Maybe you need to approach this problem from a permaculture perspective,
ie:
there's not an influx of money grubbing, selling it crap, there's simply a
lack of simple-get-started-now info and use your web site to get the word
out there?

Here's a site I put together with beginners in mind... Elements of it could
proabably be updated (i put it together as an experiment with some free
software I got with some computer mag a few years ago) but it's still
generally OK i think...

http://www.gburnett.unisonplus.net/Perma/

Graham




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"Graham Burnett" wrote in message

Here's a site I put together with beginners in mind...
http://www.gburnett.unisonplus.net/Perma/

Nice site. and I see you mention "Beauty of Bath" apples. I've never tried
these but put some grafts on a seedling apple last year along with a number
of other very British apple scions. I have only lost a few of the grafts
and that has been because I can't keep the water up to them because of the
drought.

Nice to see you back again Graham. Are you still pcing?

On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:30:02 GMT, "Graham Burnett"
wrote:


Maybe you need to approach this problem from a permaculture perspective,
ie:
there's not an influx of money grubbing, selling it crap, there's simply a
lack of simple-get-started-now info and use your web site to get the word
out there?

Here's a site I put together with beginners in mind... Elements of it could
proabably be updated (i put it together as an experiment with some free
software I got with some computer mag a few years ago) but it's still
generally OK i think...

http://www.gburnett.unisonplus.net/Perma/

I was planning to comment today and point out your site,
Graham....it's a fabulous resource for the beginner, wanting to get a
feel for what pc is all about.

There are definitely non-commercial resources out there for those who
want to fidn them. The question, I think, would have to be how can
they be made easier to find?

Geodyne

Permaculture and the internet/google is basically a dead end or a long
winded search.
But like most information that needs more than the 'spin' permaculture,
in theory form, does not work well on the internet (for me anyway)
What the internet/permaculture needs is visible examples to give it
strength, and inspire.

Below are the web sites I have found on permaculture or permaculture
related,
that offer more than 'I can sell you a pc' or have been designed badly/
have minimal information and do not give permaculture justice.

http://pathtofreedom.com/
http://www.diggers.com.au/
http://www.ata.org.au/
http://www.organicdownunder.com/
http://www.seedsavers.net/index.html
http://users.easystreet.com/ersson/

While I am not averse to reading,
I have over half a dozen permaculture books on my shelf, my wants from the
internet are different.
To me, the internet needs 'documented' examples and resource links.

Joining your local permaculture group, may assist you in keeping in touch
with what others are doing and resources,
but often they do have different approaches, live in different 'scenarios'
etc. It would be great to see more 'good' permaculture
examples being visible in the first 10 pages of a google search, but as one
of you did point out, not everyone has the knowledge
or resources to aquire this 'status'. And quite possible, those who practice
permaculture do not always have time or resources to document it for the
net.
I personally kept a 2 year blogg on our development, but this year, while I
have photographed the yards progress, I have not uploaded
this information to any site. Mostly due to lack of time.

http://www.jeack.com.au/~kirsty/ 2002/2003

My local permaculture group set up a in house mail list, which we use to
converse (like you seem to here)
with short queries. ie where to find a good timer supplier from last week,
which my partner put up in html.
http://www.auckett.net/permaculture/..._2nd_hand.html

But wouldn't it be great if this was all found on one good site !!

Hopefully our new site will soon be moved and I will be unemployed.
I may have time in the near future to 'finish' off the new site and get it
on some search engines.

A friend site who has lots of interesting information is
www.snakeshow.net

In short :
Permaculture is definately a grass roots movement.
Unfortunately we are living in a word where 'high' advertising is now the
selling movement, or possible it's saturation
drowns out every other 'selling' product. I don't personally believe
Permaculture lends itself well to the 'selling' approach,
However, Permaculture may not be losing revelance as len points out, but
rather I find it suffers from a
'all theory/few examples/you need the certificate' scenario. I personally
find many permaculturists, or those who want to 'attempt'
permaculture get bogged down with the theory, and achieve very little
because of they are constantly in some 'design' process.

People need examples they can relate to and achive on whatever level, and
the internet could provide them.
In reality Permaculture should be now thriving, and growing, as more and
more people are opting for the
'down shift' or 'sea change' lifestyle, are concerned about the planet, eat
more organic food etc etc. All which
is fundemental to permaculture.

This is my personal opinion


Kirsty




"Pete" wrote in message
...
"Pinky" wrote in message
...
Maybe you need to approach this problem from a permaculture perspective,
ie:
there's not an influx of money grubbing, selling it crap, there's simply
a
lack of simple-get-started-now info and use your web site to get the
word
out there?

Thats a good way to look at it, if we think about it, those of us who are
using pc techniques daily dont think to take pics and notes to pass on
...we
just get on with it.

I personally think there is room for the teachers and if there's a market
for a weekend crash course into pc then why wouldnt people who are able to
teach it offer that service ?

I understand what Len meant though, it could be very daunting for
newcommers
if they think that to be able to use permaculture means you have to be
taught by someone who has a diploma in pc design, and if you search for
pc
on the net thats what comes across.

We (this newsgroup) should be here as a resource for people who want
simple
and down to earth banter/advice/brain storming/idea echange about pc
without
it costing them anything, if they want to pursue a course then fine ... if
not then fine.... but its important to get the message across I think Len
was trying to make ... that you don't need to pay someone to teach you
permaculture techniques anymore than you need to pay someone to teach you
how to plant cabbages.

Of course there was "fluff" on this NG .... it was a community and thats
what made it so ....IMO thats why new folks jumped in and started posting
cos it felt like a community not just an information exchange.


PS. If those are tim-tams you're passing out there Pete, I'll have one,
ta
)

tim-tam for you .....and seeing as the female/male ratio looks pretty good
from where I'm sitting .......I also think a group hug would be nice. :-)

Just keep Len away from the red cordial

Hi Kirsty,



"Kirsty" wrote in message news:411775ac@tyson...
What the internet/permaculture needs is visible examples to give it
strength, and inspire.

I found that quite frustrating when i first got into permaculture (and the
internet around the same time).


Below are the web sites I have found on permaculture or permaculture
related,
that offer more than 'I can sell you a pc' or have been designed badly/
have minimal information and do not give permaculture justice.

http://pathtofreedom.com/
http://www.diggers.com.au/
http://www.ata.org.au/
http://www.organicdownunder.com/
http://www.seedsavers.net/index.html
http://users.easystreet.com/ersson/
bit of snippage for brevity
It would be great to see more 'good' permaculture
examples being visible in the first 10 pages of a google search, but as
one
of you did point out, not everyone has the knowledge
or resources to aquire this 'status'. And quite possible, those who
practice
permaculture do not always have time or resources to document it for the
net.
I personally kept a 2 year blogg on our development, but this year, while
I
have photographed the yards progress, I have not uploaded
this information to any site. Mostly due to lack of time.

http://www.jeack.com.au/~kirsty/ 2002/2003

Nice site, you and your partner have obviously put in a lot of work at your
place, where in Melbourne are you (no need to be too specific obviously
i'm in the Dandenong Ranges for 115 more days then it's off to northern NSW
and sunshine and subtropical climate for me!)


My local permaculture group set up a in house mail list, which we use to
converse (like you seem to here)
with short queries. ie where to find a good timer supplier from last week,
which my partner put up in html.
http://www.auckett.net/permaculture/..._2nd_hand.html

But wouldn't it be great if this was all found on one good site !!

Yes it would, it would be a handy local resource.


Hopefully our new site will soon be moved and I will be unemployed.
I may have time in the near future to 'finish' off the new site and get it
on some search engines.

A friend site who has lots of interesting information is
www.snakeshow.net

Interesting site


In short :
Permaculture is definately a grass roots movement.
Unfortunately we are living in a word where 'high' advertising is now the
selling movement, or possible it's saturation
drowns out every other 'selling' product. I don't personally believe
Permaculture lends itself well to the 'selling' approach,
However, Permaculture may not be losing revelance as len points out, but
rather I find it suffers from a
'all theory/few examples/you need the certificate' scenario. I personally
find many permaculturists, or those who want to 'attempt'
permaculture get bogged down with the theory, and achieve very little
because of they are constantly in some 'design' process.

People need examples they can relate to and achive on whatever level, and
the internet could provide them.
In reality Permaculture should be now thriving, and growing, as more and
more people are opting for the
'down shift' or 'sea change' lifestyle, are concerned about the planet,
eat
more organic food etc etc. All which
is fundemental to permaculture.

This is my personal opinion


Kirsty

Welcome to alt.permaculture Kirsty, it's dead as a doornail at the moment,
tho we seem to spark up occassionally

Andrea

Welcome to alt.permaculture Kirsty, it's dead as a doornail at the moment,

Mmmm where did everybody go? Maybe its a good sign - They are all to
busy implementing permaculture in their lives

Myk

more like trying to work out how to turn a dollar or 2

len

snipped
--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/

my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send.

Howdy again Myk! Glad to see you are still in the land of the living! I've
been doing some co-teaching with our mutual friend Merlyn, we are running
the next Naturewise Design Course in North London along with Mark Warner
this Autumn- drop me a line off list if you want to, you can contact me via
my web page at www.spiralseed.co.uk

Cheers for now, Graham


"Myk Rushton" wrote in message
...

Welcome to alt.permaculture Kirsty, it's dead as a doornail at the
moment,

Mmmm where did everybody go? Maybe its a good sign - They are all to
busy implementing permaculture in their lives

Myk


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Hi all,
PC Novice here so really just getting started in this field.. This
person has hit the nail on the head for me.. I found this to be the
case here on the web too.
Another thing I find is that there is a ton of stuff for folks living
in places they can do this year around and almost zilch for a cold
climate newbie permie like myself..
Not being critical, just a plea for some help and maybe a nudge from
you big brothers and sisters who have been doing this for years now..
my 2 cents smitty

but when you get involved around the 'net and try to do any research
all you get is certificates, diplomas, institutes and the call for it
to be a uni degree and a senior school curriculum. and it all spells
money and they are not promoting pc as something everyone can do to
some degree you along with pete and others i hope we can count
ourselves in as well are out there doing it and untill all that
factional garbage this group was full of help and ideas going back and
forth but now that the only thrust is from those chardinay yuppies
looking for an easy buck.

Hiya Smitty

Good to read ya.
Permaculture can be as hard or easy as you want it to be. It's more than
just planting food, it's how each element within the whole system
interacts with each other to benefit not only you or me but benefits the
system itself to make it work better and more efficiently.

Some simple examples are using space within or around a chicken coop to
grow not only food for the chickens but food for you which directly
benefits from the chicken "outputs" manure, body warmth, pest control
(careful thought needed there though) etc ... of course the chickens
could be rabbits with a worm farm underneath to use the manure and
convert it to vermicompost or ducks for more reliable snail control (and
slightly safer veggies), but the point is the "system" is built up with
a wholistic plan that integrates any and all those different elements so
that they compliment each other.

The climate of a particular area can be a major factor in deciding what
you can grow or what species of livestock you can keep but its not
really a factor as far as the principles of PC go .... you can create
your own system wherever you live ... each system uses what is available
within the constraints of that climate ... it's a matter of honing the
system to work best for your situation and location.

*The grass is always greener section*
I came from the UK to Australia thinking I could grow anything here ....
not so ... the climatic differences whilst helping some things stop me
from growing things I used to take for granted in the UK, here its as
dry as England was wet, as hot as England was cold .. where I stayed
indoors in England because of the knee deep snow ... now I stay indoors
because its 40 deg C outside and the effect on any plants trying to stay
alive is just as dramatic, here is crunchy dry grass where there was wet
soggy or frozen grass, here is furnace hot drying Northerly winds where
there was freezing 'cutting you to the bone' North winds .... its a
tricky old world
* end of grass is greener section*

Point is ... it will never be wet enough/dry enough/sunny enough/cool
enough wherever we live to do what we all want to do when we want to do
it, the good news is that as far as PC is concerned it really doesn't
matter ...... cos what ya got is exactly what your PC system can use,
how its used depends on how you plan it and that determines how well
each element works within the whole system.

Not sure how many of the regulars are left on the NG, but there used to
be a wealth of experience on here ...prolly still is ... the main thing
to remember is we are all learning all the time ... no matter how long
someone has been using PC, theres always another point of view to
consider or another problem/solution that can be of interest to others.

So ask away ...post away ... I'll help if I can and hopefully others
will get involved too.

(hope at least some of that makes sense)

Pete



wrote:
Hi all,
PC Novice here so really just getting started in this field.. This
person has hit the nail on the head for me.. I found this to be the
case here on the web too.
Another thing I find is that there is a ton of stuff for folks living
in places they can do this year around and almost zilch for a cold
climate newbie permie like myself..
Not being critical, just a plea for some help and maybe a nudge from
you big brothers and sisters who have been doing this for years now..
my 2 cents smitty

but when you get involved around the 'net and try to do any research
all you get is certificates, diplomas, institutes and the call for it
to be a uni degree and a senior school curriculum. and it all spells
money and they are not promoting pc as something everyone can do to
some degree you along with pete and others i hope we can count
ourselves in as well are out there doing it and untill all that
factional garbage this group was full of help and ideas going back and
forth but now that the only thrust is from those chardinay yuppies
looking for an easy buck.

g'day,

don't know if this will help but i am writting an essay on how i see
and do perma-c. itis open ended and not finished but there may be some
tips that you could use?

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gard...ture_essay.htm

feel free to contact me by e/mail if you think i can help in some way.

len

snipped
--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/

my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send.

how ya goin pete,

sorry mate dunno how i replied to your post i'm having one of those
days.

take care

len


snipped
--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/

my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send.

g'day,

don't know if this will help but i am writting an essay on how i see
and do perma-c. itis open ended and not finished but there may be some
tips that you could use?

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gard...ture_essay.htm

feel free to contact me by e/mail if you think i can help in some way.

len

snipped
--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and
the environment
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/

my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete
before you send.

snipped
--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/

my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send.

len gardener wrote:
how ya goin pete,

sorry mate dunno how i replied to your post i'm having one of those
days.

take care

len

Yeah .... get outa my thread .. oh ... ok it's your thread ..... but
thats no excuse.

I'm doing good mate, hope life is treating you well.

Pete

lol lol rite pete now i got it huh?

yeh things are great up here getting good rain the place looks magic.
that ripping and swaling with rows of mulch hay along the contours
have worked a treat, there is lotsof moisture in the soil now makes it
a wonder when planting trees easy to dig and lots of moisture so the
plant doesn't dry out too much.

haven't won lotto yet so still on the market but that's life hey

anyhow take care and have a great season if we don't get to chat bfore
hand.

len

snipped
--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/

my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send.