HomeGuy wrote:
Guv Bob wrote:

What type of soil do you have in Long Beach?

Below 1-2 inches, it's hard-packed clay in this particular spot.
This was just an idea. Water won't penetrate it.

Grass roots don't really grow much below 2" anyways. Just look at
rolls of sod. They certainly don't come 2" thick (with soil).

Rolls of sod are sold with only enough soil/roots to survive till thet're layed.
Otherwise, the sod farms would quickly run out of soil.

I recently cut up a bunch of lawn for a garden with a rented sod cutter. I cut
2+" deep, and still had a tough layer of roots that my old rototiller couldn't
easily get through. There was at least 2" of root left, and I had to break it up
with a shovel before my tiller could do its job.

Of course, since you operate by the stupid theory that you have to water every
day if it gets over 80F (in another post), your grass will have no deep roots.
They only go deep if they have to to find water. My lawn has no problem with a
good watering once a week in 80F weather.

"HomeGuy" Home@guy.com wrote in message ...
Guv Bob wrote:

What type of soil do you have in Long Beach?

Below 1-2 inches, it's hard-packed clay in this particular spot.
This was just an idea. Water won't penetrate it.

Grass roots don't really grow much below 2" anyways. Just look at rolls
of sod. They certainly don't come 2" thick (with soil).

Lawns need almost daily watering when the daily high temp reaches 80
unless except on overcast days - then maybe you can go 4 days without
water.

This is a small area - about 10 x 30 ft.

Forget aerating. Have a yard of black earth / top-soil delivered and
rake it evenly all over, and throw in some grass seed while you're at
it. THAT is by far the most accepted way to deal with poor sub-soil
conditions without completely replacing the top 4" of soil.

And then you need to water.

But you haven't said anything about your ability to irrigate this patch
of grass. What municipal water restrictions are you under currently -
now and for the next few months?

Thanks, HG. Only restrictions so far are what I do anyway - no watering between 9am-5pm or hose down sideways, etc. Unfortunately, the talk is that the cut back will be 20% less than we used 12 months previous. So folks like us who are very conservative with water will likely end up paying penalties. Meanwhile the swimming pool crowd down the street will only have to stop pumping so much overflow into the gutter.

"Bob F" wrote in message ...
HomeGuy wrote:
Guv Bob wrote:

What type of soil do you have in Long Beach?

Below 1-2 inches, it's hard-packed clay in this particular spot.
This was just an idea. Water won't penetrate it.

Grass roots don't really grow much below 2" anyways. Just look at
rolls of sod. They certainly don't come 2" thick (with soil).

Rolls of sod are sold with only enough soil/roots to survive till thet're layed.
Otherwise, the sod farms would quickly run out of soil.

I recently cut up a bunch of lawn for a garden with a rented sod cutter. I cut
2+" deep, and still had a tough layer of roots that my old rototiller couldn't
easily get through. There was at least 2" of root left, and I had to break it up
with a shovel before my tiller could do its job.

Of course, since you operate by the stupid theory that you have to water every
day if it gets over 80F (in another post), your grass will have no deep roots.
They only go deep if they have to to find water. My lawn has no problem with a
good watering once a week in 80F weather.

When I was testing the soil, grass roots in the good areas went down at least 4 inches. I'm inland in So Calif and we got less than 4 inches of rain last year. Where the grass is established, I seldom have to water more than once every 7-10 days. Over the years, I have watched to see which grass dies and which will go without water, and tried to expand the more drought tolerant. Seat of the pants method, but it works for me.

"David E. Ross" wrote in message ...
On 7/20/2014 4:41 PM, Guv Bob wrote [in part]:
This is a small area - about 10 x 30 ft. Would be nice to have
grass there, but being dirt is OK, and not worth renting anything. A
few years ago I had to put ground cover on a bare compacted clay
hill. I ended up getting a 5/8-inch masonry bit and drilling 4-inch
holes about 6-8 inches apart, dropping red apple ice plant pieces in
and filling with good soil. Nearly all survived and within a year
the hill was covered.


While it used to be quite common to plant ice plant on a slope, the
recommendation today is very much against that. During a rain, ice
plant takes up much water and becomes quite heavy. The roots tend to be
shallow and not very extensive. The result is that the ice plant will
often pull loose, slide down the hill, and take part of the hill with it.

I am very sensitive about proper planting of slopes since the hill in my
back yard has slipped twice. The second time, the repair cost almost
four times what I paid for my house; my grandchildren will make the last
payment on the federal disaster loan. No, there is no such thing as
insurance against a slope failing; and the repairs are never guaranteed.

Grape vines are very good on a hill; they have very tough, deep roots
and generally do not care how poor is the soil. Alone, African daisies
or ivy (English or Algerian) are not good because their roots tend to
form a mat that can become a weak layer; African daisies and ivy mixed
together, however, are excellent on a hill because those mats are at
different depths and tend to be less concentrated.

According to the grading experts in my county's public works agency,
trees on a hill can be bad. In a wind, they rock back and forth,
breaking up the soil around the bases of the trunks. With a major rain
storm, that becomes a path for a large amount of water to funnel down to
the subsoil. Depending on their alignment, this can lubricate the
boundary between soil and subsoil and trigger a slide. On the other
hand, shrubs are okay.

Good to know, David. Grapes sounds like a great idea. Any particular varieties to get or stay away from? Or other types of plants on a slope?

Guv Bob wrote:
....
When I was testing the soil, grass roots in the good
areas went down at least 4 inches. I'm inland in
So Calif and we got less than 4 inches of rain last
year. Where the grass is established, I seldom have
to water more than once every 7-10 days. Over the
years, I have watched to see which grass dies and
which will go without water, and tried to expand the
more drought tolerant. Seat of the pants method,
but it works for me.

note that most grassed do not die completely in
drought conditions but will go dormant.


songbird

On 7/20/2014 11:34 PM, Guv Bob wrote:
"David E. Ross" wrote in message ...
On 7/20/2014 4:41 PM, Guv Bob wrote [in part]:
This is a small area - about 10 x 30 ft. Would be nice to have
grass there, but being dirt is OK, and not worth renting anything. A
few years ago I had to put ground cover on a bare compacted clay
hill. I ended up getting a 5/8-inch masonry bit and drilling 4-inch
holes about 6-8 inches apart, dropping red apple ice plant pieces in
and filling with good soil. Nearly all survived and within a year
the hill was covered.


While it used to be quite common to plant ice plant on a slope, the
recommendation today is very much against that. During a rain, ice
plant takes up much water and becomes quite heavy. The roots tend to be
shallow and not very extensive. The result is that the ice plant will
often pull loose, slide down the hill, and take part of the hill with it.

I am very sensitive about proper planting of slopes since the hill in my
back yard has slipped twice. The second time, the repair cost almost
four times what I paid for my house; my grandchildren will make the last
payment on the federal disaster loan. No, there is no such thing as
insurance against a slope failing; and the repairs are never guaranteed.

Grape vines are very good on a hill; they have very tough, deep roots
and generally do not care how poor is the soil. Alone, African daisies
or ivy (English or Algerian) are not good because their roots tend to
form a mat that can become a weak layer; African daisies and ivy mixed
together, however, are excellent on a hill because those mats are at
different depths and tend to be less concentrated.

According to the grading experts in my county's public works agency,
trees on a hill can be bad. In a wind, they rock back and forth,
breaking up the soil around the bases of the trunks. With a major rain
storm, that becomes a path for a large amount of water to funnel down to
the subsoil. Depending on their alignment, this can lubricate the
boundary between soil and subsoil and trigger a slide. On the other
hand, shrubs are okay.

Good to know, David. Grapes sounds like a great idea. Any particular varieties to get or stay away from? Or other types of plants on a slope?




Almost any variety of grape is okay. Choose something you will use.
Just be sure you have sturdy supports since grape vines -- even without
fruit -- can be quite heavy. See my
http://www.rossde.com/garden/garden_grapes.html for how I support my
grape vines. Also, ground cover is still necessary to prevent surface
erosion.

Also, do not overplant. Last year, I filled a very large pail in one
picking from only one vine.

The first time my hill failed, I had a single grape vine in the middle.
While the hill slid on both sides, the vine and the part of the hill
below it did not move. Unfortunately, the vine had to be removed to
repair the hill. I then planted two grape vines. The hill failed again
13 years later, between the vines. Now I have three grape vines. If
the hill ever fails again, my house goes up for sale "as is".

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean, see
http://www.rossde.com/garden/climate.html
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

On 7/20/2014 11:31 PM, Guv Bob wrote:
When I was testing the soil, grass roots in the good areas went down
at least 4 inches. I'm inland in So Calif and we got less than 4
inches of rain last year. Where the grass is established, I seldom
have to water more than once every 7-10 days. Over the years, I
have watched to see which grass dies and which will go without water,
and tried to expand the more drought tolerant. Seat of the pants
method, but it works for me.

You, Higgs Boson, and I are all in southern California. Higgs is
coastal (near Santa Monica Bay), and I am in what the National Weather
Service calls a coastal valley (near Thousand Oaks and the Santa Monica
Mountains National Recreation Area). Where are you?

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean, see
http://www.rossde.com/garden/climate.html
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

"David E. Ross" wrote:

You, Higgs Boson, and I are all in southern California. Higgs is
coastal (near Santa Monica Bay), and I am in what the National
Weather Service calls a coastal valley (near Thousand Oaks and
the Santa Monica Mountains National Recreation Area).
Where are you?

I've already told you where he lives.

Long Beach.

"David E. Ross" wrote in message ...
On 7/20/2014 11:31 PM, Guv Bob wrote:
When I was testing the soil, grass roots in the good areas went down
at least 4 inches. I'm inland in So Calif and we got less than 4
inches of rain last year. Where the grass is established, I seldom
have to water more than once every 7-10 days. Over the years, I
have watched to see which grass dies and which will go without water,
and tried to expand the more drought tolerant. Seat of the pants
method, but it works for me.

You, Higgs Boson, and I are all in southern California. Higgs is
coastal (near Santa Monica Bay), and I am in what the National Weather
Service calls a coastal valley (near Thousand Oaks and the Santa Monica
Mountains National Recreation Area). Where are you?

N. San Diego County, about 15 miles inland.

"HomeGuy" Home@guy.com wrote in message ...
"David E. Ross" wrote:

You, Higgs Boson, and I are all in southern California. Higgs is
coastal (near Santa Monica Bay), and I am in what the National
Weather Service calls a coastal valley (near Thousand Oaks and
the Santa Monica Mountains National Recreation Area).
Where are you?

I've already told you where he lives.

Long Beach.

Why did you guess Long Beach?

On Sun, 20 Jul 2014 09:22:21 -0400, HomeGuy
Home@guy.com wrote:

Tony Hwang wrote:

Lawn aeration is a crock.

Definitely beneficial for healthy lawn in our locale.

Stupid move, Tony. You're deluding yourself.

In areas that get sub-freezing in winter (like most of Canada) the many
cycles of frost heaving (freeze-thaw) in winter does a great job of
breaking up residential soil.

Think about it.

Just look what it does to our roads, and imagine what is going on in the
soil.

Long Beach CA is not northern Canada by a long shot.

?-)

On Mon, 21 Jul 2014 17:44:03 -0800, "Guv Bob"
wrote:

Why did you guess Long Beach?


She is a canuck? I had you closer to Huntington Beach / Irvine

"Guv Bob" wrote in message
news Now that we have all the comments and theories about aeration......

Anybody know where to get an aerator that's basically a 20-gallon barrel
filled with water with a row of aerator tubes fastened around each head
pulled by hand? Less than 1000 sq ft and too hard for foot-stomper
aerator.


----------

how about a Tommy Gun?

Now that we have all the comments and theories about aeration......

Anybody know where to get an aerator that's basically a 20-gallon barrel filled with water with a row of aerator tubes fastened around each head pulled by hand? Less than 1000 sq ft and too hard for foot-stomper aerator.

On 8/6/14, 3:19 PM, Guv Bob wrote:
Now that we have all the comments and theories about aeration......

Anybody know where to get an aerator that's basically a 20-gallon barrel filled with water with a row of aerator tubes fastened around each head pulled by hand? Less than 1000 sq ft and too hard for foot-stomper aerator.


Well what do you know ? There is such a thing..........in Australia !

see page 30 of http://www.hicksturf.com.au/pdf/productcatalogue.pdf