"Reel McKoi" wrote
Also, to the original poster, you should find out if your municipality
uses chloramine instead of just chlorine in your tap water.

The chlorine will
dissipate fairly soon. The chloramine will not and it needs to be
treated.
See this for more than you'll ever want to know about the subject:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/20...ture/index.php



Municipal water systems are required by the EPA in the USA to disclose the
chemicals used in their water treatment processes must publish this
information each year for its customers.

For instance, here in New Orleans, the Sewerage and Water Board publishes a
booklet annually that describes what they do (see
http://www.swbno.org/waterpurification.html and
http://www.swbno.org/wq2006rptinframe.html ). Here's an exerpt:

"The raw river water is treated with chemicals called "coagulants" which
cause the small particles in the water to come together to form larger
particles which are then allowed to settle out of the water. Rapid sand
filtration is used to remove even smaller particles. During the process
chloramine is added to disinfect the water. Lime is added to provide
corrosion control and to increase the pH of the water to stabilize the
disinfectant. Fluoride is added to prevent tooth decay."

The coagulants used are polyelectrolites and ferric sulfate, both of which
are almost entirely removed during the initial coagulation (flocculation)
processing. Lime is added to increase the pH level of the water and to
stabilize the disinfectant. Later, free chlorine and anhydrous ammonia are
added to produce the disinfectant chloramine (technically that's soldium
hypochlorite NH2Cl)). Sodium hexametaphosphate is added to keep the lime in
solution. The flouride added is fluorosilicic acid.

This process is not unlike that used in many cities. The separate addition
of the chlorine and ammonia to produce chloramine is typical and effective
because chlorine is dangerous to transport and chloramine is more stable as
the water is distributed. However, as "Reel McKoi" says, it has to be
treated with commercial chemicals (generally sodium thiosulfate) before
introduction into the pond.

For some interesting info on chloramines and fish culture, see
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/doc...chlorine.shtml ).


Michael
New Orleans, Louisiana USA
================================================== ==============

On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 08:25:14 CST, Derek Broughton
wrote:

Sure it's a lot, but it would make for a healthier pond. I'd disagree
with "minimum", though. Most ponders don't manage to change that much, and
most ponders don't have serious problems. I suspect that it depends
greatly on evaporation (Jan lives in the desert), and fish load.

I wasn't suggesting adding evaporation as part of the change out. Nor was I
talking regionally. I rarely give suggestions based on my location or my
situation. I was talking from the viewpoint of the KHA program and what is
currently considered best for koi, especially in a koi only pond.

IMO, even in a planted pond, if one is doing a lot of moving plants around,
in/out, dividing, adding new, etc. it is still good to remove 10-20%/week
just to get rid of some of the organics in the water given off by the
planting media. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

~ jan wrote:

On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 08:25:14 CST, Derek Broughton
wrote:

Sure it's a lot, but it would make for a healthier pond. I'd disagree
with "minimum", though. Most ponders don't manage to change that much,
and
most ponders don't have serious problems. I suspect that it depends
greatly on evaporation (Jan lives in the desert), and fish load.

I wasn't suggesting adding evaporation as part of the change out.

Neither was I. Salination increases as evaporation increases, and so
removal of old water becomes more important.

I was talking from the viewpoint of the KHA program and what is
currently considered best for koi, especially in a koi only pond.

I know, and I'm sure it _is_ best, but there really aren't that many people
who make the effort.
--
derek
- Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated
moderators.

On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 13:25:19 CST, Derek Broughton
wrote:

I know, and I'm sure it _is_ best, but there really aren't that many people
who make the effort.

That's why I keep encouraging them to do so. ;-)

Our club has been heavy on the encouragement, and not just from me, but the
other KHA more so. Neither of us has had any pond problem calls from
members. Either they're following our suggestions, or don't want to hear
the lecture again thus aren't reporting problems. I don't know. ~ jan ;-)
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

organics dechlor chlorinated water. has anyone just tried running
city water thru peat moss? Ingrid

On Jul 9, 11:22 pm, wrote:
organics dechlor chlorinated water. has anyone just tried running
city water thru peat moss? Ingrid

I don't know! Since it is actually Chloramine in city water you want
to deal with! I don't know what peat moss would do!

wrote:

organics dechlor chlorinated water. has anyone just tried running
city water thru peat moss? Ingrid

The problem with chlorine and organics is that the combination produces
trihalomethanes (THM) - which are pretty bad for people. Does anybody know
what they do to fish? (Apparently somebody does - the EPA has a report
about the effects on Striped Bass at
http://oaspub.epa.gov/eims/eimsapi.d...ail?deid=40377 but I don't want
to spend $17.50 to get it only to find it doesn't mean anything to me - I
wasn't even sure about the term "Hepatocyte").

In drinking water systems, the aim is to filter practically all the organics
out of the water before treating with chlorine, to keep the THM levels
within EPA limits. If the THMs are a problem with fish, you really don't
want to use an organic filter to remove chlorine. [damn, I met an expert
in this sort of stuff two weeks ago - but did I know then I needed to get
his email address?]
--
derek
- Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated
moderators.

In article .com,
chatnoir wrote:

On Jul 9, 11:22 pm, wrote:
organics dechlor chlorinated water. has anyone just tried running
city water thru peat moss? Ingrid

I don't know! Since it is actually Chloramine in city water you want
to deal with! I don't know what peat moss would do!

Yes, I think most cities are using chloramine instead of chlorine these
days.

--
To reply by email, remove the word "space"

On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 09:28:08 CST, Derek Broughton
wrote:

The problem with chlorine and organics is that the combination produces
trihalomethanes (THM) - which are pretty bad for people. Does anybody know
what they do to fish? (Apparently somebody does - the EPA has a report
about the effects on Striped Bass at
http://oaspub.epa.gov/eims/eimsapi.d...ail?deid=40377 but I don't want
to spend $17.50 to get it only to find it doesn't mean anything to me - I
wasn't even sure about the term "Hepatocyte").

In drinking water systems, the aim is to filter practically all the organics
out of the water before treating with chlorine, to keep the THM levels
within EPA limits. If the THMs are a problem with fish, you really don't
want to use an organic filter to remove chlorine. [damn, I met an expert
in this sort of stuff two weeks ago - but did I know then I needed to get
his email address?]

Hmmm, sounds like dechlor all the time might be wise when using tap water?
Usually for a top off we usually say don't worry, but the chlorine is
surely reacting to the organics in a pond system, thus creating this THM?
~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

Me wrote:
The water level in the bottom tier of the pond has dropped some with
the heat down here in the Southeast. I want to put some more in but
not sure of the best way. Can I put the hose in the pond and pour the
water conditioner in all at the same time or do I need to put the
water and conditioner in something separate (a trash can?), let it sit
for a little while and then pour it into the pond?
My pond is only 650 gals. I have an 80 litre plastic container into which I
put dechlor, then spray water in. Then trickle feed from tap into pond.
--
ßôyþëtë
London, UK

~ jan wrote:


Hmmm, sounds like dechlor all the time might be wise when using tap water?
Usually for a top off we usually say don't worry, but the chlorine is
surely reacting to the organics in a pond system, thus creating this THM?

Could be, but I don't have a clue how harmful THMs might be to fish, and how
much would be created from any given amount of chlorinated water. THMs
seem to be the latest trend in drinking water supply scares, but even for
people they're talking about long-term toxicity, not short term.
--
derek
- Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated
moderators.

On Jul 10, 2:32 pm, ~ jan wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 09:28:08 CST, Derek Broughton
wrote:

The problem with chlorine and organics is that the combination produces
trihalomethanes (THM) - which are pretty bad for people. Does anybody know
what they do to fish? (Apparently somebody does - the EPA has a report
about the effects on Striped Bass at
http://oaspub.epa.gov/eims/eimsapi.d...?deid=40377but I don't want
to spend $17.50 to get it only to find it doesn't mean anything to me - I
wasn't even sure about the term "Hepatocyte").

In drinking water systems, the aim is to filter practically all the organics
out of the water before treating with chlorine, to keep the THM levels
within EPA limits. If the THMs are a problem with fish, you really don't
want to use an organic filter to remove chlorine. [damn, I met an expert
in this sort of stuff two weeks ago - but did I know then I needed to get
his email address?]

Hmmm, sounds like dechlor all the time might be wise when using tap water?
Usually for a top off we usually say don't worry, but the chlorine is
surely reacting to the organics in a pond system, thus creating this THM?
~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds:www.jjspond.us

What about this?:

http://tinyurl.com/2bn7a5

"chatnoir" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Jul 10, 2:32 pm, ~ jan wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 09:28:08 CST, Derek Broughton
wrote:

The problem with chlorine and organics is that the combination produces
trihalomethanes (THM) - which are pretty bad for people. Does anybody
know
what they do to fish? (Apparently somebody does - the EPA has a report
about the effects on Striped Bass at
http://oaspub.epa.gov/eims/eimsapi.d...?deid=40377but I don't want
to spend $17.50 to get it only to find it doesn't mean anything to me -
I
wasn't even sure about the term "Hepatocyte").

In drinking water systems, the aim is to filter practically all the
organics
out of the water before treating with chlorine, to keep the THM levels
within EPA limits. If the THMs are a problem with fish, you really
don't
want to use an organic filter to remove chlorine. [damn, I met an
expert
in this sort of stuff two weeks ago - but did I know then I needed to
get
his email address?]

Hmmm, sounds like dechlor all the time might be wise when using tap
water?
Usually for a top off we usually say don't worry, but the chlorine is
surely reacting to the organics in a pond system, thus creating this THM?
~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds:www.jjspond.us

What about this?:

http://tinyurl.com/2bn7a5

That type of filter should be listed for a certain number of gallons, rather
than a minimum time. It is a charcoal filter and when it is full, it is
full. The use for an aquarium for a year would be different than for a
10000 gallon pond. I have seen koi killed using a carbon filter that ran
out of steam. If you are going to use one of these, it would be a good idea
to have a chlorine test kit for a swimming pool to check the charcoal filter
to be sure that it is still working.

What about this?:

http://tinyurl.com/2bn7a5

That type of filter should be listed for a certain number of gallons, rather
than a minimum time. It is a charcoal filter and when it is full, it is
full. The use for an aquarium for a year would be different than for a
10000 gallon pond. I have seen koi killed using a carbon filter that ran
out of steam. If you are going to use one of these, it would be a good idea
to have a chlorine test kit for a swimming pool to check the charcoal filter
to be sure that it is still working. RTB

The other KHA in our club has done amazing stuff with carbon filtration. He
purchased 2 whole house carbon filters with a spigot in between, he runs
them in parallel. He tests from the spigot periodically, but not a pool
tester, not really sensitive enough we found. If it registers, he pulls the
filter from the 2nd and puts it in the 1st and a new one goes in the 2nd.
That way he's always covered. This works really well for a large pond.

For the rest of us, the item chatnoir listed, is probably do able, but
again, one would have to test it, probably each time until they figured out
just how many gallons it can do. People have made these from supplies at
hardware stores cheaper, I believe. Seems one could run a couple of these
cylinder units similar to what my co-KHA did with the whole house units. By
using a quick disconnect to test the 1st cylinder periodically.

Wow, after typing that, it seems like a lot of work... I think I'll stick
with dechlor as long as my water supply sticks to chlorine. ;-) ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

well here in Milwaukee the questionability of the drinking water is
always a damn fine reason to drink beer.......................

On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 18:35:19 CST, Derek Broughton
Could be, but I don't have a clue how harmful THMs might be to fish, and how
much would be created from any given amount of chlorinated water. THMs
seem to be the latest trend in drinking water supply scares, but even for
people they're talking about long-term toxicity, not short term.