I am going to have to dig up my old posts of the theme--- cancers
of a specific species can transform into disease vectors of new
microbes.

What I am seeing today in my landscaping is after a heavy rain
downpour, that of the apple cedar rust with its orange color
on the cedar trees and next to them are Austrian pine with their
**pollen cones** which from a distance looks exactly similar to the
apple cedar rust.

So here is my conjecture, which maybe true or false. I conjecture that
if a genome were done on the Austrian pine and a genome done
on the apple-cedar rust that the implications are that the
apple cedar rust is a product of some long time ago cancer on
a pine tree pollen cone. That this cancer of a ancient pine tree
would come to develop into the apple cedar rust.

That is a conjecture I propose, that the genome of the pine tree
is so similar to the apple cedar rust genome that one can trace
back to where the apple cedar rust was created on some ancient
pine tree due to a cancer.

The theory I have on this subject is that many, perhaps a majority
of diseases from microbes, including viruses are due to a cancer
in a species for which the cancer mutated and became a
"new microbe" or a "new species of microbe".

Today we see new microbes such as bird flu and HIV. My new
theory would say that in the case of these two diseases, if traced
back far enough, it is likely or probable that a cancer of a species
was the origin of that disease of bird-flu or HIV.

The idea of this theory or theme is that many if not most microbes
that cause diseases had their origins as a cancer of a specific
species.

So, is there an expert on apple-cedar rust, and has the genome of it
been deciphered? And has the genome of pine been diciphered?
and has the genome of apple and cedar been deciphered? Have
all four been deciphered? Thence, tell me if the Rust is more related
to the pine genome?

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

wrote in news:598df564-c5bc-4d2b-9560-
:

The theory I have on this subject is that many, perhaps a majority
of diseases from microbes, including viruses are due to a cancer
in a species for which the cancer mutated and became a
"new microbe" or a "new species of microbe".

Today we see new microbes such as bird flu and HIV. My new
theory would say that in the case of these two diseases, if traced
back far enough, it is likely or probable that a cancer of a species
was the origin of that disease of bird-flu or HIV.

Viruses tend to have very small genomes, perhaps 5-20 genes, plants and
animals have much larger genomes, on the order of hundreds of thousands
or more. Many viruses don't have DNA, they use RNA instead. RNA viruses
couldn't be descended from a DNA organism through mutation. Some viruses
have circular DNA like bacteria, some don't. It is difficult to
speculate on how viruses may have come into existence.


The idea of this theory or theme is that many if not most microbes
that cause diseases had their origins as a cancer of a specific
species.

So, is there an expert on apple-cedar rust, and has the genome of it
been deciphered? And has the genome of pine been diciphered?
and has the genome of apple and cedar been deciphered? Have
all four been deciphered? Thence, tell me if the Rust is more related
to the pine genome?


Rusts and other fungi aren't closely related to plants. Fungi don't have
plastids. There are also differences in the way that spindles form
during meiosis, and very large differences in how they reproduce. Most
likely the reason that the Cedar Apple rust on your cedar trees
resembles the pine cones, is that the rust is manipulating the hormones
that the cedar uses. If the hormones are produced properly, it might
cause a plant to grow a reproductive-like structure where there
shouldn't be one. Since the cedar is relatively closely related to the
pine, it can be made to grow a cone, which is the natural reproductive
structure of the cedar anyway. Add the rust organism, and the cone may
closely resemble a pine pollen cone.

Sean



--
Check out my flickr page, it changes often.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/groms

Sean Houtman wrote:
wrote in news:598df564-c5bc-4d2b-9560-
:

The theory I have on this subject is that many, perhaps a majority
of diseases from microbes, including viruses are due to a cancer
in a species for which the cancer mutated and became a
"new microbe" or a "new species of microbe".

Today we see new microbes such as bird flu and HIV. My new
theory would say that in the case of these two diseases, if traced
back far enough, it is likely or probable that a cancer of a species
was the origin of that disease of bird-flu or HIV.

Viruses tend to have very small genomes, perhaps 5-20 genes, plants and
animals have much larger genomes, on the order of hundreds of thousands
or more. Many viruses don't have DNA, they use RNA instead. RNA viruses
couldn't be descended from a DNA organism through mutation. Some viruses
have circular DNA like bacteria, some don't. It is difficult to
speculate on how viruses may have come into existence.


Well that is the counterarguement Sean, that you make. And I make the
opposite arguement, that is it possible for a cancerous cell to morph
into
a disease bearing single cell organism which then morphs into a viral
particle. It is possible and as long as there is such a pathway then
there probably are diseases which have flowed from this pathway.

Up until now, I just have not found the clear example of a organism
that
has followed this pathway.

The flagella of bacteria eventually turned into the syringe apparatus
of
some viruses. Some may argue that the viral syringe came first and
created the flagella, but I would argue that a cancerous bacteria with
flagella came first and then morphed into a syringe which eventually
some viral syringe. So it does not matter so much that viruses have
less genes.

The arguement I am making is that the cancer cell is species specific
in that it is ready to attack any member of that species should that
cancer
cell find itself able to "live off the species as a host". And that is
the main
feature of viruses and bacteria that live off of a species host. So
that implies
that the disease particle was at one time a normal cell of the species
and
through some pathway ended up as a disease particle of the species.
The
likely pathway involves a normal cell going cancerous.

So what I am saying, Sean, is that many disease particles today, both
viral and bacterial had their origins as a normal cell of a species
that went
cancerous. Now how they eventually turned from cancerous to viral
particles
is unknown to me, but there is a pathway there which needs to be
explored.



The idea of this theory or theme is that many if not most microbes
that cause diseases had their origins as a cancer of a specific
species.

So, is there an expert on apple-cedar rust, and has the genome of it
been deciphered? And has the genome of pine been diciphered?
and has the genome of apple and cedar been deciphered? Have
all four been deciphered? Thence, tell me if the Rust is more related
to the pine genome?


Rusts and other fungi aren't closely related to plants. Fungi don't have
plastids. There are also differences in the way that spindles form
during meiosis, and very large differences in how they reproduce. Most
likely the reason that the Cedar Apple rust on your cedar trees
resembles the pine cones, is that the rust is manipulating the hormones
that the cedar uses. If the hormones are produced properly, it might
cause a plant to grow a reproductive-like structure where there
shouldn't be one. Since the cedar is relatively closely related to the
pine, it can be made to grow a cone, which is the natural reproductive
structure of the cedar anyway. Add the rust organism, and the cone may
closely resemble a pine pollen cone.

Sean


Well when I started this theory in the 1990s that cancers can evolve
into
disease particles of viral or bacterial diseases, I was working on
Prion disease
which turns out to be more of a chemical contaminant disease than
anything
dealing with living particles.

What I need is a clearcut example of a species with normal cells and
with a disease
of that species for which it can be traced back that the disease
particle resembles
in high degree some normal cells that were turned cancerous and for
which the
cancer cells are in the same chemical pathway as the disease particle.

The viruses with syringes are perhaps 1/2 billion years old and so we
may never
be able to pinpoint such a pathway of a cancerous flagella cell.

But the HIV virus, allegedly traced back to monkeys in Africa, is
possible that
the monkeys had a cancerous cells from which the creation of HIV all
started from.

What I am saying is that most disease particles are species specific
and only through
time do they "jump across species", which indicates that the disease
particle had
its birth within that species. And a likely candidate would be cancer
cells.

P.S. I decided to write this book, even though I have no clearcut data
to plunge into.
What I need is a clearcut example of a disease particle that can be
traced back to
a cancer of a species cells. The general idea of this book is that
most viruses, not
all of them but most have their origins as a cancer cell of a species.

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

Note: I numbered this post of this book as #2001 because I have to
combine
another book I started some years back on this same subject. The idea
can
be put into an equation (Cancer can = birthsite of a Virus). So in the
combining
of these books into one book I keep the numbering loose.

Reviewing some of my old posts of around 1996, where I filed a patent
application
on Cancer = protein viral missile. Apparently I tried starting a book
on this topic
under the title:

Newsgroups: sci.med, soc.history, sci.bio.technology
From: a_plutonium
Date: 31 May 2007 09:47:41 -0700
Local: Thurs, May 31 2007 11:47 am
Subject: #9 new monograph book: "BIOLOGY CONCEPT OF EXTENDED-GENOME
AND HOW VIRUSES WERE CREATED"

In the 1990s I had the concept of Viruses are begot or created by the
transformation
of Cancer cells.

This is 2009, and I want to pick up on that old concept that it is
easy to transform
a cancer cell into a new disease viral particle.

And the way to proves this is going to be a very tough research sale,
because it
involves creating a new virus from scratch from a cancer cell. A man-
made new
virus from a existing cancer cell.

But were there any viruses created naturally from cancer cells in the
past, before
we had the technological abilities to do so ourselves?

I suspect the HIV virus of AIDS was a cancer cell in monkeys which
eventually
jumped into Homo sapiens.

I suspect most of the "flu viruses" started from a lung cancer cell in
ancient times.

I could title this book Virus Creation = Cancer Cell

One piece of evidence in favor of this hypothesis is the fact that
most plants
never have cancer but that cancer seems confined to animals. And that
is because
animals need alot of protein for mobility. Proteins are stressed parts
of animal
bodies and have a high tendency to break apart. The breaking apart
occurs in cells
and when it happens a cancer is borne. Once the cancer is borne the
parts of that
cancerous cell may end up lying dormant once the animal dies or is
eaten by
another animal. So that cancer cell or part of the cancer cell has now
been
transformed into a viral particle.

The evidence in support of the above Hypothesis is the species
specifity of most
viruses. And the specificity is intense for "new viruses". Some cat
viruses affect
only cat species and they are relatively recent and new in history and
the virus is
unknown in all other species. This lends support to the idea that a
cancer in cats
was the birth site of that viral particle.

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies