[Ornata]

I've ordered some seeds of Musa sikkimensis. I've read that bananas need high temperatures for successful germination (30-35 degrees C). I don't think my rather basic heated propagators will reach this temperature. Does anybody have any tips for getting good germination? Also, should I soak the seeds first?

Another question: how do you overwinter your outdoor-planted bananas? I think I've made a big mistake with my existing banana plant - an Ensete ventricosum planted out in my south London garden. I had the idea that this variety was root hardy, but have since read that it isn't. I've wrapped it in fleece (which the foxes keep pulling off - the devils) and given it a hat to keep the rain off, but I'm really not too confident that it will survive even our mild winter. I read that a good method of protection is to build an enclosure and stuff it with straw; are there better methods? I've also just bought an Ensete ventricosum 'Maurelii' (Red Abyssinian Banana) from Mulu, which I'll plant out in April/May. I think its reddish leaves are going to look stunning with the sunlight through them... but I'll try to give it better winter protection.

Any advice on banana germination or overwintering gratefully received.

"Ornata" wrote in message
...

I've ordered some seeds of Musa sikkimensis. I've read that bananas
need high temperatures for successful germination (30-35 degrees C). I
don't think my rather basic heated propagators will reach this
temperature. Does anybody have any tips for getting good germination?
Also, should I soak the seeds first?

Another question: how do you overwinter your outdoor-planted bananas?
I think I've made a big mistake with my existing banana plant - an
Ensete ventricosum planted out in my south London garden. I had the
idea that this variety was root hardy, but have since read that it
isn't. I've wrapped it in fleece (which the foxes keep pulling off -
the devils) and given it a hat to keep the rain off, but I'm really
not too confident that it will survive even our mild winter. I read
that a good method of protection is to build an enclosure and stuff it
with straw; are there better methods? I've also just bought an Ensete
ventricosum 'Maurelii' (Red Abyssinian Banana) from Mulu, which I'll
plant out in April/May. I think its reddish leaves are going to look
stunning with the sunlight through them... but I'll try to give it
better winter protection.

Any advice on banana germination or overwintering gratefully received.
Ornata

I saw some banana seeds yesterday while at my favourite seed shop. I didn't get
any and of course now wish I had!!

Seed info : http://www.readytogrow.co.uk/seeds/cult_banana.html
General info: http://www.jungleseeds.co.uk/BananaArticle.htm
Forum info: http://www.banana-tree.com/Forum/ind...topicID~99.cfm

Let us know how you get on and maybe I'll give it a go next year:~)
Jenny

"Ornata" wrote
I've ordered some seeds of Musa sikkimensis. I've read that bananas
need high temperatures for successful germination (30-35 degrees C). I
don't think my rather basic heated propagators will reach this
temperature. Does anybody have any tips for getting good germination?

Very high temperatures are almost obligatory for getting a good
germination from most species of banana (Musa). Musa sikkimensis
needs at least 30C to get it going and 35C is even better. However,
you'll be glad to hear that once it is well established, it is fairly
hardy, depending upon the strain you have or the provenance of the
seeds. Here in South Devon, I have a nice clump with about 12 'trunks'
that regularly exceeds 25 feet each summer. This winter, it retained
most of its leaves and it never gets any protection. In your part of
the world, you might need to insulate the 'trunks' from November -
March. Your best bet is to soak the seeds for at least 3 days
(preferably 5) in tepid water, changing with fresh every day and then
sow 1" deep in moist perlite.

Seal the pot in a poly-bag and place in an airing cupboard, close to
the immersion heater. Inspect the seeds at least once a week and make
sure that the perlite does not become too dry. Depending upon the
freshness of the seed, germination can occur at any stage between 14 -
120 days!!! When shoots appear, gradually inure them to full light
and lower temperatures. Prick out into a mix of equal parts
sterilised multi-purpose and perlite once the first leaf starts to
unfold.

When growing strongly, pot on to a 3" pot using straight multi-purpose
and once the roots start to appear through the drainage holes, pot on
again, but this time into a 6" pot with equal parts multi-purpose and
JI no 2. After that pot on as necessary, lavish all the care, feed
and moisture you can and stand back. Bananas are lovers of heavy
feeding and when growing well, you simply cannot overwater or overfeed
them - provided temperatures and sunlight are at a maximum.

Another question: how do you overwinter your outdoor-planted bananas?
I think I've made a big mistake with my existing banana plant - an
Ensete ventricosum planted out in my south London garden. I had the
idea that this variety was root hardy, but have since read that it
isn't. I've wrapped it in fleece (which the foxes keep pulling off -
the devils) and given it a hat to keep the rain off, but I'm really
not too confident that it will survive even our mild winter.

It all depends. Its been an exceptionally mild (non) winter in many
regions (here - just one short lived frost to minus 1.5C all winter)
and Ensete ventricosum is a darned sight tougher than many writers
would have you believe. There's a fair chance that your plant will
have survived. Since it does not need the big spring heat-surges that
many Musas require to start them growing, you may be pleasantly
surprised to see new leaves peeking out within a month or so. Just
sit and wait it out. If the stump becomes totally soft, mushy and
smelly, it has died. If it remains firm - especially close to the
base, it has survived and should make a good recovery.

I read
that a good method of protection is to build an enclosure and stuff it
with straw; are there better methods?

No, really good air circulation is essential to prevent rot setting
in. Just try to keep the worst of the winter rains away from the
centre of the plant.

I've also just bought an Ensete
ventricosum 'Maurelii' (Red Abyssinian Banana) from Mulu, which I'll
plant out in April/May. I think its reddish leaves are going to look
stunning with the sunlight through them... but I'll try to give it
better winter protection.

In my experience, the variety 'Maurelii' is more cold hardy than the
plain species, so giving it the same level of protection should be
fine. Just remember, that if air temperatures remain above minus 6C
with the level of protection you are planning, forms of Ensete
ventricosum are likely to survive and increase in size. But then
that's another problem - they get absolutely massive. They need no
protection at all here in South Devon and grow like the blazes. I
gave up on a 16 footer recently, because it grew to almost the same
across - and that after only 36 months from sowing!!!

Just an afterthought, David Constantine at Koba-Koba in Somerset is
the biggest Musa suppliers in the UK and he now stocks a related
variety to 'Maurelii' known as 'Montbeliardii'. It is not quite so
darkly coloured, but makes up for this by being more slender and
infinitely more elegant. 'Maurelii' grows fat and squat, whereas
'Montbeliardii' makes a lovely and impressive spire of richly flushed
foliage. A much better plant IMO.

Any advice on banana germination or overwintering gratefully received.
Ornata

In theory, Musa ornata should be nearly as tough as Musa basjoo, but
sadly it ain't. It can reshoot from its underground rhizome, but
needs really good spring heat to persuade it to wake up properly if it
is knocked back. Ideally it needs frost free or (even better -
maintaining at no less than 3C) if it is to do really well and flower
reliably. Its a lovely species, but I've tried many forms over the
past 5 years and none are happy with prolonged exposures of low to
near zero temperatures unless they are kept moderately dry and given a
sudden surge of early heat to start them off again.

Kept in a frost free or slightly heated greenhouse, plants will
develop into nice compact clumps, topped in late summer by impressive
spikes of pink, reddish or purple bracted flowers. Musa ornata is a
very fine 'tub plant', but needs to be planted very close to a warm
sunny wall and lavishly insulated if it is to survive permanently out
of doors. The closely related Musa mannii is a bit more resilient,
but needs to be grown to a decent size before risking permanently out
of doors. 3 years old and filling a 12- 14" tub is about right.

Hope that helps.
Dave Poole
Torquay, Coastal South Devon UK
Winter min -2°C. Summer max 34°C.
Growing season: March - November

Dave Poole wrote:
Another question: how do you overwinter your outdoor-planted bananas?
I think I've made a big mistake with my existing banana plant - an
Ensete ventricosum planted out in my south London garden. I had the
idea that this variety was root hardy, but have since read that it
isn't. I've wrapped it in fleece (which the foxes keep pulling off -
the devils) and given it a hat to keep the rain off, but I'm really
not too confident that it will survive even our mild winter.

It all depends. Its been an exceptionally mild (non) winter in many
regions (here - just one short lived frost to minus 1.5C all winter)
and Ensete ventricosum is a darned sight tougher than many writers
would have you believe. There's a fair chance that your plant will
have survived. Since it does not need the big spring heat-surges that
many Musas require to start them growing, you may be pleasantly
surprised to see new leaves peeking out within a month or so. Just
sit and wait it out. If the stump becomes totally soft, mushy and
smelly, it has died. If it remains firm - especially close to the
base, it has survived and should make a good recovery.


My South London experience (SW19) says Ensette v.'maurellii' is most
unlikely to survive outside even with good wrapping.

I've had totally unprotected M.basjoo survive unscathed and grow on again
from the 2m trunk, while a nearby well wrapped maurellii turned to mush! The
problem is the odd night of very deep frost in an other wise mild winter -
basjoo shrugs that off, but maurellii dislikes even one deep cold night.

I've now given up on it as my wife objected to the dining room being taken
over by a 2.5m triffid each winter!

pk

Before the first frost, I would dig it up, cut the leaves off, put the end
with the root ball into a plastic bag, and lay it inside a building that
never gets cold enough to freeze. Then in the spring when all danger of
frost is over, replant it.

My wife and I have ours planted in pots, and we carry them inside before the
frost. we store them in a warmed room and keep the lights on 12 hours a
day, in addition to what comes in from the windows. We have never had any
bananas from the trees, but I am not sure which type they are.

Dwayne

"Ornata" wrote in message
...

I've ordered some seeds of Musa sikkimensis. I've read that bananas
need high temperatures for successful germination (30-35 degrees C). I
don't think my rather basic heated propagators will reach this
temperature. Does anybody have any tips for getting good germination?
Also, should I soak the seeds first?

Another question: how do you overwinter your outdoor-planted bananas?
I think I've made a big mistake with my existing banana plant - an
Ensete ventricosum planted out in my south London garden. I had the
idea that this variety was root hardy, but have since read that it
isn't. I've wrapped it in fleece (which the foxes keep pulling off -
the devils) and given it a hat to keep the rain off, but I'm really
not too confident that it will survive even our mild winter. I read
that a good method of protection is to build an enclosure and stuff it
with straw; are there better methods? I've also just bought an Ensete
ventricosum 'Maurelii' (Red Abyssinian Banana) from Mulu, which I'll
plant out in April/May. I think its reddish leaves are going to look
stunning with the sunlight through them... but I'll try to give it
better winter protection.

Any advice on banana germination or overwintering gratefully received.


--
Ornata

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 23:15:08 +0000 (UTC), "pk"
wrote:

My South London experience (SW19) says Ensette v.'maurellii' is most
unlikely to survive outside even with good wrapping.

It all depends upon location and your micro-climate. I'm part of a
group of exotic plant nutcases who continually 'push the envelope' in
terms of testing plant hardiness throughout much of the country and
many of us have reported surprising successes with overwintering
'Maurelii' and ventricosum proper. There is a problem though - not
necessarily with the plant, but possibly due to the way it is
propagated. Many 'Maureliis' develop a serious condition that I
dubbed 'strangles' some years ago. In this, the new spring growth
becomes distorted and severely constricted and can kill the plant.

'Maurelii' is micro-propped on a fairly large scale and I suspect that
a rogue plant inadvertently got into the gene pool and is now being
propped unwittingly. Unfortunately, in the first year, the condition
is not apparent, so suppliers would have a bit of a job cleaning up
stocks. That is assuming it is a genetic imbalance. It does not
appear to have popped up in the US, so I think that the actual
chemicals used in micro propping can be discounted.

I've had totally unprotected M.basjoo survive unscathed and grow on again
from the 2m trunk, while a nearby well wrapped maurellii turned to mush!

Basjoo holds on to 10-12ft trunks here and often keeps a few to many
shredded leaves going at the same time - likewise sikkimensis and
itinerans. Ensete tends to lose its biggest leaves, but usually there
are a few 2 - 3 footers in the centre, which keep going.

The
problem is the odd night of very deep frost in an other wise mild winter -
basjoo shrugs that off, but maurellii dislikes even one deep cold night.

Well, I would certainly suggest a good 'sock' of straw for protection
against those occasional heavy frosts. A good method is to sandwich a
4 - 6" thick pad of straw between 2 sheets of netting (netlon or
rokolene is ideal). Make sure that the base of the plant has a good
thick mulch extending out about 2 feet and then drape the 'sock' over
and around the 'trunk' during cold weather. A cap of polythene over
the top (but not the sides) will be enough to prevent too much water
percolating into the heart of the plant.

In very cold regions, you may need to increase the thickness of the
straw padding and I know of some in the Midlands who add loads of
loosely crumpled fleece for good measure as well. Its a bit of a fad
I know, but it works well with a lot of folks and keeps the dining
/utility/living room clear. Some dig them up and store them dry, but
that's far too much like hard work for me. That said, it is the
method originally adopted when the species was first introduced.
Those poor Victorian gardeners!

I've now given up on it as my wife objected to the dining room being taken
over by a 2.5m triffid each winter!

I can't keep the darned things indoors. They survive the winter and
then rot in spring no matter what I do. Outside - no problems! I
know what you mean though. You work to get them looking big and sassy
and then have to struggle to accommodate them in winter. Not easy and
as mentioned before, I had to take my last one down altogether because
it became far too big and pushed everything else out of the way.
Musas I can cope with because in no time at all they develop well
defined 'trunks' allowing room for other plants beneath. Ensetes
make huge rosettes of foliage more or less from ground level and that
can be a problem when they start to take over everything else.


Dave Poole
Torquay, Coastal South Devon UK
Winter min -2°C. Summer max 34°C.
Growing season: March - November

[Ornata]

Thanks very much for your helpful and detailed replies. I'll try germinating the seeds as advised, on top of the combi boiler as I don't have an airing cupboard (but it seems to maintain a temperature of 30-37C so hopefully should be okay).

Originally Posted by Dave Poole