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Old 17-03-2003, 10:20 PM
Big Daddy
 
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Default Is it OK to put dog poop on a garden?

I am trying to settle an argument with someone that says you can and
even thinks it stupid if people don't. Any opinions either way?
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Old 17-03-2003, 11:42 PM
Phisherman
 
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Default Is it OK to put dog poop on a garden?

Xref: news7 rec.gardens:214262

On Mon, 17 Mar 2003 21:11:43 GMT, Big Daddy
wrote:

I am trying to settle an argument with someone that says you can and
even thinks it stupid if people don't. Any opinions either way?



Carnivorous animal feces should not be added to a garden nor compost.
It could contain harmful pathogens. I know someone who added dog
feces to an area that grew spearmint, but they did not use the
spearmint for consumption. Rather than adding to a compost pile, you
could probably safely add it to a "digester," which can take oils,
meat, and other things not normally suited for a compost pile.
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Old 17-03-2003, 11:42 PM
Jane
 
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Default Is it OK to put dog poop on a garden?

No fresh poop is good because it will burn the plants. Manure needs to be
aged so the ammonia is gone.
Jane
"Big Daddy" wrote in message
...
I am trying to settle an argument with someone that says you can and
even thinks it stupid if people don't. Any opinions either way?



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Old 17-03-2003, 11:42 PM
Phisherman
 
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Default Is it OK to put dog poop on a garden?

Xref: news7 rec.gardens:214262

On Mon, 17 Mar 2003 21:11:43 GMT, Big Daddy
wrote:

I am trying to settle an argument with someone that says you can and
even thinks it stupid if people don't. Any opinions either way?



Carnivorous animal feces should not be added to a garden nor compost.
It could contain harmful pathogens. I know someone who added dog
feces to an area that grew spearmint, but they did not use the
spearmint for consumption. Rather than adding to a compost pile, you
could probably safely add it to a "digester," which can take oils,
meat, and other things not normally suited for a compost pile.
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Old 17-03-2003, 11:42 PM
Jane
 
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Default Is it OK to put dog poop on a garden?

No fresh poop is good because it will burn the plants. Manure needs to be
aged so the ammonia is gone.
Jane
"Big Daddy" wrote in message
...
I am trying to settle an argument with someone that says you can and
even thinks it stupid if people don't. Any opinions either way?





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Old 17-03-2003, 11:42 PM
paghat
 
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Default Is it OK to put dog poop on a garden?

In article , Big
Daddy wrote:

I am trying to settle an argument with someone that says you can and
even thinks it stupid if people don't. Any opinions either way?


Controled experiments have found dog poo heats rapidly, composts
completely, leaves no potentially harmful pathogens behind. As for
putting it fresh & yucky right in the garden, there are indeed many
potential pathogens one might be exposed to, the more harmful if if one
doesn't follow normal hygienic practices after gardening. But at worst,
it's no more dangerous than living with an animal that poops in the yard &
scrapes its bum across the living room carpet & licks peanut butter
sandwich particles right into the kids' mouths. The hysterics one
occasionally hears about composted poo of carniverous beasties isn't 100%
baseless, but certainly exaggerated to the point of superstition -- for
what risk does exist will always be considerably less than just petting
the dog.There are in fact so many illnesses that dogs spread to humans
it's a wonder the worry-warts ever have a pet, & they should also stop
gardening & wrap themselves up in sterilized bubblewrap, since every year
quite a few people, generally elderly with no tetanus shots in 20 years,
get blood poisoning & die just from gardening in wholesome soil. If people
wanna worry about stuff that'll make 'em sick up to & including dropping
dead, they should start with their fat & sugar intake, not with the
possibility that their habit of juggling rubber dog doodies might cause
them to accidentally grab a couple fistfuls of actual dogshit.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/
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Old 17-03-2003, 11:42 PM
paghat
 
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Default Is it OK to put dog poop on a garden?

In article , Big
Daddy wrote:

I am trying to settle an argument with someone that says you can and
even thinks it stupid if people don't. Any opinions either way?


Controled experiments have found dog poo heats rapidly, composts
completely, leaves no potentially harmful pathogens behind. As for
putting it fresh & yucky right in the garden, there are indeed many
potential pathogens one might be exposed to, the more harmful if if one
doesn't follow normal hygienic practices after gardening. But at worst,
it's no more dangerous than living with an animal that poops in the yard &
scrapes its bum across the living room carpet & licks peanut butter
sandwich particles right into the kids' mouths. The hysterics one
occasionally hears about composted poo of carniverous beasties isn't 100%
baseless, but certainly exaggerated to the point of superstition -- for
what risk does exist will always be considerably less than just petting
the dog.There are in fact so many illnesses that dogs spread to humans
it's a wonder the worry-warts ever have a pet, & they should also stop
gardening & wrap themselves up in sterilized bubblewrap, since every year
quite a few people, generally elderly with no tetanus shots in 20 years,
get blood poisoning & die just from gardening in wholesome soil. If people
wanna worry about stuff that'll make 'em sick up to & including dropping
dead, they should start with their fat & sugar intake, not with the
possibility that their habit of juggling rubber dog doodies might cause
them to accidentally grab a couple fistfuls of actual dogshit.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/
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Old 18-03-2003, 12:08 AM
Thalocean2
 
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Default Is it OK to put dog poop on a garden?

Carnivore and omnivore feces contain heavy metals. (mercury etc.) The metals
will transfer from your soil to your plants. When you eat these plants the
metals will collect in your brain tissue and eventually cause damage.

Laura B.


I am trying to settle an argument with someone that says you can and
even thinks it stupid if people don't. Any opinions either way?



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Old 18-03-2003, 12:32 AM
Penny Morgan
 
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Default Is it OK to put dog poop on a garden?

The rule of thumb that I learned about composting manure is that any animal
that is a carnivore (meat eating), do NOT use their waste
on gardens or in compost. Any animal that is herbivore (plant eating), DO
use in compost and gardens.

I guess that's why chicken, cow, horse, etc. seems to be the poop of choice
for fertilizers. Don't worry, I had a stupid neighbor argue
with me that her cat poop in her gardens were fertilizing her plants. It
didn't take long to see flies, maggots and dead plants. HA!

Do a search on composting and manure and I bet you'll find some info on why
certain animal waste is not used.

Penny
Zone 7b - North Carolina
"Big Daddy" wrote in message
...
I am trying to settle an argument with someone that says you can and
even thinks it stupid if people don't. Any opinions either way?



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Old 18-03-2003, 02:20 AM
paghat
 
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Default Is it OK to put dog poop on a garden?

In article m, "Penny
Morgan" wrote:

The rule of thumb that I learned about composting manure is that any animal
that is a carnivore (meat eating), do NOT use their waste
on gardens or in compost. Any animal that is herbivore (plant eating), DO
use in compost and gardens. I guess that's why chicken, cow, horse, etc.
seems to be the poop of choice for fertilizers.


The problem of e-coli in herbivore poo & salmonella from chickenshit means
it's JUST AS DANGEROUS as dog & cat poo with its potential to carry
toxocara to people. Which is to say, it's not terribly dangerous if you're
not sticking poo-encrusted fingers in your mouth or up your nose. These
superstitions against dog & cat poo are hard to weed out of the gardening
community! The distinction commonly made between carnivore poo "bad"
herbivore poo "good" is completely baseless. One of the riskiest exposures
is e-coli in cowpies, & salmonella in chickenshit. Well-composted shit is
safe, regardless of the animal it plopped out of.

Don't worry, I had a stupid neighbor argue
with me that her cat poop in her gardens were fertilizing her plants. It
didn't take long to see flies, maggots and dead plants. HA!

Do a search on composting and manure and I bet you'll find some info on why
certain animal waste is not used.


Do a search on the web & you can find that black people have lower IQs
than white people, that guns don't kill people, & flying saucer
kidnappings are real.

Most of what can be read throughout the Web on this topic is, err, crap.
But this page is pretty good:
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/ga...omposting.html
It notes that thermophilic activity at 130 degrees is sufficient to kill
ALL pathogens in dog & cat poo, with five turns at three day intervals.
This is based on actual tests at the University of Oregon. Several other
univeristy websites have contrary information -- none of them did tests so
just posted opinions without checking the actual studies. And of course
the generic garden sites are just the lamest information imaginable,
mostly rumors & myths & no facts whatsoever. The University of Oregon
study showed that temperatures ROUTINELY reach a high enough temperature
in any well-mixed pile, it is not the least bit difficult to do safely.


Penny


The credible reason to avoid fresh dog & cat feces is it carries diseases
(as does herbivore poo). Yet the worries are the same as one would have
from picking up your dog's poops while walking the dog (as laws require),
or cleaning the catbox, which are if anything RISKIER activities. The
number of POSSIBLE diseases humans can get from touching the animals
themselves is so long & scary that a full accounting would probably cause
some people to get rid of all their pets immediately. People who practice
good family hygiene are not at much at risk. I'll repost a commentary on
composting dog poo:

-------
-------

MANY people compost their own dog's poo. Some people have thought there is
a risk to doing this, though a much smaller risk than having a dog at all
since pathogens are much more likely to be passed living animal to animal
(& the dog is equally likely to get something from its human). Some have
said it is best to let the turds sun-dry to kill any possible pathogenic
microbes, THEN toss into the compost. Actually, as it turns out, all
worries are pretty much groundless.

Good composting methods DO kill pathogens in dogshit contrary to
superstition. There wouldn't be a big Zoo Doo project in so many American
zoos if pathogens survived the composting process for manure composts. It
is not quite exactly the "heat" per se that breaks down matter in a
compost, the heat is a natural by-product of the endeavorings of the
bacteria, funguses & actinomycetes, the one-celled little critters &
primitive plantlifes that cause the fermentation of carboyhydrates as they
yum-yum-eatem-up their way through any kind of rotting matter turning it
from a pile of Zoo Doo or Dog Turds into rich sweet-smelling earth.

A fairly major study of this was undertaken in Alaska largely for the
benifit of dog mushers, whose kennels & training farms accumulate huge
dogshit piles, & wanted to know DEFINITIVELY if an almost pure dog-manure
compost would be a safe, healthy, high-nutrient garden soil enrichment.

Ann Rippy's Alaska study with scientific method set out to determine how
great a ratio of dogshit (nitrogen source) to woodchips or shredded straw
(carbon source) was most effective. The wrong mix was not necessarily any
less likely to be effective, but the right ratio speeded the process along
most handily. Ann Rippy found that two-thirds dogshit to one-third carbon
source is best. The heat-range in the compost was somewhere around 150
degrees (130 to 170) Fahrenheit. When temperatures fell lower, "turning"
or otherwise introducing oxygen to the mix got the temperature back up.
This temperature is more than sufficient to kill Toxicara canis (ringworm)
which is the most heat-tolerant of all pathogens ever likely to be in
dogshit. It took a scant three weeks, and only two turns to keep oxygen
level up, before the manure pile smelled like a perfectly sweet compost
pile, I wish I could make the same claim for my compost pile which doesn't
even have any shit in it. Hence Ann Rippy's study concluded: Compost from
dogshit is good, safe, & healthy to use for enriching garden soil.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/


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Old 18-03-2003, 02:44 AM
paghat
 
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Default Is it OK to put dog poop on a garden?

In article ,
(Thalocean2) wrote:

Carnivore and omnivore feces contain heavy metals. (mercury etc.) The metals
will transfer from your soil to your plants. When you eat these plants the
metals will collect in your brain tissue and eventually cause damage.

Laura B.


If heavy metals were a problem in your cat & dog feces, it would be from
something in the immediate environment, & their heavy metals would
possibly match those of all the people in the same environment. It
certainly is NOT a problem restricted to carnivore or omnivore.

Composting does play a role in the introduction of unwanted heavy metals
into the gardening environment: Use of fireplace ashes, lawn clippings
from grasses fed mineral fertilizers, use of toxified lumber's shavings or
sawdust or painted material or dyed paper, & the heavy metals that pollute
CATTLE feeds hence steer & cow manures or which are even normal in sorghum
feeds & suchlike. Even STRAW can be a source of heavy metal pollutants.
There are many sources including a natural amount of heavy metals in the
soils used by plants as nutrients or picked up in cell manufacture, but
the usual causes of excess pollutants & excess phosphorus in the cattle
feeds, as in the lawn clippings or in straw, & ultimately in manure
composts (largely from herbevores), are mineral fertilizers, non-organic
gardening practices (chiefly pesticide use), bulking agents in commercial
composts, automobile & lawnmower pollutants, & even abrasion from stable
equipment. Among which the most signficant are phosphorus fertilizers
typically contaminated with zinc & cadmium; pesticides & herbicides; &
airborn pollutants from factories & motor vehicles including lawnmowers --
these are the sources that end up even in (herbevore) livestock manures
then composts. Dog poo isn't even on the map.

Some miscellaneous dog & cat poo compost facts:

Dog poo compost is higher in phosphates because dogs eat bones (or at
least dogfood with bonemeal in it).

Even clean soil can cause disease (gardening is a foremost cause of blood
poisoning, as tetanus lives in most soils) & good hygiene is certainly
necessary whether or not one is composting poo. But poor compost practices
may permit Toxocara to live some while in a heap, & hygiene becomes
especially necessary if one is turning a smelly pile. When the compost is
so well aged it smells like sweet autumn humous, even Toxocara will have
disappeared, yet because tetanus is always a risk, good hygiene after
handling composts or even regular soils remains essential. And note most
importantly, if your dog IS infected with Toxocara, then the eggs are
already all over your garden -- poo in the compost does not actually to
that risk.

Thermophilic conditions that result in pure ready compost in only three
weeks are difficult for most of us to achieve, though Ann Ripey's study
used normal backyard composting techniques. One reason it worked so well
for her is because, in fact, the presense of feces in a compost pile
itself increases thermophilic activity. If MORE of us would compost the
catbox & the dog-doo, the temperature of the compost pile would
automatically be higher. But anyone who worried about their temperatures
could just cycle the compost back into the garden after a full year.

If you read THE HUMANURE HANDBOOK - A Guide to Composting Human Manure --
you may still not want to break the law & dump your own turds in your
compost pile, but the whys, hows, & wherefores that show even human turds
would in fact be suitable for composting would help allay peoples' largely
baseless fears of composting doggy-duties & catbox gobbets.

All that said, it is still true that Toxocara is a health risk from owning
a dog or growing vegetables where dogs have access -- a risk all but the
most inveterate animal-haters have always been willing to take. And poo in
the compost is the exact level of real risk, not greater. Children are
most prone to getting worms from dogs but from direct contact with the
dog. Divisiveness on this issue is apt to remain because Toxocara will
always be a credible rather than merely superstitious worry -- but it is
the same risk from owning a dog at all. That heat-composted dog manure is
100% safe in all cases is nevertheless divisive because people will reply
that backyard composts do not sustain the reach the ideal temperature --
though in fact the 130 degree temperatures are EASILY and ROUTINELY
sustained, & when they are not it is mainly because of the lack of a fecal
component which would in fact increase the thermophilic activity. There
are arguments on both sides, but as point of fact, there are parallel
risks to steer & cattle manures & chicken manures, e-coli being only the
most ferocious of many risks, but as with dog poo, no risk at all when
fully composted.

So to me this remains central -- people who are paranoid about this sort
of thing shouldn't be gardening at all, since blood poisoning from merley
touching the ground is as great a risk, & even if they don't have pets,
some neighbor's dog probably pooped somewhere along the lawn, & risk of
toxocara is ALREADY as great as ever it gets. Indeed, the only safe thing
is never to go outside at all, & slather oneself with Pine Sol on an
hourly basis until the phenols destroy these paranoids' livers.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl:
http://www.paghat.com/
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Old 18-03-2003, 01:32 PM
Dwight Sipler
 
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Default Is it OK to put dog poop on a garden?

Thalocean2 wrote:

Carnivore and omnivore feces contain heavy metals. (mercury etc.)...





I don't feed my pets heavy metals, so they must be transmuting their
organic food into heavy metals. Think of that! the ancient alchemists
must have been looking in the wrong place if they failed to create
valuable metals from dross. (PS: I'm an omnivore, so I should check my
output also).

On the other hand, maybe they're chewing on my car when I'm not looking.
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Old 18-03-2003, 03:56 PM
Beecrofter
 
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Default Is it OK to put dog poop on a garden?

Big Daddy wrote in message ...
I am trying to settle an argument with someone that says you can and
even thinks it stupid if people don't. Any opinions either way?


I have been trying to convince my dogs that their feces does not
belong in the garden but they just cock their heads to the side and
give me dumb looks. Periodically I remove it.
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Old 18-03-2003, 06:44 PM
Ian
 
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Default Is it OK to put dog poop on a garden?

Everyone acts as if dog crap, or any other type of crap is toxic. Its
not. Just compost it and use it all the same.
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