Hi all,
I was wondering if anyone bothered with the different strengths of rooting hormone. I realize that certain species of Tree/plants are harder to root than others. Are the Rooting powders found in most garden stores enough for even difficult to root material
or is it recommended to have a variety of different strengths on hand?

Al
New York
Zone 6, sunset zone 37
----- Original Message -----
From: Allen
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 5:39 PM
Subject: [IBC] Cuttings from woody plants


I just read in a post regarding taking cuttings to "Scrape the top
layer of bark with a razor to expose the green cadmium before applying
rooting hormone"
I'm new, and think the boxwoods i've put in pots are ok ... all i did
was cut them, dip into the hormone, put in a finger hole in the soil,
and pack the soil in. Are my boxwoods doomed ? Also, how much
rooting hormone is enough ? I'm being pretty liberal with it, and i
know that with plants, often too much is bad!

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In a message dated 4/8/03 11:43:52 PM, writes:

I was wondering if anyone bothered with the different strengths of rooting
hormone.

There is a great deal of debate among professionals as to the value of
rooting hormones. First, the amount used is quite small. The instruction is
usually to dip the cutting in the powder and knock off (on the inside edge of
the container) the excess. The cutting is then placed in the prepunched hole
so as to disturb the powder as little as possible. Professional nurserymen
use a liquid preparation. Agricultural colleges do research on the species
of plants of interest to growers in their state and publish results. A lot of
information is available on some species such as Poinsettia or Chrysanthemums.
However, this is usually too much for the average home grower. It would
be possible to look up the research, probably on the Internet, for a specific
species and then follow that research. The hormones needed would probably
have to be purchased in larger quantities from wholesale nursery supply
houses.
Finally, there are some who believe that the hormones are only a help in
preventing fungus while the plant roots itself.

Billy on the Florida Space Coast

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Hi all,
I was wondering if anyone bothered with the different strengths
of rooting hormone. I realize that certain species of Tree/plants
are harder to root than others. Are the Rooting powders found in
most garden stores enough for even difficult to root material or
is it recommended to have a variety of different strengths on
hand?

=============

I'm told that once the package/jar/envelope has been opened, the
shelf-life of the hormone is quite short, so unless you do a lot
of cuttings and air layers, it would be economically unfeasible
to keep various strengths on hand.

You need to check books such as any of Dirr's tomes beforehand to
see what your tree might need. I, for one, have found that
standard-issue Rootone in the small jars seems to work on just
about everything I've tried.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Our life is
frittered away by detail . . . . Simplify! Simplify. -- Henry
David Thoreau - Walden

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************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Finally, there are some who believe that the hormones are only a help in
preventing fungus while the plant roots itself.

Billy on the Florida Space Coast

Huh? Do you mean because most rooting formulations include a
fungicide, or are you talking about the action of the hormone itself?
I haven't heard this, but, of course, I've only been a tree
pathologist since Monday!

As Jim mentioned, one can get information about which strength of
rooting hormone to use from Dirr's propagation manual, which I can't
cite because it is still packed in a box. But that kind of
information is mostly useful to commercial growers, who need to root
cuttings at a high success rate at maximum speed. It's not that
crucial if you need one cutting to root at some point.
--
Nina Shishkoff

Frederick, MD

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Finally, there are some who believe that the hormones are
only a help in
preventing fungus while the plant roots itself.

Billy on the Florida Space Coast

Huh? Do you mean because most rooting formulations include a
fungicide, or are you talking about the action of the hormone
itself?
I haven't heard this, but, of course, I've only been a tree
pathologist since Monday!

As Jim mentioned, one can get information about which strength
of
rooting hormone to use from Dirr's propagation manual, which I
can't
cite because it is still packed in a box. But that kind of
information is mostly useful to commercial growers, who need to
root
cuttings at a high success rate at maximum speed. It's not
that
crucial if you need one cutting to root at some point.

Even Dirr's "Manual of Woody Landscape Plants" contains this info
for many species. Again, unless you're in the business of
propagation, Dirr's propagation manual is a bit much for most of
us. Most decent libraries have it in their reference section,
though, and you can take notes to your heart's content. After
all, we bonsaiests don't grow THAT many species.

(I think youse guys who have forgotten what books and libraries
are and insist on getting all of your info from the Internet may
be out of luck. I've not found a reliable (key word) propagation
site on the WWW yet.)

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Our life is
frittered away by detail . . . . Simplify! Simplify. -- Henry
David Thoreau - Walden

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I made 3 succesful cuttings few years ago
1 azalea and 1 trident maple and another on a coral maple--
the 3 of them were without hormones just cut ot took the splitted branch and put
into soil and forgot ..
( the pot of the same plant) the soil was mainly acidic

Now this year I put 4 Pentaphilla cuttings ( from mid jan. and they still look
ok) used powder hormons left in half shade( in home green house during jan and
feb.) and controlled the humidity . Last week I made fev cuttings 3 coral bark
maples 3 Dojojo maple ( no hormones )
3 weeks before ( 15 march) I made 2 cuttings of japanese maples less than 1 little
finger thick old branch , shaved a stripe underneth the branch put in the soil
almost horizontal and used hormons, The soil a sort of crushed lava to be kept
quite moist often ( the same I have seen in Arizona around trees instead of
shredded pinebark ..)
These cuttings bloomed with the little maple flowers, I cut all of them and the
little leaves are still very green .. The next cuttings will be be into sand
and peat 65/35 %
I am making cuttings this year almost each month( january to june) to see which
ones will make roots and in which sort of soil I will get the best results
the climate here should be something like in Virginia ( Geneva Switzerland
here) the cuttings are actually in north east position with mild sun in the
morning
Time will tell
Theo

Jim Lewis wrote:

Hi all,
I was wondering if anyone bothered with the different strengths
of rooting hormone. I realize that certain species of Tree/plants
are harder to root than others. Are the Rooting powders found in
most garden stores enough for even difficult to root material or
is it recommended to have a variety of different strengths on
hand?

=============

I'm told that once the package/jar/envelope has been opened, the
shelf-life of the hormone is quite short, so unless you do a lot
of cuttings and air layers, it would be economically unfeasible
to keep various strengths on hand.

You need to check books such as any of Dirr's tomes beforehand to
see what your tree might need. I, for one, have found that
standard-issue Rootone in the small jars seems to work on just
about everything I've tried.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Our life is
frittered away by detail . . . . Simplify! Simplify. -- Henry
David Thoreau - Walden

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Evergreen Gardenworks++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Xref: news7 rec.arts.bonsai:61542

At 11:13 PM 4/8/03 -0400, Al Polanco wrote:
Hi all,
I was wondering if anyone bothered with the different strengths of rooting
hormone. I realize that certain species of Tree/plants are harder to root
than others. Are the Rooting powders found in most garden stores enough
for even difficult to root material or is it recommended to have a variety
of different strengths on hand?

Folks

You wouldn't believe how much time and thought I have put into rooting
hormones over the last fifteen years. First, do rooting hormones (IBA, NAA,
etc) work? Absolutely. Much scientific work has been done and continues to
be done on the amount, type, preparation, and strength of hormones most
effective for thousands of species. The IPPS, International Plant
Propagators Society, is devoted to it. They meet once or twice a year and
attract people from around the world. They have produced _volumes_ of
information. Dirr's wonderful propagation book, The Reference Manual of
Woody Plant Propagation is a gleaning of this information for the most
common woody plants in the nursery trade.

Can you root cuttings without hormones? Absolutely. Plants produce their
own rooting hormones that become active when a stem is removed or broken
(or sometimes submerged or placed in darkness). For some species that is
all you need. For better rooting, and higher percentage of strikes,
applying additional hormone is usually recommended. Many species will
almost never root without exogonously applied hormone. Nearly all species
root better with an appropriate hormone.

What type of hormone to use? There are two common commercial preparation
types, talc based powders and solvent based liquids. Talcs generally
contain IBA as the active ingredient, although a few also contain NAA. The
strengths range from 0.1% to 4.5%. All these strengths are available over
the counter (Mellingers.com). One of the most common is Rootone which is
0.1%. It is fine for easy to root plants, ok for moderately hard to root
plants (mostly improving quality, not quantity of strikes), and pretty much
worthless for difficult to root plants. It does contain a fungicide that
may or may not be beneficial. In my opinion, a better way to go is Hormex.
They make small 3 jar sets of two hormone ranges. The first is the low
range, Hormex 1, 3, and 8. These are 0.1, 0.3, and 0.8% IBA respectively.
The three jar set is less than $10, although I haven't check the price in
ages. The higher range is Hormex 16, 30, and 45. These are 1.6, 3, and 4.5%
respectively. The most common liquid form is Dip and Grow, which is 1% IBA
and little NAA dissolved in alcohol. The solvent also acts as a carrier,
transporting the hormone into the bark tissue. This means that in general,
a lower concentration than the talc formulation can be used. For many easy
to moderately difficult to root species, this is a clear benefit. For other
species the solvent causes necrosis and cannot be used. In general, it is
far easier to 'burn' a cutting with a solvent based hormone. The strength
of the hormone is limited due to two factors: IBA is also slightly soluble
in alcohol (and far less soluble in water), and second, the concentrated
solvent is more likely to cause necrosis. Thus for difficult to root
species, talc formulations are usually better.

The preparation and after care of treated cuttings is very important.
Liquid hormones must be diluted properly and then the cuttings must be
treated properly. The weaker the solution, the longer the cutting must stay
in the solution. Most commercial growers use 'quick dip' concentrations.
That is, they go one level higher than recommended and just dip the
cuttings for a second and pull them out. Speed is important in any
industry. This sometimes causes necrosis at the base of the cutting, which
can be limited by keeping the depth dipped to about 1/4 inch. Talc
formulations have to stay on the cutting, so the cuttings have to be wet
and small quantities of hormone are used in the dipping vessel at one time
because it soon becomes a paste from the water. Usually, cuttings are
dipped to about one inch, and tapped against the vessel to remove the
excess. The cuttings are immediately stuck in saturated media and NOT
watered for as long as possible. Subsequent watering should be minimized to
keep the hormone stuck to the cuttings. Under mist systems, this is usually
not a problem. I once lost an entire season of extremely valuable pine
cuttings because the mist system got stuck in the on position when I wasn't
around. The cuttings survived but failed to root.

If you want some really esoteric reading material try Adventitious Root
Formation in Cuttings. It covers just about every thing imaginable that
causes or effects root formation. It is not exactly lightweight reading.
Dirr's book is a walk in the park next to this baby. Things I learned from
this book: Optimum all around, in general, light requirements for cuttings-
50% natural sunlight (50% shadecloth). Mist is better than enclosure
(cloches). Hormones only work for a very brief period of time soon after
the cutting is taken, after that, additional hormone may be detrimental.
Rooting of cuttings is FAR more complex than any of you have possibly
imagined. Bottom heat does work (I knew that already). Feeding of cuttings
is still an unresolved issue. Some plants exhibit a 'flood response', that
is why willows root in water. Probably a few other things that I can't
think of right now. Bottom line, there is no silver bullet. Plant
propagation as a biz is difficult and fraught with potential disaster
waiting around every corner.

Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14

http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Evergreen Gardenworks++++
************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Brent,
Thanks for the terrific summary of rooting cuttings. It should save folks a
lot of trial and error in getting started with cuttings.
Jerry Meislik
Whitefish Montana USA
Zone 3-4
http://www.bonsaihunk.8m.com/ Folks

You wouldn't believe how much time and thought I have put into rooting
hormones over the last fifteen years. First, do rooting hormones (IBA, NAA,
etc) work? Absolutely. Much scientific work has been done and continues to
be done on the amount, type, preparation, and strength of hormones most
effective for thousands of species. The IPPS, International Plant
Propagators Society, is devoted to it. They meet once or twice a year and
attract people from around the world. They have produced _volumes_ of
information. Dirr's wonderful propagation book, The Reference Manual of
Woody Plant Propagation is a gleaning of this information for the most
common woody plants in the nursery trade.

Can you root cuttings without hormones? Absolutely. Plants produce their
own rooting hormones that become active when a stem is removed or broken
(or sometimes submerged or placed in darkness). For some species that is
all you need. For better rooting, and higher percentage of strikes,
applying additional hormone is usually recommended. Many species will
almost never root without exogonously applied hormone. Nearly all species
root better with an appropriate hormone.

What type of hormone to use? There are two common commercial preparation
types, talc based powders and solvent based liquids. Talcs generally
contain IBA as the active ingredient, although a few also contain NAA. The
strengths range from 0.1% to 4.5%. All these strengths are available over
the counter (Mellingers.com). One of the most common is Rootone which is
0.1%. It is fine for easy to root plants, ok for moderately hard to root
plants (mostly improving quality, not quantity of strikes), and pretty much
worthless for difficult to root plants. It does contain a fungicide that
may or may not be beneficial. In my opinion, a better way to go is Hormex.
They make small 3 jar sets of two hormone ranges. The first is the low
range, Hormex 1, 3, and 8. These are 0.1, 0.3, and 0.8% IBA respectively.
The three jar set is less than $10, although I haven't check the price in
ages. The higher range is Hormex 16, 30, and 45. These are 1.6, 3, and 4.5%
respectively. The most common liquid form is Dip and Grow, which is 1% IBA
and little NAA dissolved in alcohol. The solvent also acts as a carrier,
transporting the hormone into the bark tissue. This means that in general,
a lower concentration than the talc formulation can be used. For many easy
to moderately difficult to root species, this is a clear benefit. For other
species the solvent causes necrosis and cannot be used. In general, it is
far easier to 'burn' a cutting with a solvent based hormone. The strength
of the hormone is limited due to two factors: IBA is also slightly soluble
in alcohol (and far less soluble in water), and second, the concentrated
solvent is more likely to cause necrosis. Thus for difficult to root
species, talc formulations are usually better.

The preparation and after care of treated cuttings is very important.
Liquid hormones must be diluted properly and then the cuttings must be
treated properly. The weaker the solution, the longer the cutting must stay
in the solution. Most commercial growers use 'quick dip' concentrations.
That is, they go one level higher than recommended and just dip the
cuttings for a second and pull them out. Speed is important in any
industry. This sometimes causes necrosis at the base of the cutting, which
can be limited by keeping the depth dipped to about 1/4 inch. Talc
formulations have to stay on the cutting, so the cuttings have to be wet
and small quantities of hormone are used in the dipping vessel at one time
because it soon becomes a paste from the water. Usually, cuttings are
dipped to about one inch, and tapped against the vessel to remove the
excess. The cuttings are immediately stuck in saturated media and NOT
watered for as long as possible. Subsequent watering should be minimized to
keep the hormone stuck to the cuttings. Under mist systems, this is usually
not a problem. I once lost an entire season of extremely valuable pine
cuttings because the mist system got stuck in the on position when I wasn't
around. The cuttings survived but failed to root.

If you want some really esoteric reading material try Adventitious Root
Formation in Cuttings. It covers just about every thing imaginable that
causes or effects root formation. It is not exactly lightweight reading.
Dirr's book is a walk in the park next to this baby. Things I learned from
this book: Optimum all around, in general, light requirements for cuttings-
50% natural sunlight (50% shadecloth). Mist is better than enclosure
(cloches). Hormones only work for a very brief period of time soon after
the cutting is taken, after that, additional hormone may be detrimental.
Rooting of cuttings is FAR more complex than any of you have possibly
imagined. Bottom heat does work (I knew that already). Feeding of cuttings
is still an unresolved issue. Some plants exhibit a 'flood response', that
is why willows root in water. Probably a few other things that I can't
think of right now. Bottom line, there is no silver bullet. Plant
propagation as a biz is difficult and fraught with potential disaster
waiting around every corner.

Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14

http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Evergreen Gardenworks++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

In a message dated 4/9/2003 8:29:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
writes:

Finally, there are some who believe that the hormones are only a help in
preventing fungus while the plant roots itself.

Billy on the Florida Space Coast

Huh? Do you mean because most rooting formulations include a
fungicide, or are you talking about the action of the hormone itself?

I don't know where I picked this up. Probably from some fellow gardeners
here in Florida. Most of the powders do contain a fungicide.
Billy on the Florida Space Coast

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Evergreen Gardenworks++++
************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++