Every spring I notice at least one or two colonies of bumble bees living
in the garden. They do a fabulous job of pollinating in the early
spring, long before the other pollinators appear. They feast on the
Pulmonaria and Vinca from early April on, and then get busy with the
myriad, sweet-smelling blooms of the wild black currant in mid-month. No
blooms in the garden wants for their attention all season long.

A big clump of ladybugs hibernated somewhere at the base of the plum
tree. They marched out one sunny spring morning and got right to it.
Their children and grandchildren have been controlling the aphids, not
just on the fruit trees and the roses, but in most of the garden as
well.

I grow an abundance of flowers for bees and butterflies on the sunny
south facing slope ... and if you grow them, they will come. The
Monarchs are starting to show up now, fluttering among the echinacea and
the butterfly bushes. Sometimes, in the fall, I see them swarming
overhead before they head south across the lake.

I leave the seed heads in the wildflower slope up for the winter. By
early spring, all the seeds have been eaten by local birds and the
hungry migrants returning from places I'd rather be.

EV

EV in :

Their children and grandchildren have been controlling the aphids, not
just on the fruit trees and the roses, but in most of the garden as
well.

yes, keep them hungry and they'll eat anything.
but keep them away from those cherries when close to rpiening, or they'll
leave you none.

:-)

that's beautiful. thank you.

From: EV
Organization: Bell Sympatico
Newsgroups: rec.gardens.edible,rec.gardens
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 05:31:15 -0400
Subject: Some of the reasons I don't spray pesticides ...

Every spring I notice at least one or two colonies of bumble bees living
in the garden. They do a fabulous job of pollinating in the early
spring, long before the other pollinators appear. They feast on the
Pulmonaria and Vinca from early April on, and then get busy with the
myriad, sweet-smelling blooms of the wild black currant in mid-month. No
blooms in the garden wants for their attention all season long.

A big clump of ladybugs hibernated somewhere at the base of the plum
tree. They marched out one sunny spring morning and got right to it.
Their children and grandchildren have been controlling the aphids, not
just on the fruit trees and the roses, but in most of the garden as
well.

I grow an abundance of flowers for bees and butterflies on the sunny
south facing slope ... and if you grow them, they will come. The
Monarchs are starting to show up now, fluttering among the echinacea and
the butterfly bushes. Sometimes, in the fall, I see them swarming
overhead before they head south across the lake.

I leave the seed heads in the wildflower slope up for the winter. By
early spring, all the seeds have been eaten by local birds and the
hungry migrants returning from places I'd rather be.

EV

In article , Larry Blanchard
wrote:

In article ,
says...
that's beautiful. thank you.

Yes it is. But EV doesn't have a hedge full of yellow jackets and an
allergic wife - I do :-).

I've tried traps and spray cans - Orkin is getting called Monday.

First off, I'm curious, does Orkin come out after midnight? Because if the
nest is assaulted in the daylight hours, most of the wasps won't be in it,
& it will take ghastly amounts of extra-poisonous toxins sprayed more
places than just the nest to get rid of them, & if there is ever going to
be a good chance of anyone getting stung by generally-innocuous wasps, it
will be while the Orkin dude is screwing around the nest.

Yellowjackets are gardeners' friends, as they eat garden-chomping insects.
A single yellow-jacket nest in a garden will be cleaning out aphids,
leafhoppers, beetle larvae, flies, & all manner of garden-munchers at a
fantastic rate. They also disperse trillium seeds, which imitate a meat or
insect odor that causes yellowjackets to cart away the seeds & drop them
elsewhere when they figure out it isn't meat.

Paperwasps abandon their nest after a single use, so their nesting
presence is temporary. If it WERE necessary to move one it could be
wrapped in plastic at night & carted away, as none of the colony will be
outside the nest at night; poisoning would not be necessary.

I've known many people who had serious even life-threatening allergies to
bees or wasps, but none thought the best way to deal with it was to poison
the garden & inevitably their pets, their kids, themselves, & all the
beneficial insects in the vicinity. My grampa had a bee allergy sufficient
that he kept a kit handy in case he was stung, but that didn't keep
great-grampa from keeping honeybees, & while my life overlapped grampa's,
he was never stung that I knew of & never had to use the kit.

Wasps don't have to be nesting in the garden to be in the garden; you'd
have to poison all the surrounding yards if their mere presence incited
such a phobia. The best way to deal with them is personal calmness. You
could offer wasps a greasy chunck of fried chicken & let them crawl all
over your hand in great numbers & the happy little buggers would never
sting you (they might accidentally nibble you if your fingers are greasy
enough to be mistaken for the meat). You could brush them off your
shoulder or off your sandwich with the back of your hand & they wouldn't
sting, though they might dart over your hand to get back on the sandwich.

At a recent lakefront gathering for a Golden Anniversary party, the
primary picnic area had a large colony of ground-wasps nearby. Grandkids &
great-grandkids of all ages were running around; people were eating
shitloads of meat; & the wasps were truly a nuisance trying to get their
share of the food. But even with a dozen rowdy kids running about, &
everyone's hands shooing wasps away from food, not one person was stung, &
the only complaint became that meat-eaters had to go indoors to finish
their meals in peace. I'd frankly still like to get rid of that particular
nest if meat was going to be eaten around there regularly, but it would
never be an allergy issue because those critters wouldn't even sting the
kids who were testing the limits of wasp docility.

They're not highly aggressive. I have lived around yellow jacket nests for
half a century & have never been stung by a paperwasp or ground
yellowjacket. I was once stung by a mud-dobber, but that was because I
leaned against it by accident & it was trying to get loose; mud-dobber
wasps ordinarily won't sting under any circumstance, their stinger being
for hunting much more than defense; they don't even defend their little
mud-nests. As a kid I once laid down under a swarm after a paperwasp nest
had had rocks chucked at it. Several of us kids lay perfectly still &
watched the swarm. At their angriest still it was a cinch not to got
stung.

Ground-dwelling & paper-nest wasps are only aggressive when their nests
are mucked with, so the best way to deal with them is by marking the
location noticeably & giving them some space. Nearly all wasp attacks are
the fault of people attacking the nest, even with freezing aerosols &
pesticides the wasps can still manage to be defensive as death is not
instantaneous. When their nest isn't mucked with, they're very easy to
live with.

There are two understandable reasons to not tolerate a nest; allergy is
not one of them since there'll still be plenty of wasps from elsewhere
nearby. But if a paper nest is built right outside the door, the mere
opening & closing of the door could make the colony feel threatened, so it
would have to be zapped at night with freeze-spray, wrapped in plastic, &
taken away (we had one on our front porch for a season however & the wasps
were so little trouble we failed to notice the papernest on the ceiling
until after the season was over & the nest was abandoned). The second
reason they might not be tolerated is for nesting right by a bar-b-cue or
picnic site. Although not apt to sting they can be so happy about all the
meat people are bringing to them that they will descend dozens at a time
onto every picnic plate & make it hard to eat in peace. If becoming
vegetarian isn't an option, then the picnic-site nest won't be very
tolerable.

But if one is lucky enough to have a nest in a corner of the garden where
one needn't be digging, or high in a tree where the colony is never
threatened, it should be cause for thanks, as they are assisting the
garden every minute they are active.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com

I don't know what part of the planet you live in, but in the Midwest here, the
yellow jackets can sometimes be a big problem. Haven't seen many this year,
but previously, they went after my peaches. I had one good sting when I tried
to pick up
a fallen peach on the ground, and it took a lot of antihistamine to quiet that
one down.

EV also doesn't seem to be growing fruit, or she would not be so complacent
about
apple maggots, plum curcullio's, etc. The only time I stop spraying is when
the blossoms are out, since I don't want to kill my pollinators (bees).

Sherwin Dubren

paghat wrote:

In article , Larry Blanchard
wrote:

In article ,
says...
that's beautiful. thank you.

Yes it is. But EV doesn't have a hedge full of yellow jackets and an
allergic wife - I do :-).

I've tried traps and spray cans - Orkin is getting called Monday.

First off, I'm curious, does Orkin come out after midnight? Because if the
nest is assaulted in the daylight hours, most of the wasps won't be in it,
& it will take ghastly amounts of extra-poisonous toxins sprayed more
places than just the nest to get rid of them, & if there is ever going to
be a good chance of anyone getting stung by generally-innocuous wasps, it
will be while the Orkin dude is screwing around the nest.

Yellowjackets are gardeners' friends, as they eat garden-chomping insects.
A single yellow-jacket nest in a garden will be cleaning out aphids,
leafhoppers, beetle larvae, flies, & all manner of garden-munchers at a
fantastic rate. They also disperse trillium seeds, which imitate a meat or
insect odor that causes yellowjackets to cart away the seeds & drop them
elsewhere when they figure out it isn't meat.

Paperwasps abandon their nest after a single use, so their nesting
presence is temporary. If it WERE necessary to move one it could be
wrapped in plastic at night & carted away, as none of the colony will be
outside the nest at night; poisoning would not be necessary.

I've known many people who had serious even life-threatening allergies to
bees or wasps, but none thought the best way to deal with it was to poison
the garden & inevitably their pets, their kids, themselves, & all the
beneficial insects in the vicinity. My grampa had a bee allergy sufficient
that he kept a kit handy in case he was stung, but that didn't keep
great-grampa from keeping honeybees, & while my life overlapped grampa's,
he was never stung that I knew of & never had to use the kit.

Wasps don't have to be nesting in the garden to be in the garden; you'd
have to poison all the surrounding yards if their mere presence incited
such a phobia. The best way to deal with them is personal calmness. You
could offer wasps a greasy chunck of fried chicken & let them crawl all
over your hand in great numbers & the happy little buggers would never
sting you (they might accidentally nibble you if your fingers are greasy
enough to be mistaken for the meat). You could brush them off your
shoulder or off your sandwich with the back of your hand & they wouldn't
sting, though they might dart over your hand to get back on the sandwich.

At a recent lakefront gathering for a Golden Anniversary party, the
primary picnic area had a large colony of ground-wasps nearby. Grandkids &
great-grandkids of all ages were running around; people were eating
shitloads of meat; & the wasps were truly a nuisance trying to get their
share of the food. But even with a dozen rowdy kids running about, &
everyone's hands shooing wasps away from food, not one person was stung, &
the only complaint became that meat-eaters had to go indoors to finish
their meals in peace. I'd frankly still like to get rid of that particular
nest if meat was going to be eaten around there regularly, but it would
never be an allergy issue because those critters wouldn't even sting the
kids who were testing the limits of wasp docility.

They're not highly aggressive. I have lived around yellow jacket nests for
half a century & have never been stung by a paperwasp or ground
yellowjacket. I was once stung by a mud-dobber, but that was because I
leaned against it by accident & it was trying to get loose; mud-dobber
wasps ordinarily won't sting under any circumstance, their stinger being
for hunting much more than defense; they don't even defend their little
mud-nests. As a kid I once laid down under a swarm after a paperwasp nest
had had rocks chucked at it. Several of us kids lay perfectly still &
watched the swarm. At their angriest still it was a cinch not to got
stung.

Ground-dwelling & paper-nest wasps are only aggressive when their nests
are mucked with, so the best way to deal with them is by marking the
location noticeably & giving them some space. Nearly all wasp attacks are
the fault of people attacking the nest, even with freezing aerosols &
pesticides the wasps can still manage to be defensive as death is not
instantaneous. When their nest isn't mucked with, they're very easy to
live with.

There are two understandable reasons to not tolerate a nest; allergy is
not one of them since there'll still be plenty of wasps from elsewhere
nearby. But if a paper nest is built right outside the door, the mere
opening & closing of the door could make the colony feel threatened, so it
would have to be zapped at night with freeze-spray, wrapped in plastic, &
taken away (we had one on our front porch for a season however & the wasps
were so little trouble we failed to notice the papernest on the ceiling
until after the season was over & the nest was abandoned). The second
reason they might not be tolerated is for nesting right by a bar-b-cue or
picnic site. Although not apt to sting they can be so happy about all the
meat people are bringing to them that they will descend dozens at a time
onto every picnic plate & make it hard to eat in peace. If becoming
vegetarian isn't an option, then the picnic-site nest won't be very
tolerable.

But if one is lucky enough to have a nest in a corner of the garden where
one needn't be digging, or high in a tree where the colony is never
threatened, it should be cause for thanks, as they are assisting the
garden every minute they are active.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com

In article , sherwindu
wrote:

I don't know what part of the planet you live in, but in the Midwest here, the
yellow jackets can sometimes be a big problem. Haven't seen many this year,
but previously, they went after my peaches. I had one good sting when I tried
to pick up
a fallen peach on the ground, and it took a lot of antihistamine to quiet that
one down.

EV also doesn't seem to be growing fruit, or she would not be so complacent
about
apple maggots, plum curcullio's, etc. The only time I stop spraying is when
the blossoms are out, since I don't want to kill my pollinators (bees).

Sherwin Dubren

More & more orchards are going organic. Clearly your love-affair with
deadly toxins all over your fruit isn't necessary, so yr just foolin'
yourself to adhere to slogans of the 1950s when DDT was heralded as the
savior of the planet. One of the things the organic orchards encourage is
a healthy wasp population, & don't worry too much that wasps do also feed
on fruit that has already fallen to the ground & burst open. It's true,
though, that chemical-dependent non-organic gardens so screw up the
balance in their orchards that they end up with MORE harmful insects &
thus need MORE toxic chemicals.

A study conducted by Washington State University from 1994 to 1999, &
reported in NATURE & elsewhere, showed conclusively that orchard
productivity was greater in organic farms than for those which depended on
pesticides & other chemicals. Furthermore, in taste tests for the organic
& non-organic, the organic fruits were the hands-down winners.

In the WSU studies, the organic group did not use synthetic pesticides or
fertilizer, but made use of organic compost, mulch, pheromone-mating
disruption of harmful insects, Bacillus thuringiensis, & hand-thinning of
fruit. The non-organic farms used a conventional array of synthetic
fertilizers & pesticides (inclusive of herbicides) & chemical fruit
thinners.

The study concluded that organic orchards ranked #1 for environmental AND
economic sustainability. Larger crops sold for more money from the organic
farmers; the non-organic farmers not only ended up with smaller & inferior
harvests that earned them less money, but they had higher costs from all
those ghastly chemicals.

A similar study on organic vineyards was conducted by Cornell University.
One of their organic techniques (to control harmful insects) was to
maximize the population of predatory wasps. Similar studies in Vermont
corn crops, & Idaho potato crops, found organic methods of pest control
completely effective. Yet another WSU study of pear orchards found that
harmful insects in the orchard were controlable by not mowing the
surrounding fields so often, as vibrant meadows were attractive habitats
for such beneficial insects as, ahem, wasps.

As a wonderful bonus, the organic farmers all report that insect pests
become fewer year by year -- whyich is not true for the chemical-reliant
planet-poisoners.

That's just the science conducted in the field with real orchards, not one
person freaked out about wasps & convinced the wasps will get all their
fruit if the poisons are insufficient.

So when I hear someone claiming the wasps are so horrid they have no
choice but to poison their orchards, then pretending that stopping for a
couple weeks while there are flowers is all it takes to not harm bees, I
don't give them much credibility.

This is also why "conventional" chemical-reliant orchards are selling out
& letting their land be carved up for development, but ORGANIC orchards
are the fastest growing segment segment of US, Canadian, & European
agriculture.

So to paraphrase you, I don't know where on the planet yhou've been, but
not in a healthy orchard lately. And thanks for the warning that you
harvest your peaches off the ground -- that'd make yours one of the e-coli
orchards besides toxic as all hell!

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com

In article , Larry Blanchard
wrote:


I'm more concerned about the antibiotic-resistant bacteria we're
breeding with all the "antibacterial" products on the market today than
I am about killing a few thousand insects - there's no shortage.

Medical issues unrelated to gardening are important but less important for
On Topic discussion here.

As for no shortage of beneficial insects, you need to update your
knowledge on the pollinator population in North America, the alarming
decline of both wild & domestic bee populations, the extinctions of
butterflies, to the point that in large wild expanses native plants are
having trouble fruiting & reproducing, while in some suburban settings,
due mainly to pesticides, pollinators are frequently too few for garden
fruit production to occur at all.

And it turns out the the only insects for which there is not now nor ever
will be a shortage are the harmful ones that are all that remain when
predator insects & pollinator insects are eradicated. And it just never
had to happen, since all the field studies show that correct organic
principles have better outcomes for gardening & fruit production.

Though as you imply, it is also true the coming world-wide tuberculosis
outbreak is going to make any concern about deadly agricultural practices,
extinction of all wildlife & destruction of forests & waterways, &
unhealthy gardens, all appear rather inconsequentle if most of us start
coughing up bits of our lungs & gasping to death. Then again, it was our
misguided belief that we could pick & choose what on the planet was
permitted to continue to exist that pretty much guarantees we won't exist.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com

Hey Rat Girl,
I am sorry I don't belong to your church of the organics. I have visited organic
orchards, and see a lot of spoiled fruit on the ground. I have tried organic
sprays, and from my experience, they don't work. I loose very little fruit to
insect damage.
There is no good organic spray for Apple Maggot, etc. The organic sprays are a pain

to use. For example, Surround leaves an ugly film on the fruit, which would make
insect damage almost preferable. Organic sprays and other preventatives have a long
way to go to get me to use them. Having a small backyard orchard, I value ALL of my
fruit, and am not willing to sacrifice a good portion of it on the alter of
organics.

Sherwin D.

paghat wrote:

In article , sherwindu
wrote:

I don't know what part of the planet you live in, but in the Midwest here, the
yellow jackets can sometimes be a big problem. Haven't seen many this year,
but previously, they went after my peaches. I had one good sting when I tried
to pick up
a fallen peach on the ground, and it took a lot of antihistamine to quiet that
one down.

EV also doesn't seem to be growing fruit, or she would not be so complacent
about
apple maggots, plum curcullio's, etc. The only time I stop spraying is when
the blossoms are out, since I don't want to kill my pollinators (bees).

Sherwin Dubren

More & more orchards are going organic.

And plenty of them are going out of business.

Clearly your love-affair with
deadly toxins all over your fruit isn't necessary, so yr just foolin'
yourself to adhere to slogans of the 1950s when DDT was heralded as the
savior of the planet. One of the things the organic orchards encourage is
a healthy wasp population, & don't worry too much that wasps do also feed
on fruit that has already fallen to the ground & burst open. It's true,
though, that chemical-dependent non-organic gardens so screw up the
balance in their orchards that they end up with MORE harmful insects &
thus need MORE toxic chemicals.

You are in a dream world if you think the helpful insects can stop these pests.
These wasps do not go after my fallen fruit, as I do a good job of cleaning that
up. They punch holes in the fruit on the tree, and go at it.



A study conducted by Washington State University from 1994 to 1999, &
reported in NATURE & elsewhere, showed conclusively that orchard
productivity was greater in organic farms than for those which depended on
pesticides & other chemicals.

I don't believe it. I personally know organic orchards where they loose a
good portion of their fruit.

Furthermore, in taste tests for the organic
& non-organic, the organic fruits were the hands-down winners.

How can pesticides effect the taste of the fruit? On the contrary, some
organic orchards are limiting their selection of fruit to varieties with more
resistance to pests and fungicides. However, these varieties are not the
very best tasting of those available. Unfortunately, it seems like the best
tasting fruit has the most susceptibility.





In the WSU studies, the organic group did not use synthetic pesticides or
fertilizer, but made use of organic compost, mulch, pheromone-mating
disruption of harmful insects, Bacillus thuringiensis, & hand-thinning of
fruit. The non-organic farms used a conventional array of synthetic
fertilizers & pesticides (inclusive of herbicides) & chemical fruit
thinners.

The study concluded that organic orchards ranked #1 for environmental AND
economic sustainability. Larger crops sold for more money from the organic
farmers; the non-organic farmers not only ended up with smaller & inferior
harvests that earned them less money, but they had higher costs from all
those ghastly chemicals.

Thats because the public is being bambozeled into thinking that organically
grown fruit is so much more healthful that the consumer winds up paying
sometimes double the price for it. Most of these pesticides are burn't off
by the sun. Also, anyone with brains will wash all the fruit they grow or
buy, even if it claims to be organically grown. I find the organically grown
fruits and vegetables in my stores is not worth the premium prices asked. I
just do a good job of washing it. The fruit I grow is controlled so that I don't

spray trees that are due for picking in the next few weeks.



A similar study on organic vineyards was conducted by Cornell University.
One of their organic techniques (to control harmful insects) was to
maximize the population of predatory wasps. Similar studies in Vermont
corn crops, & Idaho potato crops, found organic methods of pest control
completely effective. Yet another WSU study of pear orchards found that
harmful insects in the orchard were controlable by not mowing the
surrounding fields so often, as vibrant meadows were attractive habitats
for such beneficial insects as, ahem, wasps.

If you think that nature will take care of things for us, just go into a wooded
area where you will find wild fruit trees, or those from a deserted orchard, and
look at the fruit condition. It is usually attacked like crazy.



As a wonderful bonus, the organic farmers all report that insect pests
become fewer year by year -- whyich is not true for the chemical-reliant
planet-poisoners.

Not in my neighborhood.



That's just the science conducted in the field with real orchards, not one
person freaked out about wasps & convinced the wasps will get all their
fruit if the poisons are insufficient.

It's not just the wasps that are the problem. In fact they are usually one of
the lesser pests. You will be happy to know I use 'organic' traps to catch
them with apple juice as a lure. See, I am not close minded about organics,
but I think they can only solve part of the problem.



So when I hear someone claiming the wasps are so horrid they have no
choice but to poison their orchards, then pretending that stopping for a
couple weeks while there are flowers is all it takes to not harm bees, I
don't give them much credibility.

The bees are most susceptible to harm when they are feeding on the pollen
from fruit blossoms. I have never found any dead bees around my trees.



This is also why "conventional" chemical-reliant orchards are selling out
& letting their land be carved up for development, but ORGANIC orchards
are the fastest growing segment segment of US, Canadian, & European
agriculture.

Possibly because there are big bucks now in selling overpriced organic products.



So to paraphrase you, I don't know where on the planet yhou've been, but
not in a healthy orchard lately. And thanks for the warning that you
harvest your peaches off the ground -- that'd make yours one of the e-coli
orchards besides toxic as all hell!

I will match my home orchard any day to yours, because there are other
ways to contaminate the area, like not keeping it clean.



-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com

sherwindu wrote in message ...
Hey Rat Girl,
I am sorry I don't belong to your church of the organics. I have visited organic
orchards, and see a lot of spoiled fruit on the ground. I have tried organic
sprays, and from my experience, they don't work. I loose very little fruit to
insect damage.
There is no good organic spray for Apple Maggot, etc. The organic sprays are a pain

to use. For example, Surround leaves an ugly film on the fruit, which would make
insect damage almost preferable. Organic sprays and other preventatives have a long
way to go to get me to use them. Having a small backyard orchard, I value ALL of my
fruit, and am not willing to sacrifice a good portion of it on the alter of
organics.

Sherwin D.


I do believe that things are different in different parts of the
country. On the west coast, I have seen unsprayed plum and apple trees
from Seattle to the Bay Area (including Portland and Eugene) producing
prolifically. In the Bay Area itself, I have seen countless citrus,
also unsprayed. Evidently the climate does some things to a variety of
pests, or simply the apple trees in those urban areas are too few and
far between for apple maggots to prosper. I do have maggots in my two
apple trees in SE MI, and I just ignore the trees because anyway there
are numerous apple trees about 300 yards away (well within range).

For many diseases, it is clear that a fat layer of wood chips, plus
some manure every now and again, rock dust and wood ash occasionally,
vastly improves the tree resistance. I just met a guy who gardens in
Hawaii, which is disease hell. he has a backyard orchard with over 30
fruit trees/shrubs, and he does nothing to any of them except feed the
soil (well, prune too). I have myself several pear trees, also
unsprayed, which produce 50% clean fruit - good enough for me. But the
Midwest seems to be worse than the West Coast as far as fruit pests.

In article , sherwindu
wrote:

Many very odd things in what you wrote, bordering on phobic.

Hey Rat Girl,
I am sorry I don't belong to your church of the organics.

That you find better agricultural practices a religion indicates you are
not thinking rationally to start with. Your previous admission that you
spray CONSTANTLY except for that brief time when the orchard is blooming
shows how extreme your case is. I wouldn't call your own behavior cultic,
merely dangerouslky mnisguided.

I have visited organic
orchards, and see a lot of spoiled fruit on the ground.

Of course fruit falls to the ground. Unlike your orchard, most farmers do
not HARVEST from the ground. You said explicitely that the wasps that
attack fruits on the ground is the reason you have to poison your orchard
continuously. Wasps feed & drink at the wounds of damaged fruits, yes, but
worse, fruits harvested after they fall are a common source of of e-coli.

I have tried organic
sprays, and from my experience, they don't work.

Organic principles does not mean a quick fix spray. You clearly don't know
squat about the topic, & it's unfortunate for you & the helath of your
family, your neighbors, your environment. Organic would define the way you
mulch, the way you mow or don't mow nearby meadows, the types of predator
inesects you encourage from the wild or introduce, PROPERLY TIMED
bacterial sprays, much else that is the reason the organic fruit farmers
have repeatedly been shown in university studies to produce fruits larger,
tastier, & more numerous than chemical-reliant farmers.

I loose very little fruit to
insect damage.

By killing everything in sight & spraying continuously. Great.

There is no good organic spray for Apple Maggot, etc.

You're only thinking alternatives to poisons aren't poisonous enough,
because you're fabulouslky ignorant of organic methods. Otherwise you'd
already know most organic fruit growers do not have apple maggot or plum
curculio, the ONLY orchard problems that have no after-the-fact fix that
is organic. A properly cared for fully-system organic approach does not
allow for the mass-flourishing of a single species of insect in the first
place.

With a healthy predator insect population & a proper clean-up problem at
the end of each harvest month, your concern about there being no organic
sprays for apple maggot does not even apply.

With YOUR system then perhaps it is a perpetual worry -- use of poisons
breeds reliance on poisons. For these pests afflict non-organic gardeners
to a much higher degree & the real threat posed to organic growers would
be neighbors such as yourself whose trees have an increased likelihood of
introducing diseases into a larger area.

Your taking "preventative" actions by spraying toxins continuously except
for a brief time of flower wouldn't even be a chemical-sucking hilljack
grower's answer to apple maggot -- not if they were in their right mind.

Apple maggots can be fully controlled by organic methods, just not by
organic sprays. The method is one of the least invasive imaginable: do NOT
leave unharvested fruit on the the trees through winter, & do NOT leave
apples on the ground to rot & become breeding factories. Unsalable fruit
should be heat-composted. Because apple maggots harbor in winter fruits &
emerge in spring, that first generation will not exist in properly
maintained organic orchards. And as you have admitted to harvesting even
the e-coli-ridden fruits off the ground, you shouldn't have apple maggots.

They can still be worrisome because of the bad behaviors of neighboring
orchards. When BAD growers introduce these diseases to finer orchards next
door, the back-up organic method (sticky-traps shaped like the fuit to be
protected) is not the world's best fix, it is true, & some organic growers
unfortunatley prefer to not sell organic fruit that year. But a community
of growers who all do it right & do not permit fallen fruit to harbor
maggots through the winter won't have to make this sorry-ass decision.

Other organic controls for apple maggot includes fruit thinning, which has
the added benefit of larger tastier fruits that remain, & the majority of
commercial orchards do fruit thinning anyway because shitloads of inferior
fruits are not marketable for anything but the low-end for juice, or hog
food. Some do the thinning by hand, chemical-reliant growers have chemical
methods of doing it, & the organic alternative to the chemical method is a
fish oil & lime sulfur combination -- all methods of thinning increase
fruit size.

But even in a worst-case scenario, the method you outlined as your method
would NEVER be necessary because of two pests difficult to eradicate after
bad agricultural practices have helped establish them in an orchard. A
"break" from organic principles would be brief & minimimally invasive. The
"low spray" technique is unfortunate but some growers use it as a fallback
position, though it does harm the marketable price of the fruit thus
treated in that year. Organically approved late-season sprays like Entrust
do work well on apple maggots, but only when used in concert with year-end
ground clean-up, & early season use of kaolin (Surround). It remains that
in the majority of organic orchards, unless there's someone right next
door doing it very wrong, these additional methods won't be necessary.

The organic sprays are a pain
to use. For example, Surround leaves an ugly film on the fruit, which would
make insect damage almost preferable.

This certainly is not true with proper choices & proper timing, so you've
just shown again you don't know what you're doing. But certainly if by
"pain" you mean they only work if you're knowledgeable about organic
methods, then yes, you're right.

Organic sprays and other preventatives have a long
way to go to get me to use them.

Despite studies such as conducted at Cornell & Washington State U. that
show the present state of organic orchard methods producese more fruit,
tastier fruit, the preferred fruits in the marketplace, you're going to
stick with methods that are known to be inferior for the quality & vallue
of the harvest. You prefer inferior fruit, toxic fruit, fruit that far
fewer people would want to purchase or eat if they knew what you were up
to. And you'd rather hitch your waggon to a dwindling & failing
argricultural system & avoid the fastest growing & most successful segment
of agriculture today.

Some farmers growing annual vegetable crops have to make concessions in
order cash in on the growing organics market, but orchard fruit growers
gain on every level, because each year organic methods are followed, the
orchard becomes healthier & produces better.

Having a small backyard orchard, I value ALL of my
fruit, and am not willing to sacrifice a good portion of it on the alter of
organics.

Sherwin D.

Back yard amateurs are the worst enemies of professional, qualified,
knowledgeable organic growers. Your toxins spread into finer orchards; you
are more apt to spread diseases; you are responsible for the implosion of
pollinator & predator insect populations. You also risk the health & lives
of everyone who eats fruits that developed in what you admitted was
continuous chemical spraying except during the brief time of flowering.

If the science didn't support these statements then your likening organic
gardening to a church with an alter for sacrifices would apply. But these
are not things that need be taken on faith. Whereas your belief system is
not supported by the faith, does require faith in lieu of reason, & does
cause human sacrifice. So if being religioius is as big an insult as you
would have it, you have just insulted ourself by projecting.

If you love gardening, if you love your orchard, at least LEARN what the
organic methods really are before passing judgement on things you have
rejected out of hand without a lick of knowledge.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com

In article ,
wrote:

WAIT!!!! here's yet another anti-pesticide fantatic!!! (although,
personally, i'd rather be called totally organic and natural, thank you
veddy much.

against the advice of all my horticulture (NO!! that does NOT mean the
raising of hortas) teachers, i ran a terrific herbal and tropical fruit
greenhouse in oregon for almost 6 years. i used the yellow stickies,
ladybeetles, preying manti, and i even brought in newts to eat "bad"
buggies. i never ever once used any chemical spray, including those which
are called "natural" like pyrethrin. to me, ANY substance which can kill
6-leggers, will also kill 2 and 4 leggers!!!

anti-pesticide fantatics of the garden world.....LET US JOIN TOGETHER!!!
(and pace the place near madison square garden) ;o)

Oh god I'd love to have a greenhouse with a population of newts wandering
about in it! Were they Oregon roughskinned newts? I've kept a few in
vivariums, they get really tame.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com

wrote:
WAIT!!!! here's yet another anti-pesticide fantatic!!! (although,
personally, i'd rather be called totally organic and natural, thank you
veddy much.

against the advice of all my horticulture (NO!! that does NOT mean the
raising of hortas) teachers, i ran a terrific herbal and tropical fruit
greenhouse in oregon for almost 6 years. i used the yellow stickies,
ladybeetles, preying manti, and i even brought in newts to eat "bad"
buggies. i never ever once used any chemical spray, including those which
are called "natural" like pyrethrin. to me, ANY substance which can kill
6-leggers, will also kill 2 and 4 leggers!!!

anti-pesticide fantatics of the garden world.....LET US JOIN TOGETHER!!!
(and pace the place near madison square garden) ;o)


Cretin.

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 16:50:06 GMT, wrote:

i never ever once used any chemical spray, including those which
are called "natural" like pyrethrin. to me, ANY substance which can kill
6-leggers, will also kill 2 and 4 leggers!!!
Yet 16 years in the field and have never seen the case :/

anti-pesticide fantatics of the garden world.....LET US JOIN TOGETHER!!!

only if it is a news group with "organic" in the title J/K we
likes the diversity....Can't we all just plant along!!!



Lar. (to e-mail, get rid of the BUGS!!


It is said that the early bird gets the worm,
but it is the second mouse that gets the cheese.

paghat wrote:

In article , sherwindu
wrote:

Many very odd things in what you wrote, bordering on phobic.

Hey Rat Girl,
I am sorry I don't belong to your church of the organics.

That you find better agricultural practices a religion indicates you are
not thinking rationally to start with.

No, no! You obviously missed the irony of my statement. What I meant was
you pursue this organic kick like a religion.

Your previous admission that you
spray CONSTANTLY except for that brief time when the orchard is blooming
shows how extreme your case is. I wouldn't call your own behavior cultic,
merely dangerouslky mnisguided.

First of all, I spray in about 3 week intervals, during the fruiting season,
aside from
dormant oil in early spring. I think you have your own flavor of extremism
bordering
on your cult of eco-purity.



I have visited organic
orchards, and see a lot of spoiled fruit on the ground.

Of course fruit falls to the ground. Unlike your orchard, most farmers do
not HARVEST from the ground.

I do not harvest from the ground. I will occasionally pick up a fruit which
has fallen
which does not look attacked by either insects or critters.

You said explicitely that the wasps that
attack fruits on the ground is the reason you have to poison your orchard
continuously. Wasps feed & drink at the wounds of damaged fruits, yes, but
worse, fruits harvested after they fall are a common source of of e-coli.

I don't know about your orchard, but I do a daily patrol and clean up any fruit
on the ground. Most of it goes on the compost pile, or the garbage if it looks
like it has some kind of infection.



I have tried organic
sprays, and from my experience, they don't work.

Organic principles does not mean a quick fix spray. You clearly don't know
squat about the topic, & it's unfortunate for you & the helath of your
family, your neighbors, your environment.

Why don't you climb off your soapbox.

Organic would define the way you
mulch, the way you mow or don't mow nearby meadows, the types of predator
inesects you encourage from the wild or introduce, PROPERLY TIMED
bacterial sprays, much else that is the reason the organic fruit farmers
have repeatedly been shown in university studies to produce fruits larger,
tastier, & more numerous than chemical-reliant farmers.

I don't know about the chemical-reliant farmers, but I will match up my fruit
against any organic gardener for taste, size, etc. Most organic gardeners won't

grow the heritage type fruits I grow, because they are so susceptible to attack.



I loose very little fruit to
insect damage.

By killing everything in sight & spraying continuously. Great.

Yes, when I put in many hours of taking care of these trees, I don't want
to see the results go to pot.



There is no good organic spray for Apple Maggot, etc.

You're only thinking alternatives to poisons aren't poisonous enough,
because you're fabulouslky ignorant of organic methods. Otherwise you'd
already know most organic fruit growers do not have apple maggot or plum
curculio,

Are you making this up?????

the ONLY orchard problems that have no after-the-fact fix that
is organic. A properly cared for fully-system organic approach does not
allow for the mass-flourishing of a single species of insect in the first
place.

And you call me phobic?



With a healthy predator insect population & a proper clean-up problem at
the end of each harvest month, your concern about there being no organic
sprays for apple maggot does not even apply.

With YOUR system then perhaps it is a perpetual worry -- use of poisons
breeds reliance on poisons. For these pests afflict non-organic gardeners
to a much higher degree & the real threat posed to organic growers would
be neighbors such as yourself whose trees have an increased likelihood of
introducing diseases into a larger area.

Your taking "preventative" actions by spraying toxins continuously except
for a brief time of flower wouldn't even be a chemical-sucking hilljack
grower's answer to apple maggot -- not if they were in their right mind.

Apple maggots can be fully controlled by organic methods, just not by
organic sprays.

Baloney!

The method is one of the least invasive imaginable: do NOT
leave unharvested fruit on the the trees through winter, & do NOT leave
apples on the ground to rot & become breeding factories. Unsalable fruit
should be heat-composted. Because apple maggots harbor in winter fruits &
emerge in spring, that first generation will not exist in properly
maintained organic orchards. And as you have admitted to harvesting even
the e-coli-ridden fruits off the ground, you shouldn't have apple maggots.

As previously mentioned, my orchard is inspected daily and no fruit is left
on the ground, and still these pests come. My mulch pile heats up nicely, so
I don't think they propagate there. I never admitted to harvesting
e-coli-ridden
fruits off the ground.



They can still be worrisome because of the bad behaviors of neighboring
orchards. When BAD growers introduce these diseases to finer orchards next
door, the back-up organic method (sticky-traps shaped like the fuit to be
protected) is not the world's best fix, it is true, & some organic growers
unfortunatley prefer to not sell organic fruit that year. But a community
of growers who all do it right & do not permit fallen fruit to harbor
maggots through the winter won't have to make this sorry-ass decision.

Keeping a clean orchard doesn't work for me. I'm not one of those BAD BAD
growers.



Other organic controls for apple maggot includes fruit thinning, which has
the added benefit of larger tastier fruits that remain, & the majority of
commercial orchards do fruit thinning anyway because shitloads of inferior
fruits are not marketable for anything but the low-end for juice, or hog
food. Some do the thinning by hand, chemical-reliant growers have chemical
methods of doing it, & the organic alternative to the chemical method is a
fish oil & lime sulfur combination -- all methods of thinning increase
fruit size.

I do extensive thinning, as well.



But even in a worst-case scenario, the method you outlined as your method
would NEVER be necessary because of two pests difficult to eradicate after
bad agricultural practices have helped establish them in an orchard. A
"break" from organic principles would be brief & minimimally invasive. The
"low spray" technique is unfortunate but some growers use it as a fallback
position, though it does harm the marketable price of the fruit thus
treated in that year. Organically approved late-season sprays like Entrust
do work well on apple maggots, but only when used in concert with year-end
ground clean-up, & early season use of kaolin (Surround). It remains that
in the majority of organic orchards, unless there's someone right next
door doing it very wrong, these additional methods won't be necessary.

The organic sprays are a pain
to use. For example, Surround leaves an ugly film on the fruit, which would
make insect damage almost preferable.

This certainly is not true with proper choices & proper timing, so you've
just shown again you don't know what you're doing.

Have you ever had to clean up the Surround junk off your fruit?

But certainly if by
"pain" you mean they only work if you're knowledgeable about organic
methods, then yes, you're right.

Organic sprays and other preventatives have a long
way to go to get me to use them.

Despite studies such as conducted at Cornell & Washington State U. that
show the present state of organic orchard methods producese more fruit,
tastier fruit, the preferred fruits in the marketplace, you're going to
stick with methods that are known to be inferior for the quality & vallue
of the harvest.

Can you supply specific document sources, or else I'm going to think that
you are making this all up?

You prefer inferior fruit, toxic fruit, fruit that far
fewer people would want to purchase or eat if they knew what you were up
to. And you'd rather hitch your waggon to a dwindling & failing
argricultural system & avoid the fastest growing & most successful segment
of agriculture today.

I'll match my fruit any day against an organic gardener.



Some farmers growing annual vegetable crops have to make concessions in
order cash in on the growing organics market, but orchard fruit growers
gain on every level, because each year organic methods are followed, the
orchard becomes healthier & produces better.

Having a small backyard orchard, I value ALL of my
fruit, and am not willing to sacrifice a good portion of it on the alter of
organics.

Sherwin D.

Back yard amateurs are the worst enemies of professional, qualified,
knowledgeable organic growers. Your toxins spread into finer orchards; you
are more apt to spread diseases; you are responsible for the implosion of
pollinator & predator insect populations. You also risk the health & lives
of everyone who eats fruits that developed in what you admitted was
continuous chemical spraying except during the brief time of flowering.

I may be a backyard grower, but I'm not an amateur. I'll match my knowledge
of fruit growing against yours any day. You sound like an elitist snob,
certainly
someone who thinks they know it all. I don't distribute contaminated fruit. I
allow the chemicals to subside naturally in the sun before harvesting, and I
carefully wash any fruit I give away, or tell people to do so. The washing
is just an added precaution, since most of the chemicals have dissipated by
the time I pick the fruit.



If the science didn't support these statements then your likening organic
gardening to a church with an alter for sacrifices would apply. But these
are not things that need be taken on faith. Whereas your belief system is
not supported by the faith, does require faith in lieu of reason, & does
cause human sacrifice. So if being religioius is as big an insult as you
would have it, you have just insulted ourself by projecting.

It's not the science I'm against, but your trying to cram this stuff down our
throats, like it's the gospel.



If you love gardening, if you love your orchard, at least LEARN what the
organic methods really are before passing judgement on things you have
rejected out of hand without a lick of knowledge.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com

As a final comment, maybe you know of a friendly preditor that will kill
the West Nile bearing mosquitos in my area, or the Asian Longhorn
Beetles. I'm sure the municipalities here would like to know about them.

Sherwin Dubren

In article , sherwindu
wrote:

paghat wrote:

In article , sherwindu
wrote:

Many very odd things in what you wrote, bordering on phobic.

Hey Rat Girl,
I am sorry I don't belong to your church of the organics.

That you find better agricultural practices a religion indicates you are
not thinking rationally to start with.

No, no! You obviously missed the irony of my statement. What I meant was
you pursue this organic kick like a religion.

Your previous admission that you
spray CONSTANTLY except for that brief time when the orchard is blooming
shows how extreme your case is. I wouldn't call your own behavior cultic,
merely dangerouslky mnisguided.

First of all, I spray in about 3 week intervals, during the fruiting
season,
aside from
dormant oil in early spring. I think you have your own flavor of extremism
bordering
on your cult of eco-purity.



I have visited organic
orchards, and see a lot of spoiled fruit on the ground.

Of course fruit falls to the ground. Unlike your orchard, most farmers do
not HARVEST from the ground.

I do not harvest from the ground. I will occasionally pick up a
fruit which
has fallen
which does not look attacked by either insects or critters.

You said explicitely that the wasps that
attack fruits on the ground is the reason you have to poison your orchard
continuously. Wasps feed & drink at the wounds of damaged fruits, yes, but
worse, fruits harvested after they fall are a common source of of e-coli.

I don't know about your orchard, but I do a daily patrol and clean up
any fruit
on the ground. Most of it goes on the compost pile, or the garbage
if it looks
like it has some kind of infection.



I have tried organic
sprays, and from my experience, they don't work.

Organic principles does not mean a quick fix spray. You clearly don't know
squat about the topic, & it's unfortunate for you & the helath of your
family, your neighbors, your environment.

Why don't you climb off your soapbox.

Organic would define the way you
mulch, the way you mow or don't mow nearby meadows, the types of predator
inesects you encourage from the wild or introduce, PROPERLY TIMED
bacterial sprays, much else that is the reason the organic fruit farmers
have repeatedly been shown in university studies to produce fruits larger,
tastier, & more numerous than chemical-reliant farmers.

I don't know about the chemical-reliant farmers, but I will match up
my fruit
against any organic gardener for taste, size, etc. Most organic
gardeners won't

grow the heritage type fruits I grow, because they are so susceptible
to attack.



I loose very little fruit to
insect damage.

By killing everything in sight & spraying continuously. Great.

Yes, when I put in many hours of taking care of these trees, I don't want
to see the results go to pot.



There is no good organic spray for Apple Maggot, etc.

You're only thinking alternatives to poisons aren't poisonous enough,
because you're fabulouslky ignorant of organic methods. Otherwise you'd
already know most organic fruit growers do not have apple maggot or plum
curculio,

Are you making this up?????

the ONLY orchard problems that have no after-the-fact fix that
is organic. A properly cared for fully-system organic approach does not
allow for the mass-flourishing of a single species of insect in the first
place.

And you call me phobic?



With a healthy predator insect population & a proper clean-up problem at
the end of each harvest month, your concern about there being no organic
sprays for apple maggot does not even apply.

With YOUR system then perhaps it is a perpetual worry -- use of poisons
breeds reliance on poisons. For these pests afflict non-organic gardeners
to a much higher degree & the real threat posed to organic growers would
be neighbors such as yourself whose trees have an increased likelihood of
introducing diseases into a larger area.

Your taking "preventative" actions by spraying toxins continuously except
for a brief time of flower wouldn't even be a chemical-sucking hilljack
grower's answer to apple maggot -- not if they were in their right mind.

Apple maggots can be fully controlled by organic methods, just not by
organic sprays.

Baloney!

The method is one of the least invasive imaginable: do NOT
leave unharvested fruit on the the trees through winter, & do NOT leave
apples on the ground to rot & become breeding factories. Unsalable fruit
should be heat-composted. Because apple maggots harbor in winter fruits &
emerge in spring, that first generation will not exist in properly
maintained organic orchards. And as you have admitted to harvesting even
the e-coli-ridden fruits off the ground, you shouldn't have apple maggots.

As previously mentioned, my orchard is inspected daily and no fruit is left
on the ground, and still these pests come. My mulch pile heats up
nicely, so
I don't think they propagate there. I never admitted to harvesting
e-coli-ridden
fruits off the ground.



They can still be worrisome because of the bad behaviors of neighboring
orchards. When BAD growers introduce these diseases to finer orchards next
door, the back-up organic method (sticky-traps shaped like the fuit to be
protected) is not the world's best fix, it is true, & some organic growers
unfortunatley prefer to not sell organic fruit that year. But a community
of growers who all do it right & do not permit fallen fruit to harbor
maggots through the winter won't have to make this sorry-ass decision.

Keeping a clean orchard doesn't work for me. I'm not one of those BAD BAD
growers.



Other organic controls for apple maggot includes fruit thinning, which has
the added benefit of larger tastier fruits that remain, & the majority of
commercial orchards do fruit thinning anyway because shitloads of inferior
fruits are not marketable for anything but the low-end for juice, or hog
food. Some do the thinning by hand, chemical-reliant growers have chemical
methods of doing it, & the organic alternative to the chemical method is a
fish oil & lime sulfur combination -- all methods of thinning increase
fruit size.

I do extensive thinning, as well.



But even in a worst-case scenario, the method you outlined as your method
would NEVER be necessary because of two pests difficult to eradicate after
bad agricultural practices have helped establish them in an orchard. A
"break" from organic principles would be brief & minimimally invasive. The
"low spray" technique is unfortunate but some growers use it as a fallback
position, though it does harm the marketable price of the fruit thus
treated in that year. Organically approved late-season sprays like Entrust
do work well on apple maggots, but only when used in concert with year-end
ground clean-up, & early season use of kaolin (Surround). It remains that
in the majority of organic orchards, unless there's someone right next
door doing it very wrong, these additional methods won't be necessary.

The organic sprays are a pain
to use. For example, Surround leaves an ugly film on the fruit,
which would
make insect damage almost preferable.

This certainly is not true with proper choices & proper timing, so you've
just shown again you don't know what you're doing.

Have you ever had to clean up the Surround junk off your fruit?

But certainly if by
"pain" you mean they only work if you're knowledgeable about organic
methods, then yes, you're right.

Organic sprays and other preventatives have a long
way to go to get me to use them.

Despite studies such as conducted at Cornell & Washington State U. that
show the present state of organic orchard methods producese more fruit,
tastier fruit, the preferred fruits in the marketplace, you're going to
stick with methods that are known to be inferior for the quality & vallue
of the harvest.

Can you supply specific document sources, or else I'm going to think that
you are making this all up?

You prefer inferior fruit, toxic fruit, fruit that far
fewer people would want to purchase or eat if they knew what you were up
to. And you'd rather hitch your waggon to a dwindling & failing
argricultural system & avoid the fastest growing & most successful segment
of agriculture today.

I'll match my fruit any day against an organic gardener.



Some farmers growing annual vegetable crops have to make concessions in
order cash in on the growing organics market, but orchard fruit growers
gain on every level, because each year organic methods are followed, the
orchard becomes healthier & produces better.

Having a small backyard orchard, I value ALL of my
fruit, and am not willing to sacrifice a good portion of it on the
alter of
organics.

Sherwin D.

Back yard amateurs are the worst enemies of professional, qualified,
knowledgeable organic growers. Your toxins spread into finer orchards; you
are more apt to spread diseases; you are responsible for the implosion of
pollinator & predator insect populations. You also risk the health & lives
of everyone who eats fruits that developed in what you admitted was
continuous chemical spraying except during the brief time of flowering.

I may be a backyard grower, but I'm not an amateur. I'll match my
knowledge
of fruit growing against yours any day. You sound like an elitist snob,
certainly
someone who thinks they know it all. I don't distribute contaminated
fruit. I
allow the chemicals to subside naturally in the sun before
harvesting, and I
carefully wash any fruit I give away, or tell people to do so. The washing
is just an added precaution, since most of the chemicals have dissipated by
the time I pick the fruit.



If the science didn't support these statements then your likening organic
gardening to a church with an alter for sacrifices would apply. But these
are not things that need be taken on faith. Whereas your belief system is
not supported by the faith, does require faith in lieu of reason, & does
cause human sacrifice. So if being religioius is as big an insult as you
would have it, you have just insulted ourself by projecting.

It's not the science I'm against, but your trying to cram this stuff
down our
throats, like it's the gospel.



If you love gardening, if you love your orchard, at least LEARN what the
organic methods really are before passing judgement on things you have
rejected out of hand without a lick of knowledge.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com

As a final comment, maybe you know of a friendly preditor that will kill
the West Nile bearing mosquitos in my area, or the Asian Longhorn
Beetles. I'm sure the municipalities here would like to know about them.

Sherwin Dubren

You've been unable to credibly or knowledgeably contradict anything I've
posted so I won't go over it again, except to reiterate that YOUR
continuing notion that organic gardening is merely a cult makes you
something of an idiot savant, without the savant.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com