Hi,

Sorry for the elementary question. Here's my situation:

In the backyard of the house we are buying there is a
lawn (grass) like most other backyards. I want to gradually
convert much of that space, or at least all the portion that
gets good sunlight, to raised beds and do gardening (mostly
edibles).

My credentials as a gardener are...0 years of experience.
So I'm reading a book to help me figure our what I need to
do.

The book explains I should remove the top layer that has
the grass (sod) and set it aside, then excavate to considerable
depth, then through back the sod upside down, then optionally
add a layer of organic matter, and then put back to top soil
I removed during the deep excavation.

I'm thinking that as I build beds, I'll probably want to get
rid of the lawn in the space between them and convert that
space to something that doesn't require maintenance. My
question is whether it would be a good idea to throw the sod
off the inter-bed space into the bed--again, upside down--when
I first build it (that is, together with the sod off the area
where the actual bed is).

Thanks for any advice.

On Sun, 23 Feb 2003 20:18:44 GMT, pgh
wrote:


Hi,

Sorry for the elementary question. Here's my situation:

In the backyard of the house we are buying there is a
lawn (grass) like most other backyards. I want to gradually
convert much of that space, or at least all the portion that
gets good sunlight, to raised beds and do gardening (mostly
edibles).

My credentials as a gardener are...0 years of experience.
So I'm reading a book to help me figure our what I need to
do.

The book explains I should remove the top layer that has
the grass (sod) and set it aside, then excavate to considerable
depth, then through back the sod upside down, then optionally
add a layer of organic matter, and then put back to top soil
I removed during the deep excavation.

I'm thinking that as I build beds, I'll probably want to get
rid of the lawn in the space between them and convert that
space to something that doesn't require maintenance. My
question is whether it would be a good idea to throw the sod
off the inter-bed space into the bed--again, upside down--when
I first build it (that is, together with the sod off the area
where the actual bed is).

Thanks for any advice.


Seems like a awful lot of work for raised beds. Why not build your
bed frames, lay newspaper or whatever over the lawn within the frame
and fill with compost. The soil your lawn is growing on is probably
too dense or thin nutritionally for root vegetables any way. And who
knows what the previous owners sprayed or applied. Between the beds
leave the grass until you decide what you want to replace it with or
else you'll be tracking mud everywhere.

zhan

That would be an ok method for a straight-rows-in-a-rectangle garden. But
for raised beds you really wouldn't have to use any of your existing soil
unless it's really superior soil. In my area, suburban backyard soil is
often messed over during new home construction and there might only be a
thin layer of topsoil at best.

"pgh" wrote in message
...

Hi,

Sorry for the elementary question. Here's my situation:

In the backyard of the house we are buying there is a
lawn (grass) like most other backyards. I want to gradually
convert much of that space, or at least all the portion that
gets good sunlight, to raised beds and do gardening (mostly
edibles).

My credentials as a gardener are...0 years of experience.
So I'm reading a book to help me figure our what I need to
do.

The book explains I should remove the top layer that has
the grass (sod) and set it aside, then excavate to considerable
depth, then through back the sod upside down, then optionally
add a layer of organic matter, and then put back to top soil
I removed during the deep excavation.

I'm thinking that as I build beds, I'll probably want to get
rid of the lawn in the space between them and convert that
space to something that doesn't require maintenance. My
question is whether it would be a good idea to throw the sod
off the inter-bed space into the bed--again, upside down--when
I first build it (that is, together with the sod off the area
where the actual bed is).

Thanks for any advice.

I went back to the book to see if I got the facts right.
It acknowledges that use of the technique, referred to as
"double digging", amounts to a formidable job. It states
that it "is the classic technique for creating raised beds".
It has been in use for 5,000 years. The book is not dogmatic
about this, and it approves of other soil preparation
techniques (but it still leaves you with a feeling that
double-digging is the "right" way).

The book is The Complete Vegetable and Herb Gardener: A Guide
to Growing Your Garden Organically, by Karan Davis Cutler.

"pgh" wrote in message
...
I went back to the book to see if I got the facts right.
It acknowledges that use of the technique, referred to as
"double digging", amounts to a formidable job. It states
that it "is the classic technique for creating raised beds".
It has been in use for 5,000 years. The book is not dogmatic
about this, and it approves of other soil preparation
techniques (but it still leaves you with a feeling that
double-digging is the "right" way).



If I were you I'd read more than one book on raised beds. One of the very
first garden books I read, and this was when he published his first book,
was 'Square Foot Gardening by Mel Bartholomew' ( no jokes about it being
chiseled on a stone tablet, folks). The wonderful part of his method was
that it didn't overwhelm the new and naive gardener. I would highly
recommend you take a look at this book as well as his website if you are
serious about raised beds as your first project.

http://www.squarefootgardening.com/

Like I said, this was one of the first books I read to get started. Over the
years I have tweaked many popular methods to suit me personally but it was a
great foundation.

There are as many ways to raise a garden as raise children. They all don't
work for everyone, the best you can do is get as much info as possible and
then do what you feel is right in your heart, soul, or wherever your spirit
resides. The majority of gardening is NOT rocket science, there really isn't
great tragedy if something fails, you learn "well, that didn't work" and go
on. Seldom are your failures branded on your forehead by rioting crowds. The
most fun is when you actually have something grow that is dicey in your area
and you have made a great success. Take a walk through your neighborhood
and look for that little old gentleman in the baggy pants and tie tucked
into his vest tending his garden and strike up a conversation. Ask questions
of the little lady tending her salad greens and the young child growing his
first pumpkin plants. I made so many garden friends just walking through
neighborhoods or stopping the car as I drove by a wonderful garden with
somebody working in it and accumulated many life times of knowledge. I was
always amazed that the simple question of "What is this plant?" to a total
stranger in their garden would lead to a font of information and many hours
of friendly conversation. To say nothing of the "here, let me give you a
little slip of this to try." Gardeners on a whole are very generous people.

Gardening is more than just digging in the dirt. It is a connection you will
make with people, and yourself, that can be made in no other way,it seems to
have no class, economic, gender, race or any other boundaries for that
matter. Gardeners are gardeners, unto themselves, and you will be short
changing yourself if you stop with the first book or person you talk to.
This group is a prime example of what I'm trying to explain to you. We seem
to be one mixed bag to say the least, but we do have a common interest that
we love to share, not always agreeing but sharing none the less. Through
trial and error, monetary or time constraints, physical limitations,
education, and just pure human laziness we've found what works best for us,
and perhaps it will work best for you or be a stepping stone onto greater
ideas. You should keep an open mind on all techniques and remember that if
there are more than three syllables in an ingredient on a bag of material
the majority of us will be on your ass like stink on manure! :-)

Welcome to rec.gardens and gardening, nice to have you aboard.

Val
"Use what talent you possess:
the woods would be
very silent if no birds sang
except those that sang best."
- Henry Van Dyke

Where are you located, and what kind of grass do you have?

From my understanding, double digging helps avoid hard pan layer,
which helps root formation in some plants, and helps with soil
percolation. I agree this is the optimal way to do it, but it would
have to be a very small area to be worthwhile in my opinion.

On the ones I have done, I first killed the grass (especially if it
was bermuda) then tilled the existing soil, added 4" compost and
tilled again, then built the bed and added prepared soil mix that I
get in bulk to the proper depth. Dont know the scientific benefit of
this, but my thought was to have a soil transition instead of
definitive layers, which I thought would help prevent hard panning.

Good luck,
Bryan

pgh wrote in message ...
I went back to the book to see if I got the facts right.
It acknowledges that use of the technique, referred to as
"double digging", amounts to a formidable job. It states
that it "is the classic technique for creating raised beds".
It has been in use for 5,000 years. The book is not dogmatic
about this, and it approves of other soil preparation
techniques (but it still leaves you with a feeling that
double-digging is the "right" way).

The book is The Complete Vegetable and Herb Gardener: A Guide
to Growing Your Garden Organically, by Karan Davis Cutler.

The book is dogmatic about it. If your soil is loose (sandy or loamy)
you do not have to double dig. The harder your soil is, the more you
have to double-dig. And yes, double-digging is backbreaking. The
result that you want is soil that is loose all the way down to 2
feet.

There are ways to get around it, if you have patience. The best is
probably to go ahead and plant your beds the first year, then once the
plants are up to some size, cover the beds with a few inches of
leaves. Over time (but less or of order two years) the worms will do
your digging (if you have cold winters, they will go way deeper than 2
feet). As long as you replenish the leaves they will keep multiplying
and giving your soil structure. The leaves also are a good mulch, and
they provide modest fertilization. You will have to save them and pile
them in the fall. Manure is a worse mulch and a much better
fertilizer, but does not attract and keep nearly as many worms as
leaves.

Finally, worms do a much better job than a spade at making the small
air pockets that plants need.

Thanks Simy1.

Patience I can definitely have.

To get those leaves, I'm assuming I'll have to wait
till the fall. Are you suggesting then that I resign
myself to have a mediocre first season. That's ok,
but I just want to make sure I understand your
suggestion.

Another question is: is there any downside (or risk)
to promoting the proliferation of worms?


simy1 wrote:

The book is dogmatic about it. If your soil is loose (sandy or loamy)
you do not have to double dig. The harder your soil is, the more you
have to double-dig. And yes, double-digging is backbreaking. The
result that you want is soil that is loose all the way down to 2
feet.

There are ways to get around it, if you have patience. The best is
probably to go ahead and plant your beds the first year, then once the
plants are up to some size, cover the beds with a few inches of
leaves. Over time (but less or of order two years) the worms will do
your digging (if you have cold winters, they will go way deeper than 2
feet). As long as you replenish the leaves they will keep multiplying
and giving your soil structure. The leaves also are a good mulch, and
they provide modest fertilization. You will have to save them and pile
them in the fall. Manure is a worse mulch and a much better
fertilizer, but does not attract and keep nearly as many worms as
leaves.

Finally, worms do a much better job than a spade at making the small
air pockets that plants need.

Thanks Bryan.

My location is zone 6a. I don't know the grass of
the house, or whether pesticides have been applied.
I'll call the current owners and ask them.

I want to do the whole back yard, which is a lot
(I guess that was a pun). But I'll start with one bed,
then another, then another, etc. I guess I could try
doing one with the double digging technique, and see
just how horrible the experience is.

When you threw in the four inches of compost, in which
season did you do that?

And, what is "hard panning"?

I wish I had studied horticulture when I went to
college. Somebody convinced me to do math instead,
and now I'll be paying the price. Still, I can't
wait go get dirty.

bryan lafleur wrote:

Where are you located, and what kind of grass do you have?

From my understanding, double digging helps avoid hard pan layer,
which helps root formation in some plants, and helps with soil
percolation. I agree this is the optimal way to do it, but it would
have to be a very small area to be worthwhile in my opinion.

On the ones I have done, I first killed the grass (especially if it
was bermuda) then tilled the existing soil, added 4" compost and
tilled again, then built the bed and added prepared soil mix that I
get in bulk to the proper depth. Dont know the scientific benefit of
this, but my thought was to have a soil transition instead of
definitive layers, which I thought would help prevent hard panning.

Good luck,
Bryan

Sorry, hard panning is when soil is cultivated a few times to the same
depth( such as tilling at 8"), the layer just below the tilled area
becomes rock hard and restricts permeability and root growth. But
with a one time bed raising, and mostly veggies, that probably wont
concern you.

The soil doesnt freeze where I live, so soil prep can be done at any
time of the year. Optimally I like to till in compost and organic
fertilizer and let it sit for a month or two to let the compost "get
to know the soil", which attracts worms and other critters. This is
not necessary, but it seems to help.

Good luck,
Bryan

pgh wrote in message ...
Thanks Simy1.

Patience I can definitely have.

To get those leaves, I'm assuming I'll have to wait
till the fall. Are you suggesting then that I resign
myself to have a mediocre first season. That's ok,
but I just want to make sure I understand your
suggestion.

You could consider 2 inches of manure, and then you will have a good
first season AND some soil conditioning. Then in the fall you go down
the street and collect all those paper bags full of leaves and pile
them in your backyard for ripening (if you put them directly on the
beds you will invite voles - plus garlic can not push through thick
leaves).

One word of advice: some veggies prefer warmer soil. So for tomatoes
you may want to put the leaves under the plants in, say, June. Leaves
by themselves do not a fertile soil make. You will have to add more
manure, or wood ash, or wood chips, depending on your soil needs.
Otherwise just cover the bed, and when you need to plant a lettuce
sedling just punch a hole through the leaves.


Another question is: is there any downside (or risk)
to promoting the proliferation of worms?



No. Your soil will have high organic content, and worm castings are a
near ideal fertilizer.

Last fall I double dug one side of my fenced garden, to cut the tree
roots
that I was finding in the beds. To avoid further root invasion, I put
down some plastic sheeting before refilling. I am happy to spare you
one such job. But I never dug my beds, and texture-wise my soil is
perfect (if anything, it is too loose to properly support cabbages) -
in time you will learn to recognize "worm crumbs". I tend to rotate
compost/wood chips/grass clippings, manure and leaves - one of these,
2 to 4 inches, every year, and wood ash every year to counteract the
natural acidity.