Thatch

[J. M. Russo]

My lawn accumulates an excessive amount of thatch. Does
anyone know the cause of this, how to prevent it from happening
and how to get rid of the existing thatch as easily as possible.
I am in northern New Jersey. I use Scott's premium seed which
hasn't seemed to help the way the lawn looks. Would all of this
thatch be the reason? I appreciate your help.

[Aspasia]

On Mon, 04 Jul 2005 19:37:31 GMT, "J. M. Russo"
> wrote:

>
>
> My lawn accumulates an excessive amount of thatch. Does
>anyone know the cause of this, how to prevent it from happening
>and how to get rid of the existing thatch as easily as possible.
>I am in northern New Jersey. I use Scott's premium seed which
>hasn't seemed to help the way the lawn looks. Would all of this
>thatch be the reason? I appreciate your help.

How high/low is your mower set?


--

Aspasia

[J. M. Russo]

Aspasia wrote:
> On Mon, 04 Jul 2005 19:37:31 GMT, "J. M. Russo"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>
>> My lawn accumulates an excessive amount of thatch. Does
>>anyone know the cause of this, how to prevent it from happening
>>and how to get rid of the existing thatch as easily as possible.
>>I am in northern New Jersey. I use Scott's premium seed which
>>hasn't seemed to help the way the lawn looks. Would all of this
>>thatch be the reason? I appreciate your help.
>
>
> How high/low is your mower set?
>
>
> --
>
> Aspasia
I have a service to cut the grass.

[Stephen Henning]

"J. M. Russo" > wrote:

> My lawn accumulates an excessive amount of thatch. Does
> anyone know the cause of this, how to prevent it from happening
> and how to get rid of the existing thatch as easily as possible.

These factors increase thatch development in grass by increasing
production of stems, leaf sheaths, and decay-resistant tissue:
1. choosing particularly vigorously growing grass varieties
2. applying excessive amounts of nitrogen, especially in spring
3. mowing infrequently or allowing grass to grow too tall before
mowing
4. growing varieties that are known to produce large amounts of
tough, fibrous tissue
5. compacted soil conditions leading to shallow root development

Other contributing factors are factors that decrease the rate at which
thatch decomposes:
6. acidic soil conditions
7. pesticides that restrict micro-organism or earthworm activity
8. allowing lawns to go dormant

Newer, improved varieties of Kentucky bluegrass that have been developed
for vigorous growth and better recovery on athletic fields and
high-quality home lawns develop thatch more quickly than the less
vigorously growing common types of Kentucky bluegrass.

Ways to prevent thatch include:

Fertilize only enough to maintain the lawn's desired color and growth.
Fall fertilization (mid to late October) is preferred to spring
fertilization because the resulting growth is not as rapid and lush.

Compacted soils and soils with poor drainage tend to accumulate thatch
faster than well-drained soils. Aerification promotes better moisture
and air penetration into compacted soils. It helps establish a deeper
and healthier root system and also stimulates the microbial activity
involved in decomposing the thatch layer. To be effective, the aerifier
must have hollow tines or spoons that bring the cores of soil to the
surface.

Mowing frequency is determined by the growth rate of the grass. If the
desired height is two inches, grass should be cut when it is no more
than three inches tall - regardless of the mower used.

Avoid using pesticides as much as possible. Many pesticides affect the
microbial and earthworm populations that are involved in decomposing the
thatch layer.

--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA
http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman

[Bourne Identity]

On Mon, 04 Jul 2005 19:37:31 GMT, "J. M. Russo"
> wrote:

>
>
> My lawn accumulates an excessive amount of thatch. Does
>anyone know the cause of this, how to prevent it from happening
>and how to get rid of the existing thatch as easily as possible.
>I am in northern New Jersey. I use Scott's premium seed which
>hasn't seemed to help the way the lawn looks. Would all of this
>thatch be the reason? I appreciate your help.

Chances are you are not watering properly. This is the number one
reason thatch is produced. When you do not water deeply, the roots of
the turf stay near the surface. People who water five minutes a day,
vs. people who water once a week putting down one inch of water have
far more problems with thatch buildup.

So, how are you watering?

[Rob Mills]

Maybe your lawn service is not bagging the cut grass or maybe their
equipment is not picking it up very well. If they are using mulching type
mowers it's possible that it's not cutting it up fine enough.
We had a Troy Built mulching mower that did an excellent job of mulching but
when we replaced it with a Craftsman mulcher it did a sorry job so had to go
back to bagging, in other words, all mulchers ain't equal. RM ~

PS, The new Troy Built mowers are not half the mower the old ones were,
which is the reason we changed.

[Ben]

I find that statement interesting. I'm no expert but I thought that
thatch was still attached the the roots, not clippings. I've been
trying to get an expert opinion on that for years.

[Stephen Henning]

"Ben" > wrote:

> I'm no expert but I thought that
> thatch was still attached the the roots, not clippings. I've been
> trying to get an expert opinion on that for years.

It is both the clippings and dead roots and leaf sheaths and other dead
material that harbor disease at the ground level. If air can penetrate,
it is not all bad. I hot weather it can help shade the roots. However
when is too dense it can prevent aeration and harbor disease.

--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA
http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman

[Warren]

Ben wrote:
>I find that statement interesting. I'm no expert but I thought that
> thatch was still attached the the roots, not clippings. I've been
> trying to get an expert opinion on that for years.

The thatch is the dead, fibrous material still attached to the roots, and
often has green tips. It could be a result of a chain of events that
includes clippings, but it's not the clippings, and normal clippings aren't
the cause.

If the lawn isn't mowed often enough, and if when it is mowed too much is
consistently mowed-off at once, those clippings can essentially form a mulch
that'll make it difficult for air and water to get to the soil. Combine that
with frequent, shallow watering, and you'll get shallow roots. The shoots
growing off those shallow roots are more likely to form a layer of dead
thatch.

Putting too much nitrogen fertilizer on the lawn will cause it to grow too
fast, setting-up the whole cycle. With just the decomposed clippings
providing nitrogen on my lawn this year, I've had to mow two -- sometimes
three! -- times a week. And that was with the mower at the highest setting,
I was often finding myself mowing close to 1/3 the height of the grass even
when mowing that often.

I don't have a thatch problem, but my neighbor does. His lawn service spread
fertilizer in mid-spring, and only mowed once a week. And when it was mowed,
it was practically scalped. The only plus was that the service bagged the
clippings. We've gone only about 4 days without rain, and my neighbor's lawn
is already just golden tips on top of a layer of thatch.

So the lawn where the clipping were bagged has a thatch problem. The lawn
where the clippings were left doesn't. Looking at the two lawns makes it
obvious that it's not leaving the clippings that causes thatch problems.
It's a combination of fertilization, and mowing frequency and height.

Once the neighbor starts watering, he'll water for 15 or 20 minutes every
day, so later this year you'll also be able to see how daily shallow
watering vs. weekly deep watering will also affect lawn health. The layer of
thatch on his lawn is only going to make it worse, too. By fall, he'll have
one dead lawn with a few patches of fungal problems, at which point his lawn
service will spray some more crap on his lawn. The fall rains will come, and
by November he'll have a halfway decent looking lawn (if you look fast), and
he'll be convinced that it was whatever the lawn guy sprayed on it at the
end of summer.

I'm not sure how many more times we'll repeat this annual cycle before he
believes me when I tell him that it all started with the fertilizer his
service dumped on the lawn in the spring, or that the biggest factor was the
low, only weekly mowing. Or that his summer solution of shallow watering
didn't help, either. He still hasn't figured out that his lawn looks the
best during the 4 months that his lawn service doesn't touch it each winter.

--
Warren H.

==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
Have an outdoor project? Get a Black & Decker power tool::
http://www.holzemville.com/mall/blackanddecker/

[J. M. Russo]

Stephen Henning wrote:
> "J. M. Russo" > wrote:
>
>
>> My lawn accumulates an excessive amount of thatch. Does
>>anyone know the cause of this, how to prevent it from happening
>>and how to get rid of the existing thatch as easily as possible.
>
>
> These factors increase thatch development in grass by increasing
> production of stems, leaf sheaths, and decay-resistant tissue:
> 1. choosing particularly vigorously growing grass varieties
> 2. applying excessive amounts of nitrogen, especially in spring
> 3. mowing infrequently or allowing grass to grow too tall before
> mowing
> 4. growing varieties that are known to produce large amounts of
> tough, fibrous tissue
> 5. compacted soil conditions leading to shallow root development
>
> Other contributing factors are factors that decrease the rate at which
> thatch decomposes:
> 6. acidic soil conditions
> 7. pesticides that restrict micro-organism or earthworm activity
> 8. allowing lawns to go dormant
>
> Newer, improved varieties of Kentucky bluegrass that have been developed
> for vigorous growth and better recovery on athletic fields and
> high-quality home lawns develop thatch more quickly than the less
> vigorously growing common types of Kentucky bluegrass.
>
> Ways to prevent thatch include:
>
> Fertilize only enough to maintain the lawn's desired color and growth.
> Fall fertilization (mid to late October) is preferred to spring
> fertilization because the resulting growth is not as rapid and lush.
>
> Compacted soils and soils with poor drainage tend to accumulate thatch
> faster than well-drained soils. Aerification promotes better moisture
> and air penetration into compacted soils. It helps establish a deeper
> and healthier root system and also stimulates the microbial activity
> involved in decomposing the thatch layer. To be effective, the aerifier
> must have hollow tines or spoons that bring the cores of soil to the
> surface.
>
> Mowing frequency is determined by the growth rate of the grass. If the
> desired height is two inches, grass should be cut when it is no more
> than three inches tall - regardless of the mower used.
>
> Avoid using pesticides as much as possible. Many pesticides affect the
> microbial and earthworm populations that are involved in decomposing the
> thatch layer.
>
Thanks so much for giving me such useful information. I have
done some of the don'ts which from your information I can
understand why my lawn has so much thatch. You all have been so
helpful and I really appreciate your sound advice.

[Bourne Identity]

On Mon, 4 Jul 2005 17:43:44 -0500, "Rob Mills" >
wrote:

>Maybe your lawn service is not bagging the cut grass or maybe their
>equipment is not picking it up very well. If they are using mulching type
>mowers it's possible that it's not cutting it up fine enough.
>We had a Troy Built mulching mower that did an excellent job of mulching but
>when we replaced it with a Craftsman mulcher it did a sorry job so had to go
>back to bagging, in other words, all mulchers ain't equal. RM ~
>
>PS, The new Troy Built mowers are not half the mower the old ones were,
>which is the reason we changed.
>

Myth: grass clippings cause thatch.

Fact: poor watering practices cause thatch.

[Bourne Identity]

On 4 Jul 2005 16:31:22 -0700, "Ben" > wrote:

>I find that statement interesting. I'm no expert but I thought that
>thatch was still attached the the roots, not clippings. I've been
>trying to get an expert opinion on that for years.

Thatch is a layer of roots on the surface. This happens due to
shallow watering, not grass clippings. If anything, the clippings add
a bit of nitrogen back to the turf. If you have a serious problem and
water is not penetrating the thick layer of thatch, hire a service to
come in and remove it, or rent a dethatcher for the day or hours, etc.
After you so that service done, have them do something called "core
aeration." This is where actual plugs are removed from the soil,
beware of any wires of sprinklers when doing this or having it done.
All service companies with wires in the ground will come out for free
and mark their wires on the ground so you can avoid them.

If you do this, and water deeply less often, you will never have
thatch. Do a search and find out how to determine when you've watered
an inch of water. Do that once every week, or in the south, every
five days. Never water on a timed schedule. Always water based on the
volume of water you are putting down. The deeper the watering, the
deeper the roots, and the roots will not hover at the surface where
the shallow watering is.

[Travis]

J. M. Russo wrote:
> Aspasia wrote:
> > On Mon, 04 Jul 2005 19:37:31 GMT, "J. M. Russo"
> > > wrote:
> >
> >
> > >
> > > My lawn accumulates an excessive amount of thatch. Does
> > > anyone know the cause of this, how to prevent it from happening
> > > and how to get rid of the existing thatch as easily as possible.
> > > I am in northern New Jersey. I use Scott's premium seed which
> > > hasn't seemed to help the way the lawn looks. Would all of this
> > > thatch be the reason? I appreciate your help.
> >
> >
> > How high/low is your mower set?
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Aspasia
> I have a service to cut the grass.

If you did your own yard work you might have a better idea of what is
going on. What fun is it to have a yard if someone else does all the
work.

--

Travis in Shoreline (just North of Seattle) Washington
USDA Zone 8
Sunset Zone 5

[Travis]

Stephen Henning wrote:
> "J. M. Russo" > wrote:
>
> > My lawn accumulates an excessive amount of thatch. Does
> > anyone know the cause of this, how to prevent it from happening
> > and how to get rid of the existing thatch as easily as possible.
>
> These factors increase thatch development in grass by increasing
> production of stems, leaf sheaths, and decay-resistant tissue:
> 1. choosing particularly vigorously growing grass varieties
> 2. applying excessive amounts of nitrogen, especially in spring
> 3. mowing infrequently or allowing grass to grow too tall
> before mowing
> 4. growing varieties that are known to produce large amounts of
> tough, fibrous tissue
> 5. compacted soil conditions leading to shallow root
> development
>
> Other contributing factors are factors that decrease the rate at
> which thatch decomposes:
> 6. acidic soil conditions
> 7. pesticides that restrict micro-organism or earthworm
> activity
> 8. allowing lawns to go dormant
>
> Newer, improved varieties of Kentucky bluegrass that have been
> developed for vigorous growth and better recovery on athletic
> fields and high-quality home lawns develop thatch more quickly than
> the less vigorously growing common types of Kentucky bluegrass.
>
> Ways to prevent thatch include:
>
> Fertilize only enough to maintain the lawn's desired color and
> growth. Fall fertilization (mid to late October) is preferred to
> spring fertilization because the resulting growth is not as rapid
> and lush.
>
> Compacted soils and soils with poor drainage tend to accumulate
> thatch faster than well-drained soils. Aerification promotes better
> moisture and air penetration into compacted soils. It helps
> establish a deeper and healthier root system and also stimulates
> the microbial activity involved in decomposing the thatch layer. To
> be effective, the aerifier must have hollow tines or spoons that
> bring the cores of soil to the surface.
>
> Mowing frequency is determined by the growth rate of the grass. If
> the desired height is two inches, grass should be cut when it is no
> more than three inches tall - regardless of the mower used.
>
> Avoid using pesticides as much as possible. Many pesticides affect
> the microbial and earthworm populations that are involved in
> decomposing the thatch layer.

Using a mulching mower will reduce the need for fertilizer.

--

Travis in Shoreline (just North of Seattle) Washington
USDA Zone 8
Sunset Zone 5

[Travis]

Bourne Identity wrote:
> On Mon, 04 Jul 2005 19:37:31 GMT, "J. M. Russo"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > My lawn accumulates an excessive amount of thatch. Does
> > anyone know the cause of this, how to prevent it from happening
> > and how to get rid of the existing thatch as easily as possible.
> > I am in northern New Jersey. I use Scott's premium seed which
> > hasn't seemed to help the way the lawn looks. Would all of this
> > thatch be the reason? I appreciate your help.
>
> Chances are you are not watering properly. This is the number one
> reason thatch is produced. When you do not water deeply, the roots
> of the turf stay near the surface. People who water five minutes a
> day, vs. people who water once a week putting down one inch of
> water have far more problems with thatch buildup.
>
> So, how are you watering?

He probably has a watering service.

--

Travis in Shoreline (just North of Seattle) Washington
USDA Zone 8
Sunset Zone 5

[Bourne Identity]

On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 06:05:55 GMT, "Travis"
> wrote:


>If you did your own yard work you might have a better idea of what is
>going on. What fun is it to have a yard if someone else does all the
>work.

Cutting grass is fun?

[Travis]

Bourne Identity wrote:
> On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 06:05:55 GMT, "Travis"
> > wrote:
>
>
> > If you did your own yard work you might have a better idea of
> > what is going on. What fun is it to have a yard if someone else
> > does all the work.
>
> Cutting grass is fun?

Cutting the grass is just a small part of it.

--

Travis in Shoreline (just North of Seattle) Washington
USDA Zone 8
Sunset Zone 5

[Bourne Identity]

On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 17:56:23 GMT, "Travis"
> wrote:

>Bourne Identity wrote:
>> On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 06:05:55 GMT, "Travis"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>> > If you did your own yard work you might have a better idea of
>> > what is going on. What fun is it to have a yard if someone else
>> > does all the work.
>>
>> Cutting grass is fun?
>
>Cutting the grass is just a small part of it.

We don't have a service because I have removed 75% of the turf from
our property. It only exists in small areas on our half acre. If we
had a large lawn I'd hire someone. Now, actually doing the gardening
is the fun part. However, this year will make it the sixth year since
we bought this house and I need to do less and less. I don't need
another plant. The fun part also is watching the wildlife we've
attracted. There is a bunny who loves the horseherb and keeps that
mowed nicely. He/she also really likes the ruellia.

Anyway, I like to garden, but mowing...nah.

Victoria

[Warren]

Bourne Identity wrote:
> We don't have a service because I have removed 75% of the turf from
> our property. It only exists in small areas on our half acre. If we
> had a large lawn I'd hire someone. Now, actually doing the gardening
> is the fun part. However, this year will make it the sixth year since
> we bought this house and I need to do less and less. I don't need
> another plant. The fun part also is watching the wildlife we've
> attracted. There is a bunny who loves the horseherb and keeps that
> mowed nicely. He/she also really likes the ruellia.
>
> Anyway, I like to garden, but mowing...nah.
>

I wouldn't exactly call mowing "fun". It's about as much fun as playing
Solitaire.

"Whoopee! I went clockwise instead of counter-clockwise, and it's blowing my
mind!"

I suppose it's more like fishing. You can get away from everything (no one
tries to engage you in mindless chatter over the roar of the engine), and
you can pretend it's an athletic activity. But on the other hand, I've also
reduced the size of my lawn, so this sports getaway (of sorts) doesn't last
nearly long enough to matter. And if it did, I don't think that would make
it more "fun".

Even though I apparently don't have as much fun as Travis has mowing the
lawn, I would be very concerned if it were too much work for me. A walk
around the yard behind the mower is still easier than the so many other
necessary parts of gardening that require bending or digging. I suspect that
mowing my lawn will be the last part of maintaining my landscape that I'll
give-up.

The real fun part is sitting on the bench in front of my pond, with my cat
on my lap, and both of us looking around at the tranquil landscaping
punctuated with splashes of color, and contrasts of texture and foliage. And
if I'm munching on something I grew myself, that's a fun bonus.

But that'll have to wait. I need to mow the lawn now. ;)

--
Warren H.

==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
Have an outdoor project? Get a Black & Decker power tool::
http://www.holzemville.com/mall/blackanddecker/