Hi all,

I'm looking to start a few Bonsai from seed (I know you'll all tell me
this is a bad idea, but I like to jump in at the deep end, and learn as
much as I can the hard way). Now, I've been reading a lot of helpful
guides on Bonsai growing, but most seem to be geared towards growing
Bonsai in slightly warmer climes than my own (I'm in Scotland, UK). I'm
wondering if I should take any special precautions before I begin
because of this. Namely:

- When should I plant the seeds? I was thinking May...
- Any tips on the kind of soil to plant seedlings in?
- Should I grow the seedlings in any kind of incubator, or is a small
tray enough? Even in summer, it can get fairly cold here (10 deg
celsius or lower at night)
- Should I feed or just water seedlings?
- How long should I give the seedlings before I move them outdoors?
Should I move them outdoors at all, or keep them inside to protect them
from the weather?
- If I'm moving them outdoors, any tips on media to transplant them
into?
- When Winter arrives (which I'm sure it will), should I move them
indoors, or put them in some kind of cold frame?


Any more tips on growing in the UK by anyone with experience would be
greatly appreciated. I know these plants take years to grow before work
can begin, bit IMHO, that's part of the fun. I do plan on buying a
cheap plant to practice my pruning on.

Many thanks,
DSt.

synex wrote:
I'm looking to start a few Bonsai from seed

There's the easy way and the more complicated way. The easy way is to
plant seeds in some pots in fall and let them spend the winter outside.
That way, they get their cold requirement the old-fashioned natural
way, and they germinate in spring when they ought to. If you do
anything else, you risk having delicate seedlings at the wrong time of
year (for instance, you're just asking for problems if you germinate
maples during the winter and have to keep tiny seedlings alive until
spring). However, if you're trying to grow something that's not
Scotland-hardy, you have no choice but to go the other route, which is
to stratify the seeds according to the directions you can get in a book
like Dirr's "Reference manual of woody plant propagation". Right now
I'm studying Viburnum, and I need a bunch of seedlings of different
species. So I have a refrigerator at 4 C and an incubator at 20 C, and
I follow the directions on how to treat the seeds (soak for 24 hr, or
abrade to break the seed coat), then I put the seeds in moist
vermiculite in a closed container (a ziplock baggie would be fine; I
use Petri plates) and store them so many months at warm temperature and
so many months at cold temperature, and then plant them (I have access
to a greenhouse, luckily). I've been planting straight into turface,
which is working fine since I have an overhead mist system. If you
don't have something like that, you need to use a plastic-covered
seedling starter kit (in which case, beware of moldy conditions)or a
heavier potting mix (beware of damping-off). You may also want to
invest in a bottom heat mat, since seedlings germinating into cold soil
will be slow-growing and susceptible to damping off.

Nina

Well,a lot depends on what you want to grow from seed. Some such as hawthorn, whitebeam, i.e trees with berries, require stratification. That is the seed will not normally germinate until the hard seed coat has been softened by an outside influence. The natural way is for birds to eat the fruit, seed and all, the evacuate the seed onto our clean washing which, if it falls onto moist soil, may germinate.(the seed that is, not the washing)
Another way is the seed gets exposed to heavy frost which breaks the shell and lets water in.
We can do this ourselves by putting the seeds in the fridge for a few weeks or months,depending on the species, or putting them in a pot of sand and leaving the pot outside all winter. This takes longer of course but as the year wakes up (soon please!) the seeds break dormancy and grow!

Of course having posted the above you're probably wanting to grow seeds from Field maple (simple enough, just like regular seeds in a pot now) or pine which cant be grown from cutings by the layman. I've not had experience with pine seeds(well, Ive had one bad experience) but I'm sure theres plenty on here that have!

hope this small book helps,
Larry

On Jan 25, 2005, at 12:18 PM, synex wrote:

Hi all,

I'm looking to start a few Bonsai from seed (I know you'll all tell me
this is a bad idea, but I like to jump in at the deep end, and learn as
much as I can the hard way). snip

If you're looking for a way to learn patience you've picked the
hardest. Nobody on the list would say that it's a bad idea to start
trees from seed. However, if it's the only way you're going to
cultivate bonsai you'll have a very long wait.

Any more tips on growing in the UK by anyone with experience would be
greatly appreciated. I know these plants take years to grow before work
can begin, bit IMHO, that's part of the fun. I do plan on buying a
cheap plant to practice my pruning on.

Many thanks,
DSt.

Buy a few junipers and learn how to style. You won't learn anything
about styling by watching seedlings grow.

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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synex wrote:

Hi all,

I'm looking to start a few Bonsai from seed (I know you'll all tell me
this is a bad idea, but I like to jump in at the deep end, and learn as
much as I can the hard way).
you learn the same and quicker starting at mid way with a pre- bonsai ..
startzing with seedling is just a lost of time..
do you think all people exibiting nice bonsai in houndreds of fairs
all over the world started with seedlings when kids ?

Now, I've been reading a lot of helpful
guides on Bonsai growing, but most seem to be geared towards growing
Bonsai in slightly warmer climes than my own (I'm in Scotland, UK). I'm
wondering if I should take any special precautions before I begin
because of this. Namely:

Read Thomlinson .. he is a British citizen so he know what grows in
your climate

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It is not a bad idea to grow plants for Bonsai from seeds. The one most
significant factor in making a Bonsai is, TONS of PATIENCE. And if you plan
making these from seeds, well you need TONS x TONS of patience! (easier
said than done).
Buying a potential Bonsai plant from a nursery or collecting it from the
field is to save on time, which is more precious than the amount one spends
on buying. In fact one buys nursery-men's TIME at a very cheap rate.
However one can (should) grow seeds of those species which are not available
in the nearby nurseries and garden centers.

All the best!

Anil Kaushik
Bonsai Club (India)
Chandigarh "The City Beautiful"

----- Original Message -----
From: "synex"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 10:48 PM
Subject: [IBC] Growing Bonsai in the UK (help for a beginner)


Hi all,

I'm looking to start a few Bonsai from seed (I know you'll all tell me
this is a bad idea, but I like to jump in at the deep end, and learn as
much as I can the hard way). Now, I've been reading a lot of helpful
guides on Bonsai growing, but most seem to be geared towards growing
Bonsai in slightly warmer climes than my own (I'm in Scotland, UK). I'm
wondering if I should take any special precautions before I
begin............

Many thanks,
DSt.

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Anil Kaushik wrote:

It is not a bad idea to grow plants for Bonsai from seeds. The one most
significant factor in making a Bonsai is, TONS of PATIENCE. And if you plan
making these from seeds, well you need TONS x TONS of patience! (easier
said than done).
Buying a potential Bonsai plant from a nursery or collecting it from the
field is to save on time, which is more precious than the amount one spends
on buying. In fact one buys nursery-men's TIME at a very cheap rate.
However one can (should) grow seeds of those species which are not available
in the nearby nurseries and garden centers.

Great Master like Kyuzo Murata advice to start with pre bonsai
it is more fun and you can laern quicker ..
of course in Japan exists is a whole section of the economy based on
that, so you can find bonsai in quite different degrees and quality
suitable to your taste and purse
I personally bought lovely maples in nursery for a cheap price and
in 4 years become lovely specimens ..
seed or not seed it is the know how and time that will make a bonsai ,
from seeds .is in my personal opinion, far more complicate
especially when you are a beginner as you have no idea of what and whow
to do and which result you will get by your actions moreover a new
born planta is more delicate until has a developed root apapratus and
bonsai technicque are not applicaple for the first 2 -3 years at least
on deciduous .. on pines it takes 10 time more
When you buy in a nursery you know what you buy as you see what you
buy ,from seedlings the genes change so often you have a nice surprise
or a bad surprise... the best way in this case is to make grafting ..
the miracle to make teh *instant bonsai* has not been invented yet one
of the main tools to make bonsai is patience
and sorry but the person that has a nursery live on that as the pot
makers live on that and you earn your money your way !

if you decide to take out time from your business to make a bonsai
and pots and tools to avoid spending money with shops, it will cost you
far more than buying things properly made for that
each of us has to do his business..
sorry for this ranting but when needed is needed
we all love to have free the knowledge some of us acquired spending
HIS time to get it !

Cheers





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Private Mail :
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All,

Many thanks for the advice. You've given me some good help. I will look
at the books recommended, as learning is paramount for me. Several
things though - I did state that I was going to get a small shrub to
"practice" on, and I will. Secondly, growing from seed is something
that will happen for me, so why spend 5 years learning how to
prune/style a tree, and *then* put some seeds in the ground to have to
wait another 2-3 years when I can plant these now and practice on a
shrub at the same time? That means I learn about growing from seed as
well as learning about fully-grown plants. Incidentally, if anyone can
recommend somewhere in the UK which will sell me a reasonably-sized,
healthy bonsai, I would appreciate it. Most of the nurseries that do
supply Bonsai will not move them by post, and are a little far away for
me. Finally, to the peron that said "we all love to have free the
knowledge some of us acquired spending
HIS time to get it !" - I *AM* spending time to acquire knowledge,
that's my purpose of being here. It's not about getting the most
information for the least amount of work, which is what you seem to
imply. The internet is a rich resource, and I am using it.
Many thanks, once again, all. I'll let you know how things go...

DSt.

Incidentally - is it worth my while heading out into the wild and
trying to pick up some young trees? Obviosuly things like Scot's Pine
and other attractive trees will be available in my area - but if they
haven't been attended to from the beginning, will they be worth working
on?

And another question I forgot to ask - someone mentioned the "natural"
germination - leaving them out in the frost and gradually progressing
into summer. Would this be worth trying now? And if so, do I just put
them straight into the ground and let them fend for themselves? Bearing
in mind it's getting several degrees below zero, at the moment.

synex wrote:

All,

Many thanks for the advice. You've given me some good help. I will look
at the books recommended, as learning is paramount for me. Several
things though - I did state that I was going to get a small shrub to
"practice" on, and I will. Secondly, growing from seed is something
that will happen for me, so why spend 5 years learning how to
prune/style a tree, and *then* put some seeds in the ground to have to
wait another 2-3 years when I can plant these now and practice on a
shrub at the same time? That means I learn about growing from seed as
well as learning about fully-grown plants. Incidentally, if anyone can
recommend somewhere in the UK which will sell me a reasonably-sized,
healthy bonsai,

HI read first and learn ..
from now to spring you have enough time to have teh ideas more clear
about ..
the Thomlinson books gives also the species that are suitable for a
bonsai and how to choose them according some rules
not all trees are suitable and some are more suitable tha others
to try to explain all in few mails will only lead you intop a big
confusion
reading a book you'll see your preferences in matter of trees and teh
eventual difficulties involved .. and with time you'll see more and more
clear and make your own choices


I would appreciate it. Most of the nurseries that do
supply Bonsai will not move them by post, and are a little far away for
me. Finally, to the peron that said "we all love to have free the
knowledge some of us acquired spending
HIS time to get it !" -
I said so ! and I was talking of the time that people has spent
to make out of the Bonsai a profession ,and a living
it was not direct to you anyway

I *AM* spending time to acquire knowledge,
we all do, did, will do in future
that's my purpose of being here. It's not about getting the most
information for the least amount of work, which is what you seem to
imply.

you might have receptioned it this way , it was not my intention , but
unfortunately, as I am on 4 different NG spanish italian english and
french , I realized this is a sad reality
The internet is a rich resource, and I am using it.
Many thanks, once again, all. I'll let you know how things go...

Intenet is useless unless you know the basic know how ...
can be a rich complement though!
I am doing bonsai since 27 years before internet existed and some
people even far more than I.. and we all learned and still learn but
without the basic knowledge internet will make a big mess in your mind...
but a do as you please..



MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4
Private Mail :
«»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«»

On 26 Jan 2005 at 13:47, Theo wrote:


Intenet is useless unless you know the basic know how ...
can be a rich complement though!
I am doing bonsai since 27 years before internet existed and some
people even far more than I.. and we all learned and still learn but
without the basic knowledge internet will make a big mess in your mind...
but a do as you please..


Theo may have overstated the case, but I tend to agree with him;
the Internet a a very haphazard -- even spastic -- way to learn
anything. Studies have shown that retention of material read on
the I'net is much lower than material read from a printed page;
hypotheses are that in a book or magazine, you can easily thumb
back a page or two to find a definition, or clarify some past
info, but with the net -- even with hyperlinks -- it's harder to
find the exact spot for something you'd read earlier. (shrug)

I'd even go a bit farther and say that books alone also are a
damned poor way to learn bonsai. I've put a little essay on our
Knowledge Base that outlines how researchers have determined
people learn things. It is from before the WWW blossomed, but
other studies (above) have filled in the gap.

(And before someone chortles "But you just told us how crappy
the I'net was for learning and now YOU've put something there?"
I'll reply that it only proves my point. ANYONE can put stuff
up on the I'net. It's reader beware. ;-)

GOTO:
http://internetbonsaiclub.org/knowle...articles/misc/

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - "IF YOU'VE
SEEN ONE REDWOOD TREE, YOU'VE SEEN THEM ALL."
- Forestry expert, Ronald Reagan

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************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

On 26 Jan 2005 at 3:39, synex wrote:

Incidentally - is it worth my while heading out into the wild and
trying to pick up some young trees? Obviosuly things like Scot's Pine
and other attractive trees will be available in my area - but if they
haven't been attended to from the beginning, will they be worth working
on?


Arguably, the best bonsai are from collected material. But you
only collect material that has potential because you cannot
change the basic shape of a mature plant -- dwarfed or not --
and why bother to dig young material?

How do you recognize the potential in a scraggly, runted tree?
Experience. Neophyte collectors should go with experienced
bonsaiests the first few times out.

ONLY collect with PERMISSION of landowner. (Unless you're happy
in jail.)

And another question I forgot to ask - someone mentioned the "natural"
germination - leaving them out in the frost and gradually progressing
into summer. Would this be worth trying now? And if so, do I just put
them straight into the ground and let them fend for themselves? Bearing
in mind it's getting several degrees below zero, at the moment.

As with some many things in the bonsai world, "it depends."

You are asking questions whose answers properly are learned
after formal training and years of experience. It will depend
upon the species. It will depend on how fresh the seeds are.
It will depend on your climate. it will depend on your
experience. It will depend on you ability to tend the seeds, it
will depend on . . . the list of "depends" is almost endless.
There is no one-size-fits-all answer.

Except, for someone with as little apparent experience as you
have at present, "no."

This is yet ANOTHER example of how the I'net is a poor place to
learn bonsai (or, more properly here, horticultural) techniques
from scratch. Once your questions move from the shotgun to the
rifle (general to the targeted) we can be of tremendous help.
Until then, you are asking for a 500-page book on plant
propagation to be typed out for you by someone. (?!)

You need to find a local bonsai club and pick up a local mentor
who can guide you though the plants that grow where you live in
your climate, etc.

Sorry to be so blunt, but . . .

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature
encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson

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************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

IF you are stuck in an area with no bonsai club or studio to learn at, do
try the
following books:
John Naka's Bonsai Techniques I and II
American Bonsai Society Correspondence Course by Tom Zane
David De Groot' s Bonsai Design ( Through American Bonsai Society)
These can these you the basics and are thoroughly tested and have great
information.
But all in all you MUST get seasonal information and local species
information from
people in your area.
Keep growing
Pauline F Muth Zone 4 West Charlton NY USA
www.pfmbonsai.com




-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club ]On Behalf
Of Jim Lewis
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 9:38 AM
To:
Subject: [IBC] Growing Bonsai in the UK (help for a beginner)


On 26 Jan 2005 at 13:47, Theo wrote:


Intenet is useless unless you know the basic know how ...
can be a rich complement though!
I am doing bonsai since 27 years before internet existed and some
people even far more than I.. and we all learned and still learn but
without the basic knowledge internet will make a big mess in your
mind...
but a do as you please..


Theo may have overstated the case, but I tend to agree with him;
the Internet a a very haphazard -- even spastic -- way to learn
anything. Studies have shown that retention of material read on
the I'net is much lower than material read from a printed page;
hypotheses are that in a book or magazine, you can easily thumb
back a page or two to find a definition, or clarify some past
info, but with the net -- even with hyperlinks -- it's harder to
find the exact spot for something you'd read earlier. (shrug)

I'd even go a bit farther and say that books alone also are a
damned poor way to learn bonsai. I've put a little essay on our
Knowledge Base that outlines how researchers have determined
people learn things. It is from before the WWW blossomed, but
other studies (above) have filled in the gap.

(And before someone chortles "But you just told us how crappy
the I'net was for learning and now YOU've put something there?"
I'll reply that it only proves my point. ANYONE can put stuff
up on the I'net. It's reader beware. ;-)

GOTO:
http://internetbonsaiclub.org/knowle...articles/misc/

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - "IF YOU'VE
SEEN ONE REDWOOD TREE, YOU'VE SEEN THEM ALL."
- Forestry expert, Ronald Reagan

************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++
************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++
************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Jim asked: How do you recognize the potential in a scraggly, runted tree?

Answer: Develop your "inner eye".
I once went out with a friend looking for potentsai. He spotted a beautiful
beech. I knew right away it would be a loser; but he insisted, so I pitched
in to help him dig it. Why did I think it was not suitable?
1. I knew that beeches have roots that cling to the surface and stretch out
many meters from the trunk.
2. The lowest branch was more than a meter from the base.

While he was busy with his beech, I looked around and found 5 little
mountain laurels. It took me 5 minutes to dig all of them. After we lugged
his beech to the wagon, I brought over my little treasure trove.
"Where did you find them", he asked,
" I didn't see them while I was looking."
When I told him that my inner eye found them, he looked at me quizzicaly and
remained quiet for a long time.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Lewis"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 9:50 AM
Subject: [IBC] Growing Bonsai in the UK (help for a beginner)

************************************************** ******************************
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************************************************** ******************************
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HI Pauline
This is why I adviced Harry Tomlinso as is an English person living
in GB and using local stock or foreign under the british climate
as a starting book for the next 4-6 years is perfect
useless to start with big caliphers

..

Pauline Muth wrote:
IF you are stuck in an area with no bonsai club or studio to learn at, do
try the
following books:
John Naka's Bonsai Techniques I and II
American Bonsai Society Correspondence Course by Tom Zane
David De Groot' s Bonsai Design ( Through American Bonsai Society)
These can these you the basics and are thoroughly tested and have great
information.
But all in all you MUST get seasonal information and local species
information from
people in your area.
Keep growing
Pauline F Muth Zone 4 West Charlton NY USA
www.pfmbonsai.com




-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club ]On Behalf
Of Jim Lewis
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 9:38 AM
To:
Subject: [IBC] Growing Bonsai in the UK (help for a beginner)


On 26 Jan 2005 at 13:47, Theo wrote:


Intenet is useless unless you know the basic know how ...
can be a rich complement though!
I am doing bonsai since 27 years before internet existed and some
people even far more than I.. and we all learned and still learn but
without the basic knowledge internet will make a big mess in your

mind...

but a do as you please..



Theo may have overstated the case, but I tend to agree with him;
the Internet a a very haphazard -- even spastic -- way to learn
anything. Studies have shown that retention of material read on
the I'net is much lower than material read from a printed page;
hypotheses are that in a book or magazine, you can easily thumb
back a page or two to find a definition, or clarify some past
info, but with the net -- even with hyperlinks -- it's harder to
find the exact spot for something you'd read earlier. (shrug)

I'd even go a bit farther and say that books alone also are a
damned poor way to learn bonsai. I've put a little essay on our
Knowledge Base that outlines how researchers have determined
people learn things. It is from before the WWW blossomed, but
other studies (above) have filled in the gap.

(And before someone chortles "But you just told us how crappy
the I'net was for learning and now YOU've put something there?"
I'll reply that it only proves my point. ANYONE can put stuff
up on the I'net. It's reader beware. ;-)

GOTO:
http://internetbonsaiclub.org/knowle...articles/misc/

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - "IF YOU'VE
SEEN ONE REDWOOD TREE, YOU'VE SEEN THEM ALL."
- Forestry expert, Ronald Reagan

************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++
************************************************** **************************
****

-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++
************************************************** ******************************

-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

--
MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4
Private Mail :
«»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«»