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Old 03-02-2010, 02:59 AM posted to aus.gardens
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Default Mulching with hay bales...

.... it's been a /very/ long time since I've used bales of hay to mulch
with.

My question is, what sort of area should I expect to cover per bale?

I used to peel off a 'slab' about 2-3" thick to mulch any given spot, if
that's any indication.

I'll most likely get the older/smaller bales rather than the big round
type - depending on cost and availability - but if anyone can give me
average coverage figures for either or both types, I'd very much
appreciate it.

Cheers

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Old 03-02-2010, 03:05 AM posted to aus.gardens
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Default Mulching with hay bales...

Jeßus wrote:
... it's been a /very/ long time since I've used bales of hay to mulch
with.

My question is, what sort of area should I expect to cover per bale?

I used to peel off a 'slab' about 2-3" thick to mulch any given spot, if
that's any indication.

I'll most likely get the older/smaller bales rather than the big round
type - depending on cost and availability - but if anyone can give me
average coverage figures for either or both types, I'd very much
appreciate it.

Cheers

Sounds like a job for gardenlen
He's the expert in hay.
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Old 03-02-2010, 07:34 PM posted to aus.gardens
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Default Mulching with hay bales...

pretty hard to determine how far mulch will go as it comes packed
tight to loose there is no real standard, and bales can be larger or
smaller again no standard.

the way i mulch i try to keep it all around 8"s thick and that
determines how far a bale goes. buiscuits can vary in thickness also
curently bales of sugar cane mulch gibing 4" to 5" that can't be
seperated thinner.

On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 12:59:11 +1100, Jeßus wrote:

snipped
--

len

With peace and brightest of blessings,

"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.lensgarden.com.au/
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Old 05-02-2010, 02:01 AM posted to aus.gardens
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Default Mulching with hay bales...

In article , gardenlen0
@bigpond.com said...
:
retty hard to determine how far mulch will go as it comes packed
:tight to loose there is no real standard, and bales can be larger or
:smaller again no standard.
:
:the way i mulch i try to keep it all around 8"s thick and that
:determines how far a bale goes. buiscuits can vary in thickness also
:curently bales of sugar cane mulch gibing 4" to 5" that can't be
:seperated thinner.

Thank for the advice Len.

As you say, too many variables involved to say with any degree of
certainty. I'll just get as big a load as I can.

One way or the other it'll be quickly used up, I planted somewhere
between 200-300 trees last year, and most of those will need some re-
mulching before too long. Then there's the impending (new) polytunnel,
which I hope will be ready to go by mid-autumn. Also the shade house
veggie garden and the 'open' veggie gardens. And the fruit trees... and
on it goes...


:
:On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 12:59:11 +1100, Jeßus wrote:
:
:snipped



--
"There will never be uniform gun laws in Australia until we see a
massacre in Tasmania." - New South Wales Premier Barry Unsworth,
December 1987
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Old 05-02-2010, 04:37 AM posted to aus.gardens
anm anm is offline
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Default Mulching with hay bales...

On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 12:59:11 +1100, Jeßus wrote:

... it's been a /very/ long time since I've used bales of hay to mulch
with.

My question is, what sort of area should I expect to cover per bale?

I used to peel off a 'slab' about 2-3" thick to mulch any given spot, if
that's any indication.

I'll most likely get the older/smaller bales rather than the big round
type - depending on cost and availability - but if anyone can give me
average coverage figures for either or both types, I'd very much
appreciate it.

Cheers


Checked with some farming friends.
A lot of variables - depends on what type of hay (meadow, oaten, wheaten,
plain straw etc)and also the thickness of the crop which has been bailed.
The bailer apparently pushes/rams a biscuit on set rotations.
Therefore , in theory, the heavier the crop, the thicker the biscuit;
though skilled operators have ways to maintain same size bales through
heavy and light crops - apparently more an art than a science.

BALE SIZE:
A rough average for a (small) bale would be 14 to 16 inches high x 18
inches wide by about 34 to 40 inches long (measured along the string/s).
A fair summation would be 16"x18"x36".

The number of biscuits in a 36" bale could vary from 8 to 12 - let's say
10, which makes each biscuit about 3"

COVERAGE:
Then coverage would be approx. 2sq.ft per biscuit or around 20sq.ft (just
under 2sq.m) per bale (to a depth of 3").

You know how much and how thick you want to mulch. Simple arithmetic
from there will give you rough bale numbers.

PRICE:
Hay seems to be $5 per bale through $14, again depending on quality,
content and quantity purchased. Not sure what it is in Tasie.

Would suggest for mulching, try for "old season" (last year's - 2008)
hay. This can be cheaper (and/or give you negotiating advantage) than
"new season".

Also try for "damaged hay" - usually been subject to some rain damage, or
come from the bottom layer of a stack and may have a bit of mould. OK
for mulching. You would need to check your newspapers or contact local
farmers. Meadow hay tends to be cheaper; the "Boss" swears by it
reckoning the worms get into it a lot faster; who am I to argue?

Again like most of us, your "needs" will probably be tempered by the
balance in the cheque book.

ROUND BALES"
Round bales also vary in size; generally 4' to 6' diameter and 4' upwards
in length, and of course are harder to handle without machinery. They
usually run to a volume equivalent of 60 to 100 "small bales" - say 80 to
again give you a rough calculation for coverage, though per unit cost
would be less; lower baling and handling costs as round bales can at a
pinch be made by one person who, with the right machinery, can take the
hay from mowing through to stacking.

If you have a front end loader or can fabricate something on a 3 point
linkage to handle the bale/s, this may be OK for you.

HTH
Keep smiling
anm


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Old 05-02-2010, 01:38 PM posted to aus.gardens
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Default Mulching with hay bales...

"Jeßus" wrote in message
...
In article , gardenlen0
@bigpond.com said...
:
retty hard to determine how far mulch will go as it comes packed
:tight to loose there is no real standard, and bales can be larger or
:smaller again no standard.
:
:the way i mulch i try to keep it all around 8"s thick and that
:determines how far a bale goes. buiscuits can vary in thickness also
:curently bales of sugar cane mulch gibing 4" to 5" that can't be
:seperated thinner.

Thank for the advice Len.

As you say, too many variables involved to say with any degree of
certainty. I'll just get as big a load as I can.

One way or the other it'll be quickly used up, I planted somewhere
between 200-300 trees last year, and most of those will need some re-
mulching before too long. Then there's the impending (new) polytunnel,
which I hope will be ready to go by mid-autumn. Also the shade house
veggie garden and the 'open' veggie gardens. And the fruit trees... and
on it goes...


A lady I know wrote a rather good book on kitchen gardening and she says to
never use straw straight from the bale but to age the bales first by letting
them sit on the earth and turning them occasionally for a couple of months
till they lose that straw colour. I have been doing this now for a couple
of years and I think she's right. I now think that fresh straw isn't as
good to use for mulch as aged straw. Plants seem to prefer aged straw.


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Old 05-02-2010, 06:58 PM posted to aus.gardens
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Default Mulching with hay bales...

g'day anm,

the figure of equivalents of bales to rolls, this is always a hard one
to equate as bales can come packed tight or loose and slightly larger
or smaller but rolls are about medium to loose pack. generaly they
bandy figures of 10 to 12 bales at least no where near 15 to 20 bales
per 4' roll, for me i'd say at best 10 bales is a better comparrison.
the best way might be to imagine how many bales of hay stacked beside
a roll then add maybe 1 or 2. for me a roll doesn't take much longer
to use than it does 8 or 10 bales.

we just find the end of the net wrap and roll the hay first one way
'till space runs out then the other.

be good if a roll did equate to 60 bales it would run out so fast.

the best hay is spoilt lucerne or spoilt pasture grass hay, next in
line sugar cane mulch, most gardeners can't afford to buy quality
fodder hay for the garden.


On 05 Feb 2010 03:37:59 GMT, anm
wrote:
snipped
--

len

With peace and brightest of blessings,

"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.lensgarden.com.au/
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Old 05-02-2010, 07:20 PM posted to aus.gardens
anm anm is offline
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Default Mulching with hay bales...

On Fri, 05 Feb 2010 17:58:55 +0000, gardenlen wrote:

g'day anm,

the figure of equivalents of bales to rolls, this is always a hard one
to equate as bales can come packed tight or loose and slightly larger or
smaller but rolls are about medium to loose pack. generaly they bandy
figures of 10 to 12 bales at least no where near 15 to 20 bales per 4'
roll, for me i'd say at best 10 bales is a better comparrison. the best
way might be to imagine how many bales of hay stacked beside a roll then
add maybe 1 or 2. for me a roll doesn't take much longer to use than it
does 8 or 10 bales.

we just find the end of the net wrap and roll the hay first one way
'till space runs out then the other.

be good if a roll did equate to 60 bales it would run out so fast.

the best hay is spoilt lucerne or spoilt pasture grass hay, next in line
sugar cane mulch, most gardeners can't afford to buy quality fodder hay
for the garden.


On 05 Feb 2010 03:37:59 GMT, anm
wrote:
snipped
--

len

With peace and brightest of blessings,

"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In A World That You May Not
Understand."

http://www.lensgarden.com.au/


Thanks Len
You are correct of course
Teach me to double check the math
I had one "zero" too many
8 to 10 bales (equivalent) does calculate

4'dia x4' length calculates at 201 sq ft for a 3" depth (roughly
equivalent to 10 small bales)
(The mass of course, as you said, is subject to how tightly the bale has
been rolled)

And "yes" to the lucerne; it's supposed to be best
Has plenty of minerals etc
And as you know, it's a very deep rooting plant
However usually pretty hard (our area) to get "spoilt" lucerne
Wish we could

Keep smiling
anm
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Old 06-02-2010, 05:11 PM posted to aus.gardens
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Default Mulching with hay bales...

that's ok anm,

for me it would be good that your figures where right, at $60 a roll
or $8-9 a bale of s/c/m or spoilt lucern hay it isn't as cheap as
other places, around here.

take care

On 05 Feb 2010 18:20:11 GMT, anm
wrote:

snipped
--

len

With peace and brightest of blessings,

"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.lensgarden.com.au/
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Old 07-02-2010, 08:48 PM posted to aus.gardens
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Default Mulching with hay bales...

In article ,
lid said...
:
:On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 12:59:11 +1100, Jeßus wrote:
:
: ... it's been a /very/ long time since I've used bales of hay to mulch
: with.
:
: My question is, what sort of area should I expect to cover per bale?
:
: I used to peel off a 'slab' about 2-3" thick to mulch any given spot, if
: that's any indication.
:
: I'll most likely get the older/smaller bales rather than the big round
: type - depending on cost and availability - but if anyone can give me
: average coverage figures for either or both types, I'd very much
: appreciate it.
:
: Cheers
:
:Checked with some farming friends.
:A lot of variables - depends on what type of hay (meadow, oaten, wheaten,
lain straw etc)and also the thickness of the crop which has been bailed.
:The bailer apparently pushes/rams a biscuit on set rotations.
:Therefore , in theory, the heavier the crop, the thicker the biscuit;
:though skilled operators have ways to maintain same size bales through
:heavy and light crops - apparently more an art than a science.
:
:BALE SIZE:
:A rough average for a (small) bale would be 14 to 16 inches high x 18
:inches wide by about 34 to 40 inches long (measured along the string/s).
:A fair summation would be 16"x18"x36".
:
:The number of biscuits in a 36" bale could vary from 8 to 12 - let's say
:10, which makes each biscuit about 3"
:
:COVERAGE:
:Then coverage would be approx. 2sq.ft per biscuit or around 20sq.ft (just
:under 2sq.m) per bale (to a depth of 3").
:
:You know how much and how thick you want to mulch. Simple arithmetic
:from there will give you rough bale numbers.
:
:PRICE:
:Hay seems to be $5 per bale through $14, again depending on quality,
:content and quantity purchased. Not sure what it is in Tasie.
:
:Would suggest for mulching, try for "old season" (last year's - 2008)
:hay. This can be cheaper (and/or give you negotiating advantage) than
:"new season".
:
:Also try for "damaged hay" - usually been subject to some rain damage, or
:come from the bottom layer of a stack and may have a bit of mould. OK
:for mulching. You would need to check your newspapers or contact local
:farmers. Meadow hay tends to be cheaper; the "Boss" swears by it
:reckoning the worms get into it a lot faster; who am I to argue?
:
:Again like most of us, your "needs" will probably be tempered by the
:balance in the cheque book.
:
:ROUND BALES"
:Round bales also vary in size; generally 4' to 6' diameter and 4' upwards
:in length, and of course are harder to handle without machinery. They
:usually run to a volume equivalent of 60 to 100 "small bales" - say 80 to
:again give you a rough calculation for coverage, though per unit cost
:would be less; lower baling and handling costs as round bales can at a
inch be made by one person who, with the right machinery, can take the
:hay from mowing through to stacking.
:
:If you have a front end loader or can fabricate something on a 3 point
:linkage to handle the bale/s, this may be OK for you.
:
:HTH

It most certainly did 'H' anm, many thanks indeed

I'll work off (roughly) 20/160sq ft, should keep me out of trouble.
Prices here vary quite a bit - I've seen bales as low as $2 and up over
$10 - the latter for the likes of Lucerne of course.

All depends on what I can find locally vs. over towards Launceston,
which is a good hour's drive away via the 'goat track' - but many more
sellers in there. I have a trayback ute but am hoping to find a seller
who can deliver a decent load in one go, so local (which around here can
mean 30KM away) ought to work out cheaper for that.

And yes, if I can find some spoilt hay, so much the better...

Next year, I'll try to plan much further ahead. There are plenty of
paddocks around here with good material that just need baling up that
otherwise is going to waste. I'm sure I can tee up a deal and have it
baled up. I've only been in the area for about 18 months, so still don't
know all the 'right' people on this topic.

Anyway, thanks again for the great info!


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Old 07-02-2010, 08:54 PM posted to aus.gardens
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Default Mulching with hay bales...

In article ,
ask@itshall said...
:
:"Jeßus" wrote in message
...
: In article , gardenlen0
: @bigpond.com said...
: :
: retty hard to determine how far mulch will go as it comes packed
: :tight to loose there is no real standard, and bales can be larger or
: :smaller again no standard.
: :
: :the way i mulch i try to keep it all around 8"s thick and that
: :determines how far a bale goes. buiscuits can vary in thickness also
: :curently bales of sugar cane mulch gibing 4" to 5" that can't be
: :seperated thinner.
:
: Thank for the advice Len.
:
: As you say, too many variables involved to say with any degree of
: certainty. I'll just get as big a load as I can.
:
: One way or the other it'll be quickly used up, I planted somewhere
: between 200-300 trees last year, and most of those will need some re-
: mulching before too long. Then there's the impending (new) polytunnel,
: which I hope will be ready to go by mid-autumn. Also the shade house
: veggie garden and the 'open' veggie gardens. And the fruit trees... and
: on it goes...
:
:A lady I know wrote a rather good book on kitchen gardening and she says to
:never use straw straight from the bale but to age the bales first by letting
:them sit on the earth and turning them occasionally for a couple of months
:till they lose that straw colour. I have been doing this now for a couple
f years and I think she's right. I now think that fresh straw isn't as
:good to use for mulch as aged straw. Plants seem to prefer aged straw.

Based on past experiences, I tend to agree with the lady author you
know.

Hard to put into words why - perhaps it just 'beds down' better compared
to the stiffer, fresher/bulkier material and so forms a more effective
covering, whilst at the same time providing some organic material,
bacteria etc. to the soil more quickly?

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Old 07-02-2010, 08:55 PM posted to aus.gardens
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Default Mulching with hay bales...

In article ,
lid said...
:
:On Fri, 05 Feb 2010 17:58:55 +0000, gardenlen wrote:
:
: g'day anm,
:
: the figure of equivalents of bales to rolls, this is always a hard one
: to equate as bales can come packed tight or loose and slightly larger or
: smaller but rolls are about medium to loose pack. generaly they bandy
: figures of 10 to 12 bales at least no where near 15 to 20 bales per 4'
: roll, for me i'd say at best 10 bales is a better comparrison. the best
: way might be to imagine how many bales of hay stacked beside a roll then
: add maybe 1 or 2. for me a roll doesn't take much longer to use than it
: does 8 or 10 bales.
:
: we just find the end of the net wrap and roll the hay first one way
: 'till space runs out then the other.
:
: be good if a roll did equate to 60 bales it would run out so fast.
:
: the best hay is spoilt lucerne or spoilt pasture grass hay, next in line
: sugar cane mulch, most gardeners can't afford to buy quality fodder hay
: for the garden.
:
:
: On 05 Feb 2010 03:37:59 GMT, anm
: wrote:
: snipped
: --
:
: len
:
: With peace and brightest of blessings,
:
: "Be Content With What You Have And
: May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In A World That You May Not
: Understand."
:
:
http://www.lensgarden.com.au/
:
:Thanks Len
:You are correct of course
:Teach me to double check the math
:I had one "zero" too many
:8 to 10 bales (equivalent) does calculate
:
:4'dia x4' length calculates at 201 sq ft for a 3" depth (roughly
:equivalent to 10 small bales)
The mass of course, as you said, is subject to how tightly the bale has
:been rolled)
:
:And "yes" to the lucerne; it's supposed to be best
:Has plenty of minerals etc
:And as you know, it's a very deep rooting plant
:However usually pretty hard (our area) to get "spoilt" lucerne
:Wish we could

Correction noted


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Old 07-02-2010, 09:46 PM posted to aus.gardens
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Default Mulching with hay bales...

Jeßus wrote:
A lady I know wrote a rather good book on kitchen gardening and she
says to never use straw straight from the bale but to age the bales
first by letting them sit on the earth and turning them occasionally
for a couple of months till they lose that straw colour. I have
been doing this now for a couple of years and I think she's right.
I now think that fresh straw isn't as good to use for mulch as aged
straw. Plants seem to prefer aged straw.



How do you know this? What are the signs?

Based on past experiences, I tend to agree with the lady author you
know.

Hard to put into words why - perhaps it just 'beds down' better
compared to the stiffer, fresher/bulkier material and so forms a more
effective covering, whilst at the same time providing some organic
material, bacteria etc. to the soil more quickly?


Is what you you are using straw of hay? The two are not the same, they come
form different sources, have different content and behave differently.

David

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Old 08-02-2010, 03:39 AM posted to aus.gardens
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Default Mulching with hay bales...

"Jeßus" wrote in message
...
In article ,
ask@itshall said...
:"Jeßus" wrote in message
...
: As you say, too many variables involved to say with any degree of
: certainty. I'll just get as big a load as I can.
:
: One way or the other it'll be quickly used up, I planted somewhere
: between 200-300 trees last year, and most of those will need some re-
: mulching before too long. Then there's the impending (new) polytunnel,
: which I hope will be ready to go by mid-autumn. Also the shade house
: veggie garden and the 'open' veggie gardens. And the fruit trees... and
: on it goes...
:
:A lady I know wrote a rather good book on kitchen gardening and she says
to
:never use straw straight from the bale but to age the bales first by
letting
:them sit on the earth and turning them occasionally for a couple of
months
:till they lose that straw colour. I have been doing this now for a
couple
f years and I think she's right. I now think that fresh straw isn't as
:good to use for mulch as aged straw. Plants seem to prefer aged straw.

Based on past experiences, I tend to agree with the lady author you
know.

Hard to put into words why - perhaps it just 'beds down' better compared
to the stiffer, fresher/bulkier material and so forms a more effective
covering, whilst at the same time providing some organic material,
bacteria etc. to the soil more quickly?


what she says on the subject is the following:
"There are two good reasons for spoiling bales:
1. Germination or seed spoiling is encouraged and any grass that does grow
on the bale is killed as the bale is rotated.
2. During the first few weeks of rotting, the hay and straw produces toxins
that inhibit plant gowth including the growth of weeds. the toxicity can
last for a few weeks."

The toxicity doesn't surprise me a great deal given how resistant to
breaking down fresh straw can be if put straight on to beds. My soil needs
feeding rather than mulching as I have lots of other options for mulch.

One thing she doesn't mention is how attractive older bales are to earth
worms. I turn them as I remember and then they sit aroud doign nuttin' and
by the time I finally use them, I find that the side touching the ground is
alive with worms. It is these worms and the decay that I really want in
aged bales.


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Old 08-02-2010, 03:57 AM posted to aus.gardens
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Default Mulching with hay bales...

"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message
...
Jeßus wrote:
A lady I know wrote a rather good book on kitchen gardening and she
says to never use straw straight from the bale but to age the bales
first by letting them sit on the earth and turning them occasionally
for a couple of months till they lose that straw colour. I have
been doing this now for a couple of years and I think she's right.
I now think that fresh straw isn't as good to use for mulch as aged
straw. Plants seem to prefer aged straw.



How do you know this? What are the signs?


See my partial response in another post as it's got some relevance.

I've always had a great respect for earthworms. I've never seen an
earthworm in hay (of any variety) or straw (of any variety but I think I've
probably only ever used wheaten straw) that I used fresh on beds as mulch
but the same cannot be said for the spoiled bales. I figure earthworms know
what's good for them.

I assume that the positive effect on the plants could relate to what is in
effect the application of a slab of earthworms who have something to feed on
immediately the spoiled mulch is applied - they've already been feeding on
it, they don't need to go off and find food as they've already been feeding
and can stay there continuing to feed and thus doing the plant good. That,
plus the commencement of the rotting process in the bales that is in effect
a composting process already well on its way and that also makes the plants
respond positively.

I don't really know why as I'm not as clinically observant as say Jackie
French is when she notices something. I don't do the sorts of trials that
she does to see if there really is a difference, but then I'm also not
trying to sell books based on my experiences. I just do what I find works
here in my garden.

Give it a try with one bale and you too might become a convert.

Based on past experiences, I tend to agree with the lady author you
know.

Hard to put into words why - perhaps it just 'beds down' better
compared to the stiffer, fresher/bulkier material and so forms a more
effective covering, whilst at the same time providing some organic
material, bacteria etc. to the soil more quickly?


Is what you you are using straw of hay? The two are not the same, they
come form different sources, have different content and behave
differently.


True, and we've discussed those differences that here before. But I suspect
that many other posters aren't rural dweller so perhaps don't really know
the difference and they get what they can and at a price that they can
afford. I do the same and I do know the difference.



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