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Old 11-07-2003, 05:18 PM
Gordon Williams
 
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Default [IBC] Water pH

Hi,

I have been trying to grow mugho pines over the last few years with limited
success. So far I have killed about 5. I thought that it might be too
little sun or too much water, but now I am unsure. Even the ones that
survived 1 full year never did flourish and eventually died. Recently I had
the house water tested and the pH came back at 9.2. I spoke to someone in
the water treatment office and he didn't think that the water would affect
the plants because the soil would quickly change the pH of the water.

Any comments about if this might be a potential problem and what might be
done to correct it if required.

Regards,

Gordon Williams

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Old 11-07-2003, 11:08 PM
nick
 
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Default [IBC] Water pH

Gordon

as a fish keeper and a bonsai enthusiast let ne tell you that the soil
will change the PH if it is new but this affect is quickly removed after
repeated waterings if you added peat fibre to the water and let it stand
for a week this would lower the PH Ph is a funny old thing it is not the
only factor in the equasion there is the hardness to consider and TDS total
dIsolved salts remember the lower the PH and hardness the less stable the
water is with a tendency to fluctuate very quickly in a few hours sorry to
baffle you but there is a solution

You can buy a R/O unit reverse osmosis this attaches to a mains water
pipe and in affect removes all total disolved salts all harmfull chemicals
and minerals and most trace elements and lowers PH

I use one for my azaleas you just have to watch the trace element side wich
is easily fixed by a pinch of trace element frit once a month you can
water your trees all over when the leaves dry not a mark on them if you
live in the USA check out www.kentmarine.com

a 15 gallon a day unit is probbably £90 dollars thats a guess

-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club ]On Behalf
Of Gordon Williams
Sent: 11 July 2003 15:50
To:
Subject: [IBC] Water pH


Hi,

I have been trying to grow mugho pines over the last few years with limited
success. So far I have killed about 5. I thought that it might be too
little sun or too much water, but now I am unsure. Even the ones that
survived 1 full year never did flourish and eventually died. Recently I had
the house water tested and the pH came back at 9.2. I spoke to someone in
the water treatment office and he didn't think that the water would affect
the plants because the soil would quickly change the pH of the water.

Any comments about if this might be a potential problem and what might be
done to correct it if required.

Regards,

Gordon Williams

************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

************************************************** ******************************
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************************************************** ******************************
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  #3   Report Post  
Old 12-07-2003, 12:32 AM
Gordon Williams
 
Posts: n/a
Default [IBC] Water pH

Hi,

Actually, I was told that the water was very soft here in Ottawa. They have
the pH this low to prevent damage to the pipes. We have a problem with lead
pipes and lead getting into the drinking water here and the change in pH is
supposed to reduce that. I as told that if the water was harder, the
minerals coat the pipes and reduce the lead.

Anyway, I was surprised by the low value and was wondering if this was the
reason my pines were dying.

Regards,

Gordon Williams


----- Original Message -----
From: "Pickering, Nick"
To: "'Gordon Williams'"
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 10:53 AM
Subject: [IBC] Water pH


Blimey. That is very hard water !!

You can reduce the pH of the water you give to your plants by adding
vinegar. It's worthwhile taking a litre of water, adding small
amounts of vinegar, until the pH reads about 6-7. Then you should know
how much water you need to add to your can before each watering. The
procedure is pretty quick.

Seriously, i've never come across such hard water as that.

Regards

Nick

BTW, you can use lemon juice, phosphoric acid, etc. as a 'pH down'
solution. (Bicarbonate of Soda can be used as a 'pH up').

-----Original Message-----
From: Gordon Williams ]
Sent: 11 July 2003 15:50
To:
Subject: [IBC] Water pH


Hi,

I have been trying to grow mugho pines over the last few years with

limited
success. So far I have killed about 5. I thought that it might be too
little sun or too much water, but now I am unsure. Even the ones that
survived 1 full year never did flourish and eventually died. Recently I

had
the house water tested and the pH came back at 9.2. I spoke to someone in
the water treatment office and he didn't think that the water would affect
the plants because the soil would quickly change the pH of the water.

Any comments about if this might be a potential problem and what might be
done to correct it if required.

Regards,

Gordon Williams


************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++

************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++


--

NOTICE: The information contained in this electronic mail transmission is
intended by Convergys Corporation for the use of the named individual or
entity to which it is directed and may contain information that is
privileged or otherwise confidential. If you have received this

electronic
mail transmission in error, please delete it from your system without
copying or forwarding it, and notify the sender of the error by reply

email
or by telephone (collect), so that the sender's address records can be
corrected.



************************************************** ******************************
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************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++
  #4   Report Post  
Old 12-07-2003, 12:33 AM
Jim Lewis
 
Posts: n/a
Default [IBC] Water pH

the house water tested and the pH came back at 9.2. I spoke
to someone in
the water treatment office and he didn't think that the water

would affect
the plants because the soil would quickly change the pH of

the water.


I've been away (and all my plants have mutated to octupuses in 5
days!) so don't know what else has been said in this thread.

However, the fellow in your water office probably was right for
plants that are growing in the ground. He was NOT right for
bonsai. If you use something like turface in your mix that is
going to give your soil a fairly high pH reading anyway, and it
will have little or no buffering effect on the soil your trees
grow in. Add some well-cured horse/goat/cow/llama/chicken manure
compost to your soil. Add sphagnum moss, or COARSE peat.

Other suggestions about adding vinegar or lemon juice to your
water may have some merit. I've never heard of drinking water
with that high a pH. Use at least a 20-20-20 (acid) fertilizer.

Do NOT try to grow azaleas or blueberries.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The phrase
'sustainable growth' is an oxymoron. - Stephen Viederman

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++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
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http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++
  #5   Report Post  
Old 12-07-2003, 12:34 AM
Billy M. Rhodes
 
Posts: n/a
Default [IBC] Water pH

The pH is starving your plants. The take up of nutrients is partly a factor
of pH at that high a pH your plants are getting any food. That is why they
decline and die

Billy on the Florida Space Coast

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++


  #6   Report Post  
Old 12-07-2003, 12:37 AM
Gordon Williams
 
Posts: n/a
Default [IBC] Water pH

Hi,

Actually, I was told that the water was very soft here in Ottawa. They have
the pH this low to prevent damage to the pipes. We have a problem with lead
pipes and lead getting into the drinking water here and the change in pH is
supposed to reduce that. I as told that if the water was harder, the
minerals coat the pipes and reduce the lead.

Anyway, I was surprised by the low value and was wondering if this was the
reason my pines were dying.

Regards,

Gordon Williams


----- Original Message -----
From: "Pickering, Nick"
To: "'Gordon Williams'"
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 10:53 AM
Subject: [IBC] Water pH


Blimey. That is very hard water !!

You can reduce the pH of the water you give to your plants by adding
vinegar. It's worthwhile taking a litre of water, adding small
amounts of vinegar, until the pH reads about 6-7. Then you should know
how much water you need to add to your can before each watering. The
procedure is pretty quick.

Seriously, i've never come across such hard water as that.

Regards

Nick

BTW, you can use lemon juice, phosphoric acid, etc. as a 'pH down'
solution. (Bicarbonate of Soda can be used as a 'pH up').

-----Original Message-----
From: Gordon Williams ]
Sent: 11 July 2003 15:50
To:
Subject: [IBC] Water pH


Hi,

I have been trying to grow mugho pines over the last few years with

limited
success. So far I have killed about 5. I thought that it might be too
little sun or too much water, but now I am unsure. Even the ones that
survived 1 full year never did flourish and eventually died. Recently I

had
the house water tested and the pH came back at 9.2. I spoke to someone in
the water treatment office and he didn't think that the water would affect
the plants because the soil would quickly change the pH of the water.

Any comments about if this might be a potential problem and what might be
done to correct it if required.

Regards,

Gordon Williams


************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++

************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++


--

NOTICE: The information contained in this electronic mail transmission is
intended by Convergys Corporation for the use of the named individual or
entity to which it is directed and may contain information that is
privileged or otherwise confidential. If you have received this

electronic
mail transmission in error, please delete it from your system without
copying or forwarding it, and notify the sender of the error by reply

email
or by telephone (collect), so that the sender's address records can be
corrected.



************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++
  #7   Report Post  
Old 12-07-2003, 12:37 AM
Jim Lewis
 
Posts: n/a
Default [IBC] Water pH

the house water tested and the pH came back at 9.2. I spoke
to someone in
the water treatment office and he didn't think that the water

would affect
the plants because the soil would quickly change the pH of

the water.


I've been away (and all my plants have mutated to octupuses in 5
days!) so don't know what else has been said in this thread.

However, the fellow in your water office probably was right for
plants that are growing in the ground. He was NOT right for
bonsai. If you use something like turface in your mix that is
going to give your soil a fairly high pH reading anyway, and it
will have little or no buffering effect on the soil your trees
grow in. Add some well-cured horse/goat/cow/llama/chicken manure
compost to your soil. Add sphagnum moss, or COARSE peat.

Other suggestions about adding vinegar or lemon juice to your
water may have some merit. I've never heard of drinking water
with that high a pH. Use at least a 20-20-20 (acid) fertilizer.

Do NOT try to grow azaleas or blueberries.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The phrase
'sustainable growth' is an oxymoron. - Stephen Viederman

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++
  #8   Report Post  
Old 12-07-2003, 12:37 AM
Billy M. Rhodes
 
Posts: n/a
Default [IBC] Water pH

The pH is starving your plants. The take up of nutrients is partly a factor
of pH at that high a pH your plants are getting any food. That is why they
decline and die

Billy on the Florida Space Coast

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++
  #9   Report Post  
Old 12-07-2003, 03:20 AM
Anita Hawkins
 
Posts: n/a
Default [IBC] Water pH

Gordon - there's got to be some confusion here somewhere between you
and the water company A pH of 9.2 is not low, it's HIGH. Neutral is
pH 7.0, the higher numbers are alkaline, and the lower numbers acid. A
pH of 9.2 is quite high for drinking water! Bet it practically rattles
coming out of the faucet... "Hard" water, that is, with a large amount
of dissolved salts, typically has a higher pH as well.

Mugos, like most pines, prefer soil on the acid side. My references
say ~6, and as low as 4! Depending on the components of your bonsai
soil, the high pH of your water *may* be an problem. The water company
was right that soil can change the pH of applied water, but that is
true mostly for ground-soil, where you have a large volume and a lot
of organic content with buffering capacity on your side. Container
plants in peat-based houseplant soil would be less affected than
bonsai in gravel or baked-clay-based soils without much organic content.

High pH also reduces the ability of plants to absorb certain trace
elements, especially metals. This may be weakening your mugos, as well
as other plants. Look at your local plant supply supplier for a
fertilizer that contains chelated iron.

Here's an excellent online guide to pH prefs of landscape plants:
http://www.extension.umn.edu/distrib...s/1731-29.html
You'll notice that they give only 3 categories, slightly alkaline,
slightly acid, and more acid. Nothing much prefers more alkaline, and
most plants are really pretty adaptable (notice how many have Xs in 2
or all 3 categories).

Another possibility is that mugos, in my brief experience, and many
friends' reported losses, really dislike simultaneous root and top
work. Try doing only one "half" each year, and see if that less
cavalier approach helps!

For your water, here's some options:
-acidify the water
-use distilled or rain water for *all* your bonsai
-make your soil mix more acid with a higher organic content to buffer

Which of these makes the most sense for your particular situation,
only you can judge. Do you have other bonsai enthusiasts in the area
with same water supply that you can trade notes with?

Grow well,
Anita

Gordon Williams wrote:
Hi,

Actually, I was told that the water was very soft here in Ottawa. They have
the pH this low to prevent damage to the pipes. We have a problem with lead
pipes and lead getting into the drinking water here and the change in pH is
supposed to reduce that. I as told that if the water was harder, the
minerals coat the pipes and reduce the lead.

Anyway, I was surprised by the low value and was wondering if this was the
reason my pines were dying.


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++
  #10   Report Post  
Old 12-07-2003, 07:44 AM
MartyWeiser
 
Posts: n/a
Default [IBC] Water pH

Could we have a situation where the water system is going for the higher pH
to slow dissolution of lead in the solder joints, but have softened the
water with sodium or potassium replacement of the natural magnesium or
calcium cations? This is what is done in a standard household water
softener - lousy water for plants, but you your shampoo lathers and you
don't get those ugly hard water stains. At the other end of the pH spectrum
acetic acid found in vinegar is a standard way to leach out lead to look at
the solder joint structure.

I agree that to growth pines and some of the other plants that prefer lower
pH conditions will require either different water or adjusting the pH of
your current water. Rainwater is good if you can store it, distilled is
expensive and will require a fair bit of trace mineral attention, and
adjusting was covered a year or so ago - I believe the preferred acid was
nitric (might as well add a little nitrate while you are at it), but this is
very touchy business - commercial nitric acid is very dangerous and will
have to be diluted one the order of thousands:1 depending upon the actual
water composition. Unless you are trained chemist the other approaches are
safer to both yourself and your bonsai.

Regards - Marty


Gordon Williams wrote:
Hi,

Actually, I was told that the water was very soft here in Ottawa. They

have
the pH this low to prevent damage to the pipes. We have a problem with

lead
pipes and lead getting into the drinking water here and the change in pH

is
supposed to reduce that. I as told that if the water was harder, the
minerals coat the pipes and reduce the lead.

Anyway, I was surprised by the low value and was wondering if this was the
reason my pines were dying.


************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++



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Old 12-07-2003, 02:44 PM
Craig Cowing
 
Posts: n/a
Default [IBC] Water pH

Anita Hawkins wrote:

snip

Another possibility is that mugos, in my brief experience, and many
friends' reported losses, really dislike simultaneous root and top
work. Try doing only one "half" each year, and see if that less
cavalier approach helps!

snip


Grow well,
Anita


That's been my experience, for sure. I have had three mugo pines, all of them lost
because of inexperience, probably doing just what Anita suggests--working on top
and bottom at the same time.

It's best to learn from the tree what it likes best so that it can live healthy.
Advice from other who have worked on the same species is good too. Rushing things
when they shouldn't be rushed is not good. As with anything else in life, timing
is everything. On the other hand, waiting too long for fear of failure isn't good
either. I have learned a good lesson from my trees--that finding a good balance
between holding back and moving ahead is a very good thing.

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a
Sunset 37

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