I asked this question as a Poll on Wet Thumb, What substrate would you
recommend to a beginner? The choices are Flourite, Eco Complete,
Laterite and gravel, peat or soil, amd plain gravel.

So far the results are

Eco Complete 72%

Flourite 11% !!

gravel and laterite 6%

peat or soil 9%

plain gravel 11%

Agree or disagree? You can cast your vote he

http://aquabotanicwetthumb.infopop.c...2&f=8796060812

(Robert H) wrote in message . com...
I asked this question as a Poll on Wet Thumb, What substrate would you
recommend to a beginner? The choices are Flourite, Eco Complete,
Laterite and gravel, peat or soil, amd plain gravel.

So far the results are

Eco Complete 72%

Flourite 11% !!

gravel and laterite 6%

peat or soil 9%

plain gravel 11%

Agree or disagree? You can cast your vote he

http://aquabotanicwetthumb.infopop.c...2&f=8796060812

I like Eco complete.
I like Flora base
I like Flourite
I like Onyx

Folks will have a rough time going wrong using any of these.
I'd still add a little peat and mulm to these substrates.

I do not like the notion that Flora base and Eco complete claim saying
that you do not need CO2 using their product.

I can say the same about any substrate but they indicate you will have
a great tank like if you added CO2 simply by using their product which
is simply not true.

Adding CO2 vs using their product is not the same.

CO2 can only be supplied for so long from any substrate without some
source of replinshment.

What goes in must come out.
That's the two box model. You cannot get away from that and
considering the volume of Carbon that plants have, the substrate will
not be able to supply the plant's carbon needs for long for the same
biomass produced in a CO2 enriched tank.

If CO2 from the substrate is the goal: soil substrates will beat
anything around, they have more carbon.

Regards,
Tom Barr

(Robert H) wrote:

Eco Complete 72%

This is the small-grained black one that's packed wet? I saw it in the
stores shortly after I set up my planted tank, but I had the
impression it was new - I'll let other people experiment with these
things for the kind of price that stuff had.

But if it did all it says, I'd definitely consider it for my next
planted tank.

Flourite 11% !!

Hm. I would have expected higher. The only problem I see at all with
Flourite is the need for thorough rinsing, and that's a one-time
concern.

gravel and laterite 6%
peat or soil 9%

Both sound like a horrible mess to me.


--
www.ericschreiber.com

(Robert H) wrote in
om:

Eco Complete 72%

Untested, AFAIK.

Flourite 11% !!

This is my suggestion.

gravel and laterite 6%

Oh, fun, when you mess with the tank you can get lots of iron in your water
column! Welcome to the Dutch Algae Tank.

peat or soil 9%

This sounds great, if you won't have any water or fish in the tank :P

plain gravel 11%

This will work for java ferns, mosses, anubias, and some stem plants. ANy
root feeders like crypts swords or apons are not gonna like it.

~Empty

--
'You're not friends. You'll never be friends. You'll be in love till it
kills you both. You'll fight, and you'll shag, and you'll hate each other
till it makes you quiver, but you'll never be friends. Love isn't brains,
children, it's blood... blood screaming inside you to work its will. I may
be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it.'
Spike

I have had great success with Eco Complete. It has given me the plant
growth I had with florite with the following benefits:

1) It looks nicer.
2) It does not cloud the water like florite (this is HUGE).
3) It is not as sharp as florite (less likely to scratch acrylic
tanks).

I will never go back! I also like to put in a little Tahetian Moon
Sand in the front for appearance.

Let us not forget about Prolfile/Turface/Schultz's aquatic plant soil.
The weight issue can be dealt with by adding 25-50% sand for added
weight and ease of planting etc.

"Excess"(?) Iron has not caused algae in any tank I have critically
tested it on.
Algae needs such a small amount and so do plants for that matter
before it becomes limiting you simply do not possess a test kit that
even comes close.
Most researchers do not have the equipment to limit and test for Fe
limitation for FW algae. Some Marine specialist do.

You will not be able to limit an alga by Fe limitation because you
cannot tell if there's enough Fe to become truly limiting or not.
A plant leaks and dies/leaf is dropped and decompsed etc and leaks out
a tiny amount of Fe and you would not even get a chance to test it
before it was assimilated etc.

A similar thing happens with NH4 but at higher concentrations.

Regards,
Tom Barr

I do not like the notion that Flora base and Eco complete claim saying
that you do not need CO2 using their product.



You must be thinking of Florabase, I know nothing about Florabase, but
Eco Complete makes no such claim about C02

"Eco complete is new...untested"

It is still fairly new, its been out about a year now. And lots of
people are using it...several AGA contest winners

One of the most favorite and simplest reasons why people like this
over Flourite is it requires no rinsing. No dust whatsoever.

Here is what they DO claim:

Contains over 25 minerals and nutrients

Is pH neutral, will not raise hardness or ph

All natural, no dyes

Is pre packed in two layers, a fine layer for the bottom and a course
layer for the top (bi-modal grading automaticaly separates into two
distinc layers no matter how you dump it in the tank) Fine layer for
root development, course layer which brings oxygen and nutrients to
the roots

Is packed in Liquid Amazon Black water

Contains live heterotrophic bacteria

If someone like Tom wants the details, here it is

iron 41,625.02 ppm
magnesium 23, 116.30 ppm
calcium 33, 065.61 ppm
potassium 5,296.37 ppm
zinc 77.78 ppm
sulfur 360.81 ppm
Manganese 975.71 ppm
sodium 12,910.97 ppm
aluminum 43,152.08 ppm
silicon 4,498.92 ppm
chromium 49.76 ppm
cobalt 33.41 ppm
barium 336.91 ppm
strontium 278.09 ppm
nickel 32.80 ppm
titanium 4,486.78 ppm
vanadium 239.01 ppm
lithium 8.37 ppm
boron 2.26 ppm
cadium1.61 ppm

Flourite contains:

Iron
thats it.

Cost is not that much more than Flourite.

But, I still use Flourite in some tanks. So, if you are a Flourite
fan, come vote for it! It needs your vote!

Robert Hudson
www.aquabotanic.com

I find it hard to understand all the fuss about Flourite and the dust
it creates. Have we all lost our patience? Sure it creates some dust
but it clears up in a day or two. I would have thought that color or
growth quality would be the biggest reason why one would choose
between the two. In my case the color is the only reason why I'm not
using it, I prefer the more natural look of Flourite myself.
Eco-complete seems to have many trace elements that Flourite doesn't
have, I can see the benefit there as you won't need to add them
yourself, obviously time will tell how long these elements will be
available for, plus once the Flourite substrate has matured, chances
are it will provide many of these elements too. But unless you plan on
building sand castles in your tank, I think the dust factor of
Flourite shouldn't be made into such a big deal. Messing around with
any substrate will cause problems, and it's not the dust you need to
worry about. If we're talking about best substrate for beginners, then
perhaps the fact that eco-complete already contains some nutrients may
give it the advantage, but I don't think it will make or break a tank,
if you are successful with eco-complete I'm sure you would be just as
successful with Flourite.

Giancarlo Podio

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 06:21:37 UTC,
) wrote:


"Excess"(?) Iron has not caused algae in any tank I have critically
tested it on.
Algae needs such a small amount and so do plants for that matter
before it becomes limiting you simply do not possess a test kit that
even comes close.
Most researchers do not have the equipment to limit and test for Fe
limitation for FW algae. Some Marine specialist do.

Not quite my experience. A commercial low-iron test kit will read 0.1 ppm
nicely enough; and if I let the concentration get below that, my crypts
get ugly. But certainly there are lots of algae that will grow at that
concentration, so stopping algae by limiting iron isn't a useful idea.

A lot of people talk of _hair_ algae, specifically, being promoted by high
Fe concentration. I wonder if there's something to that. (But what does
it matter? If people are adding iron in order to grow plants, they surely
have algae-eating fish, and they'll never see hair algae. If they don't
have algae eaters, it's hopeless anyway.)


--
Dan Drake

http://www.dandrake.com

"Robert H" wrote in message
om...
Flourite contains:

Iron
thats it.

Let's not oversimplify things... The content of a substrate is not
necessarily the most important thing. Ya gotta ask if the minerals
are very AVAILABLE to plants...

Check this out: http://home.infinet.net/teban/jamie.htm
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Engle

DFW, TX USA
Independent Associate
Pre-Paid Legal Services, Inc.
http://www.prepaidlegal.com/go/dengle

"Robert H" wrote in message
om...
Flourite contains:

Iron
thats it.

Let's not oversimplify things... The content of a substrate is not
necessarily the most important thing. Ya gotta ask if the minerals
are very AVAILABLE to plants...

Check this out: http://home.infinet.net/teban/jamie.htm
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Engle

DFW, TX USA
Independent Associate
Pre-Paid Legal Services, Inc.
http://www.prepaidlegal.com/go/dengle

"Robert H" wrote in message
om...
Flourite contains:

Iron
thats it.

Let's not oversimplify things... The content of a substrate is not
necessarily the most important thing. Ya gotta ask if the minerals
are very AVAILABLE to plants...

Check this out: http://home.infinet.net/teban/jamie.htm
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Engle

DFW, TX USA
Independent Associate
Pre-Paid Legal Services, Inc.
http://www.prepaidlegal.com/go/dengle

"Robert H" wrote in message
om...
Flourite contains:

Iron
thats it.

Let's not oversimplify things... The content of a substrate is not
necessarily the most important thing. Ya gotta ask if the minerals
are very AVAILABLE to plants...

Check this out: http://home.infinet.net/teban/jamie.htm
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Engle

DFW, TX USA
Independent Associate
Pre-Paid Legal Services, Inc.
http://www.prepaidlegal.com/go/dengle

"Dan Drake" wrote in
news:vhIsdqY67dTD-pn2-4tZMfVbxteyh@localhost:

A lot of people talk of _hair_ algae, specifically, being promoted by
high Fe concentration. I wonder if there's something to that. (But
what does it matter? If people are adding iron in order to grow
plants, they surely have algae-eating fish, and they'll never see hair
algae. If they don't have algae eaters, it's hopeless anyway.)

I have seen this in action.

One of my eels (a yellow-tailed spiny eel) dug up a laterite ball
inadvertently. I only noticed because hair algae came in like mad, fast
enough that I could see lots of stubble despite the two large and
industrious SAEs in the tank. When I buried the laterite again, the hair
algae ebbed.

~Empty
--
'You're not friends. You'll never be friends. You'll be in love till it
kills you both. You'll fight, and you'll shag, and you'll hate each other
till it makes you quiver, but you'll never be friends. Love isn't brains,
children, it's blood... blood screaming inside you to work its will. I may
be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it.'
Spike

"Dan Drake" wrote in
news:vhIsdqY67dTD-pn2-4tZMfVbxteyh@localhost:

A lot of people talk of _hair_ algae, specifically, being promoted by
high Fe concentration. I wonder if there's something to that. (But
what does it matter? If people are adding iron in order to grow
plants, they surely have algae-eating fish, and they'll never see hair
algae. If they don't have algae eaters, it's hopeless anyway.)

I have seen this in action.

One of my eels (a yellow-tailed spiny eel) dug up a laterite ball
inadvertently. I only noticed because hair algae came in like mad, fast
enough that I could see lots of stubble despite the two large and
industrious SAEs in the tank. When I buried the laterite again, the hair
algae ebbed.

~Empty
--
'You're not friends. You'll never be friends. You'll be in love till it
kills you both. You'll fight, and you'll shag, and you'll hate each other
till it makes you quiver, but you'll never be friends. Love isn't brains,
children, it's blood... blood screaming inside you to work its will. I may
be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it.'
Spike