will go away. Did anyone experience
this
> problem with their Nutrafin diffusers? Will the diffuser eventually clear
up?
> And if it will, what's the physics of this process? I.e. what exactly is
going
> to change so that the diffuser will no longer trap and hold CO2 bubbles?

[Paul Disdle]

I bought one on saturday the whole kit and was told by my LFS this would
happen and this means better diffusion.

Paul

[Philip Ash]

Hi guys.
I have two of these and yes they do this to start with.
I am not sure exactly why, but it does go away after a period of time.
You actually see the point at which the bubbles stop, work its way up the
diffuser.

Phil.


--
Please remove the nospam. from the reply address.
"Paul Disdle" > wrote in message
...
> I bought one on saturday the whole kit and was told by my LFS this would
> happen and this means better diffusion.
>
> Paul
>
>

[David Wee]

I had the same problem with mine initially. It lasts for about a day or
so. I think the issue is that the plastic is so fresh it has certain
properties when not immersed, and neeeds time to "become one" with the
eventual slime that will coat it. Basically its a matter of "greasing" the
pipeline, and just leaving it in the tank will facilitate this (just dont
mess with it, it'll start going up the ramps without stopping).


In article >,
Andrey Tarasevich > wrote:
>Hello
>
>I notice that instead of going all the way up CO2 bubbles are collecting in my
>new Hagen Nutrafin diffuser forming larger bubbles that just sit there all the
>time. I tried forcing them out of there but eventually they reappear. Meanwhile,
>I saw a working setup in my LFS and it didn't have any bubbles stuck in it. I
>also read somewhere on Google that this is normal for freshly installed
>diffusers and eventually this issue will go away. Did anyone experience this
>problem with their Nutrafin diffusers? Will the diffuser eventually clear up?
>And if it will, what's the physics of this process? I.e. what exactly is going
>to change so that the diffuser will no longer trap and hold CO2 bubbles?
>
>--
>Best regards,
>Andrey Tarasevich
>


--

[Andrey Tarasevich]

Tzeentch wrote:
> Are you talking about the "Plant-Gro CO2 Natural System"? I bought one of
> those yesterday and it's doing the exact same thing.
> It's not elegant, but it's probably a good thing. Bubbles, while remaining
> more or less stationary, get more time to disolve in the water, I guess.

That's what I think, too. However, sometimes one large bubble gets stuck at
the very bottom of the diffuser right next to the bubble-producing nozzle.
In this case almost every new bubble bounces off the large one, misses the
diffuser and shoots straight to the surface.

> Did you buy only the diffuser (bubble counter), or the whole setup? I
> bought the whole set-up, but now I'm thinking I probably should have bought
> only the diffuser (Bubble counter) and DIY the rest.

Initially I wanted to by only the diffuser from one of the online stores.
But later I decided to go the faster way and bought the whole thing at LFS.
I don't regret it though. My tank is small (5.5 gal) and the whole thing
fits it pretty well.

BTW, according to the installation instructions, the nozzle can be attached
to the diffuser at three different points, deepening on the size of the
tank. The smaller is the tank - the higher the nozzle is supposed to be
attached. With my 5.5 I was supposed to go with the topmost (shallowest)
attachment point, but I ignored this recommendation and went with the
deepest one to give bubbles more travel time. Does anybody know what is the
importance of this recommendation in the installation instructions?

> I don't know about you, but I was a bit disapointed by some part (of lack
> thereof) of the kit. No check-valve?

Yeah. I bought one separately right away.

> The tube seems made of vinyl(?)
> instead of a better material like silicone.

Hmm... I thought I read it somewhere either in the installation instructions
or on the box that the tube is specifically suited for CO2 applications (or
something to that effect). Just some marketing BS?

--
Best regards,
Andrey Tarasevich

[LeighMo]

>The smaller is the tank - the higher the nozzle is supposed to be
>attached. With my 5.5 I was supposed to go with the topmost (shallowest)
>attachment point, but I ignored this recommendation and went with the
>deepest one to give bubbles more travel time. Does anybody know what is the
>importance of this recommendation in the installation instructions?

The deeper you put the diffuser, the more time the CO2 has to dissolve in the
water. More isn't always better with CO2. You can poison the fish. It's not
likely with DIY CO2 in a large tank, but with a 5.5 gallon tank, you have to be
careful. Measure your pH and KH, check the charts, and make sure you aren't
poisoning your fish.


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

[Eric Schreiber]

Andrey Tarasevich > wrote:

>I notice that instead of going all the way up CO2 bubbles are collecting in my
>new Hagen Nutrafin diffuser forming larger bubbles that just sit there all the
>time. I tried forcing them out of there but eventually they reappear. Meanwhile,
>I saw a working setup in my LFS and it didn't have any bubbles stuck in it. I
>also read somewhere on Google that this is normal for freshly installed
>diffusers and eventually this issue will go away. Did anyone experience this
>problem with their Nutrafin diffusers? Will the diffuser eventually clear up?
>And if it will, what's the physics of this process? I.e. what exactly is going
>to change so that the diffuser will no longer trap and hold CO2 bubbles?

Happened to me as well when I first installed my diffuser. After a few
days the bubbles started to travel the entire path.

I'd expect it's caused by some manufacturing residue, perhaps a mold
release compound used when the diffuser was made. You might try giving
it a thorough cleaning with hot water and a tooth brush, but that's
probably overkill.

Of course, you will have to clean the diffuser from time to time
anyway, as it will tend to collect a lot of debris. About once a week
I use a toothbrush on mine, followed by blasts from a turkey baster to
get the far side of it cleaned up. This keeps me from having to pull
the whole thing out (which is a lot more trouble than I generally want
to go through).

--
www.ericschreiber.com

[Eric Schreiber]

Andrey Tarasevich > wrote:

>BTW, according to the installation instructions, the nozzle can be attached
>to the diffuser at three different points, deepening on the size of the
>tank. The smaller is the tank - the higher the nozzle is supposed to be
>attached. With my 5.5 I was supposed to go with the topmost (shallowest)
>attachment point, but I ignored this recommendation and went with the
>deepest one to give bubbles more travel time. Does anybody know what is the
>importance of this recommendation in the installation instructions?

Huh. Perhaps that's a design change, as I don't think mine has
multiple connection points - just the lowest one. If you had a really
consistent source of CO2 it might be worth playing with, but using
yeast based systems, you're going to get a lot of variability no
matter what, so I doubt that you'll get much mileage out of having
different connection points.

Best advice is probably to just hook it up and monitor water
conditions, and see if it needs adjusting.

>> The tube seems made of vinyl(?)
>> instead of a better material like silicone.

>Hmm... I thought I read it somewhere either in the installation instructions
>or on the box that the tube is specifically suited for CO2 applications (or
>something to that effect). Just some marketing BS?

The tubing that came with mine was a textured pale green material,
which I assume is CO2 tolerant. But airline tubing is cheap, so even
if it should fail over time it's not a big deal to replace.

--
www.ericschreiber.com

[Tzeentch]

> That's what I think, too. However, sometimes one large bubble gets stuck
at
> the very bottom of the diffuser right next to the bubble-producing nozzle.
> In this case almost every new bubble bounces off the large one, misses the
> diffuser and shoots straight to the surface.

Yeah, it seems to do that here too, except it doesn't do that very often, so
my guess is that it's not that big of an issue. Especially in your 5.5
gallon tank.

> Initially I wanted to by only the diffuser from one of the online stores.
> But later I decided to go the faster way and bought the whole thing at
LFS.
> I don't regret it though. My tank is small (5.5 gal) and the whole thing
> fits it pretty well.

That's what I did too, I was checking all the component necessary to DIY and
decided it was too much trouble. I think I'll still buy everything little
bit by little bit to set up a nice DIY with 2 bottles, Gas Separator,
Silicon (or Tygon if I can find some) tubing, and I'll keep the difuser
(bubble counter) and make some kind of a stand for all of this at the back
of my tank.

> BTW, according to the installation instructions, the nozzle can be
attached
> to the diffuser at three different points, deepening on the size of the
> tank. The smaller is the tank - the higher the nozzle is supposed to be
> attached. With my 5.5 I was supposed to go with the topmost (shallowest)
> attachment point, but I ignored this recommendation and went with the
> deepest one to give bubbles more travel time. Does anybody know what is
the
> importance of this recommendation in the installation instructions?

Check your PH often, if it goes down too much set-it up the nozzle higher or
increase surface turbulence. Your fish most probably won't die from oxygen
depravation, but they might die of blood acidosis.

> > I don't know about you, but I was a bit disapointed by some part (of
lack
> > thereof) of the kit. No check-valve?
>
> Yeah. I bought one separately right away.

Anybody know where I can buy CO2 specific check valves? Two different
hardware store don't have that, and the LFS don't either. What kind of
store should I be looking for? Any online place where I could buy that?

> > The tube seems made of vinyl(?)
> > instead of a better material like silicone.
>
> Hmm... I thought I read it somewhere either in the installation
instructions
> or on the box that the tube is specifically suited for CO2 applications
(or
> something to that effect). Just some marketing BS?

It says, in the instruction "CO2-resistant Tubing -not affected by CO2
contact". But says nothing of what kind of material it's made of. I am
feeling a bit skeptical about the kind of tubing used, it does feel like
vinyl, but I might be wrong, please somebody correct me if I'm in error.

[Eric Schreiber]

Eric Schreiber > wrote:

>Huh. Perhaps that's a design change, as I don't think mine has
>multiple connection points - just the lowest one.

I'm wrong, mine does have multiple connection points. They're just so
caked in algae that I couldn't see them.

Time to do a removal and thorough cleaning of the diffuser, I expect.

--
www.ericschreiber.com

[JEB]

Tzeentch wrote:
> Anybody know where I can buy CO2 specific check valves?

here's the Cadillac:
http://www.floridadriftwood.com/product.asp?0=217&1=253&3=301
Feel free to pick your jaw back up off the ground after you check the price.

James

[Ronaldo Jeremiah]

Andrey Tarasevich > wrote in message >...
> Hello
>
> I notice that instead of going all the way up CO2 bubbles are collecting in my
> new Hagen Nutrafin diffuser forming larger bubbles that just sit there all the
> time. I tried forcing them out of there but eventually they reappear. Meanwhile,
> I saw a working setup in my LFS and it didn't have any bubbles stuck in it. I
> also read somewhere on Google that this is normal for freshly installed
> diffusers and eventually this issue will go away. Did anyone experience this
> problem with their Nutrafin diffusers? Will the diffuser eventually clear up?
> And if it will, what's the physics of this process? I.e. what exactly is going
> to change so that the diffuser will no longer trap and hold CO2 bubbles?

I've got one of these two. I think it's great, and I'm totally
satisfied with it. As other have noted, the bubbles will begin to
travel properly on their own after a while.

My question is this: What is the stabilizer? I know that the
activator is yeast, and I suspect that the stabilizer works by somehow
regulating the pH in the yeast/sugar/water mix, but even if I am right
about that I don't know what it is. If I knew what it was, I could
probably buy it much cheaper in bulk, since a three-pack of activator
and stabilizer is about $8! I know the yeast should cost next to
nothing.

Anyone know what the stabilizer is, or want to take an educated guess?

-RJ

[Zach987987987]

simple baking soda,
I have the system as well but it was so hard to find refill packages of the
powder I went to just the old yeast and sugar with a little baking soda to
regualte the reaction, just mix it as the instructions said with their mix and
your off<<
My question is this: What is the stabilizer? I know that the
activator is yeast, and I suspect that the stabilizer works by somehow
regulating the pH in the yeast/sugar/water mix, but even if I am right
about that I don't know what it is. If I knew what it was, I could
probably buy it much cheaper in bulk, since a three-pack of activator
and stabilizer is about $8! I know the yeast should cost next to
nothing.

Anyone know what the stabilizer is, or want to take an educated guess?

-RJ





>>

[Tzeentch]

Some people speculated that it's probably baking soda (Sodium Bicarbonate),
probaly since it can be used as a pretty good buffer. That's just
speculation though and I haven't seen anybody being positive on whatever is
in that packet.

"Ronaldo Jeremiah" > wrote in message
om...

> I've got one of these two. I think it's great, and I'm totally
> satisfied with it. As other have noted, the bubbles will begin to
> travel properly on their own after a while.
>
> My question is this: What is the stabilizer? I know that the
> activator is yeast, and I suspect that the stabilizer works by somehow
> regulating the pH in the yeast/sugar/water mix, but even if I am right
> about that I don't know what it is. If I knew what it was, I could
> probably buy it much cheaper in bulk, since a three-pack of activator
> and stabilizer is about $8! I know the yeast should cost next to
> nothing.
>
> Anyone know what the stabilizer is, or want to take an educated guess?
>
> -RJ

[Ron Nelson]

If one wanted to get a better idea as to the contents of the stabilizer,
couldn't you measure out the same amounts of it and of baking soda and put
them in two identical sized containers of water that have been tested for KH
before, then check the KH after adding? At least then you might have a
better idea wouldn't you?

Ron

"Tzeentch" > wrote in message
...
> Some people speculated that it's probably baking soda (Sodium
Bicarbonate),
> probaly since it can be used as a pretty good buffer. That's just
> speculation though and I haven't seen anybody being positive on whatever
is
> in that packet.
>
> "Ronaldo Jeremiah" > wrote in message
> om...
>
> > I've got one of these two. I think it's great, and I'm totally
> > satisfied with it. As other have noted, the bubbles will begin to
> > travel properly on their own after a while.
> >
> > My question is this: What is the stabilizer? I know that the
> > activator is yeast, and I suspect that the stabilizer works by somehow
> > regulating the pH in the yeast/sugar/water mix, but even if I am right
> > about that I don't know what it is. If I knew what it was, I could
> > probably buy it much cheaper in bulk, since a three-pack of activator
> > and stabilizer is about $8! I know the yeast should cost next to
> > nothing.
> >
> > Anyone know what the stabilizer is, or want to take an educated guess?
> >
> > -RJ
>
>

[Tzeentch]

Incredible that they get away selling that stuff at that price.

Anyway, as I said earlier, I wanna keep the diffuser and build a DIY CO2
system for the rest. With CO2 check valves (if I can find those around
here, no luck yet), 2 yeast generator bottle, a gas separator and silicone
or better tubing.

BTW, anybody tried to use non-refined brown sugar like cane sugar in the mix
instead of what the instructions says: "Add white table sugar (no other
substitute)"?

"Zach987987987" > wrote in message
...
> simple baking soda,
> I have the system as well but it was so hard to find refill packages of
the
> powder I went to just the old yeast and sugar with a little baking soda to
> regualte the reaction, just mix it as the instructions said with their mix
and
> your off

[Jak Crow]

On Wed, 4 Jun 2003 01:42:45 -0600, "Ron Nelson" > wrote:

>If one wanted to get a better idea as to the contents of the stabilizer,
>couldn't you measure out the same amounts of it and of baking soda and put
>them in two identical sized containers of water that have been tested for KH
>before, then check the KH after adding? At least then you might have a
>better idea wouldn't you?

Of course, someone could just taste it and see. :)

[Ron Nelson]

Call me a chicken but I try to avoid submitting myself to unknown
chemicals... :-)

Ron

"Jak Crow" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 4 Jun 2003 01:42:45 -0600, "Ron Nelson" > wrote:
>
> >If one wanted to get a better idea as to the contents of the stabilizer,
> >couldn't you measure out the same amounts of it and of baking soda and
put
> >them in two identical sized containers of water that have been tested for
KH
> >before, then check the KH after adding? At least then you might have a
> >better idea wouldn't you?
>
> Of course, someone could just taste it and see. :)

[Duncan A. McRae]

Just as a matter of interest, what did you do during your college years...?
;)

"Ron Nelson" > wrote in message
...
> Call me a chicken but I try to avoid submitting myself to unknown
> chemicals... :-)

[Ron Nelson]

"Duncan A. McRae" > wrote in message
. rogers.com...
> Just as a matter of interest, what did you do during your college
years...?
> ;)

I don't really remember college, but I researched every single one of those
chemicals before I tried them. :-)

Ron