Theo - I wasn't pouncing on you, but yes, if I took it/responded the
wrong way, I apologise. You talk about "basic knowledge" though. I have
to start somewhere - a lot of people in here are insistent this is the
wrong way to go about it. I disagree - time will tell.

Someone said the internet *and* books can be a bad way to learn - I
agree that someone showing you how to do things is much preferable, but
I don't have that luxury, so I'm doing the best I can with the
resources available. As I said before, time will tell.

As for collecting wild - alas, I have no "experienced teacher" to learn
from. As I said before, I like to jump in at the deep end - I'll try
something from the wild if I can find a suitable species, and I'll see
how I go.

Many thanks once again for the advice - I am trying to learn. I would
like to say, however, that some of you have a rather negative attitude,
especially since, IMHO, as experienced (I assume) boinsaiers , I would
have thought you would have been glad that someone new is showing a
keen interest in the art. Several of you keep bemoaning the fact (or so
it seems to be implied) that I am looking for "quick answers", a "quick
fix", or that I'm somehow undermining your own time taken to learn by
asking direct questions and not experienceing things for myself. I
think you have to open your eyes to the fact that to learn, I HAVE TO
START *SOMEWHERE*. So here I am, starting out, like it or not. Jim
said (and I'm not knocking you here Jim - I appreaciate the help) "Once
your questions move from the shotgun to the rifle (general to the
targeted) we can be of tremendous help. Until then, you are asking for
a 500-page book on plant propagation to be typed out for you by
someone. (?!)". I put this to you - how can I ask "targetted" questions

without any experience? And no, I'm not asking for anyone to write me a
book on propogation as you put it, just general, helpful advice for a
beginner. Ie, "most seeds will need a couple of months in the fridge
with damp vermiculite in a baggie" is incredibly helpful. Telling me I
need to start somewhere else, is not.
Regards, and no offence intended,
DSt.

On 28 Jan 2005 at 6:44, synex wrote:

Theo - I wasn't pouncing on you, but yes, if I took it/responded the
wrong way, I apologise. You talk about "basic knowledge" though. I have
to start somewhere - a lot of people in here are insistent this is the
wrong way to go about it. I disagree - time will tell.


You ask for advice. You get it. You reject it. Why expect any
MORE advice?


Someone said the internet *and* books can be a bad way to learn - I
agree that someone showing you how to do things is much preferable, but
I don't have that luxury, so I'm doing the best I can with the
resources available. As I said before, time will tell.

You live alone somewhere? in a cave, with no one living within
100 miles?


As for collecting wild - alas, I have no "experienced teacher" to learn
from. As I said before, I like to jump in at the deep end - I'll try
something from the wild if I can find a suitable species, and I'll see
how I go.

As far as I am concerned, that is environmentally unacceptable
behavior. If you don't know how to collect a tree it WILL die.
Guaranteed.

Maybe you need to make a little effort to find a club or
someone. Growers of bonsai are more common than you think.


Many thanks once again for the advice - I am trying to learn. I would
like to say, however, that some of you have a rather negative attitude,
especially since, IMHO, as experienced (I assume) boinsaiers , I would
have thought you would have been glad that someone new is showing a
keen interest in the art. Several of you keep bemoaning the fact (or so
it seems to be implied) that I am looking for "quick answers", a "quick
fix", or that I'm somehow undermining your own time taken to learn by
asking direct questions and not experienceing things for myself. I
think you have to open your eyes to the fact that to learn, I HAVE TO
START *SOMEWHERE*. So here I am, starting out, like it or not. Jim
said (and I'm not knocking you here Jim - I appreaciate the help) "Once
your questions move from the shotgun to the rifle (general to the
targeted) we can be of tremendous help. Until then, you are asking for
a 500-page book on plant propagation to be typed out for you by
someone. (?!)". I put this to you - how can I ask "targetted" questions

Find a book of plant propagation. There are several. Google
for info on "cuttings" (as a start). Try a garden web site if
you MUST learn from the web.

But SURELY there is a garden club somewhere in your nearby area
(unless you live in Antarctica. Join it. (Or find a little
old lady who has been gardening for 50 years.) Get to know the
people. Growing flowers and veggies is quite similar to bonsai
in some respects, and gardeners have shrubbery that the grow
from cuttings and layering and other means. Some of the them
may even do a bonsai or two. Anyway, the garden club can get
you started, with LOCAL information. We/I can not do that.

Nor can we SHOW you how to cut a cutting, do an air layer, etc.,
except in the most general sense. Someone in the garden club
can do that.

without any experience? And no, I'm not asking for anyone to write me a
book on propogation as you put it, just general, helpful advice for a
beginner. Ie, "most seeds will need a couple of months in the fridge
with damp vermiculite in a baggie" is incredibly helpful.

But "MOST SEEDS" tells you absolutely nothing. The seeds you
have may not BE "most seeds." Some may need to be cold
stratified for X days, then set in a warm place for Y days. Or
vice versa. Others may need to have their seed capsule nicked.
Some are even bathed in a weak acid. Some have to be planted as
soon as they are harvested or they will never germinate. It is
NOT one size-fits all.


Telling me I need to start somewhere else, is not.

Ah, but it should be, if you're willing to listen.

Telling us that your're gonna grow from seed and damn the
torpedos and full speed ahead also isn't too "helpful." You're
asking us to assure you of something for which we cannot offer
you any real assurance.

Sorry you're unhappy with us. We do try to help. That's what
we're here for. But you need to help us help you and at least
make us think you're trying to help yourself.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - When we see
land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it
with love and respect - Aldo Leopold - A Sand County Almanac

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

On Jan 28, 2005, at 4:08 PM, Jim Lewis wrote:

On 28 Jan 2005 at 6:44, synex wrote:

Theo - I wasn't pouncing on you, but yes, if I took it/responded the
wrong way, I apologise. You talk about "basic knowledge" though. I
have
to start somewhere - a lot of people in here are insistent this is the
wrong way to go about it. I disagree - time will tell.


You ask for advice. You get it. You reject it. Why expect any
MORE advice?



Someone said the internet *and* books can be a bad way to learn

As I read the responses, I didn't hear anyone saying that the internet
and books were a bad way to learn. Quite the opposite--it is an
excellent way to start. But a person needs to go beyond that. As I
understood Jim's point about this, anyone can post something on a
website that is totally inaccurate. Any monkey with a modem and
computer can put up a website. In the same way, there are bonsai books
which give erroneous advice. The point was to be discerning and get a
consensus on where to start.


snip


As for collecting wild - alas, I have no "experienced teacher" to
learn
from. As I said before, I like to jump in at the deep end - I'll try
something from the wild if I can find a suitable species, and I'll see
how I go.

As far as I am concerned, that is environmentally unacceptable
behavior. If you don't know how to collect a tree it WILL die.
Guaranteed.


You've got a tremendous resource for collecting in the wild right on
this list--for that matter, on any aspect of bonsai. Any one of a
number of people on the list, if they can't help you in person, could
tell you how to collect a tree. I've collected dozens and dozens of
trees. Certainly over a hundred at this point. Depending on the
species I can help. There are many on the list in the UK who can give
you detailed directions.

Maybe you need to make a little effort to find a club or
someone. Growers of bonsai are more common than you think.


Many thanks once again for the advice - I am trying to learn.

Experience is certainly a good thing. Five years ago I was in the
same situation as you, wanting to learn. I came on the list after
having bought a mallsai and one book, wondering why my juniper that I
kept indoors died. There are a few curmudgeons on the list who forget
that they too were wondering why their first mallsai juniper died after
they kept it indoors. ;0}

snip

Telling me I need to start somewhere else, is not.

Ah, but it should be, if you're willing to listen.

Telling us that your're gonna grow from seed and damn the
torpedos and full speed ahead also isn't too "helpful." You're
asking us to assure you of something for which we cannot offer
you any real assurance.

Jim's right here, although his tone is rather strident. Let me offer an
illustration from my line of work. As a pastor I do weddings. The
first thing I have the wedding party do in the rehearsal the night
before is to start at the end. I line them up in the front of the
church as they will be standing when they process up the aisle. They
are puzzled at first but I ask them to trust me, that I know what I'm
doing. They realize when I send them down back to rehearse the
processional that they know where they're going when they get up front.
So it is with bonsai. When you're first learning it's better to start
on something already further along in development so you'll understand
how to take a tree from seedling to bonsai, if that's your goal. I
realize it's a romantic thing to think about starting your first tree
from seed, but the reality is that you're going to wait an awfully long
time before you can do much of anything with it.

snip

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - When we see
land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it
with love and respect - Aldo Leopold - A Sand County Almanac


Don't give up too easily. Also, be willing to at least consider being
pointed in a direction you may not have thought of. It's the best way
to learn.

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

HI Jim
I started doing bonsai 27 years ago
and internet did not exist and I bought Remy Samson book as it was
the only one available in french , I did not follow any tuition or club
as tehy were 60 kilometers away and my sworking schedule as
independent and my family did not allow me to do so ..
I did not stat growing from seeds as I stared by mere curiosity when
kid growin pine seeds and they died at repotting ( how many things I
ingnored when kid ) but I did not forgot the experience
I bought two main trees at teh evry beginning
ma over 60 years old pentaphilla and a actually 45 years old deshojo
maple , ( I coudl efford some expenses by then , and both are still
alive 27 years later and I coudl do it only by myself and reading
readin g reading my books until I could develope a sense of what to do
and following the directives they gave ..
I started 3 years ago some maple seedlings , beside of the fact that
seedlings are often sligtly different from parent trees when taken on
the wild ,and Palmatum maples are always mixing and producing new
varieties , I realized how is long and and difficult to grow
and shape a very young ana vigorous plant even if with all teh
knowledge..
this is why I always advice newbies in bonsai to start with some
gratifing and easy growing plant like punica granatum .. for those who
live in a suitable climate for them of course , just to learn the art
of bonsai and apply techniques or a fosythia or a jasminun mudiflorum
pyracanta beberis or taxus baccata or small azaleas that are often
sold by cheap in malls

there are so many varieties easy growing even in cold climates that
are easy to grow and to make gratifying experiences ..

But most of newbes are focused on the myth of seedlings as the best
way to see a tree growing .. and always choose Oaks , pines or olive
trees !!!!!
I wonder why !
I rememeber the first year I started with bonsai I almost made a
depression in realizing how slow they grow and that a mistake would
take years to be rectified .. anyway time will teach them the reality


Jim Lewis wrote:

On 28 Jan 2005 at 6:44, synex wrote:


Theo - I wasn't pouncing on you, but yes, if I took it/responded the
wrong way, I apologise. You talk about "basic knowledge" though. I have
to start somewhere - a lot of people in here are insistent this is the
wrong way to go about it. I disagree - time will tell.



You ask for advice. You get it. You reject it. Why expect any
MORE advice?


Someone said the internet *and* books can be a bad way to learn - I
agree that someone showing you how to do things is much preferable, but
I don't have that luxury, so I'm doing the best I can with the
resources available. As I said before, time will tell.


You live alone somewhere? in a cave, with no one living within
100 miles?


As for collecting wild - alas, I have no "experienced teacher" to learn
from. As I said before, I like to jump in at the deep end - I'll try
something from the wild if I can find a suitable species, and I'll see
how I go.


As far as I am concerned, that is environmentally unacceptable
behavior. If you don't know how to collect a tree it WILL die.
Guaranteed.

Maybe you need to make a little effort to find a club or
someone. Growers of bonsai are more common than you think.


Many thanks once again for the advice - I am trying to learn. I would
like to say, however, that some of you have a rather negative attitude,
especially since, IMHO, as experienced (I assume) boinsaiers , I would
have thought you would have been glad that someone new is showing a
keen interest in the art. Several of you keep bemoaning the fact (or so
it seems to be implied) that I am looking for "quick answers", a "quick
fix", or that I'm somehow undermining your own time taken to learn by
asking direct questions and not experienceing things for myself. I
think you have to open your eyes to the fact that to learn, I HAVE TO
START *SOMEWHERE*. So here I am, starting out, like it or not. Jim
said (and I'm not knocking you here Jim - I appreaciate the help) "Once
your questions move from the shotgun to the rifle (general to the
targeted) we can be of tremendous help. Until then, you are asking for
a 500-page book on plant propagation to be typed out for you by
someone. (?!)". I put this to you - how can I ask "targetted" questions


Find a book of plant propagation. There are several. Google
for info on "cuttings" (as a start). Try a garden web site if
you MUST learn from the web.

But SURELY there is a garden club somewhere in your nearby area
(unless you live in Antarctica. Join it. (Or find a little
old lady who has been gardening for 50 years.) Get to know the
people. Growing flowers and veggies is quite similar to bonsai
in some respects, and gardeners have shrubbery that the grow
from cuttings and layering and other means. Some of the them
may even do a bonsai or two. Anyway, the garden club can get
you started, with LOCAL information. We/I can not do that.

Nor can we SHOW you how to cut a cutting, do an air layer, etc.,
except in the most general sense. Someone in the garden club
can do that.


without any experience? And no, I'm not asking for anyone to write me a
book on propogation as you put it, just general, helpful advice for a
beginner. Ie, "most seeds will need a couple of months in the fridge
with damp vermiculite in a baggie" is incredibly helpful.


But "MOST SEEDS" tells you absolutely nothing. The seeds you
have may not BE "most seeds." Some may need to be cold
stratified for X days, then set in a warm place for Y days. Or
vice versa. Others may need to have their seed capsule nicked.
Some are even bathed in a weak acid. Some have to be planted as
soon as they are harvested or they will never germinate. It is
NOT one size-fits all.



Telling me I need to start somewhere else, is not.


Ah, but it should be, if you're willing to listen.

Telling us that your're gonna grow from seed and damn the
torpedos and full speed ahead also isn't too "helpful." You're
asking us to assure you of something for which we cannot offer
you any real assurance.

Sorry you're unhappy with us. We do try to help. That's what
we're here for. But you need to help us help you and at least
make us think you're trying to help yourself.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - When we see
land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it
with love and respect - Aldo Leopold - A Sand County Almanac

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page++++
************************************************** ******************************

-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

--
MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4
Private Mail :
«»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«»

HI Craig
Craig Cowing wrote:

On Jan 28, 2005, at 4:08 PM, Jim Lewis wrote:

On 28 Jan 2005 at 6:44, synex wrote:

Theo - I wasn't pouncing on you, but yes, if I took it/responded the
wrong way, I apologise. You talk about "basic knowledge" though. I have
to start somewhere - a lot of people in here are insistent this is the
wrong way to go about it. I disagree - time will tell.



You ask for advice. You get it. You reject it. Why expect any
MORE advice?



Someone said the internet *and* books can be a bad way to learn


As I read the responses, I didn't hear anyone saying that the internet
and books were a bad way to learn. Quite the opposite--it is an
excellent way to start.
I said so !
I use internet myself to find out some detailed answer that I can
retrive only as I know the basic knowledge
but without the basic know how
internet is only growing lot of confusion in your mind
as Jim said there are many "IF " in growing bonsai according the
situation you are facing .. and also teh maturity and common sense of
the person that is reading the web pages

For the basic information is always useful IMHO for a newbe to have
them from a valuable source of a well known and experienced bonsai
grower written book ..

You can read it as many times as you want and think until you
correctly undestand what the writer ment ... you can check it in few
seconds to find and compare the desease explained and the other on
your tree..
not mentioning the trimming repotting varieties of soils and so on

The ideal way to learn bonsai should be books experience and tuitions
in a club .. all the 3 but when you do not have all tehse
opportunities you start from teh basics
your books and your neurones.. and than the net
I have friends that know very little about bonsai but have skills
in programmations and they made their *own * bonsai site grasping
informations from wherever and frankly are often quite ridiculus ..
reading an information from the net is not a garantee that is a real
and valuable information unless comes from a very well know person like
some we have here in the NG



MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4
Private Mail :
«»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«»