Soil TOO well drained - is there such a thing?

[Mister Sensitive]

We built raised beds for veggies this year. First try with raised beds. We
got soil from B&B topsoil mine, with which we've had great success in the
past. We tilled the soil into furrows and planted veggies along the furrow
ridge. I water every day it doesn't rain, but the plants are growing very
slowly, if at all. We left a couple of plants in the valleys in their
nursery containers, to backfill failing plants. The valley plants are
growing much better. I also noticed after prodigious watering that the soil
is pretty dry just under the surface if I scratch the wet soil. The only
time the plants seem to grow is after these recent long drenching rains.

Have we created too much drainage for water and are depriving our plants of
water?

Thanks,

Hungry in Hillsborough

[Baine Carruthers]

It may have more to do with the ability of your soil to hold nutrients (CEC
cation exchange capacity) rather than soil moisture. I do not know anything
about the mix you purchased but many commercial mixes contain a lot of sand
and pine bark that typically have a very low CEC. I would check the soil
and pH out.

In the long run in our area, it's always better to have soils on the well
drained side. It's much easier to manage the water.

--
Baine



"Mister Sensitive" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> We built raised beds for veggies this year. First try with raised beds. We
> got soil from B&B topsoil mine, with which we've had great success in the
> past. We tilled the soil into furrows and planted veggies along the furrow
> ridge. I water every day it doesn't rain, but the plants are growing very
> slowly, if at all. We left a couple of plants in the valleys in their
> nursery containers, to backfill failing plants. The valley plants are
> growing much better. I also noticed after prodigious watering that the
soil
> is pretty dry just under the surface if I scratch the wet soil. The only
> time the plants seem to grow is after these recent long drenching rains.
>
> Have we created too much drainage for water and are depriving our plants
of
> water?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Hungry in Hillsborough
>
>

[Raleighgirl]

"Mister Sensitive" > wrote in
message
nk.net...
| We built raised beds for veggies this year. First try with
raised beds. We
| got soil from B&B topsoil mine, with which we've had great
success in the
| past. We tilled the soil into furrows and planted veggies along
the furrow
| ridge. I water every day it doesn't rain, but the plants are
growing very
| slowly, if at all. We left a couple of plants in the valleys in
their
| nursery containers, to backfill failing plants. The valley
plants are
| growing much better. I also noticed after prodigious watering
that the soil
| is pretty dry just under the surface if I scratch the wet soil.
The only
| time the plants seem to grow is after these recent long
drenching rains.
|
| Have we created too much drainage for water and are depriving
our plants of
| water?
|
| Thanks,
|
| Hungry in Hillsborough
|
I would try mulching with newspaper to help the soil retain some
of the water.

[tomatolord]

I would also not water every day. Most plants need only to be watered once
a week.

Which is why you have the furrows so the plant does NOT sit in water but
grows root down

Nursery containers are supposed to be watered everyday - they dry out very
fast.

good luck!


"Mister Sensitive" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> We built raised beds for veggies this year. First try with raised beds. We
> got soil from B&B topsoil mine, with which we've had great success in the
> past. We tilled the soil into furrows and planted veggies along the furrow
> ridge. I water every day it doesn't rain, but the plants are growing very
> slowly, if at all. We left a couple of plants in the valleys in their
> nursery containers, to backfill failing plants. The valley plants are
> growing much better. I also noticed after prodigious watering that the
> soil
> is pretty dry just under the surface if I scratch the wet soil. The only
> time the plants seem to grow is after these recent long drenching rains.
>
> Have we created too much drainage for water and are depriving our plants
> of
> water?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Hungry in Hillsborough
>
>

[wdukes@fw.private.neotoma.org]

On 2005-06-10, tomatolord > wrote:
> I would also not water every day. Most plants need only to be watered once
> a week.
>
> Which is why you have the furrows so the plant does NOT sit in water but
> grows root down
>
> Nursery containers are supposed to be watered everyday - they dry out very
> fast.
>
> good luck!
>

I agree. Watering everyday is probably preventing the plants roots from
growing and may even be destroying roots.

You need 1 to 1.5 inches of rain per week. Which is roughly .75 - 1
gallon of water per square foot. For tomatoes planted six feet apart I
would not figure 36 sqft but more like 9 sqft so one tomato plant if it
did not rain would need 5-10 gallons of water per week. If it rained
half an inch then only water half that amount.

Last year we had a dwarf alberta spruce in a large pot. I did not
notice the drain hole had plugged and it sat in water for about a week.
The result was a dead spruce. Only things like cypress and rice can
stand in that much water and survive.
>
> "Mister Sensitive" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
>> We built raised beds for veggies this year. First try with raised beds. We
>> got soil from B&B topsoil mine, with which we've had great success in the
>> past. We tilled the soil into furrows and planted veggies along the furrow
>> ridge. I water every day it doesn't rain, but the plants are growing very
>> slowly, if at all. We left a couple of plants in the valleys in their
>> nursery containers, to backfill failing plants. The valley plants are
>> growing much better. I also noticed after prodigious watering that the
>> soil
>> is pretty dry just under the surface if I scratch the wet soil. The only
>> time the plants seem to grow is after these recent long drenching rains.
>>
>> Have we created too much drainage for water and are depriving our plants
>> of
>> water?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Hungry in Hillsborough
>>
>>
>
>


--
Wes Dukes (wdukes.pobox@com) Swap the . and the @ to email me please.

is a garbage address.

[Boowho]

I say that if the plants need water - water them. Soil conditions and
weather vary too much to have any set rules. All soils are different
and annual plants, especially veggies, need lots of water! Sounds to me
like you got some bad soil from B&B. I would let them know. Maybe you
could amend the soil as best you can this year to get something from
your plants, but prepare in advance to have better soil for next year.
I have learned this the hard way, too! Here is a website to see
regarding soil amendments -
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/consumer/quickref/soil/improving_soil.
html

Actually, maybe even better, see -
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/Garden/07235.html

That's my input - hope it helps a little!




In article >,
"tomatolord" > wrote:

> I would also not water every day. Most plants need only to be watered once
> a week.
>
> Which is why you have the furrows so the plant does NOT sit in water but
> grows root down
>
> Nursery containers are supposed to be watered everyday - they dry out very
> fast.
>
> good luck!
>
>
> "Mister Sensitive" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
> > We built raised beds for veggies this year. First try with raised beds. We
> > got soil from B&B topsoil mine, with which we've had great success in the
> > past. We tilled the soil into furrows and planted veggies along the furrow
> > ridge. I water every day it doesn't rain, but the plants are growing very
> > slowly, if at all. We left a couple of plants in the valleys in their
> > nursery containers, to backfill failing plants. The valley plants are
> > growing much better. I also noticed after prodigious watering that the
> > soil
> > is pretty dry just under the surface if I scratch the wet soil. The only
> > time the plants seem to grow is after these recent long drenching rains.
> >
> > Have we created too much drainage for water and are depriving our plants
> > of
> > water?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Hungry in Hillsborough
> >
> >

[wdukes@fw.private.neotoma.org]

On 2005-06-10, Boowho > wrote:
> I say that if the plants need water - water them. Soil conditions and
What is your definition of "needs water"?
I don't understand how to apply that rule.

> weather vary too much to have any set rules. All soils are different
> and annual plants, especially veggies, need lots of water! Sounds to me
> like you got some bad soil from B&B. I would let them know. Maybe you
> could amend the soil as best you can this year to get something from
> your plants, but prepare in advance to have better soil for next year.
> I have learned this the hard way, too! Here is a website to see
> regarding soil amendments -
> http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/consumer/quickref/soil/improving_soil.
> html
>
> Actually, maybe even better, see -
> http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/Garden/07235.html
>
> That's my input - hope it helps a little!
>
>
>
>
> In article >,
> "tomatolord" > wrote:
>
>> I would also not water every day. Most plants need only to be watered once
>> a week.
>>
>> Which is why you have the furrows so the plant does NOT sit in water but
>> grows root down
>>
>> Nursery containers are supposed to be watered everyday - they dry out very
>> fast.
>>
>> good luck!
>>
>>
>> "Mister Sensitive" > wrote in message
>> nk.net...
>> > We built raised beds for veggies this year. First try with raised beds. We
>> > got soil from B&B topsoil mine, with which we've had great success in the
>> > past. We tilled the soil into furrows and planted veggies along the furrow
>> > ridge. I water every day it doesn't rain, but the plants are growing very
>> > slowly, if at all. We left a couple of plants in the valleys in their
>> > nursery containers, to backfill failing plants. The valley plants are
>> > growing much better. I also noticed after prodigious watering that the
>> > soil
>> > is pretty dry just under the surface if I scratch the wet soil. The only
>> > time the plants seem to grow is after these recent long drenching rains.
>> >
>> > Have we created too much drainage for water and are depriving our plants
>> > of
>> > water?
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Hungry in Hillsborough
>> >
>> >


--
Wes Dukes (wdukes.pobox@com) Swap the . and the @ to email me please.

is a garbage address.

[Dick Adams]

Mister Sensitive > wrote:

> We built raised beds for veggies this year. First try with raised beds.
> We got soil from B&B topsoil mine, with which we've had great success
> in the past. We tilled the soil into furrows and planted veggies along
> the furrow ridge. I water every day it doesn't rain, but the plants are
> growing very slowly, if at all.

I would grow either if you were drowning me. My raised bed experience
is limited to peppers, tomatoes, and beans. I water them to the point
of flood level and then wait until the soil is bone dry before I water
them again.

> We left a couple of plants in the valleys in their nursery containers,
> to backfill failing plants. The valley plants are growing much better.

No surprise, they are draining well.

> I also noticed after prodigious watering that the soil is pretty dry
> just under the surface if I scratch the wet soil. The only time the
> plants seem to grow is after these recent long drenching rains.

Maybe your soil is too tightly packed.

> Have we created too much drainage for water and are depriving our plants
> of water?

No way.

Dick

[Mitch Amiano]

My guess is that you are watering too quickly and shallowly. I use a
dripper system set up on a timer to do the job. The drippers are set to
let the water soak deeply and spread evenly.

I don't know anything about the B&B mix, but some soil components and
amendments are slightly hydrophobic when they are allowed to completely
dry out. They need to be soaked for quite a while before they take up
appreciable water. Peat moss is a good example of that. Clay particles
tend to adsorb water and swell, and while this can be great for sealing
ponds and landfills, when present in soils it helps increase their water
retention capacity. There are synthetic polymer products that will
retain even more water, but they break down after a couple of years and
don't contribute any minerals.

You don't say how much square footage is available to each plant. My
beds are intensively planted this year, so on days that are extremely
hot the plants themselves transpire so much water they dry the bed out.
The timer helps to manage that situation too, but the real solution
there is to thin out the plants.

Regards,

Mitch Amiano


Mister Sensitive wrote:
> We built raised beds for veggies this year. First try with raised beds. We
> got soil from B&B topsoil mine, with which we've had great success in the
> past. We tilled the soil into furrows and planted veggies along the furrow
> ridge. I water every day it doesn't rain, but the plants are growing very
> slowly, if at all. We left a couple of plants in the valleys in their
> nursery containers, to backfill failing plants. The valley plants are
> growing much better. I also noticed after prodigious watering that the soil
> is pretty dry just under the surface if I scratch the wet soil. The only
> time the plants seem to grow is after these recent long drenching rains.
>
> Have we created too much drainage for water and are depriving our plants of
> water?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Hungry in Hillsborough
>
>

[Mister Sensitive]

Each plant has at least 6 square feet of soil. I figure at the early stages,
crowding should never be an issue.

An update: I have begun watering more deeply and less often. Suddenly, the
plants are starting to take off. I think the roots have reached the furrow
valleys and are ready to kick it.

Also, I looked at some digital pix of the early garden and realized that
stuff was actually growing. I was kind of thinking of some magic beans,
perhaps?


"Mitch Amiano" > wrote in message
. com...
> My guess is that you are watering too quickly and shallowly. I use a
> dripper system set up on a timer to do the job. The drippers are set to
> let the water soak deeply and spread evenly.
>
> I don't know anything about the B&B mix, but some soil components and
> amendments are slightly hydrophobic when they are allowed to completely
> dry out. They need to be soaked for quite a while before they take up
> appreciable water. Peat moss is a good example of that. Clay particles
> tend to adsorb water and swell, and while this can be great for sealing
> ponds and landfills, when present in soils it helps increase their water
> retention capacity. There are synthetic polymer products that will
> retain even more water, but they break down after a couple of years and
> don't contribute any minerals.
>
> You don't say how much square footage is available to each plant. My
> beds are intensively planted this year, so on days that are extremely
> hot the plants themselves transpire so much water they dry the bed out.
> The timer helps to manage that situation too, but the real solution
> there is to thin out the plants.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mitch Amiano
>
>
> Mister Sensitive wrote:
> > We built raised beds for veggies this year. First try with raised beds.
We
> > got soil from B&B topsoil mine, with which we've had great success in
the
> > past. We tilled the soil into furrows and planted veggies along the
furrow
> > ridge. I water every day it doesn't rain, but the plants are growing
very
> > slowly, if at all. We left a couple of plants in the valleys in their
> > nursery containers, to backfill failing plants. The valley plants are
> > growing much better. I also noticed after prodigious watering that the
soil
> > is pretty dry just under the surface if I scratch the wet soil. The only
> > time the plants seem to grow is after these recent long drenching rains.
> >
> > Have we created too much drainage for water and are depriving our plants
of
> > water?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Hungry in Hillsborough
> >
> >