GardenBanter.co.uk

GardenBanter.co.uk (https://www.gardenbanter.co.uk/)
-   Bonsai (https://www.gardenbanter.co.uk/bonsai/)
-   -   [IBC] Penjing vs Bonsai (https://www.gardenbanter.co.uk/bonsai/55753-%5Bibc%5D-penjing-vs-bonsai.html)

Nicolas Steenhout 16-03-2004 09:42 AM

[IBC] Penjing vs Bonsai
 
Other than knowing that one is from China, the other Japan, I appear to be
unable to tell just by looking at it which one is which. I have seen many
Penjing (including owning the "world of wonderments"). I have seen many
bonsai.

What would you say would be the top 3 (concrete?) things that define the
difference between Penjing and Bonsai, that would let a relative newbie
identify it?

Cheers

Nic

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Ken Rutledge++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Billy M. Rhodes 16-03-2004 12:32 PM

[IBC] Penjing vs Bonsai
 
In a message dated 3/16/2004 3:13:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
writes:

What would you say would be the top 3 (concrete?) things that define the
difference between Penjing and Bonsai, that would let a relative newbie
identify it?


I would say:
1. if it has figures, mud men, etc. it is Penjing.
2. if it has a lot of landscaping, streams, stones, etc. it is
Penjing.
3. if it has a variety of species of different types such as tall
trees and shorter shrub like plants it is Penjing.

Billy on the Florida Space Coast
BSF Annual Convention May 28 - 31, 2004 Radisson Hotel, Cape Canaveral,
Florida
Sponsored by The Bonsai Society of Brevard and the Treasure Coast Bonsai
Society
http://www.bonsaisocietyofbrevard.org/2004/2004.html

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Ken Rutledge++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Billy M. Rhodes 16-03-2004 12:32 PM

[IBC] Penjing vs Bonsai
 
In a message dated 3/16/2004 3:13:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
writes:

What would you say would be the top 3 (concrete?) things that define the
difference between Penjing and Bonsai, that would let a relative newbie
identify it?


I would say:
1. if it has figures, mud men, etc. it is Penjing.
2. if it has a lot of landscaping, streams, stones, etc. it is
Penjing.
3. if it has a variety of species of different types such as tall
trees and shorter shrub like plants it is Penjing.

Billy on the Florida Space Coast
BSF Annual Convention May 28 - 31, 2004 Radisson Hotel, Cape Canaveral,
Florida
Sponsored by The Bonsai Society of Brevard and the Treasure Coast Bonsai
Society
http://www.bonsaisocietyofbrevard.org/2004/2004.html

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Ken Rutledge++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Billy M. Rhodes 16-03-2004 01:07 PM

[IBC] Penjing vs Bonsai
 
In a message dated 3/16/2004 3:13:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
writes:

What would you say would be the top 3 (concrete?) things that define the
difference between Penjing and Bonsai, that would let a relative newbie
identify it?


I would say:
1. if it has figures, mud men, etc. it is Penjing.
2. if it has a lot of landscaping, streams, stones, etc. it is
Penjing.
3. if it has a variety of species of different types such as tall
trees and shorter shrub like plants it is Penjing.

Billy on the Florida Space Coast
BSF Annual Convention May 28 - 31, 2004 Radisson Hotel, Cape Canaveral,
Florida
Sponsored by The Bonsai Society of Brevard and the Treasure Coast Bonsai
Society
http://www.bonsaisocietyofbrevard.org/2004/2004.html

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Ken Rutledge++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Iris Cohen 16-03-2004 02:34 PM

[IBC] Penjing vs Bonsai
 
1. if it has figures, mud men, etc. it is Penjing.
2. if it has a lot of landscaping, streams, stones, etc. it is Penjing.
3. if it has a variety of species of different types such as tall trees
and shorter shrub like plants it is Penjing.

I beg to differ. Only #1 is true, in the classic sense. Some of us use
figurines in what would otherwise be called saikei.
If you read Kawamoto's book on saikei, you will find that #2 and #3 are
definitely not true. I suggest you go back and read Korashoff. She goes into
detail on the difference between Chinese & Japanese styles. At any rate,
nowadays the distinction is quite blurred.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)

Jim Lewis 16-03-2004 03:56 PM

[IBC] Penjing vs Bonsai
 
In a message dated 3/16/2004 3:13:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
writes:

What would you say would be the top 3 (concrete?) things that

define the
difference between Penjing and Bonsai, that would let a

relative newbie
identify it?


I would say:
1. if it has figures, mud men, etc. it is Penjing.
2. if it has a lot of landscaping, streams, stones, etc.

it is
Penjing.
3. if it has a variety of species of different types

such as tall
trees and shorter shrub like plants it is Penjing.


Billy's definitions are good. He is defining Saikei, also
(except, perhaps, for the mudmen). Saikei, as the Japanese
practice it _usually_ is much "simpler" than the Chinese art --
there aren't so many things going on and, as Billy says, most
often the trees are the same. But not always.

BUT . . .

Penjing also can be individual trees -- what the Japanese call
bonsai. The difference here is harder to describe (for me, at
least) but -- speaking VERY generally -- the Chinese seem to go
more for the odd tree, the one with the tangle of roots, or the
one standing on a stilt of roots, or the one with the twisted
trunk (note all the gyrations that imported Chinese elms have)
and their trees can be a bit unkempt looking to one who is most
familiar with Japanese trees. Taper doesn't seem to be as
important. Neither is branch placement.

Don't get me wrong. Penjing = Bonsai, essentially. Some can be
as manicured and as svelte as the classiest Japanese bonsai.

I heard at a convention that "penjing" essentially means tray
landscape (Ernie?????) and that can include one tree or several,
rocks or no rocks, figures or no figures. The Japanese appear to
have decided that there is some vague difference between bonsai
and saikei. To me, at least, it often isn't clear; we have
forest bonsai. Add rocks and it becomes saikei. But we have
individual bonsai growing on or over a rock and it still is
bonsai.

What it all boils down to in the end is that it really doesn't
matter what you call your creation.

Call them "artichokes" and be done with the terminology question.
;-)

Jim Lewis -
- Tallahassee, FL - Only where
people have learned to appreciate and cherish the landscape and
its living cover will they treat it with the care and respect it
should have - Paul Bigelow Sears.

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Ken Rutledge++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Jim Lewis 16-03-2004 04:29 PM

[IBC] Penjing vs Bonsai
 
In a message dated 3/16/2004 3:13:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
writes:

What would you say would be the top 3 (concrete?) things that

define the
difference between Penjing and Bonsai, that would let a

relative newbie
identify it?


I would say:
1. if it has figures, mud men, etc. it is Penjing.
2. if it has a lot of landscaping, streams, stones, etc.

it is
Penjing.
3. if it has a variety of species of different types

such as tall
trees and shorter shrub like plants it is Penjing.


Billy's definitions are good. He is defining Saikei, also
(except, perhaps, for the mudmen). Saikei, as the Japanese
practice it _usually_ is much "simpler" than the Chinese art --
there aren't so many things going on and, as Billy says, most
often the trees are the same. But not always.

BUT . . .

Penjing also can be individual trees -- what the Japanese call
bonsai. The difference here is harder to describe (for me, at
least) but -- speaking VERY generally -- the Chinese seem to go
more for the odd tree, the one with the tangle of roots, or the
one standing on a stilt of roots, or the one with the twisted
trunk (note all the gyrations that imported Chinese elms have)
and their trees can be a bit unkempt looking to one who is most
familiar with Japanese trees. Taper doesn't seem to be as
important. Neither is branch placement.

Don't get me wrong. Penjing = Bonsai, essentially. Some can be
as manicured and as svelte as the classiest Japanese bonsai.

I heard at a convention that "penjing" essentially means tray
landscape (Ernie?????) and that can include one tree or several,
rocks or no rocks, figures or no figures. The Japanese appear to
have decided that there is some vague difference between bonsai
and saikei. To me, at least, it often isn't clear; we have
forest bonsai. Add rocks and it becomes saikei. But we have
individual bonsai growing on or over a rock and it still is
bonsai.

What it all boils down to in the end is that it really doesn't
matter what you call your creation.

Call them "artichokes" and be done with the terminology question.
;-)

Jim Lewis -
- Tallahassee, FL - Only where
people have learned to appreciate and cherish the landscape and
its living cover will they treat it with the care and respect it
should have - Paul Bigelow Sears.

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Ken Rutledge++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Jim Lewis 16-03-2004 04:29 PM

[IBC] Penjing vs Bonsai
 
In a message dated 3/16/2004 3:13:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
writes:

What would you say would be the top 3 (concrete?) things that

define the
difference between Penjing and Bonsai, that would let a

relative newbie
identify it?


I would say:
1. if it has figures, mud men, etc. it is Penjing.
2. if it has a lot of landscaping, streams, stones, etc.

it is
Penjing.
3. if it has a variety of species of different types

such as tall
trees and shorter shrub like plants it is Penjing.


Billy's definitions are good. He is defining Saikei, also
(except, perhaps, for the mudmen). Saikei, as the Japanese
practice it _usually_ is much "simpler" than the Chinese art --
there aren't so many things going on and, as Billy says, most
often the trees are the same. But not always.

BUT . . .

Penjing also can be individual trees -- what the Japanese call
bonsai. The difference here is harder to describe (for me, at
least) but -- speaking VERY generally -- the Chinese seem to go
more for the odd tree, the one with the tangle of roots, or the
one standing on a stilt of roots, or the one with the twisted
trunk (note all the gyrations that imported Chinese elms have)
and their trees can be a bit unkempt looking to one who is most
familiar with Japanese trees. Taper doesn't seem to be as
important. Neither is branch placement.

Don't get me wrong. Penjing = Bonsai, essentially. Some can be
as manicured and as svelte as the classiest Japanese bonsai.

I heard at a convention that "penjing" essentially means tray
landscape (Ernie?????) and that can include one tree or several,
rocks or no rocks, figures or no figures. The Japanese appear to
have decided that there is some vague difference between bonsai
and saikei. To me, at least, it often isn't clear; we have
forest bonsai. Add rocks and it becomes saikei. But we have
individual bonsai growing on or over a rock and it still is
bonsai.

What it all boils down to in the end is that it really doesn't
matter what you call your creation.

Call them "artichokes" and be done with the terminology question.
;-)

Jim Lewis -
- Tallahassee, FL - Only where
people have learned to appreciate and cherish the landscape and
its living cover will they treat it with the care and respect it
should have - Paul Bigelow Sears.

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Ken Rutledge++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Jim Lewis 16-03-2004 04:34 PM

[IBC] Penjing vs Bonsai
 
In a message dated 3/16/2004 3:13:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
writes:

What would you say would be the top 3 (concrete?) things that

define the
difference between Penjing and Bonsai, that would let a

relative newbie
identify it?


I would say:
1. if it has figures, mud men, etc. it is Penjing.
2. if it has a lot of landscaping, streams, stones, etc.

it is
Penjing.
3. if it has a variety of species of different types

such as tall
trees and shorter shrub like plants it is Penjing.


Billy's definitions are good. He is defining Saikei, also
(except, perhaps, for the mudmen). Saikei, as the Japanese
practice it _usually_ is much "simpler" than the Chinese art --
there aren't so many things going on and, as Billy says, most
often the trees are the same. But not always.

BUT . . .

Penjing also can be individual trees -- what the Japanese call
bonsai. The difference here is harder to describe (for me, at
least) but -- speaking VERY generally -- the Chinese seem to go
more for the odd tree, the one with the tangle of roots, or the
one standing on a stilt of roots, or the one with the twisted
trunk (note all the gyrations that imported Chinese elms have)
and their trees can be a bit unkempt looking to one who is most
familiar with Japanese trees. Taper doesn't seem to be as
important. Neither is branch placement.

Don't get me wrong. Penjing = Bonsai, essentially. Some can be
as manicured and as svelte as the classiest Japanese bonsai.

I heard at a convention that "penjing" essentially means tray
landscape (Ernie?????) and that can include one tree or several,
rocks or no rocks, figures or no figures. The Japanese appear to
have decided that there is some vague difference between bonsai
and saikei. To me, at least, it often isn't clear; we have
forest bonsai. Add rocks and it becomes saikei. But we have
individual bonsai growing on or over a rock and it still is
bonsai.

What it all boils down to in the end is that it really doesn't
matter what you call your creation.

Call them "artichokes" and be done with the terminology question.
;-)

Jim Lewis -
- Tallahassee, FL - Only where
people have learned to appreciate and cherish the landscape and
its living cover will they treat it with the care and respect it
should have - Paul Bigelow Sears.

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Ken Rutledge++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Jim Lewis 16-03-2004 04:56 PM

[IBC] Penjing vs Bonsai
 
In a message dated 3/16/2004 3:13:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
writes:

What would you say would be the top 3 (concrete?) things that

define the
difference between Penjing and Bonsai, that would let a

relative newbie
identify it?


I would say:
1. if it has figures, mud men, etc. it is Penjing.
2. if it has a lot of landscaping, streams, stones, etc.

it is
Penjing.
3. if it has a variety of species of different types

such as tall
trees and shorter shrub like plants it is Penjing.


Billy's definitions are good. He is defining Saikei, also
(except, perhaps, for the mudmen). Saikei, as the Japanese
practice it _usually_ is much "simpler" than the Chinese art --
there aren't so many things going on and, as Billy says, most
often the trees are the same. But not always.

BUT . . .

Penjing also can be individual trees -- what the Japanese call
bonsai. The difference here is harder to describe (for me, at
least) but -- speaking VERY generally -- the Chinese seem to go
more for the odd tree, the one with the tangle of roots, or the
one standing on a stilt of roots, or the one with the twisted
trunk (note all the gyrations that imported Chinese elms have)
and their trees can be a bit unkempt looking to one who is most
familiar with Japanese trees. Taper doesn't seem to be as
important. Neither is branch placement.

Don't get me wrong. Penjing = Bonsai, essentially. Some can be
as manicured and as svelte as the classiest Japanese bonsai.

I heard at a convention that "penjing" essentially means tray
landscape (Ernie?????) and that can include one tree or several,
rocks or no rocks, figures or no figures. The Japanese appear to
have decided that there is some vague difference between bonsai
and saikei. To me, at least, it often isn't clear; we have
forest bonsai. Add rocks and it becomes saikei. But we have
individual bonsai growing on or over a rock and it still is
bonsai.

What it all boils down to in the end is that it really doesn't
matter what you call your creation.

Call them "artichokes" and be done with the terminology question.
;-)

Jim Lewis -
- Tallahassee, FL - Only where
people have learned to appreciate and cherish the landscape and
its living cover will they treat it with the care and respect it
should have - Paul Bigelow Sears.

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Ken Rutledge++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

marty haber 16-03-2004 05:00 PM

[IBC] Penjing vs Bonsai
 
Good question,Nic. I believe the essential difference is the national
character of the two countries. The Chinese translate penjing as "artistic
potted tree", while the Japanese use "tree in a tray (or pot)". It is
almost tantamount to saying that the Japanese feel that one can approach
perfection by following a precise set of rules, while the Chinese place
their emphasis on artistry and are less constrained by rules. Hence we find
less emphasis on taper, one-two-three branch placement, and ramification in
penjing - and more such emphasis in bonsai. This is not to say that the
Chinese ignore the rules all together. In fact, there is much
cross-pollinization between the two cultures. I urge you to compare the
photos of Wu Yee-Sun in his "Man Lung Garden Artistic Pot Plants" with
those of Mr. Masahiko Kimura in "The Bonsai Art Of Kimura" to see for
yourself what I'm trying to say. There is no distinct line of demarkation
between the two styles, but there is a definite difference of approach.
Therefore, I cannot, in all honesty, give you a three-point answer to your
question. We, in the Occidental world, have the privilege of drawing upon
both cultures in developing our own artistic standards.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nicolas Steenhout"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 3:10 AM
Subject: [IBC] Penjing vs Bonsai


Other than knowing that one is from China, the other Japan, I appear to be
unable to tell just by looking at it which one is which. I have seen many
Penjing (including owning the "world of wonderments"). I have seen many
bonsai.

What would you say would be the top 3 (concrete?) things that define the
difference between Penjing and Bonsai, that would let a relative newbie
identify it?

Cheers

Nic


************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by Ken Rutledge++++

************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Ken Rutledge++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

marty haber 16-03-2004 06:37 PM

[IBC] Penjing vs Bonsai
 
Good question,Nic. I believe the essential difference is the national
character of the two countries. The Chinese translate penjing as "artistic
potted tree", while the Japanese use "tree in a tray (or pot)". It is
almost tantamount to saying that the Japanese feel that one can approach
perfection by following a precise set of rules, while the Chinese place
their emphasis on artistry and are less constrained by rules. Hence we find
less emphasis on taper, one-two-three branch placement, and ramification in
penjing - and more such emphasis in bonsai. This is not to say that the
Chinese ignore the rules all together. In fact, there is much
cross-pollinization between the two cultures. I urge you to compare the
photos of Wu Yee-Sun in his "Man Lung Garden Artistic Pot Plants" with
those of Mr. Masahiko Kimura in "The Bonsai Art Of Kimura" to see for
yourself what I'm trying to say. There is no distinct line of demarkation
between the two styles, but there is a definite difference of approach.
Therefore, I cannot, in all honesty, give you a three-point answer to your
question. We, in the Occidental world, have the privilege of drawing upon
both cultures in developing our own artistic standards.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nicolas Steenhout"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 3:10 AM
Subject: [IBC] Penjing vs Bonsai


Other than knowing that one is from China, the other Japan, I appear to be
unable to tell just by looking at it which one is which. I have seen many
Penjing (including owning the "world of wonderments"). I have seen many
bonsai.

What would you say would be the top 3 (concrete?) things that define the
difference between Penjing and Bonsai, that would let a relative newbie
identify it?

Cheers

Nic


************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by Ken Rutledge++++

************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Ken Rutledge++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

marty haber 16-03-2004 07:02 PM

[IBC] Penjing vs Bonsai
 
Good question,Nic. I believe the essential difference is the national
character of the two countries. The Chinese translate penjing as "artistic
potted tree", while the Japanese use "tree in a tray (or pot)". It is
almost tantamount to saying that the Japanese feel that one can approach
perfection by following a precise set of rules, while the Chinese place
their emphasis on artistry and are less constrained by rules. Hence we find
less emphasis on taper, one-two-three branch placement, and ramification in
penjing - and more such emphasis in bonsai. This is not to say that the
Chinese ignore the rules all together. In fact, there is much
cross-pollinization between the two cultures. I urge you to compare the
photos of Wu Yee-Sun in his "Man Lung Garden Artistic Pot Plants" with
those of Mr. Masahiko Kimura in "The Bonsai Art Of Kimura" to see for
yourself what I'm trying to say. There is no distinct line of demarkation
between the two styles, but there is a definite difference of approach.
Therefore, I cannot, in all honesty, give you a three-point answer to your
question. We, in the Occidental world, have the privilege of drawing upon
both cultures in developing our own artistic standards.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nicolas Steenhout"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 3:10 AM
Subject: [IBC] Penjing vs Bonsai


Other than knowing that one is from China, the other Japan, I appear to be
unable to tell just by looking at it which one is which. I have seen many
Penjing (including owning the "world of wonderments"). I have seen many
bonsai.

What would you say would be the top 3 (concrete?) things that define the
difference between Penjing and Bonsai, that would let a relative newbie
identify it?

Cheers

Nic


************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by Ken Rutledge++++

************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Ken Rutledge++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Steve wachs 17-03-2004 01:58 AM

[IBC] Penjing vs Bonsai
 
Penjing and Bonsai have basically the same translation. Penjing being Chinese and Bonsai Japanese. The style differs in the sense that Penjing uses more rock plantings and gives more detail to the bare wood and roots than the Japanese which is more restr
icted to the balance between all the components of a Bonsai tree. e.g trunk branches and pot.
this is how i learned about Penjing. I believe there is a sight somewhere on The Shanghai Gardens in Hong Kong. that stresses what is referred to as Penjing. A very impressive display
SteveW
Long Island NY

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Ken Rutledge++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Steve wachs 17-03-2004 02:01 AM

[IBC] Penjing vs Bonsai
 
Penjing and Bonsai have basically the same translation. Penjing being Chinese and Bonsai Japanese. The style differs in the sense that Penjing uses more rock plantings and gives more detail to the bare wood and roots than the Japanese which is more restr
icted to the balance between all the components of a Bonsai tree. e.g trunk branches and pot.
this is how i learned about Penjing. I believe there is a sight somewhere on The Shanghai Gardens in Hong Kong. that stresses what is referred to as Penjing. A very impressive display
SteveW
Long Island NY

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Ken Rutledge++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:01 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
GardenBanter