Was it worth it?

[BCL]

I have just spent about $1700 on a couple of water tanks plus the
necessary fittings just to store less than $5 worth of water (5000
litres).

Admittedly I will get $400 back from the water board but wonder on
reflection whether it was worth the money and effort just to be able
to water the garden and wash the car!

I suppose if the drought doesn't break in about a year's time I won't
be washing in bottled water but still...


Regards
Bruce

[HC]

Does make you wonder?

When I bought my current house (in town) a little over 12 years ago I
approached the council about putting in a rainwater tank and was told I
could lodge the necessary BA but it would be rejected because it wasn't
necessary and their policy was to reject such applications.

I had been living on acres for many, many years and used to limiting
water usage at dry times, but I do like drinking unadulaterated
rainwater.....hey, a little frog's **** adds to the flavour, but they
wouldn't permit that......NOW, it's a different story and they are
giving a 'rebate' to fit a tank!!!

Some may say 'the times they are a changin' I'm the first to agree they
have to, but it does seem a complete turnaround to their 'policies' 12
years ago, only because it suited the powers-that-be.

HC ;-)

BCL wrote:
> I have just spent about $1700 on a couple of water tanks plus the
> necessary fittings just to store less than $5 worth of water (5000
> litres).
>
> Admittedly I will get $400 back from the water board but wonder on
> reflection whether it was worth the money and effort just to be able
> to water the garden and wash the car!
>
> I suppose if the drought doesn't break in about a year's time I won't
> be washing in bottled water but still...
>
>
> Regards
> Bruce

[len gardener]

g'day bruce,

dunno 3 years ago we bought a 4,500 litre tank for around $700, and
the last 24,400 litre tanks we bought cost $1800 each, but as an
observation from one that relies on tank water 5,000 litres won't last
long with continual use if there is no rain to top it up my advice to
gardeners is got for around 9,000 to 15,000 litres at least.

of course available space comes into play as always.

len

snipped
--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/

my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send.

[Amy Lou]

"BCL" > wrote in message
...
>I have just spent about $1700 on a couple of water tanks plus the
> necessary fittings just to store less than $5 worth of water (5000
> litres).

Geeze, I pay ten times that for my water! The water itself is actually free
but I have to pay to have it delivered by truck.

I don't understand why water, which is becoming more and more precious these
days, is still so cheap.

Amy

[SG1]

"BCL" > wrote in message
...
>I have just spent about $1700 on a couple of water tanks plus the
> necessary fittings just to store less than $5 worth of water (5000
> litres).
>
> Admittedly I will get $400 back from the water board but wonder on
> reflection whether it was worth the money and effort just to be able
> to water the garden and wash the car!
>
> I suppose if the drought doesn't break in about a year's time I won't
> be washing in bottled water but still...
>
>
> Regards
> Bruce

Yes, now you can thumb your nose at the bureaucrats who want to stop car
washing & gardening. Selfish *******s don't want anyone to enjoy life just
coz they don't have one.
Jim
In sunny SW Qld.
Will storm today. I washed the rain gauge.

[Terry Collins]

BCL wrote:

> Admittedly I will get $400 back from the water board

Where are you?

I understood that in sydney, you actually had to connect it to your
toilet to get the cash back.

Not much good to us as we already have two rainwater tanks, which lets
us water what we want whenever.

[Kirsty]

We have installed 4 tanks for the garden and a tank for excess water, to
flush the toilet. At present the cost of installing these tanks isn't
'worth' the money, as water in Australia is so cheap.

However, water restrictions will probably increase, rather than decrease
,in the future. Global warming is here to stay, and Australia will get
dryer as a continent as a result.

We water our whole yard on the tank water during summer, and throughout
the rest of the seasons we flush the water down the toilet.

Between 2 people we use less than 200 litres of 'town water' per day.
This is the amount that would be allowed on a level 5 water restriction.

Do you think Sydney is going to have even more severe water shortages
than it has now ? From recent 'studies' it indicates that this will be
the case.

Unfortunately our politicians and the bureaucrats that run our country
only need to worry about a 4 year term. They don't have very many, if
any sustainable long term plans in regards to water planning, including
grey water systems.

So your tanks in 5 years time may seem more 'worth it' than they do now.
Monetarily you may not recoup your loses for some time, but you will
find that continues water restrictions hamper they 'water way of life'
we have become accustomed to.

www.auckett.net/permaculture


SG1 wrote:
> "BCL" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I have just spent about $1700 on a couple of water tanks plus the
>>necessary fittings just to store less than $5 worth of water (5000
>>litres).
>>
>>Admittedly I will get $400 back from the water board but wonder on
>>reflection whether it was worth the money and effort just to be able
>>to water the garden and wash the car!
>>
>>I suppose if the drought doesn't break in about a year's time I won't
>>be washing in bottled water but still...
>>
>>
>>Regards
>>Bruce
>
>
> Yes, now you can thumb your nose at the bureaucrats who want to stop car
> washing & gardening. Selfish *******s don't want anyone to enjoy life just
> coz they don't have one.
> Jim
> In sunny SW Qld.
> Will storm today. I washed the rain gauge.
>
>

[Charles]

>> Admittedly I will get $400 back from the water board but wonder on
>> reflection whether it was worth the money and effort just to be able
>> to water the garden and wash the car!

Why do people need to be recompensed to encourage them to do something that
will ceate a greater good (i.e saving of water)?

And not being able to wash a car? Gee....life must be tough if this is
anyone's main problem.

Charles -- yes I am an idealist.
--
If some days are diamonds & some days are stone --
Then some days I live in a quarry!!

[len gardener]

with you charles,

whilst ever folk hold out for some cash reward things will never
change. we live in rural qld no mention of reimbursing rural folk, bit
one sided hey? but then if we don't do it then we don't got no water
hey? that simple.

with all these city folks panicking because they can't water the lawn
or wash the rust bucket, how many times do they flush waste water
(urine) down the toilet with perfectly good drinking water??

how many have given up showers so they can share the same bath water?
how many use their grey water for lawns (wastefull folley) and/or
gardens? how many use good looking bath water to wash a few clothes?

might be get real time or at least bite the bullet time?

len

snipped
--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/

my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send.

[Rod Out back]

"len gardener" > wrote in message
...
> with you charles,
>
> whilst ever folk hold out for some cash reward things will never
> change. we live in rural qld no mention of reimbursing rural folk, bit
> one sided hey? but then if we don't do it then we don't got no water
> hey? that simple.
>
> with all these city folks panicking because they can't water the lawn
> or wash the rust bucket, how many times do they flush waste water
> (urine) down the toilet with perfectly good drinking water??
>
> how many have given up showers so they can share the same bath water?
> how many use their grey water for lawns (wastefull folley) and/or
> gardens? how many use good looking bath water to wash a few clothes?
>
> might be get real time or at least bite the bullet time?
>
> len
>
> snipped
> --
> happy gardening
> 'it works for me it could work for you,'


Every time a storm goes over here, I think about how I'd love to have
another 6 or so 5000 gallon poly rainwater tanks...sigh. And no-one looks at
subsidising any of it for me!

Whenever I travel to the smoke, I am buying bottled water like there's no
tomorrow because the tap water tastes like crap. If I lived in suburbia,
and the council was going to give me a rebate, I'd jump at the chance to
have decent drinking water! A 2-stage decent water filter on the outlet, a
bit of regular maintenance in keeping your roof clean, a first-flush bypass
to reduce contaminents, and you have damn fine water!

Just my thoughts, but there are a lot of other things I would forego to have
rainwater on tap...

Cheers,

Rod.......Out Back

[Andrew Puddifer]

The funny thing is, you get a much higher rebate percentage wise for
installing a solar water heater than you do water tanks.
Having lived in the inner city, I know that you can force the price of
water up all you like, but if you don't have the space, you can't store
water.
I think the current rebates for water tanks are pathetic, and there
should not be a blanket price for the rebate, perhaps the rebate could
cover actual costs of plumbing the tank into the house water system.
That is by far the most expensive part, especially if you have to use
pumps and valves. The plumbing I can do, but the electician is expensive
for the pumps.
The actual tank instal couldn't be easier, prepare the ground and
plonk it down.
I am actually looking at tanks at the moment, and it isn't cheap! I'd
love to store a lot of water here, and space for the tanks is O.K for a
surburban block, but the fact that I must have the tanks plumbed into my
house plumbing to get the rebate is making it difficult to justify...I
just want the rain water for the garden and to wash the cars, why
shouldn't I get a rebate for that use? It's still saving water after
all.....

Regards, Andrew.


Kirsty wrote:
> We have installed 4 tanks for the garden and a tank for excess water, to
> flush the toilet. At present the cost of installing these tanks isn't
> 'worth' the money, as water in Australia is so cheap.
>
> However, water restrictions will probably increase, rather than decrease
> ,in the future. Global warming is here to stay, and Australia will get
> dryer as a continent as a result.
>
> We water our whole yard on the tank water during summer, and throughout
> the rest of the seasons we flush the water down the toilet.
>
> Between 2 people we use less than 200 litres of 'town water' per day.
> This is the amount that would be allowed on a level 5 water restriction.
>
> Do you think Sydney is going to have even more severe water shortages
> than it has now ? From recent 'studies' it indicates that this will be
> the case.
>
> Unfortunately our politicians and the bureaucrats that run our country
> only need to worry about a 4 year term. They don't have very many, if
> any sustainable long term plans in regards to water planning, including
> grey water systems.
>
> So your tanks in 5 years time may seem more 'worth it' than they do now.
> Monetarily you may not recoup your loses for some time, but you will
> find that continues water restrictions hamper they 'water way of life'
> we have become accustomed to.
>
> www.auckett.net/permaculture
>
>
> SG1 wrote:
>
>> "BCL" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>> I have just spent about $1700 on a couple of water tanks plus the
>>> necessary fittings just to store less than $5 worth of water (5000
>>> litres).
>>>
>>> Admittedly I will get $400 back from the water board but wonder on
>>> reflection whether it was worth the money and effort just to be able
>>> to water the garden and wash the car!
>>>
>>> I suppose if the drought doesn't break in about a year's time I won't
>>> be washing in bottled water but still...
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Bruce
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, now you can thumb your nose at the bureaucrats who want to stop
>> car washing & gardening. Selfish *******s don't want anyone to enjoy
>> life just coz they don't have one.
>> Jim
>> In sunny SW Qld.
>> Will storm today. I washed the rain gauge.
>>
>

[Andrew Puddifer]

Well, Mr Idealist, perhaps you could give me some of your ideal money
for my tanks then.
Perhaps it's better not to assume you know of one's situation before
you comment.
Some people have to save money to purchase several thousand dollars
worth of tanks, and it's not a trivial amount.
Why shouldn't people receive rebates? I bet you take any rebate you
can get....

Regards, Andrew.

Charles wrote:

>>>Admittedly I will get $400 back from the water board but wonder on
>>>reflection whether it was worth the money and effort just to be able
>>>to water the garden and wash the car!
>
>
> Why do people need to be recompensed to encourage them to do something that
> will ceate a greater good (i.e saving of water)?
>
> And not being able to wash a car? Gee....life must be tough if this is
> anyone's main problem.
>
> Charles -- yes I am an idealist.

[Andrew Puddifer]

With all due respect,

I agree that SOME city people use ridiculous amounts of water, I have
seen it. But by far the biggest wasters of water in large cities are
businesses.
But you have to consider that installing a tank in a surburban area is
not as easy as backing up that 32ft tray truck the tanks come in on,
hoisting it up with the Hiab crane and plonking it down into position. I
know that's how it's done in the country, but what do you do if you have
no access to the place you want the tank to go? Who pays for the crane
hire? It increases the costs of a tank install a LOT, and that's
probably why larger towns get the rebate, to offset costs a bit. You do
know a small crane costs at least $500 an hour?
Most rural properties also have simple gravity fed tank systems, urban
installations are far more complex. Often the tank wil be downhill from
the house, requiring pumps.
So what if someone wants to wash their car with the rainwater they
save? Isn't it far better than using town water?
Did you know that in large cities you have to wash your car? The
pollution pretty quickly destroys them if you don't, and a lot of us
can't afford to swap cars every 3 years......most people I know don't
water their lawns either......
It's not a cash reward, it's a rebate. For some, that money may be the
difference between installing a tank and not. Have you considered that
some people don't have a spare $1500 for even a modest tank???
It's easy to be idealistic if you don't have to live the situation.....

Regards, Andrew.



len gardener wrote:

> with you charles,
>
> whilst ever folk hold out for some cash reward things will never
> change. we live in rural qld no mention of reimbursing rural folk, bit
> one sided hey? but then if we don't do it then we don't got no water
> hey? that simple.
>
> with all these city folks panicking because they can't water the lawn
> or wash the rust bucket, how many times do they flush waste water
> (urine) down the toilet with perfectly good drinking water??
>
> how many have given up showers so they can share the same bath water?
> how many use their grey water for lawns (wastefull folley) and/or
> gardens? how many use good looking bath water to wash a few clothes?
>
> might be get real time or at least bite the bullet time?
>
> len
>
> snipped

[SG1]

Washing the rain gauge worked 26.2mm in overnight storms. First decent fall
for a while.
Jim

[Rod Out back]

"Andrew Puddifer" > wrote in message
...
> With all due respect,
>
> I agree that SOME city people use ridiculous amounts of water, I have
> seen it. But by far the biggest wasters of water in large cities are
> businesses.
> But you have to consider that installing a tank in a surburban area is
> not as easy as backing up that 32ft tray truck the tanks come in on,
> hoisting it up with the Hiab crane and plonking it down into position. I
> know that's how it's done in the country, but what do you do if you have
> no access to the place you want the tank to go? Who pays for the crane
> hire? It increases the costs of a tank install a LOT, and that's
> probably why larger towns get the rebate, to offset costs a bit. You do
> know a small crane costs at least $500 an hour?
> Most rural properties also have simple gravity fed tank systems, urban
> installations are far more complex. Often the tank wil be downhill from
> the house, requiring pumps.
> So what if someone wants to wash their car with the rainwater they
> save? Isn't it far better than using town water?
> Did you know that in large cities you have to wash your car? The
> pollution pretty quickly destroys them if you don't, and a lot of us
> can't afford to swap cars every 3 years......most people I know don't
> water their lawns either......
> It's not a cash reward, it's a rebate. For some, that money may be the
> difference between installing a tank and not. Have you considered that
> some people don't have a spare $1500 for even a modest tank???
> It's easy to be idealistic if you don't have to live the situation.....
>
> Regards, Andrew.
>


Andrew,

As a matter of fact, it IS just as easy as backing up a truck!

3 or 4 people can roll a 3000 gallon poly tank off a truck, and move it into
position easily(would you like names??). Most of these tanks have the option
to be supplied with first flush diverter and pressure pump. Not hard to do.

The bloke who has delivered our poly tanks(Mostly 3,000 & 5,000 gallon) for
5 years now doesnt own a Hi-ab on his truck and he would have delivered a
few hundred in this district alone in this time. He just rolls them off the
truck.

Most people in places like Brisbane that I have seen buying a tank are
getting something in the 750-1000 gallon size (~3200 - 4000L) of poly tank,
and these are easy to move around with a few people. Hooking them up is
about a half-hour once you have the bits & pieces.

Adding a rainwater tank is not a hard thing. Pressure pumps do away with the
need for tank stands, and poly tanks are more robustly handled than a
corrugated iron tank. I hardly think many people are looking to buy
something large enough to need a hi-ab.

Cheers,

Rod.......Out Back (Who actually does use his Hi-ab to move his stock water
tanks & troughs...)

[len gardener]

there was a lot of other points imentioned in my post andrew,

when i lived in the city i installed a 1,000 gallon tank rolled it off
the truck slid it under the high set house, installed on demand elect'
pump that came with a 3 pin lead attached too easy! ran some pipe to
the kitchen and a tap hey presto, no worries oh and no rebates then
either. at that time the tank, bypass filter system and pump came as a
special deal so shop around hey, you may be surprised how far a tank
manufacturer will go to sell a tank.

in rural we had to pay for 3 x 5,000 gallon tanks at a cost of around
$1800 each buy elect' on demand pump and plumb it into the house we
pay for more power because each time we need water the pump comes on
and guess what no rebates not even on the power. would like a couple
more but then money don't come cheap.

from what i see buy and large city folk can be very wastefull how many
do you know that use some of the oprions i mentioned in my earlier
post? my guess not many at all.

len

snipped
--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/

my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send.

[Charles]

Andrew Puddifer > wrote:
> Well, Mr Idealist, perhaps you could give me some of your ideal
> money
> for my tanks then.

Why? Why should anyone need to get rebates for doing something that's
environmentally sensible? And since I am a low-paid retail drone I don't
really have enough money to buy a tank for myself, let alone give some to
someone else.

> Perhaps it's better not to assume you know of one's situation
> before
> you comment.

Where on earth did I make an assumption about *anyone's* situation? Perhaps
it's better to try some English comprehension lessons before criticising
another's post?

> Some people have to save money to purchase several thousand dollars
> worth of tanks, and it's not a trivial amount.

No indeed, as I said above I can't afford to get one myself. There's no
rebate where I live so that doesn't come into it. But the lack of a rebate
won't stop me buying a tank (I don't need anyone to give me a handout to
encourage me)...I'll buy one when I can afford it regardless.

> Why shouldn't people receive rebates? I bet you take any rebate you
> can get....

Of course I would...if I am entitled why shouldn't I take it? (although as
I said...my council is so backwards -- or poor -- that it doesn't offer
rebates for tanks)

Oh...and where did I say people shouldn't get rebates? I was commenting on
some people bitching about not getting a big enough rebate and implying (to
my mind at least) that if there was no rebate they'd not be bothering to
conserve this wet watery stuff...something that I regard as a poor
reflection on them (and maybe society as a whole)

And others were whinging about not being allowed to wash their cars for
goodness sake! As though that's an essential of life.

I just don't think any sensible person should *need* a rebate to do
something environmentally responible. (Or to see that it's far better to
have a dirty car than to waste water when it's scarce)

Charles
--
If some days are diamonds & some days are stone --
Then some days I live in a quarry!!

[Charles]

Andrew Puddifer > wrote:

> With all due respect,
(But precious little understanding or comprehension.)

> So what if someone wants to wash their car with the rainwater they
> save? Isn't it far better than using town water?

Of course it's better to use rainwater to wash your car...bathe in it for
all I care...geez drink it even...The poster I was commenting on was
bitching about bureaucrat not letting him/her use water to water the garden
or wash the car....that was *NOT* using rainwater but water board provided
treated costly water, as the bureaucrats can't stop you from using your
rainwater for whatever you want...well....maybe not for feeding a still to
make moonshine..but you get what I mean...no...actually *you* probably
don't...Oh god why did I start this post??

> Did you know that in large cities you have to wash your car? The
> pollution pretty quickly destroys them if you don't, and a lot of us
> can't afford to swap cars every 3 years......most people I know don't
> water their lawns either......

I don't believe this...not with modern metal finishing and paint
technology...cite please?

> It's not a cash reward, it's a rebate. For some, that money may be the
> difference between installing a tank and not. Have you considered that
> some people don't have a spare $1500 for even a modest tank???

A modest poly tank costs far less than that even out here in western Qld.

Charles
--
If some days are diamonds & some days are stone --
Then some days I live in a quarry!!

[Charles]

"SG1" > wrote:

> Washing the rain gauge worked 26.2mm in overnight storms. First decent
> fall for a while.
> Jim

Congrats Jim...we had some storm and rain today too..hopefully the farmers
around the area got more.

Charles
--
If some days are diamonds & some days are stone --
Then some days I live in a quarry!!

[SG1]

Followed up with another 58.8mm yesterday arvo & overnight. The swamp (yard)
now needs a day or two to dry out. At least the harvest is over now only
minor wet days during it. Maybe the local cockies can get in a summer crop
or 7.
Jim

"Charles" > wrote in message
...
> "SG1" > wrote:
>
>> Washing the rain gauge worked 26.2mm in overnight storms. First decent
>> fall for a while.
>> Jim
>
> Congrats Jim...we had some storm and rain today too..hopefully the farmers
> around the area got more.
>
> Charles
> --
> If some days are diamonds & some days are stone --
> Then some days I live in a quarry!!

[John Savage]

Kirsty > writes:
>We have installed 4 tanks for the garden and a tank for excess water, to
>flush the toilet. At present the cost of installing these tanks isn't
>'worth' the money, as water in Australia is so cheap.

The available water might prove its worth if you are in bushfire area.

>Do you think Sydney is going to have even more severe water shortages
>than it has now ? From recent 'studies' it indicates that this will be
>the case.

Sydney to experience up to 100 days per year when the temp exceeds
30 degrees by mid-century, if some predictions are to be believed.
Well, that part of Sydney which is still above water after the polar
ice has melted and raised the sea levels. :-(
--
John Savage (news address invalid; keep news replies in newsgroup)

[Aprill]

Andrew Puddifer wrote:
> With all due respect,
>
> I agree that SOME city people use ridiculous amounts of water, I have
> seen it. But by far the biggest wasters of water in large cities are
> businesses.
> But you have to consider that installing a tank in a surburban area is
> not as easy as backing up that 32ft tray truck the tanks come in on,
> hoisting it up with the Hiab crane and plonking it down into position. I
> know that's how it's done in the country, but what do you do if you have
> no access to the place you want the tank to go? Who pays for the crane
> hire?


These days tanks can be brought in on a trailer. I'm building a house on
an acreage with no town water. A 96000 litre tank has just been installed.
The water container is a bladder and the colorbond ring arrives in
panels. Easy peasy, japanesey.. no cranes.. no rolling massive poly
tanks off the back of a truck.

cheerio...
aprill

[Terry Collins]

Andrew Puddifer wrote:

> but the fact that I must have the tanks plumbed into my
> house plumbing to get the rebate is making it difficult to justify...

If "they" were serious about saving water, they would be reducing demand
by encouraging composting and non-flush toilets, thus saving an average
of 40% on water usage for each household.


We are looking at "recycling" grey water before additional water tanks,
although the recycling will require another water tank (at least). The
"cost" of plumbing and the running cost in electricity is another major
discouragement. I doubt if my local council would be happy with the
installation of a windmill for water pumping on my suburban lot.

[Terry Collins]

Aprill wrote:

> The water container is a bladder and the colorbond ring arrives in
> panels. Easy peasy, japanesey.. no cranes.. no rolling massive poly
> tanks off the back of a truck.

Brand?


On the other point, my width and height limitation is what will fit
under my neighbour's rolladoor. We then fling it over the back fence.

[Amy Lou]

"BCL" > wrote in message
...
>I have just spent about $1700 on a couple of water tanks plus the
> necessary fittings just to store less than $5 worth of water (5000
> litres).
>
> Admittedly I will get $400 back from the water board but wonder on
> reflection whether it was worth the money and effort just to be able
> to water the garden and wash the car!

If you are relying on rain to fill the tank what happens when there is no
rain? No washing the car and the garden goes brown? Perhaps it wasn't worth
it, because it doesn't take long to use up a tank load of water.

Amy

[len gardener]

g'day amy,

we have yup no rain and an empty tank says it all you can buy water
though.

we have 3 X 5,400 gallon tanks, when they are full they last a long
time, we also monitor water use and check tank levels to see when some
belt tightening is needed. we don't wash rust buckets we wait until it
rains for that event, as some city folk do and we don't water lawns as
some other city folk do. we share a bath (no showers they are
wastefull and also very hard to monitor water usage, plus unless you
have the shower over a tub you can't save the water for other uses).

we use a waterless composting toilet (now don't lots of city folk turn
their noses up at that idea oh don't worry so do those who move to
rural and won't give up the bad habits). our grey water goes to the
food trees. we use a twin tub washer and one load of water generally
does all the washing as does 1 load of rinse water we wash the
cleanest stuff first, and on those occassion that the bath water
doesn't look that dirty we use it in the w/machine.

we water vegetable or food plants only no roses or pansies here. and
in dry spells when rain is scarce we leave grass long as cutting it
dries out what moisture you may have.

and then it's just mulch, mulch, mulch and more mulch, end result we
don't water our citrus or stone fruit trees.

generally you will find anyone in the city who buys a tank will only
buy something of 1,000 gallons or less in lots of cases available
space limits the choice, but there are still lots of folk who could
put in biger tanks ie.,. 3,000+ gallon sizes.

we save all our night water so nu flushing that with good drinking
water here it goes to select vegetables after adding some water to
make it go further. now imagine if more city folk bit those bullets
maybe just maybe there wouldn't be a water shortage.

i could go on but better put the soap box away for now.

len

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 04:11:46 GMT, "Amy Lou" >
wrote:

>
>"BCL" > wrote in message
...
>>I have just spent about $1700 on a couple of water tanks plus the
>> necessary fittings just to store less than $5 worth of water (5000
>> litres).
>>
>> Admittedly I will get $400 back from the water board but wonder on
>> reflection whether it was worth the money and effort just to be able
>> to water the garden and wash the car!
>
>If you are relying on rain to fill the tank what happens when there is no
>rain? No washing the car and the garden goes brown? Perhaps it wasn't worth
>it, because it doesn't take long to use up a tank load of water.
>
>Amy
>

--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/

my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send.

[BCL]

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 04:11:46 GMT, "Amy Lou" >
wrote:

>
>"BCL" > wrote in message
...
>>I have just spent about $1700 on a couple of water tanks plus the
>> necessary fittings just to store less than $5 worth of water (5000
>> litres).
>>
>> Admittedly I will get $400 back from the water board but wonder on
>> reflection whether it was worth the money and effort just to be able
>> to water the garden and wash the car!
>
>If you are relying on rain to fill the tank what happens when there is no
>rain? No washing the car and the garden goes brown? Perhaps it wasn't worth
>it, because it doesn't take long to use up a tank load of water.

No I am not worried about filling them I am more annoyed about the
water that will be running out the overflow. The problem is finding
space for them, I opted for a couple of 2500 litre tanks purely
because finding a space to put them without obstructing or reducing
the convenience and use of the block was hard to do. I should say I
live on a large flat block with an old weatherboard cottage on it so
compared to the McMansions on a postage stamp block that most people
seem to buy today I am probably spoilt for choice. but even so it was
hard finding a place near the best water source that didn't require
council approval etc etc (they don't provided certain rules are
foillowed.)

Actually I don't wash my car (maybe once or twice a year) because I
use my bike or walk most places and I rarely water the garden but I
think you will be amazed how much water actually falls in a rainstorm,
I square metre covered in 1mm of water is a litre. I live in the
Illawarra and the average annual rainfall is about 1340 mm . So even a
6 by 6 metre garage would collect 48000 litres per annum (I hope my
maths is right) The lowest average monthly rainfall of 60mm in July
from the same garage would yield 2100 litres (and the highest monthly
rainfall is over twice that) and I am actually collecting from about 3
times that area. even if the 60mm a month was to become the norm I
think the tanks would be kept reasonably full.

About 10 minutes after I finished plumbing (I use the word loosely)
the tank on the side of my house a thunderstorm erupted and the
heavens opened. My youngest son was fascinated by the water escaping
from the 1mm hole at the base of the first flush device and he
collected five bucket fulls from that source alone. One relatively
short rainstorm nearly half filled one 2500 litre tank merely a couple
of days after it was plonked in place.

Somebody asked about the rebate you get, it is $150 for up to 4000
litre $400 for 4000 to 7000 litre and $500 for over 7000. plus you
also can get an additional $150 if you plumb it into the toilet and/or
washing machine. To be honest in an old house like mine the latter
isn't worth the effort you would be better off using buckets. retro
fitting is expensive. This is from Sydney Water which covers my bit of
the Illawarra too.


Regards
Bruce

[BCL]

On 21 Nov 2004 10:31:45 GMT, Charles > wrote:

>Oh...and where did I say people shouldn't get rebates? I was commenting on
>some people bitching about not getting a big enough rebate and implying (to
>my mind at least) that if there was no rebate they'd not be bothering to
>conserve this wet watery stuff...something that I regard as a poor
>reflection on them (and maybe society as a whole)


If anyone has limited comprehension it appears to be you, Just where
was anyone bitching? The original message merely an ironic comment on
the amount paid out to store less than $5 worth of water. As it was
obvious from the message the system had been installed then it would
be a reasonable assumption that one wouldn't have done it if one
didn't think it was worth it. The rebate was neither here nor there.

The only bitching is by you whinging about someone doing something
that you think is a good thing but that you haven't done yourself. For
goodness sake wake up to yourself stop behaving like a whining loser.


Regards
Bruce

[Amy Lou]

"BCL" wrote
>
> About 10 minutes after I finished plumbing (I use the word loosely)
> the tank on the side of my house a thunderstorm erupted and the
> heavens opened. My youngest son was fascinated by the water escaping
> from the 1mm hole at the base of the first flush device and he
> collected five bucket fulls from that source alone. One relatively
> short rainstorm nearly half filled one 2500 litre tank merely a couple
> of days after it was plonked in place.

We have a downpour like that once in a blue moon. I used to live near Sydney
so I remember what real rain was like. Wonderful stuff. Big drops. Thunder
and lightning. Down here where I live in Tassie the rain might last for days
and still it won't make much difference to the level in the water tank. Its
piddly stuff! Hobart has the second lowest annual average rainfal of any
capital city in Australia. Still, we manage. :)

Amy

[Aprill]

Terry Collins wrote:
> Aprill wrote:
>
>
>>The water container is a bladder and the colorbond ring arrives in
>>panels. Easy peasy, japanesey.. no cranes.. no rolling massive poly
>>tanks off the back of a truck.
>
>
> Brand?
>

Pioneer ..

http://www.pioneertanks.com.au/html/aboutus.html

[Terry Collins]

Aprill wrote:

> Pioneer ..
>
> http://www.pioneertanks.com.au/html/aboutus.html

thanks.

Sigh, to have the land for an aquaculture tank {:-).

[Chookie]

In article >,
BCL > wrote:

> I have just spent about $1700 on a couple of water tanks plus the
> necessary fittings just to store less than $5 worth of water (5000
> litres).

It's really that our water isn't priced properly. My own preferred system
(I"m also with Sydney Water) would be that we pay a flat rate for a particular
amount of water that will get us all by, then whopping charges for over-use.
Ditto for businesses,which is, I suspect, where a lot of wastage goes on.
Near us, we have a business that runs a fountain constantly. I think that's
ridiculous.

My mother in law says that councils used to charge extra rates if you had a
second toilet, and that might be another way to go. We have these amazing
houses in Sydney with 4 bedrooms and 6 toilets. Why don't these people go to
the Dr instead of putting in so many dunnies? Obviously they have Problems!

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Life is like a cigarette -- smoke it to the butt." -- Harvie Krumpet

[ellipsis]

In article >,
Chookie > wrote:

> Near us, we have a business that runs a fountain constantly. I think that's
> ridiculous.

I don¹t disagree with your argument, but are you sure they are not
recirculating the same water? I have a fountain of sorts in my
backyard, but it is just the same water going around and around. I do
have to top it up every five or six weeks, but there are quite a few
birds that come in to drink and bathe each day and I think they are
more responsible for the drop in water level than evaporation.

Pax

---
A: Because it reverses the natural flow of conversation.
Q: Why is top-posting considered inappropriate?

[John Savage]

len gardener > writes:
>we use a waterless composting toilet

Is that is an indoor loo, Len? Care to write a paragraph or two
about it?
--
John Savage (news address invalid; keep news replies in newsgroup)

[John Savage]

Aprill > writes:
>These days tanks can be brought in on a trailer. I'm building a house on
>an acreage with no town water. A 96000 litre tank has just been installed.
>The water container is a bladder and the colorbond ring arrives in
>panels. Easy peasy, japanesey.. no cranes.. no rolling massive poly
>tanks off the back of a truck.

Neat.

I think it was the ABC that had a piece on innovative poly tanks. As well
as the conventional round ones, there are some that are like air bags.
You just lie them on sand anywhere they'll fit under your house and then
they fill up with water a bit like a cushion. There are some like a corner
piece of Leggo, like two tall thin rectangular blocks joined together at
right angles to form a free-standing block (yes, free standing) that you
can position in a corner of your yard or somewhere that you want to make
a sheltered nook to place a seat, etc. It acts like a wall as well as
functioning as a water reservoir. I expect you could trail climbers over
it.


.--------------------.
| |
'---------------. |
plan view | |
| |
| |
| |
| |
'----'


None of these is going to droughtproof a town house, but these are a
step in the right direction. Saving water in times of drought is only
half the reason for encouraging rainwater tanks in city areas; saving
street flooding during everyday thunderstorms is the other half. The
thinking is that if every residence could store some of its initial roof
runoff, this will give the asphalt runoff some time to get away before
it is joined by roof runoff, producing less severe street flooding. It
won't help during a prolonged torrential downpour, but then nothing will.
--
John Savage (news address invalid; keep news replies in newsgroup)

[John Savage]

In an earlier article I wrote:
>Kirsty > writes:
>>We have installed 4 tanks for the garden and a tank for excess water, to
>>flush the toilet. At present the cost of installing these tanks isn't
>>'worth' the money, as water in Australia is so cheap.
>
>The available water might prove its worth if you are in bushfire area.

Making a good reason for having a gravity-fed tap in the tank in addition
to the popular electric pressure pump. In the event of a bushfire, loss
of electricity could make the water inaccessible unless you have a tap
already fitted to the tank.
--
John Savage (news address invalid; keep news replies in newsgroup)

[Aprill]

John Savage wrote:
> len gardener > writes:
>
>>we use a waterless composting toilet
>

I was really interested in doing this when I first bought my land. But
in the end we went with a project home builder and it wasnt an option.
WE've done the bio-septic thing.

...aprill

[len gardener]

g'day john,

our house is on a slab so the loo is in its own raise room so to
speak, you need a minmum of app 1 meter clearance between top of bins
and the bottom of the joist i think it is. there are other systems
that could be considered for inclusion into an already set up house,
don't know how well they work though. a good read is "the humanure
handbook" by j.c jenkins. they can be incorporated into a high set
house no worries, we run ours as a dry loo.

would love to write a bit about it there is lots to cover, so if you
could give me some clues as to what you would like to read or have for
discussion i'll work something up so to speak. and should we maybe
start a new header for the topic?

i wrote an email to someone that i ahve saved maybe i could post that
for starters it covers a lot of stuff i am now familiar with.

i will say THEY DO NOT SMELL ok that is the one thing i continually
get and i believe it is because of those raodside or forestry toilets
run by one of the authorities, my answer there is they can make a
flushing mens toilet stink so imagine what they do with a composting
loo??

anyhow let me know what you want

len

snipped
--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/

my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send.

[len gardener]

convert aprill convert you won't be sorry.

len smilling broadly

snipped
--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/

my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send.

[Terry Collins]

John Savage wrote:

> Making a good reason for having a gravity-fed tap in the tank in addition
> to the popular electric pressure pump. In the event of a bushfire, loss
> of electricity could make the water inaccessible unless you have a tap
> already fitted to the tank.

What would you do with it?
I don't fancy playing bucket tag with an approaching fire.


An electric pump is no good because more than likely you will loose
electricity in a bushfire (you also loose street water pressure as
well). My understanding is that a diesel would be better, based on the
volatility of the fuel (but if that becomes moot, then you would not
want to be around anyway).

The $64,000 question to me is "how much water do you need to make have
any effect?"

I have 2,000 + 800 litre tanks, which according to one pump (yamaha
YP205HP) would suck this all up in 5minutes at 420 litres/min. Maybe
longer becasue any that falls on the roof would be recycled anyway.

Given that all I would want to do (suburban street) is to wet down my
roof and gutters to prevent leaf, etc material in/on them from catching
a light and being blown into my roof cavity (colorbond roofing is NOT
air tight), this might be okay.

Just curious if anyone can provide some hard figure?
How long would you start the roof pumps before the fire is
expected?/visible?
How long/how much water does it take to soak surrounding vegetation?
etc.

[Rod Out back]

"Terry Collins" > wrote in message
...
> John Savage wrote:
>
> > Making a good reason for having a gravity-fed tap in the tank in
addition
> > to the popular electric pressure pump. In the event of a bushfire, loss
> > of electricity could make the water inaccessible unless you have a tap
> > already fitted to the tank.
>
> What would you do with it?
> I don't fancy playing bucket tag with an approaching fire.
>
>
> An electric pump is no good because more than likely you will loose
> electricity in a bushfire (you also loose street water pressure as
> well). My understanding is that a diesel would be better, based on the
> volatility of the fuel (but if that becomes moot, then you would not
> want to be around anyway).
>
> The $64,000 question to me is "how much water do you need to make have
> any effect?"
>
> I have 2,000 + 800 litre tanks, which according to one pump (yamaha
> YP205HP) would suck this all up in 5minutes at 420 litres/min. Maybe
> longer becasue any that falls on the roof would be recycled anyway.
>
> Given that all I would want to do (suburban street) is to wet down my
> roof and gutters to prevent leaf, etc material in/on them from catching
> a light and being blown into my roof cavity (colorbond roofing is NOT
> air tight), this might be okay.
>
> Just curious if anyone can provide some hard figure?
> How long would you start the roof pumps before the fire is
> expected?/visible?
> How long/how much water does it take to soak surrounding vegetation?
> etc.

Terry,

Indeed, it is the $64,000 question. Firstly, I wouldnt be expecting
anything other than a firefighting pump to provide you with the required
volume\pressure combination to be any use in wetting down a house &
surrounding garden\landscaping\whatever. To that end, having your tank on a
high stand wouldnt be much use either. A 3,000 gallon tank on a 35 foot
stand delivers a ballpark of 14 foot-pound of pressure, wheras an electric
pressure pump is usually between 25 and 40psi. For the volume you will get
at that pressure, the average pressue pump you might buy for a rainwater
water tank isnt going to help much when fire is threatening.

If you have a look at a firefighter pump, they have two discharge points.
They usually have a low pressure high volume outlet(about 1.5"), usually
directly above the suction inlet, and in the same direction. Above this
outlet, you will find a much smaller tree arrangement of outlets right up on
top of the pump itself(usually 2 1" outlets plus a priming bung). These
deliver significantly higher pressure, but somewhat lower volume as well.
More than adequate for damping down the area, though.

I wouldnt have any qualms about attending a fire with a petrol firefighter;
they are operating on the back of most bush fire brigade rigs these
days(including our landcruiser), so I know from experience they are pretty
safe in that regard. My only requirement is a metal fuel tank; some of the
Brigs & Stratton motors have plastic. I can envisage a burning limb or bush
falling onto the pump, and the metal tank would give you a little more time
to put it out....
I havent seen very many diesel firefighters around to date. All of the
people in our local bush fire brigade have 5hp petrol models of assorted
brands. Most small diesel engines are quite expensive, and unless you are
really in the really bad fire areas, the (marginal) extra safety of the
diesel doesnt seem to justify the cost.

A 6hp Honda with an onga firefighting pump attached cost me $595 3 years
ago. Fire hose, ball valves, an adjustible nozzle and 1.5" suction line with
camlock connectors cost me probably another $200 all up. As far as outlets
on the tank are concerned, a, 1.5" ball valve outlet & camlock nipple in
addition to whatever outlet feeds to the house supply gives you quick access
to the water, and you can use the firefighter to fill mobile tanks if
necessarry. At the engine lower revs you need for the firefighting outlets,
you will get 5 or more hours out of a tank of fuel.

A 3000 gallon tank would take about an hour or more to empty if you were
running on the the firefighter outlet the whole time(NOT the big high
volume\low pressure outlet). In this time, you would make a LOT of the
surroundings bloody wet! If you add some of the foaming\wetting agent they
use, you will get a huge amount of things wet.

I can tell you that if I was living in a high fire risk suburban area with
lots of bushland, I would think a couple of big poly tanks, a firefighter,
and some long hose would be my idea of cheap insurance!
If you have a pool, the firefighter would be able to suck from that with the
addition of a foot-valve.

Cheers,

Rod.......Out Back

[Chookie]

In article >, ellipsis >
wrote:

> In article >,
> Chookie > wrote:
>
> > Near us, we have a business that runs a fountain constantly. I think
> > that's ridiculous.
>
> I don¹t disagree with your argument, but are you sure they are not
> recirculating the same water? I have a fountain of sorts in my
> backyard, but it is just the same water going around and around. I do
> have to top it up every five or six weeks, but there are quite a few
> birds that come in to drink and bathe each day and I think they are
> more responsible for the drop in water level than evaporation.

They may well be recirculating, but even so, I think it's silly to be running
the thing at midnight on a Saturday.

A few weeks ago someone hit it with some detergent. The foam was about 2m
high and had crept out onto the road!

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Life is like a cigarette -- smoke it to the butt." -- Harvie Krumpet

[ellipsis]

In article >, John
Savage > wrote:

> There are some like a corner
> piece of Leggo, like two tall thin rectangular blocks joined together at
> right angles to form a free-standing block (yes, free standing) that you
> can position in a corner of your yard or somewhere that you want to make
> a sheltered nook to place a seat, etc. It acts like a wall as well as
> functioning as a water reservoir. I expect you could trail climbers over
> it.
>
>
> .--------------------.
> | |
> '---------------. |
> plan view | |
> | |
> | |
> | |
> | |
> '----'

I think this was the one on ŒThe Inventors¹ a couple of months ago. If
so, I am pretty sure they are now available from Bunnings.

....

[Christopher Smith]

In article >, John
Savage > wrote:

> None of these is going to droughtproof a town house, but these are a
> step in the right direction. Saving water in times of drought is only
> half the reason for encouraging rainwater tanks in city areas; saving
> street flooding during everyday thunderstorms is the other half. The


Although by doing so I risk instigating the ŒSpanish Inquisiton¹
sketch, there is also a third reason--that rainwater tastes a hell of a
lot better than most scheme water.

....

---
³Everyone needs a rainwater tank! The chief reason is ...²

[John Savage]

Terry Collins > writes:
>John Savage wrote:
>
>> Making a good reason for having a gravity-fed tap in the tank in addition
>> to the popular electric pressure pump. In the event of a bushfire, loss
>> of electricity could make the water inaccessible unless you have a tap
>> already fitted to the tank.
>
>What would you do with it?
Exactly what fire authorities currently recommend. But in the worst
imaginable situation, you'd need to soak your clothing.

>I don't fancy playing bucket tag with an approaching fire.
If you were to play silly buggers you'd be asking to be roasted.

>The $64,000 question to me is "how much water do you need to make have
>any effect?"
Half a cupful should be plenty, provided you get to that glowing cinder
before it ignites any timber of your house.

>How long/how much water does it take to soak surrounding vegetation?
None, because being the sensible homeowner, you have already cleared
all flammable surrounding vegetation that could pose a danger. There
is nothing left to to be "soaked". Yes, even your precious mulch has
all been raked off and transported well away.
--
John Savage (news address invalid; keep news replies in newsgroup)

[John Savage]

Chookie > writes:
>> > Near us, we have a business that runs a fountain constantly. I think
>> > that's ridiculous.
>
>They may well be recirculating, but even so, I think it's silly to be running
>the thing at midnight on a Saturday.

Just to play devil's advocate, but perhaps they use the sound of the
running water to mask pub neighbourhood yahooing, or high-revving traffic
hooligans, or other noise, while residents are trying to sleep. Does the
business have a caretaker, or rent overnight accommodation, or something?
Operating a fountain is preferable in the long run to taking a handful of
prescription sleeping tablets.
--
John Savage (news address invalid; keep news replies in newsgroup)

[John Savage]

Christopher Smith > writes:
>Although by doing so I risk instigating the ŒSpanish Inquisiton¹
>sketch, there is also a third reason--that rainwater tastes a hell of a
>lot better than most scheme water.

I won't disagree with you as far as taste goes. But the Sydney Water
Board does not recommend that city residents drink the rainwater they
collect. It recommends the water be used for the laundry, toilet, and/or
garden. I think pollution would be the concern. Many homes would be near
busy streets, some under plane flightpaths (kero fumes, and reports of
black spots on clothing set to dry outside), some downwind of industrial
fume stacks, etc. Discarding the first few minutes of water from a dirty
roof might not be sufficient precaution.

In my opinion, one additional reason would be that the city would be less
vulnerable to threats by any group to disrupt the city water system in
some way. As it stands at present, few residents would have even a day's
reserve of drinking water on hand in their home.
--
John Savage (news address invalid; keep news replies in newsgroup)

[BCL]

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 23:50:59 GMT, John Savage
> wrote:

>I won't disagree with you as far as taste goes. But the Sydney Water
>Board does not recommend that city residents drink the rainwater they
>collect. It recommends the water be used for the laundry, toilet, and/or

Even outside the city there are dangers. A friend's water tank was
infested with thread worm, they presume from bird shit,


Regards
Bruce

[Chookie]

In article >,
John Savage > wrote:

> Christopher Smith > writes:
> >Although by doing so I risk instigating the ŒSpanish Inquisiton¹
> >sketch, there is also a third reason--that rainwater tastes a hell of a
> >lot better than most scheme water.
>
> I won't disagree with you as far as taste goes. But the Sydney Water
> Board does not recommend that city residents drink the rainwater they
> collect. It recommends the water be used for the laundry, toilet, and/or
> garden. I think pollution would be the concern.

Interestingly, Michael Mobbs (the sustainable house guy) lives in inner-city
Sydney and apparently has never had a problem with pollution in the rainwater.
They have thier water tested frequently.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Life is like a cigarette -- smoke it to the butt." -- Harvie Krumpet

[John Savage]

BCL > writes:
>Even outside the city there are dangers. A friend's water tank was
>infested with thread worm, they presume from bird shit,

Umm, lovely. :-(

I once climbed up to clean out the gutters from a house that had a
sparrow problem. Not only had the one inch of rotting straw and manure
caused the gutter to rust through, but I found it to be crawling with
maggots! (Before this, I thought their tank water tasted real good.)

Another time, on my uncle's farm the water began to smell worse and
worse. They thought that something must have fallen down the well
over at the windmill. But one day as I was riding past the tank on
the hillside I edged the horse over to its side and looked in -- there
was a dead crow floating on the surface! So I got a stick and attempted
to fish it out but it fell to pieces and sank to the bottom. After
that we only used that tank's water for bathing! Such is life on the
land....
--
John Savage (news address invalid; keep news replies in newsgroup)

[John Savage]

len gardener > writes:
>our house is on a slab so the loo is in its own raise room so to
>speak, you need a minmum of app 1 meter clearance between top of bins
>and the bottom of the joist i think it is. there are other systems

Thanks for the notes on your waterless loo, Len. I'm wondering how much
it differs from that of the conventional flushing one, as far as the
user is concerned? The more it differs, the more reluctant I think people
would be to install one.

Do you have a bucket of something alongside the loo, for each user to
dump a handful of (sawdust?) into the loo?

When Great-Aunt Bess, complete with hat pin and white gloves, forsakes
her Toorak mansion for a few days' visit to the countryside what sight
is going to assail her genteel vision (expecting a pool of comforting
blue lavender-scented water) when she cautiously lifts the lid of Len's
wierd commode thing??

Your mention of bins suggests that a couple of times each year a heavy
bin of slop has to be carefully hauled out by a couple of strong men and
stored somewhere out of the way for a number of months?

Is the compost a bit on the bugle when you spread it around the yard,
i.e., the neighbours call off their planned weekend birthday party. :-)
--
John Savage (news address invalid; keep news replies in newsgroup)

[Aprill]

John Savage wrote:
> len gardener > writes:

> Your mention of bins suggests that a couple of times each year a heavy
> bin of slop has to be carefully hauled out by a couple of strong men and
> stored somewhere out of the way for a number of months?
>
> Is the compost a bit on the bugle when you spread it around the yard,
> i.e., the neighbours call off their planned weekend birthday party. :-)

When I looked into this, I was under the impression that it created a
kind of humus. Not smelly. I'm not sure how it's achieved though, except
perhaps no water, other than urine which would get soaked up by
newspaper or some other type of papery (toilet paper, even) material.

...aprill

[len gardener]

On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 00:14:15 GMT, John Savage
> wrote:

>snipped
>
>Thanks for the notes on your waterless loo, Len. I'm wondering how much
>it differs from that of the conventional flushing one, as far as the
>user is concerned? The more it differs, the more reluctant I think people
>would be to install one.
>
my pleasure john,

well at first site the pedestal looks the same as any water hungry
loo, even the lid looks the same though ours is a timber more up class
lid than the common plastic types around. the big difference is
between the ears of those people that have had decades of social
engineering/conditioning as they changed from the thunder boxes of the
40's & 50's even into the 60's, to the magic of push button water
fall.

>Do you have a bucket of something alongside the loo, for each user to
>dump a handful of (sawdust?) into the loo?
>
we have a bucket of mushroom compost not needed at each sitting though
about once or twice a week is more than enough as we run a dry system
ie.,. we use a night wee bucket so to speak.

>When Great-Aunt Bess, complete with hat pin and white gloves, forsakes
>her Toorak mansion for a few days' visit to the countryside what sight
>is going to assail her genteel vision (expecting a pool of comforting
>blue lavender-scented water) when she cautiously lifts the lid of Len's
>wierd commode thing??
>
well unless she has owl vision or has hung one on the night before and
is prone to praying to the compost god below then she may see a
glimpse just a glimpse of white toilet paper in the dark depths below,
oh! nope not a drop blue lavender water in sight.

>Your mention of bins suggests that a couple of times each year a heavy
>bin of slop has to be carefully hauled out by a couple of strong men and
>stored somewhere out of the way for a number of months?
>
um a little on the weighty side yes mmm slop well ours is dry, and
before i put the out of use lid on the full bin a cover it with mushy
compost, but no smell unless you stir it up so to speak, we have the
basement area of our loo set up so we slide one bin aside then put the
empty in service bin in place ready to be filled, usually composting
takes around 6 to 7 months usually the same amount of time it takes to
fill a bin. doesn't ahve to be stored out of the way it's only a black
bin ressembling a 44 gallon drum and no flies hanging around it.

>Is the compost a bit on the bugle when you spread it around the yard,
>i.e., the neighbours call off their planned weekend birthday party. :-)

nope once fully composted it looks like humas and has no odour so the
neighbours can still have their backyard barbie. we usually create a
trench down the middle of a garden and spread it in there, you only a
good wheelbarrow load full. ilike to get the worms into it so try to
do that as we fill too, they do wonders.

there is an enzyme you can buy and spray in after each use, that helps
the composting but we get good sun on our drum so that keeps the heat
up.

anyhowhavagudweegend

len

--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/

my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send.

[Chookie]

In article >,
John Savage > wrote:

> I once climbed up to clean out the gutters from a house that had a
> sparrow problem. Not only had the one inch of rotting straw and manure
> caused the gutter to rust through, but I found it to be crawling with
> maggots! (Before this, I thought their tank water tasted real good.)

Ah, that flavoursome maggot wee!!

<giggling, thinking of what your expression must have been when you spotted
'em>

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Life is like a cigarette -- smoke it to the butt." -- Harvie Krumpet

[John Savage]

len gardener > writes:
>well at first site the pedestal looks the same as any water hungry
>loo, even the lid looks the same though ours is a timber more up class
>lid than the common plastic types around. the big difference is
>between the ears of those people that have had decades of social
>engineering/conditioning as they changed from the thunder boxes of the
>40's & 50's even into the 60's, to the magic of push button water
>fall.

Perhaps install a cistern with a button anyway, but have it play a tape
recording of a healthy waterfall's "Wooooshhh" to reassure any uncertain
visitors who have come under the evil social engineers' spell!!

>>Do you have a bucket of something alongside the loo, for each user to
>>dump a handful of (sawdust?) into the loo?
>
>we have a bucket of mushroom compost not needed at each sitting though
>about once or twice a week is more than enough as we run a dry system

Mushroom compost would be an almost sterile medium. Do you add it for its
absorbancy or to introduce a few microorganisms? An equal weight of garden
soil would have a lot more microbes.

>ie.,. we use a night wee bucket so to speak.

Ah! I'd not picked up on the implication when you'd earlier said you run
it as a dry system. That explains a lot ... not to mention your healthy
lemon trees! There are difficulties there for urban dwellers, though I
guess if things were planned right one could install a urinal or some
sort of water-conservative loo for that function. Otherwise, your plans
are going to be well and truly upset should you ever decide to have 20
relatives around for Christmas Day--you might need to be 'changing bins'
halfway through the afternoon.

>>When Great-Aunt Bess, complete with hat pin and white gloves, forsakes
>>her Toorak mansion for a few days' visit to the countryside what sight
>>is going to assail her genteel vision (expecting a pool of comforting
>>blue lavender-scented water) when she cautiously lifts the lid of Len's
>>wierd commode thing??
>
>well unless she has owl vision or has hung one on the night before and
>is prone to praying to the compost god below then she may see a
>glimpse just a glimpse of white toilet paper in the dark depths below,
>oh! nope not a drop blue lavender water in sight.

So, no handy S-bend to trap a mobile phone or wedding ring when someone
drops it in? Is 'rolling up your sleeve' going to allow someone desperate
enough to retrieve their dropped phone??

>nope once fully composted it looks like humas and has no odour so the
>neighbours can still have their backyard barbie. we usually create a
>trench down the middle of a garden and spread it in there, you only a
>good wheelbarrow load full. ilike to get the worms into it so try to
>do that as we fill too, they do wonders.

You drop a few worms down the loo from time to time? And they survive,
even grow and multiply? Interesting. Handy if you're a keen fisherman!!
I suppose you could even throw in a paper bag full of the day's kitchen
peelings and food scraps?

>there is an enzyme you can buy and spray in after each use, that helps
>the composting but we get good sun on our drum so that keeps the heat
>up.

Thanks for all that info, Len. I hope others have learnt from it, too.
It seems so absurd to me, when visiting rural friends, to be skimping
and saving every drop of water when bathing, doing laundry, brushing
teeth, etc., plus rationing laundry water all around the garden, only to
then have everyone throwing water by the bucketful down the loo!

Since so many homes have two loos these days, perhaps an upstairs
water-waster and a downstairs water-saver might be a reasonable
compromise. The septic could serve as a reserve (for when the nature-
loo is awaiting someone to change bins) and as a convenience for guests.
Did you see the septic system on ABC's New Inventors? It comprises 3
plastic bins filled by a thick liner. It all folds up to such a small
package that it is actually mailed out to purchasers! It's on the
market and fully does away with the big round concrete septic tank.

Again, thanks.
--
John Savage (news address invalid; keep news replies in newsgroup)

[len gardener]

snipped
>visitors who have come under the evil social engineers' spell!!
>
yes john i had thought of that just to comfort those wastefull city
folk hell bent on hearing drinking water go to waster lol.

snipped
>soil would have a lot more microbes.
>
mushroom compost is a good medium for worms we could use wood
shavings. sawdust can set hard and earth would make for more weight.
but yes earth would have lots of beneficial stuff in it.

>snipped
>halfway through the afternoon.
>
take 'em a bit longer than that to fill one but generally the blokes
get told hey you got the equipment go water a gum tree or something
ladies are allowed to use the loo as they normally would push button
and blue lavender water excepted of course.

>>snipped
>>oh! nope not a drop blue lavender water in sight.
>
>snipped
>enough to retrieve their dropped phone??
>
nup no S bends good hey goes straight down express lift stopping at no
floors on the way, if they want it back they have to go fetch huh
anyway's most mobile phones don't decompose although i have read of
one that returns to dirt and the cover grows into a sunflower or is
this april and i don't know it??? lol

>>snipped
>I suppose you could even throw in a paper bag full of the day's kitchen
>peelings and food scraps?
>
yep would be a good way of getting supplies of ready worms for the
ardent fishermen around, a good selling point to get his my poo dun
smell wife to agree to getting a unit hey?? lol

>>snipped
>market and fully does away with the big round concrete septic tank.
>
>Again, thanks.

exactly john people in rural parctise frugal and our city cousins
waste away hey water's comes cheap doesn't it why conserve it when
everytime they push the button or turn on the hose for the car or lawn
there it is more regular than some people are hey? shite might hit the
fan when nothing emits from the geisers though hey?? lol

yep hopefully it may get the odd mind working whether in toorak or
grebe hey chuckle, the social engineering has been a total success
hey?

len

--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/

my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send.