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Old 23-07-2008, 09:37 PM posted to rec.gardens
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First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,096
Default Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ? Sevin is a Certified Organic Pesticide. It can be applied up to 7 days pre harvest on grapes Or how I stopped worrying and learned to love the chemical way..Not

In article ,
Rick wrote:

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 23:17:33 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article ,
Jangchub wrote:

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:32:20 -0400, "Paul E. Lehmann"
wrote:

really expensive gift you got. Japanese beetles
are easily knocked into a bowl of water to drown
and sure when they're at peak you have to do it
every day but it still beats poison.

I have a backyard vineyard of 110 vines. I will
give you a glass of wine each time you come out
and drown them for me :-). I know a lot of
frinjdwelr wrote:



There is a lot of mis-information in this thread, so I created an
altered header.


Sevin is a certified Organic pesticide. It can be applied up to 7
days pre harvest. It is easily washed from fruit.

Here's a list of other certified organic pesticides.

http://scarab.msu.montana.edu/HpIPMS...tle-Potato.htm

Here are the application guides from New York

http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles...azine/carbaryl
/carbaryl_2eeasia_902.html


Changed the header again.

http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm

Poison is poison. Recognition of the web of life vs. being apart or
separated.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...tool=EntrezSys
tem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVD ocSum

Bill

--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA
  #47   Report Post  
Old 23-07-2008, 10:47 PM posted to rec.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Jul 2008
Posts: 503
Default Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ?

In article ,
"Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:

Paul J. Dudley wrote:

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 22:45:55 -0700, Billy wrote:

In article
,
Charlie wrote:

Hmmm....I wonder how wine was produced before
the advent of carbaryl?

It was pretty good when they used amphoras and
fumarias. But then they severed the wine in
these very pretty lead glazed cups and a Gothic
night descended on Europe. Things (flavor)
started looking up again in the mid-1600s when
cork stoppers came into use. In the mean, time
beer and wine saved Europe from the main
diseases of ground water. The same function
that tea served in the East.

Paul should check with the nearest ag
consultant but my understanding is that nothing
harmful to man can survive fermentation. All
the same, you've been a naughty boy Paul. I
know it wasn't your intent to bring about the
downfall of Western Civilization (such as it
is). You've got to be careful about unintended
consequences. See that this doesn't happen
again.


I understand that they also burned sulfur
wicks in their casks much
like adding sodium metabisulfite as many (
can't say 'all' - might start another flame war
) now do.

But ... Yes .. I promise to be more careful in
the future ( .. so I won't start the world
whining again ).

I will chech with the aggies. I have written
gardentech.com ( the company that forced me to
use their dust ) and am waiting their reply.

= Paul =


Paul, since you are making wine I offer the
following information.

"Organic wine" may be hazardous to your health -
depending on the wine makers practices.

For example, if SO2 is not used, if the pH of the
must is above 3.5, if there is extended contact
with the lees, If cultured wine yeast and ML
bacteria are not used then the probability of the
formation of carcinogens is enhanced.

Here is a post I contributed to the wine making
news group:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I always look for articles indicating positive
health benefits of drinking wine and indeed there
are many. I recently came across an article in
"Practical Winery & Vineyard" by Robert Tracy
with the heading of "Human health concerns
associated with wine microorganisms" (pp 96-98).

The partial information I summarize below is NOT
an attempt to start religious wars over technique
or scare anyone but to raise some concerns that
we as wine makers/growers should know.

Personally, I believe there are "probably" more
health related issues in a can of soda than some
of the material discussed below but perhaps we
can make better wine if we are aware of some of
these facts.

Summary and quotes:

"From a winemaking perspective, there are two
types of compounds produced by wine microbes that
have health implications for the consumer:
biogenic amines and ethyl carbamate.**Biogenic
amines have been shown to cause negative
physiological effects in allergic humans (such as
headaches, nausea, hot flashes), while ethyl
carbamate is considered to be a probably
carcinogen to humans.**The*probable*carcinogenic
properties of ethyl carbamate are based on
studies with experimental animals, there is not
direct evidence of it causing cancer in humans."

"The concentration and type of biogenic amines
vary greatly in wines; however, generally red
wines contain significantly more than white
wines.**In*addition,*there*appears*to*be*a*direct
correlation between elevated biogenic amines in
wine, wine spoilage constituents (such as acetic
acid, ethyl acetate, butyric acid, acetoin, and
higher alcohol compounds), and malolactic
fermentation."

Because ethyl carbamate is a probable carcinogen,
it is becoming the focus of international
regulation, and so its formation must be managed
properly both in the vineyard and during the
winemaking process."

"Even though both yeast and bacteria can generate
precursors for ethyl carbamate formation, urea
produced from wine yeast is thought to be the
major precursor."

Factors that affect formation

"Throughout the winemaking process, a whole host
of factors can influence the formation of
biogenic amines including:

1)**initial*microbial*populations*present*on
grapes;

2)**presence*of*precursor*amino*acids*in*grape
juice;

3)**ageing*of*wine*on*wither*yeast*lees*(sur*lie
ageing) or lees following malolactic
fermentation;

4)**extended*grape*maceration;

5)**spontaneous*malolactic*fermentation*by
indigenous lactic acid bacteria;

6)**number*of*lactic*acid*bacteria*that*are
decarboxylase-positive:

7)**wine*pH;

8)**concentration*of*sulfur*dioxide*(SO2)
following malolactic fermentation and during
ageing;

9)**winery*sanitation*practices;

10)**yeast*strain;*and*

11)**fining*practices*(fining*white*wines*with
bentonite may remove biogenic amines).

Among these factors, it has been demonstrated that
malolactic fermentation is the primary stage for
biogenic amine formation during the winemaking
process.

Ethyl carbamate formation is affected by the
following factors:

1)**argine*content*of*grapes;

2)**concentration*of*ethanol;

3)**nutrient*additions*to*must,*during*both
alcoholic and malolactic fermentaitons;

4)**yeast*straiin;

5)**spontaneous*malolactid*fermentaion*by
indigenous lactic acid bacteria;

6) ageing wine on yeast (lees (sur lie ageing);

7)**temperature*of*iwne*during*ageing*and
shipment;

8)**duration*of*wine*ageing;

9)**wine*pH;*and

10)**wineery*sanitation*practices."

"Recommendations to prevent formation of biogenic
amines and ethyl carbamate

Biogenic Amines

if possible periodically monitor microbial
populations on grapes to determine risk for
biogenic amine producers.

if possible, assess concentration of primary
precursor amino acids in grapes and must.

avoid spontaneous alcoholic fermentations and use
commercial strains of Saccharomyces cervisiae
that lack or have minimal decarboxylase activity.

Avoid extended ageing of wine on yeast or
malolactic lees.

Try to minimize extended grape maceration.

Avoid spontaneous malolactic fermentations and use
commercial strains of Oenoccus oeni that lack or
have minimal amino acid decarboxylase activitry.

Try to avoid higher pH wines (above 3.7) since
they allow proliferation of Lactobacillus and
Pediococcus.

When pH of wine is high, lysozyme can be added to
remove the natural lactic acid bacteria.

Immediately following malolactic fermentaion and
during wine ageing, maintain molecular SO2 levels
of at least 0.4 to 0.5 ppm to prevent or minimize
growth of lactic acid bacteria.

Maintan good sanitation practices during wine
production.

Ethyl Carbamate

Avoid argine content of 1000 mg/L in juice.

Avoid excessive nitrogen fertilization of
vineyards.

Periodically monitor nitrogen status of vines and
soil.

Test nitrogen status of juice.

Avoid adding excessive nitrogen supplements; do
not add urea.

Use commercial strains of Saccharomyces cervisiae
that are known to produce low levels of urea
(Premier Cuvee (PdM) or Lallemand 71B) when juice
has a high arginine content.

Avoid ageing wine on yeast lees (sur lie ageing),
which can liberate amino acids and proteins.

Avoid spontaneous malolactic fermentatons and use
commercial strains of Oenoccus oeni that do not
have ability to produce high levels of
citrulline.

Avoid elevated temperatures during ageing and
shipment of wine.

If wines are going to be aged for an extendd
period of time, it is advisable to periodically
monitor ethyl carbamate levels.

Try to avoid higher pH ines (above 3.7) since they
allow proliferation of Lacto bacillus and
Pedioccus.

Immediately following malolactic fermentation and
during wine ageing, maintain molecular SO2 levels
of at least 0.4 to 0.5 ppm to prevent or minimize
growth of lactic acid bacteria.

Maintain good sanitation practices during wine
production."

I realize that amateur winemakers do not have the
resources to monitor all of the above but we can
control a good amount of them.

I encourage anyone who is interested in the topic
to pick up a copy of the magazine.**There*are*23
references cited at the end of the article.**I
did not quote the article in the entirety but
tried to summarize the main points.

Paul


Interesting article, however I suggest you check with
http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~frf/ecintro.html

and download the "Ethyl Carbamate Preventative Action Manual: English
Language Version, PDF format". It is put out by U.C.Davis. I have no
idea who Robert Tracy is or if he is just trying to spice up a story.

S U M M A R Y

Avoid excessive nitrogen fertilization in the vineyard.

Monitor soil nitrogen status.

Monitor vine nitrogen status.

Do not use winter legumes as cover crops if soil nitrogen status is
already high.

Be aware that nitrogen uptake varies strongly with different cultivars
and especially rootstocks.

Monitor juice nitrogen status.

Do not add excessive nitrogen supplements.

Do not add nitrogen supplements routinely.

Do not add urea as nitrogen supplement.

Avoid juice arginine levels greater than 1000 mg/L.

When choosing among wine yeast strains, avoid those with high urea
excretion characteristics.

Use malo-lactic bacteria with known characteristics.

Be aware that use of urease preparations cannot completely eliminate EC
formation.

Be aware that must fortification may aggravate the problem of urea
excretion by yeast.

Monitor EC levels of fortification spirit.

Avoid exposure of wine to elevated temperatures during storage and
transport
--

Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo...eature=related
  #48   Report Post  
Old 23-07-2008, 11:55 PM posted to rec.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Nov 2007
Posts: 310
Default Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ? Sevin is a Certified Organic Pesticide. It can be applied up to 7 days pre harvest on grapes Or how I stopped worrying and learned to love the chemical way..Not

In article
, Bill
wrote:

There is a lot of mis-information in this thread, so I created an
altered header.


Sevin is a certified Organic pesticide. It can be applied up to 7
days pre harvest. It is easily washed from fruit.

Here's a list of other certified organic pesticides.


http://scarab.msu.montana.edu/HpIPMS...tle-Potato.htm

Here are the application guides from New York


http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles...azine/carbaryl
/carbaryl_2eeasia_902.html


Changed the header again.


Yeah, I liked that bit about everyone else being so ignorant that the
"correct" reply requried a separate header -- followed by stuff straight
from the vendors' "toxins are good!" literature.

An organic gardener will never use Carbaryl no matter the brand name. I'm
willing to stay open minded about its dangers or safety -- the evidence is
not in its favor but all things are relative. The Tercyl brand (active
ingredient Carbaryl) it is classified a class 1 toxin, and in Sevin, with
less active ingredient, it is a class 2 toxin; and it becomes a Class 3
toxin for some other brands which have barely any active ingredient at
all. It's toxic in every case with many high-dosage problems and fewer
(but still serious) low exposure risks.

But whether or not the "last word" on the topic ever comes available, the
main thing is that putting "organic" on a toxin doesn't mean organic
gardeners would use it, no more than they'd slather aresenic on
everything, which'd be perfectly "organic" to do. Sevin will kill
beneficial insects, destroy the natural balance, and insure the return of
harmful insects while the beneficial will be slower to recover.

Carbaryl might LEGALLY be used in organic produce fields but those sort of
regulations are never about the best thing for the environment -- they're
about how much you can get away with in a one-species commercial crop to
maximize harvests and still sell the product at the higher price as
organic. Organic gardening is about achieving a healthful balance that
does away with even needing toxins, such as can't seriously be achieved in
a one-species crop but certainly can be achieved in a balanced
multi-species garden for which nature becomes an aid and not a hindrance.

The ACTUAL organic method of treating Japanese beetles for a specific
example is to increase the entomopathogenic nematode and milky spore
population in the soil, following label instructions very narrowly as the
desireable microorganisms may not take hold if applied to soil willynilly
under less than favorable conditions. These require very specific season
and weather conditions to take hold, but once they do, the nematodes will
take care of the grubs of a great many harmful species, and the milkly
spoor will be a permanent fix that gets the Japanese beetle grubs
specifically (it effects no other species at all). Japanese beetles will
never recur, as they will when using pesticides like carbaryl which merely
start the endless cycle of pesticide dependence.

The beneficial microorganism route is unbeatable, but it's not instant,
and in the meantime, while waiting two years for milky spore to take care
of Japanese beetles completely, the subsidiary organic methods begin with
hand-removal when the insects are active on plants (they're great to feed
a pet lizard or pixi frog or laying hens or ciclids such as an oscar).
Planting something they love to distraction, like a Rose of Sharon or a
dwarf crabapple in a very warm/sunny spot, centralizes the
beetle-plucking. Further assistance can be from the parastic wasps Tiphia
vernalis or T. popilliavora which get the beetle eggs, available from a
number of companies and which some neighborhoods join forces to obtain for
an entire block.

Traps can also be placed about for the adult beetles, which some field
studies show take care of as many as three-fourths of the adult beetles in
June and August, and work best at garden peripheries away from plants as
they effectively draw the beetles out of the garden (whereas placed IN the
garden the traps may draw adults from your neighbor's yard and a third or
a fourth of those will get side-tracked by cool plants; also there'll be
so many beetles in the traps that they'll stink of decomposing insects).

In the main, the microorganism route, with some hand-plucking until it
takes hold, is all a garden demands to stay fully organic. And the best
part is that works way better than carbaryl or any other toxin one might
otherwise select.

-paghat the ratgirl

http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm

Poison is poison. Recognition of the web of life vs. being apart or
separated.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...tool=EntrezSys
tem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVD ocSum

Bill

--
visit my temperate gardening website:
http://www.paghat.com
visit my film reviews website:
http://www.weirdwildrealm.com
  #49   Report Post  
Old 24-07-2008, 08:16 AM posted to rec.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: May 2008
Posts: 224
Default Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ? Sevin isa Certified Organic Pesticide. It can be applied up to 7 days pre harvest ongrapes Or how I stopped worrying and learned to love the chemical way..Not

On Jul 23, 5:55 pm, (paghat) wrote:
In article
, Bill

wrote:
Yeah, I liked that bit about everyone else being so ignorant that the
"correct" reply requried a separate header -- followed by stuff straight
from the vendors' "toxins are good!" literature.

An organic gardener will never use Carbaryl no matter the brand name. I'm
willing to stay open minded about its dangers or safety -- the evidence is
not in its favor but all things are relative. The Tercyl brand (active


MASSIVE SNIPS

OK, just so we are clear on this...I am NOT an organic gardener, I use
chemical ferts all the time, but I do not use Sevin or any of its
derivatives or any any other herbicide or pesticide on my garden or
lawn. Yeah I have crabgrass and other damn things I cannot name- but
when I give my daughter a cherry tomato, I know it's not been dosed
with some damn crap.

Chris
  #50   Report Post  
Old 24-07-2008, 03:19 PM posted to rec.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Mar 2007
Posts: 67
Default Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ?

Billy wrote:

In article
,
"Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:

Paul J. Dudley wrote:

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 22:45:55 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article

,
Charlie wrote:

Hmmm....I wonder how wine was produced
before the advent of carbaryl?

It was pretty good when they used amphoras
and fumarias. But then they severed the wine
in these very pretty lead glazed cups and a
Gothic night descended on Europe. Things
(flavor) started looking up again in the
mid-1600s when cork stoppers came into use.
In the mean, time beer and wine saved Europe
from the main diseases of ground water. The
same function that tea served in the East.

Paul should check with the nearest ag
consultant but my understanding is that
nothing harmful to man can survive
fermentation. All the same, you've been a
naughty boy Paul. I know it wasn't your
intent to bring about the downfall of
Western Civilization (such as it is). You've
got to be careful about unintended
consequences. See that this doesn't happen
again.

I understand that they also burned sulfur
wicks in their casks much
like adding sodium metabisulfite as many (
can't say 'all' - might start another flame
war ) now do.

But ... Yes .. I promise to be more careful
in the future ( .. so I won't start the
world whining again ).

I will chech with the aggies. I have written
gardentech.com ( the company that forced me
to use their dust ) and am waiting their
reply.

= Paul =


Paul, since you are making wine I offer the
following information.

"Organic wine" may be hazardous to your health
- depending on the wine makers practices.

For example, if SO2 is not used, if the pH of
the must is above 3.5, if there is extended
contact with the lees, If cultured wine yeast
and ML bacteria are not used then the
probability of the formation of carcinogens is
enhanced.

Here is a post I contributed to the wine making
news group:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I always look for articles indicating positive
health benefits of drinking wine and indeed
there are many. I recently came across an
article in "Practical Winery & Vineyard" by
Robert Tracy with the heading of "Human health
concerns associated with wine microorganisms"
(pp 96-98).

The partial information I summarize below is
NOT an attempt to start religious wars over
technique or scare anyone but to raise some
concerns that we as wine makers/growers should
know.

Personally, I believe there are "probably" more
health related issues in a can of soda than
some of the material discussed below but
perhaps we can make better wine if we are aware
of some of these facts.

Summary and quotes:

"From a winemaking perspective, there are two
types of compounds produced by wine microbes
that have health implications for the consumer:
biogenic amines and ethyl carbamate.**Biogenic
amines have been shown to cause negative
physiological effects in allergic humans (such
as headaches, nausea, hot flashes), while ethyl
carbamate is considered to be a probably
carcinogen to humans.**The*probable
carcinogenic properties of ethyl carbamate are
based on studies with experimental animals,
there is not direct evidence of it causing
cancer in humans."

"The concentration and type of biogenic amines
vary greatly in wines; however, generally red
wines contain significantly more than white
wines.**In*addition,*there*appears*to*be*a
direct correlation between elevated biogenic
amines in wine, wine spoilage constituents
(such as acetic acid, ethyl acetate, butyric
acid, acetoin, and higher alcohol compounds),
and malolactic fermentation."

Because ethyl carbamate is a probable
carcinogen, it is becoming the focus of
international regulation, and so its formation
must be managed properly both in the vineyard
and during the winemaking process."

"Even though both yeast and bacteria can
generate precursors for ethyl carbamate
formation, urea produced from wine yeast is
thought to be the major precursor."

Factors that affect formation

"Throughout the winemaking process, a whole
host of factors can influence the formation of
biogenic amines including:

1)**initial*microbial*populations*present*on
grapes;

2)**presence*of*precursor*amino*acids*in*grape
juice;

3)**ageing*of*wine*on*wither*yeast*lees*(sur
lie ageing) or lees following malolactic
fermentation;

4)**extended*grape*maceration;

5)**spontaneous*malolactic*fermentation*by
indigenous lactic acid bacteria;

6)**number*of*lactic*acid*bacteria*that*are
decarboxylase-positive:

7)**wine*pH;

8)**concentration*of*sulfur*dioxide*(SO2)
following malolactic fermentation and during
ageing;

9)**winery*sanitation*practices;

10)**yeast*strain;*and

11)**fining*practices*(fining*white*wines*with
bentonite may remove biogenic amines).

Among these factors, it has been demonstrated
that malolactic fermentation is the primary
stage for biogenic amine formation during the
winemaking process.

Ethyl carbamate formation is affected by the
following factors:

1)**argine*content*of*grapes;

2)**concentration*of*ethanol;

3)**nutrient*additions*to*must,*during*both
alcoholic and malolactic fermentaitons;

4)**yeast*straiin;

5)**spontaneous*malolactid*fermentaion*by
indigenous lactic acid bacteria;

6) ageing wine on yeast (lees (sur lie ageing);

7)**temperature*of*iwne*during*ageing*and
shipment;

8)**duration*of*wine*ageing;

9)**wine*pH;*and

10)**wineery*sanitation*practices."

"Recommendations to prevent formation of
biogenic amines and ethyl carbamate

Biogenic Amines

if possible periodically monitor microbial
populations on grapes to determine risk for
biogenic amine producers.

if possible, assess concentration of primary
precursor amino acids in grapes and must.

avoid spontaneous alcoholic fermentations and
use commercial strains of Saccharomyces
cervisiae that lack or have minimal
decarboxylase activity.

Avoid extended ageing of wine on yeast or
malolactic lees.

Try to minimize extended grape maceration.

Avoid spontaneous malolactic fermentations and
use commercial strains of Oenoccus oeni that
lack or have minimal amino acid decarboxylase
activitry.

Try to avoid higher pH wines (above 3.7) since
they allow proliferation of Lactobacillus and
Pediococcus.

When pH of wine is high, lysozyme can be added
to remove the natural lactic acid bacteria.

Immediately following malolactic fermentaion
and during wine ageing, maintain molecular SO2
levels of at least 0.4 to 0.5 ppm to prevent or
minimize growth of lactic acid bacteria.

Maintan good sanitation practices during wine
production.

Ethyl Carbamate

Avoid argine content of 1000 mg/L in juice.

Avoid excessive nitrogen fertilization of
vineyards.

Periodically monitor nitrogen status of vines
and soil.

Test nitrogen status of juice.

Avoid adding excessive nitrogen supplements; do
not add urea.

Use commercial strains of Saccharomyces
cervisiae that are known to produce low levels
of urea (Premier Cuvee (PdM) or Lallemand 71B)
when juice has a high arginine content.

Avoid ageing wine on yeast lees (sur lie
ageing), which can liberate amino acids and
proteins.

Avoid spontaneous malolactic fermentatons and
use commercial strains of Oenoccus oeni that do
not have ability to produce high levels of
citrulline.

Avoid elevated temperatures during ageing and
shipment of wine.

If wines are going to be aged for an extendd
period of time, it is advisable to periodically
monitor ethyl carbamate levels.

Try to avoid higher pH ines (above 3.7) since
they allow proliferation of Lacto bacillus and
Pedioccus.

Immediately following malolactic fermentation
and during wine ageing, maintain molecular SO2
levels of at least 0.4 to 0.5 ppm to prevent or
minimize growth of lactic acid bacteria.

Maintain good sanitation practices during wine
production."

I realize that amateur winemakers do not have
the resources to monitor all of the above but
we can control a good amount of them.

I encourage anyone who is interested in the
topic to pick up a copy of the magazine.**There
are*23 references cited at the end of the
article.**I did not quote the article in the
entirety but tried to summarize the main
points.

Paul


Interesting article, however I suggest you check
with http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~frf/ecintro.html

and download the "Ethyl Carbamate Preventative
Action Manual: English Language Version, PDF
format". It is put out by U.C.Davis. I have no
idea who Robert Tracy is or if he is just trying
to spice up a story.

S U M M A R Y

Avoid excessive nitrogen fertilization in the
vineyard.

Monitor soil nitrogen status.

Monitor vine nitrogen status.

Do not use winter legumes as cover crops if soil
nitrogen status is already high.

Be aware that nitrogen uptake varies strongly
with different cultivars and especially
rootstocks.

Monitor juice nitrogen status.

Do not add excessive nitrogen supplements.

Do not add nitrogen supplements routinely.

Do not add urea as nitrogen supplement.

Avoid juice arginine levels greater than 1000
mg/L.

When choosing among wine yeast strains, avoid
those with high urea excretion characteristics.

Use malo-lactic bacteria with known
characteristics.

Be aware that use of urease preparations cannot
completely eliminate EC formation.

Be aware that must fortification may aggravate
the problem of urea excretion by yeast.

Monitor EC levels of fortification spirit.

Avoid exposure of wine to elevated temperatures
during storage and transport


All of the above true but does not detract or
counter what I have posted.


  #51   Report Post  
Old 24-07-2008, 05:45 PM posted to rec.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Jul 2008
Posts: 503
Default Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ?

In article ,
"Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:

All of the above true but does not detract or
counter what I have posted.


No it doesn't ;o)
--

Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo...eature=related
  #52   Report Post  
Old 24-07-2008, 06:21 PM posted to rec.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Jul 2008
Posts: 503
Default Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ? Sevin is a Certified Organic Pesticide. It can be applied up to 7 days pre harvest on grapes Or how I stopped worrying and learned to love the chemical way..Not

In article
,
Chris wrote:

On Jul 23, 5:55 pm, (paghat) wrote:
In article
, Bill

wrote:
Yeah, I liked that bit about everyone else being so ignorant that the
"correct" reply requried a separate header -- followed by stuff straight
from the vendors' "toxins are good!" literature.

An organic gardener will never use Carbaryl no matter the brand name. I'm
willing to stay open minded about its dangers or safety -- the evidence is
not in its favor but all things are relative. The Tercyl brand (active


MASSIVE SNIPS

OK, just so we are clear on this...I am NOT an organic gardener, I use
chemical ferts all the time, but I do not use Sevin or any of its
derivatives or any any other herbicide or pesticide on my garden or
lawn. Yeah I have crabgrass and other damn things I cannot name- but
when I give my daughter a cherry tomato, I know it's not been dosed
with some damn crap.

Chris


Good for you, that is the first step but pesticides come from the
same petroleum base as the chem ferts. Your cherry tomatoes are
more nutritious without the pesticides and healthier without their
residues. Additionally, the easily accessible nitrogen from chem
ferts is quickly transported and concentrated in the leaves of
your crops, which and makes them desirable to insects. The quality
of your crops will be similar to what you would get from
hydroponics.

The next step is to grow your soil to grow your plants. Chem ferts
are salts and damage the food chains (webs, whatever) in the soil.
There is a symbiotic relationship between the flora and fauna in
the garden soil and the plants that you cultivate which makes for
more nutritious and healthier plants. If you already see a half
dozen worms in a shovel full of soil, your garden is in good shape
and you can keep it that way with alfalfa mulches, green manures
(plants), and cover crops.
--

Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo...eature=related
  #53   Report Post  
Old 26-07-2008, 03:35 AM posted to rec.gardens
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Default Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ?


"Paul J. Dudley" wrote in message
news
Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven dust to my grapevine
due to Japanese Beatle infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ).
I grabbed a handfull at a time and just tossed it across the whole
of the foliage and grape clusters. Here it is mid July and I still
see some rather rich deposits of the dust sitting on the clusters.
As these grapes ( type unknown ) are reaching ripeness they will
no doubt be harvested within the next 2 weeks to make wine. Will
the residual Seven dust pose any health threats at this point ? I've
tried rinsing with a garden hose but to no avail. It is rather "caked"
in some areas. There might have been some moisture on the grapes
when I slung the seven dust causing it to do so.


Paul, don't waste your time with Sevin dust. I recently learned it's been
used so much and for so long the bugs have immunity to it. I believe it
because it did nothing to help control whitefly and spider mites. Water
spraying just increases your water bill because to knock off insect eggs
etc. the force needed would seriously damage the leaves and the adults are
back on the plants before you can turn the water off. This is the first
year we don't have Japanese Beetles, probably because the whitefly and mites
took over the gardens.

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Old 26-07-2008, 03:39 AM posted to rec.gardens
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Default Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ?


"frinjdwelr" wrote in message
...
Japanese beetles are easily knocked into a bowl of water to drown and sure
when they're at peak you have to do it every day but it still beats
poison.


This is utter bullcrap. When tried, they quickly fly away only to come back
in 10 to 15 minutes and pick up where they left off. If one or two end up in
the bowl of water you're lucky. And try that when there are hundreds of
plants involved.

  #55   Report Post  
Old 26-07-2008, 02:18 PM posted to rec.gardens
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Default Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ?

On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 20:39:10 -0500, "Marie Dodge"
wrote:


"frinjdwelr" wrote in message
...
Japanese beetles are easily knocked into a bowl of water to drown and sure
when they're at peak you have to do it every day but it still beats
poison.


This is utter bullcrap. When tried, they quickly fly away only to come back
in 10 to 15 minutes and pick up where they left off. If one or two end up in
the bowl of water you're lucky. And try that when there are hundreds of
plants involved.



Really? I've used a mason jar or mayo jar with 1/2" of water in the
bottom and a drop or two of dishwashing liquid. Maybe one out of 20
will fly away, but most will drop into the soapy water. I can easily
catch 100 beetles in less than 15 minutes. Milky spore is a complete
waste of money.


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Old 26-07-2008, 03:49 PM posted to rec.gardens
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Default Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ?

On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:18:03 -0400, Paul J. Dudley wrote:

Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven dust to my grapevine
due to Japanese Beatle infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ).
I grabbed a handfull at a time and just tossed it across the whole
of the foliage and grape clusters. Here it is mid July and I still
see some rather rich deposits of the dust sitting on the clusters.
As these grapes ( type unknown ) are reaching ripeness they will
no doubt be harvested within the next 2 weeks to make wine. Will
the residual Seven dust pose any health threats at this point ? I've
tried rinsing with a garden hose but to no avail. It is rather "caked"
in some areas. There might have been some moisture on the grapes
when I slung the seven dust causing it to do so.

TIA

Paul


OK .. I said I would put this post to rest due to so much controversy
but I also told someone I would post any reply from the makers of
Sevin-5, so here 'tis:

Mr. Dudley,
Thanks for your question. Sevin is not systemic. Once Sevin has been
applied, it remains effective on plants up to 7 days or until rain or
overhead watering.
The white material you see is the residue, which contains no active
ingredients or chemicals. Water breaks the carbaryl down immediately.
You might try to use a produce wash that can be found in most grocery
stores. This may help remove some of the residue.

Hope this helps! Have a nice day,

J------ R------ * ( name withheld )

Consumer Product Representative
PO Box 24830
Lexington, KY 40524
1-800-969-7200

Go ahead and flame it apart....

= Paul =

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Old 27-07-2008, 08:11 AM posted to rec.gardens
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Default Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ?

In article , "Paul J.
Dudley" wrote:



OK .. I said I would put this post to rest due to so much controversy
but I also told someone I would post any reply from the makers of
Sevin-5, so here 'tis:

Mr. Dudley,
Thanks for your question. Sevin is not systemic. Once Sevin has been
applied, it remains effective on plants up to 7 days or until rain or
overhead watering.
The white material you see is the residue, which contains no active
ingredients or chemicals. Water breaks the carbaryl down immediately.
You might try to use a produce wash that can be found in most grocery
stores. This may help remove some of the residue.

Hope this helps! Have a nice day,

J------ R------ * ( name withheld )

Consumer Product Representative
PO Box 24830
Lexington, KY 40524
1-800-969-7200



Wow. I always expect companies to dissimilate but that stuff's just
outright lying. ALKALINE water quickly breaks down carbaryl. In my region
where water is naturally soft, carbaryl can linger in water for a very
long time, according to the EPA's draft report titled "Carbaryl Health
Advisory." In neither case is it water that breaks it down, but bacteria
in the water shortens the carbaryl halflife. Strange the don't stick to
the best-case scenario possibility, as this outright lying reveals they
can't be trusted.

Because fact is, water does not affect the half-life of carbaryl, neither
immediately nor over time. It has little to nothign to do with the
halflife of carbaryl, and your Consumer Product Representative has just
kicked you in the nuts as a dope who'll believe any old crap, either not
caring enough to even know a truthful answer, or deciding lying to you is
best for their company.

Carbaryl remains at the application site with a half-life of 7 days to 28
days dependant on soil conditions, acidity, alkalinity, and temperature.
At low temperture in low-pH conditions its half-life can extend to 4
months. In wet conditions with lots of the right bacteria, the half-life
can contract to 24 hours.

Carbyral "loss" is primarily through uptake into plants, where it remains,
and secondarily from bacteria in soil (or in ground water). It is regarded
as largely non-toxic in crop plants because the human body excretes or
urinates three-thirds of it pretty much unchanged and the metabolized
remnant is well under anything that could ever be immediately toxic (long
term is another matter), though it can cause nitrosocarbaryl to form in
the stomach, with mutagenic risks the vendors will say is not caused by
carbaryl -- which is true though they leave out the fact that carbaryl is
the cause of the nitrosocarbaryl (source: Sieberg & Eisenbrand in Mutat.
Research 22; Elespuru et al in Nature 247; etc).

Carbaryl is not water soluable (it is soluable in ethanol or petroleum
ether); it is stable in heat and light. It appears on plants as a white or
grey powdery solid (crystaline under a microscope). If you can see it as a
white residue, it is ACTIVE in accordance with its average 7 to 28 day
halflife (longer in cold, low-pH, or low-bacteria conditions), and much of
what ceases to be detectable on the plant will then be taken into the
plant for ingestion by animals or people, to be transformed into "a potent
mutagen" in the stomach.

Carbaryl is not believed to be carcinogenic. However, when it comes in
contact with nitrite it gives rise to N-nitrosocarbaryl, highly mutagenic
at low levels of exposure, but carcinogenic only at high levels of
exposure. Nitrite is a common substance found in gardens, in human saliva,
as a food additive, so essentially any product with carbaryl in it must be
regarded as an INEVITABLE precursor to a toxic mutagenic. Carbaryl per se
has been shown in animal studies to have a harmful effect on chromosomes
and cell division (mitosis), and to damage kidneys and lungs, but not so
far shown to occur in humans.

But a vendor will NEVER say the simplest factual thing: Carbaryl has not
yet proven to be the direct cause of harmful or taxic affects at low
exposures in people, apart from giving rise to potent mutagens if
injested.

If you don't want to eat carbaryl, the only way around it is to never put
in harvestable plants. If you don't want animals to eat it, you won't put
it on anything at all. It's best case scenario is that it'll have an
immediate deadly effect on all honey bees and pollinators and crop yields
will fall dramatically.

-paghat the ratgirl
--
visit my temperate gardening website:
http://www.paghat.com
visit my film reviews website:
http://www.weirdwildrealm.com
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