Baby Shampoo as Horticultural Soap

[paghat]

I dunno that I'll ever have need of this little tidbit, but it kinda
interested me, as I used to use dishwashing soap as a horticultural soap
to get rid of aphids, until I discovered a good hard spray of water did
the job just as well, without injury to ladybug larvae. Jerry Baker
(thuggish anti-marijuana hippy-head-bashing police officer cum "America's
Master Gardener") suggests using baby shampoo instead of dishwashing OR
horticultural soap, because baby shampoo has a very small amount of
fungicide in it as well. That was news to me, but interesting, & possibly
useful to know.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

[TOM KAN PA]

Speaking of aphids, is it possible that the aphids that appear on my Staghorn
Fern are actually spores?

[Pam]

TOM KAN PA wrote:

> Speaking of aphids, is it possible that the aphids that appear on my Staghorn
> Fern are actually spores?

More likely than not. I have yet to see aphids bother any species of fern, even
tropical, epiphytic ferns.

pam - gardengal

[Valkyrie]

I have always used Dr Bonners liquid peppermint soap on my plants for years.
I used it on my babies 30 years ago too, and they never once had an aphid or
fungus show up on them! ;-)

Val


"paghat" > wrote in message
...
> I dunno that I'll ever have need of this little tidbit, but it kinda
> interested me, as I used to use dishwashing soap as a horticultural soap
> to get rid of aphids, until I discovered a good hard spray of water did
> the job just as well, without injury to ladybug larvae. Jerry Baker
> (thuggish anti-marijuana hippy-head-bashing police officer cum "America's
> Master Gardener") suggests using baby shampoo instead of dishwashing OR
> horticultural soap, because baby shampoo has a very small amount of
> fungicide in it as well. That was news to me, but interesting, & possibly
> useful to know.
>
> -paghat the ratgirl
>
> --
> "Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
> "Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
> -from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
> See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

[animaux]

On 01 Aug 2003 19:39:35 GMT, (TOM KAN PA) wrote:

>Speaking of aphids, is it possible that the aphids that appear on my Staghorn
>Fern are actually spores?
>

Without a photo hard to tell, but I know my staghorn fern gets scale insects
from time to time.

[animaux]

The important part of horticultural soap is the level of fatty acid it has as
its active ingredient.

This is what's in baby shampoo by the brand name:

Johnson's Baby Shampoo - moisturizing formula with honey & vitamin E
water ,PEG-80 sorbitan laurate, cocamidopropyl betaine, sodium trideceth
sulfate, glycerin, PEG-150 disterate, disodium lauroamphodi-acetate, sodium
laureth-13, carboxylate, fragrance, poly-quaternium-10, honey, tocopherol
acetate, tetrasodium EDTA, quaterium-15,FD&C yellow #6, FD&C yellow #5, FD&C red
#4, FD&C red #33, FD&C blue #1


Which of the above ingredients is a fungicide? Possibly if an uppity health
food store sells one with tea tree oil in it, possibly he is referring to that.
Maybe one of the listed above is from tea tree oil or neem tree oil.


I don't see where there is fatty acid in the above listing, but that is what
causes the contact pesticide, insecticidal soap, effective. I know you know
that, but many people may not know that.

When I use baby shampoo, my hands don't burn. When I get fatty acid found in
insecticidal soap on my skin, it burns.

Jerry Baker? Could there be a more ignorant asshole on television selling his
stupid shit? I doubt it.

On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 09:31:36 -0700, (paghat)
wrote:

>I dunno that I'll ever have need of this little tidbit, but it kinda
>interested me, as I used to use dishwashing soap as a horticultural soap
>to get rid of aphids, until I discovered a good hard spray of water did
>the job just as well, without injury to ladybug larvae. Jerry Baker
>(thuggish anti-marijuana hippy-head-bashing police officer cum "America's
>Master Gardener") suggests using baby shampoo instead of dishwashing OR
>horticultural soap, because baby shampoo has a very small amount of
>fungicide in it as well. That was news to me, but interesting, & possibly
>useful to know.
>
>-paghat the ratgirl

[Beecrofter]

(paghat) wrote in message >...
> I dunno that I'll ever have need of this little tidbit, but it kinda
> interested me, as I used to use dishwashing soap as a horticultural soap
> to get rid of aphids, until I discovered a good hard spray of water did
> the job just as well, without injury to ladybug larvae. Jerry Baker
> (thuggish anti-marijuana hippy-head-bashing police officer cum "America's
> Master Gardener") suggests using baby shampoo instead of dishwashing OR
> horticultural soap, because baby shampoo has a very small amount of
> fungicide in it as well. That was news to me, but interesting, & possibly
> useful to know.
>
> -paghat the ratgirl

Ivory bar soap swished around until the water looks a bit gray works fine.
I wonder how Dr Bronners does?

[paghat]

In article <1059767771.100031@yasure>, "Valkyrie" > wrote:

> I have always used Dr Bonners liquid peppermint soap on my plants for years.
> I used it on my babies 30 years ago too, and they never once had an aphid or
> fungus show up on them! ;-)
>
> Val

Ooo! Loved that Dr Bonners' ABCs of Rabbi Hillel's Splendid Easy 1-2-3 of
Eternal Wisdom!
The founder of that company was believed by his family to be a complete
nut with his silly-ass stoned-sounding philosophy printed all over the
labels, & no one had much to do with him or his company while he was
alive. When the guy died, though, the family discovered belatedly that he
was crazy likea fox, making millions, & suddenly everyone greatly valued
his splendid label-writings.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

[Valkyrie]

"Beecrofter" > wrote in message
om...
> (paghat) wrote in message
>...
> > I dunno that I'll ever have need of this little tidbit, but it kinda
> > interested me, as I used to use dishwashing soap as a horticultural soap
> > to get rid of aphids, until I discovered a good hard spray of water did
> > the job just as well, without injury to ladybug larvae. Jerry Baker
> > (thuggish anti-marijuana hippy-head-bashing police officer cum
"America's
> > Master Gardener") suggests using baby shampoo instead of dishwashing OR
> > horticultural soap, because baby shampoo has a very small amount of
> > fungicide in it as well. That was news to me, but interesting, &
possibly
> > useful to know.
> >
> > -paghat the ratgirl
>
> Ivory bar soap swished around until the water looks a bit gray works fine.
> I wonder how Dr Bronners does?

Dr Bonners works great!

Val

[paghat]

In article >,
(paghat) wrote:

> I dunno that I'll ever have need of this little tidbit, but it kinda
> interested me, as I used to use dishwashing soap as a horticultural soap
> to get rid of aphids, until I discovered a good hard spray of water did
> the job just as well, without injury to ladybug larvae. Jerry Baker
> (thuggish anti-marijuana hippy-head-bashing police officer cum "America's
> Master Gardener") suggests using baby shampoo instead of dishwashing OR
> horticultural soap, because baby shampoo has a very small amount of
> fungicide in it as well. That was news to me, but interesting, & possibly
> useful to know.
>
> -paghat the ratgirl

PS. The fungicide (or, rather, broadspectrum antimicrobial) that is in
Johnson's & Johnson's & most other major brands of Baby Shampoo is
Quaternium. There is not a lot of it, & it is supposed to protect against
numerous pathogenic microorganisms -- viruses, bacteria, & fungus -- &
hand-cleaning formulas with greater amounts of Quaternium are used in
hygienic farm practices when moving between animals, so as not to carry
illnesses from animal to animal (or from animal to human). It is also
found in many ordinary handcreams and ointments. Some petshops & animal
shelters make people clean their hands between animals with a self-drying
soapy squirt-bottle substance, the active component of which is
Quaternium. The hand-wiping concoction allegedly kills over 99% of skin
surface microbes, especially fungus and bacteria, but also protozoans &
small parasites & viruses if they have not penetrated the skin surface.
Its milder dose added to baby shampoo is supposedly responsible for
certain infant scalp disorders & fungal diseases which are common in the
rest of the world pretty much vanishing among North American children.
That's the very good part of this chemical. But there is also a bad part:

The manufacturers of Quaternium insist it is non-toxic to the nth degree,
but in fact it is a carcinogen & Johnson's & Johnsons has been somewhat
under siege about this for some while (their baby shampoo contains at
least two known carcinogens; it doesn't worry me a lot for skin-contact,
so I happen often to use J&J for my hair as it's a comparatively cheap
product compared to fancy-ass shampoos & I just kinda like it). In
products wherein it is more potent, it still seems to me the worst
potential of Quaternium is still less harmful than alternatives, plus it
has a healing & moisturing properties.

When I posted the above I wasn't actually recommending it, but had
intended after seeing what others thought (if others thought anything
about it at all) to note that it is also a carinogen (as Jerry Baker did
not note). Baker seems a bit a twink to me, more salesman than gardener,
but I haven't seen him enough to know if he always comes off like that. He
does recommend what he perceives as organic alternatives for things, &
that's to the good, it's just that anyone among us who prefers to adhere
to organic principles must always be on guard that the organic thing is
also toxic or unnecessary or at at least questionable.

For garden use I don't find it any more questionable than horticultural
soap or my past use of dishwashing soap. I stopped using even that as it
just seemed unncessary & harsh. Some recommendations when using the
soap-your-garden alternative (for aphid & other insect control) is to use
either baby shampoo or Ivory because these are non-detergents, & detergent
soaps can & do burn leaves. Commercially made horticultural soaps have
harsher content, with salts, copper or pyrethenes, & fatty acids that are
actually toxic to ants, caterpillars, spider mites, & beetle larvae;
whereas homemade with Ivory or baby shampoo it would be less toxic than
commercial insecticidal soaps for gardens, but would mainly only kill soft
insects like aphids & spitbug larvae), & some insecticidal soaps with
fatty acides can have a most unwanted herbicidal side-effect because the
fat holds fast to the plant so that any mild herbicidal effect of sundry
salts remain especially on broadleaves long enough to cause burn or leaf
death. So while the baby shampoo would kill fewer insects (& is generally
only suggested for aphids) at it's worst it is going to be safer than
detergents or insecticidal soap products for the plants.

ANY use of soaps should be regarded a "less toxic" option rather than
overly lionized as an organic non-toxic option.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

[Salty Thumb]

animaux > wrote in
:

> The important part of horticultural soap is the level of fatty acid
> it has as its active ingredient.
>
> This is what's in baby shampoo by the brand name:
>
> Johnson's Baby Shampoo - moisturizing formula with honey & vitamin E
> water ,PEG-80 sorbitan laurate, cocamidopropyl betaine, sodium
> trideceth sulfate, glycerin, PEG-150 disterate, disodium
> lauroamphodi-acetate, sodium laureth-13, carboxylate, fragrance,
> poly-quaternium-10, honey, tocopherol acetate, tetrasodium EDTA,
> quaterium-15,FD&C yellow #6, FD&C yellow #5, FD&C red #4, FD&C red
> #33, FD&C blue #1
>
>
> Which of the above ingredients is a fungicide? Possibly if an uppity
> health food store sells one with tea tree oil in it, possibly he is
> referring to that. Maybe one of the listed above is from tea tree oil
> or neem tree oil.

Honey supposedly has fungicidal (and bactericidal) properties. The rest
of the stuff looks like standard shampoo ingredients (aside from the
vitamin e).

-- Salty

[animaux]

On Sat, 02 Aug 2003 02:21:16 GMT, Salty Thumb >
wrote:

>>
>> Which of the above ingredients is a fungicide? Possibly if an uppity
>> health food store sells one with tea tree oil in it, possibly he is
>> referring to that. Maybe one of the listed above is from tea tree oil
>> or neem tree oil.
>
>Honey supposedly has fungicidal (and bactericidal) properties. The rest
>of the stuff looks like standard shampoo ingredients (aside from the
>vitamin e).
>
>-- Salty

I use insecticidal for houseplants only, and only when there is an infestation
of scale on some of my ferns. I don't use any pesticides, natural or synthetic
outdoors.

V

[Tom Jaszewski]

On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 12:56:07 -0700, "Valkyrie" >
wrote:

>I have always used Dr Bonners liquid peppermint soap on my plants for years.
>I used it on my babies 30 years ago too, and they never once had an aphid or
>fungus show up on them! ;-)
>
>Val
Me too! And quite effectively in commercial applications as well!

Babyshampoo

Ingredients from MSDS/Label
Chemical CAS No / Unique ID Percent
Sodium laureth sulfate 009004-82-4
Tetrasodium EDTA 000064-02-8
Fragrance/perfume(s) 000000-00-1
Polysorbate 20 009005-64-5
Cocamidopropyl betaine 061789-40-0
3-iodo-2-propynyl butyl carbamate 055406-53-6
Water 007732-18-5
Polyethylene glycol distearate 009005-08-7
Sodium lauroampho PG-acetate phosphate 999999-21-4
Oat extract 084012-26-0

[Beecrofter]

> Honey supposedly has fungicidal (and bactericidal) properties. The rest
> of the stuff looks like standard shampoo ingredients (aside from the
> vitamin e).
>
> -- Salty

Honey is acid, it is oxegenated by the enzyme which splits the sugars
making a little hydrogen peroxide , and it is osmotically unfriendly
to bacterial growth because it is so dry.
If you spill it on the ground the plants die too.