"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Koi-Lo My impersonator is Roy TJ Hauer aka Roy. wrote:

"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
I don't use any chemicals in my tanks. I rely on the fish. I feed
the fish and the fish feed the plants.

The problem is they don't. Fertilize properly and use Co2 OR Flourish
Excel and it'll go away by itself.

In your tanks maybe. I bought all those Seachem fertilizers plus Flourish
and still have black-red algae. Let people know before spending a lot of
cash that what works for YOU may not work for THEM.

I had this crap for 7 years till Tom Barr convinced me if
I put fertilizer in the tank the algae will go away. He
uses CO2 I use Excel. Both work.

But not for everyone since not everyone has the exact same conditions you
do
and these products are not cheap.

Any fool that can use google can see it's worked for everybody except you
and one other guy. This comes as no surprise as I suepct the laws of
physics
don't actually apply at your house.

And any fool knows all tanks are different with different loads, different
water conditions, different gallonage, differing numbers and types of
plants. And I suspect my conditions are not like your conditions. And you
are WRONG,... there was another woman here who had it fail for her as well.
If she sees this thread she may reply.

Excel is $8. A full load of chemicals for a year is $12 from a hydroponics
store.

$12.00? When? 30 years ago? Or are you talking about for one 10g tank?
The shipping and handling *alone* was $18 at the last recommended website I
checked out for these chemicals - that didn't include the price of any of
the chemicals (micronutrients, iron supplements etc). As for the Seachem
products, the typical 250ml size doesn't go very far when one has several
55g tanks or even several smaller tanks.
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

"Dick" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:56:55 +0000 (UTC),
(Richard Sexton) wrote:

I don't use any chemicals in my tanks. I rely on the fish. I feed
the fish and the fish feed the plants.

The problem is they don't. Fertilize properly and use Co2 OR Flourish
Excel and it'll go away by itself.

I had this crap for 7 years till Tom Barr convinced me if
I put fertilizer in the tank the algae will go away. He
uses CO2 I use Excel. Both work.

"The problem is they don't?" Well, excuse me, I have been misled. I
wish my plants would read your response. Maybe I could spend less
time thinning the ignorant plants in my tanks.

My tanks have been relying on their fish for over 3 years.
I have an aversion to any special additives, I am a bad, careless
chemist. I can't have as wide a variety of plants, but I am pleased
with the ones I have.

I wonder if the fertilizer may not be a contributing factor to the
problem.

dick
=======================
I'm wondering if all the additives I used contributed to the mysterious
deaths of my delicate fancy goldfish. Not one outside fish died during that
time. Nothing was added to their (outdoor) tanks. All these chemicals did
was give my plants an initial boost and slowed the black sooty algae to a
near stop. The plants reacted with a burst of new growth, but then I also
added stronger light at the same time to discourage those "toilet tank
diatoms". But then the effects wore off, the new plants started to fade
away and the old standbys we've had for years are still with us. The Excel
didn't turn any of the algae white and cause it to "fall off" the plants or
glass as I was told it would. And it's darned expensive to use all these
supplements when you have two 55s and four 10s. I'm going to stick with my
old plants that thrive under our conditions for now. The plecos and otos
cleaned most of the slowed-down algae off the plants and glass.
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

Dick wrote:

I wonder if the fertilizer may not be a contributing factor to the
problem.

dick

No, not to BGA.

99% of the algae issues in fully/mostly planted tanks is related to a
lack of something, not an excess.

Your plants are not growing, that's why you have algae.........they
might look okay, but compared to their potential growth, they are just
sitting there, idling till there is enough nutrients to grow.

You can easily induce BGA, Oscillitoria (species: splendens mostly), by
reducing/stopping NO3 dosing and maintaining the Traces, PO4, K+ dosing
etc. This will drive the NO3 to near zero. You'll see it along the
gravel edge and glass, typically closest to ambient light/windows etc.

So knowing this, you can kill off the BGA, but.......much much much
more importantly, now you know what is the root cause for it's
appearance, thus do preventitive maintenance.

Say you want nice looking teeth(Planted tank), do you brush them often
or do you wait till you have cavities(algae all over) and need a root
canal?

Stop neglecting the tank.
Add more KNO3 and BGA will not appear again if you keep up on
things(NO3 dosing).

Now while many tanks have different fish, loading etc, BGA grows for
very definable reasons................as well as most algae, they are
more specific than plants in terms of the environmental parameters they
enjoy and what induces the spores to germinate into adults.

I do not need to know what your tank is like, the ppms etc, I know
right away that there is either a clogged filter, too few water
changes, flithy conditions due to a very long peroid of neglect, or
much more commonly: low/absent NO3.

Many of the algae can be used to know what is wrong with an aquarist's
tank rapidly, BBA= low or too much variation in the CO2 levels
throughout the day, GW= anything that causes a slight build up on NH4.
Staghorn: urea build up from excess fish/critter loading= similar the
GW reasons. And the list goes on and on.........

Know your enemy and what makes them grow.
Too few planted aquarist know much about algae other than they hate it
and want to get rid of it.

So rather than inducing it to learn more about it, they instead focus
all their time and efforts trying to get rid of it and they end up
guessing for many years, they assume many incorrect things and then
lots of myths get circulated.

If you know what induces the spores to germinate and produce a bloom,
then you know what is going on.........

I do not see why this concept is so strange to folks............Stop
guessing and figure it out. I did and can show folks how to prove the
same obvservations to themselves and inducement methods. Then you'll
know and stop the years of guessing.

Once the BGA starts to grow, like most adult algae, the adults are much
tougher than the spores, think about it...........does a little
seedling have a better chance than a large adult tree? Of course not.
Nor the reserves and nutrient storage capacity.

So while adding KNO3 will address the long range issue and prevent it
from coming back, the 3 blackout/50% water change + good cleaning and
1/4 teaspoon KNO3 per 80 luiters of tank thereafter, 3 days of
blackout(Turn CO2 off) followed by the same 50% water change and dosing
again(turn lights on/CO2 etc) will kill all the BGA you have.

Trash bags 2 layers thick are ideal and you should make sure no light
gets in through the trash bags. Yes, you can feed your fishj, yes, you
can peak, no your plants are not so weak that this treatment will harm
them, they do send in the mail and it's not the dark mailbox that
causes shipping issues, it's freezing or excess heat melting them.

So there is a simple, FREE, non herbical, non antibiotic method anyone
can do, that addresses every type of tank(KNO3 dose is less for non CO2
tanks, marine tanks, oh yes, it works very well for marine
tanks......), it's extremely effective.

Often times with mild cases, no blackout is even needed.
A good cleaning, with some large water changes and redose with KNO3.

Some folks spot treat after with some H2O2.
Some use the pills/antibiotics in conjunction with the KNO3 dosing.

I don't care how you kill the BGA, but make sure you address why it
showed up in the first place.

Pills, H2O2 etc never would show you what induiced the
BGA..............the black will quickly be reinfected if you did not do
the KNO3 dosing..........

That is the real critical part. Antiobiotics will take longer for
reinfection, too long to make the observation that the low NO3 induces
the BGA..........

A healthy group of growing plants is a much better look than weak
plants limited by NO3, you might be okay with that.........but it's a
poor method over the long run when you could be gardening and growing
anything you want with a very few, small changes.

In general, for CO2 enriched tanks: at least 1/4 teaspoon per 80 liters
weekly in a min, for non CO2, maybe 1/16th-1/8th 2-4x a month depending
on fish load/feeding etc.

Adding cory cats will help also against BGA on the gravel.
After 12 months or more, deep vac the gravel also, this gets rid of the
sour organic material and helps improve the O2 levels/circulation in
the gravel.

Hope this helps,

Regards,
Tom Barr

Richard Sexton wrote:

You're not dosing with Potassium nitrate. That's your major problem.

And fits __precisely__ with what I've said for several years about BGA.
Low NO3 causes BGA spores to germinate.

He's adding PO4 from the well water, plenty of traces, some fish waste
etc, everything except extra K and NO3.

Folks that try and water change the BGA are often very frustrated
because once it's there, it's very tough to get rid of and can live on
very low nutrients, like Green water...........green dust algae
zoospores etc

You need to provide a nice range of nutrients for plants in order for
them to grow well, not too low= algae, not too high= dead fish from
very high NO3(100ppm or more using KNO3)

EI is a simple method to do that so you spend more time feeding fish,
gardening and less time fiddling with test kits, calibration solutions
etc....but some folk enjoy that....

I think there is a water testing forum somewhere, that's "their" hobby.
haha

Regards,
Tom Barr

wrote in message
ups.com...

You need to provide a nice range of nutrients for plants in order for
them to grow well, not too low= algae, not too high= dead fish from
very high NO3(100ppm or more using KNO3)
====================
Not everyone knows what you're talking about. Not being a chemist, I have
no idea what the above are. And not everyone can afford a large number of
tests kits. So we tend to stick to the plants that thrive for us with a
minimum of supplements.
--
KL
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

Well your just a ****ing dumbass Carol.........no one expected "YOU"
to understand a freaking thing anyhow.

On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 09:45:32 -0500, "Koi-Lo" ¤?¤@ö½.Õ..Õ¢ wrote:


wrote in message
oups.com...

You need to provide a nice range of nutrients for plants in order for
them to grow well, not too low= algae, not too high= dead fish from
very high NO3(100ppm or more using KNO3)
====================
Not everyone knows what you're talking about. Not being a chemist, I have
no idea what the above are. And not everyone can afford a large number of
tests kits. So we tend to stick to the plants that thrive for us with a
minimum of supplements.

You can reach -Ed Alston at

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Hi..

The phosphate is from the well water I get. I've tried
every product out there to get rid of it.
Nothing works so I've learned to
live with it. I'll try the 'big cleaning' route and crank
up the CO2 and light and see
where we go from there.

Cyanobacteria are mostly no good at tolerating changes in
lightening and water conditions.

I've seen it several times: filter mud inputs were able to
stop them.

My favourite way to stop and remove them are daily tap water
changes of 85% netto over a period of 7 days minimum.

Another ("harder") method were a dimout (lights of, tank
enveloped and running with an extra air stone) for a week.
Your plants might suffer but would survive.

HTH.
--
cu
Marco

Carol I'm sure you're doing your best. But you seem to live in a parallel
universe where nothing is the same. Your single data point does not
invalidate the experiences of a large number of poeple.


--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

In article ,
Dick wrote:
On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:56:55 +0000 (UTC),
(Richard Sexton) wrote:

I don't use any chemicals in my tanks. I rely on the fish. I feed
the fish and the fish feed the plants.

The problem is they don't. Fertilize properly and use Co2 OR Flourish
Excel and it'll go away by itself.

I had this crap for 7 years till Tom Barr convinced me if
I put fertilizer in the tank the algae will go away. He
uses CO2 I use Excel. Both work.

"The problem is they don't?" Well, excuse me, I have been misled. I
wish my plants would read your response. Maybe I could spend less
time thinning the ignorant plants in my tanks.

My tanks have been relying on their fish for over 3 years.
I have an aversion to any special additives, I am a bad, careless
chemist. I can't have as wide a variety of plants, but I am pleased
with the ones I have.

I wonder if the fertilizer may not be a contributing factor to the
problem.

Knockyourself out buddy. All I'm saying is I've fought algae for
30 years and what I said to do seems to fix it at the suggestion
of those pesky folks who keep entering the AGA contests.

Of course there aer people that can get acceptible results without
fertilization. But if you want "stunnning" instead of "accpetible"
then you may need to play junior scientist.

This subject has been beaten to death for 15 years on the APD list
and all thigns being equal you can grow better plants if you fertilize
than if you don't. That's not an opinion, that's an empirical
observation.


--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

time. Nothing was added to their (outdoor) tanks. All these chemicals did
was give my plants an initial boost and slowed the black sooty algae to a
near stop. The plants reacted with a burst of new growth, but then I also

Therefore you concluded you were on the wrong path? Ooooooooook...

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

In article ,
Marco Schwarz wrote:
Hi..

The phosphate is from the well water I get. I've tried
every product out there to get rid of it.
Nothing works so I've learned to
live with it. I'll try the 'big cleaning' route and crank
up the CO2 and light and see
where we go from there.

Cyanobacteria are mostly no good at tolerating changes in
lightening and water conditions.

I've seen it several times: filter mud inputs were able to
stop them.

My favourite way to stop and remove them are daily tap water
changes of 85% netto over a period of 7 days minimum.

Yup. But as Tom says, this just cures the sympton not the cause.

But yes it does work. For a neglected tank I change 80% per day
for two days then 50% a day for 5 days and it looks like new.

If I actually get off my lazy butt and fertilize, the alage neevr
comes back.


--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

In article . com,
wrote:
You need to provide a nice range of nutrients for plants in order for
them to grow well, not too low= algae, not too high= dead fish from
very high NO3(100ppm or more using KNO3)

Crytps will curl the leaf ends with 3 weeks of 200 ppm but I never
say a fish, shrimp or snail be even uncomfortable let alone dead.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Not everyone knows what you're talking about.

True.

And not everyone can afford a large number of tests kits.

Tom is saying you don't need test kits. He's right about that.

So we tend to stick to the plants that thrive for us with a
minimum of supplements.

They're not "supplements" they're "food".

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
Carol I'm sure you're doing your best. But you seem to live in a parallel
universe where nothing is the same. Your single data point does not
invalidate the experiences of a large number of poeple.
=================================
I did what was suggested I do. That was the major water changes and
thorough gravel vacuuming. I ordered all the supplements from Foster &
Smith. I followed the directions on the containers. The algae never turned
white and never fell off.

You seem to be living in a Universe where everything is identical.......
odd that! I sent Gill pictures of some tanks/fish which clearly show the
black-red algae was still there, weeks after adding all these expensive
supplements. When I saw they weren't working I went ahead and bought the
otos and plecs.

It's not fair to have people believe of they add these supplements they
*WILL* work regardless of gallonage, filters, lighting or fish load. That
is unless there's a money-back guarantee, which there isn't.
--
KL.......
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
time. Nothing was added to their (outdoor) tanks. All these chemicals
did
was give my plants an initial boost and slowed the black sooty algae to a
near stop. The plants reacted with a burst of new growth, but then I also

Therefore you concluded you were on the wrong path? Ooooooooook...
===================
And yet I continued on using the supplements since I already had them -
bought and paid for. Did you think I threw then away? I'm still using
them. The old plants are doing fine as they always have. Most of the new
ones are dead and gone. Some black sooty and black hairy algae remains.
--
KL....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*