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  #61   Report Post  
Old 16-02-2007, 03:44 AM posted to rec.ponds
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Default Sick koi and need advice (with pics)

On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:03:56 -0600, Zëbulon wrote:

What would make you think I would take "diseased fish" and
illegally dump them in some waterway or lake?


You're right, when I read it, the topic had gotten turned to diseased fish
and putting them in a stock pond. My post in NO WAY was about YOU doing
anything ILLEGAL.

As far as you writing a 10K post to explain something, you have no problem
typing 10K posts to defend yourself.

snip history lesson and old post info

Sure they may be here, but so are bobcats and I don't see them either.


Huh? So one could slide up to that stock pond? So what were you going on
about? They're either there or not. You contradict yourself.

Why not jan? Everyone else seems to feel they can lash out at me and say
anything they want.


Then you're no different then when Roy was attacking everyone.


Really? Who have I called the things he has called people for no reason at
all Jan?


One doesn't have to call people names, lashing out and accusing, is the
same thing in my book. It will get a post rejected just as fast as calling
names in my book.

So if you get annoyed you are free to show your annoyance but I am not?


Hello? I wasn't then or now annoyed. YOU read that in there, and I don't
know how.

The kill heron post was from a few days ago as way my sick fish post. What
makes mine recent and that one long past when they're from the same week?


Sorry don't remember it. But like I said, it isn't my MO to address those.

I see. OK, next time ASK for a detailed explanation if you feel you need
one.


No, if I misunderstand, you can civilly correct me without jumping all over
my case that I'm attacking you.

I ASSUMED you had the smarts


That comment would get a reject. Because it is basically saying I must be
dumb.

to know I knew the laws and would not
contaminate a local waterway (no rivers near me) or lake with "diseased
fish."


For the umpteenth time I bring up anything about LAWS.

Then please don't "say a word" to me next time when it comes to the farm
ponds ok? :-)


Fine. I'll make it far more generic and see how that goes.

Because illegally killing birds is a more serious issue to
me than releasing a fish into a farm pond to let nature take it's course,
which it did, rather than killing her myself.


Fine, you fight that battle and don't say a word to me about not going
there. ~ jan
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Old 16-02-2007, 05:57 AM posted to rec.ponds
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Default Sick koi and need advice (with pics)


"~ jan" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:03:56 -0600, Zëbulon
wrote:


What would make you think I would take "diseased fish" and
illegally dump them in some waterway or lake?


You're right, when I read it, the topic had gotten turned to diseased fish
and putting them in a stock pond. My post in NO WAY was about YOU doing
anything ILLEGAL.


THANK YOU! I also have permission from the owner of that pond to release my
culls there.

As far as you writing a 10K post to explain something, you have no problem
typing 10K posts to defend yourself.

snip history lesson and old post info

Sure they may be here, but so are bobcats and I don't see them either.


Huh? So one could slide up to that stock pond?


A contradiction? Nowhere did I clam they definitely 100% do not exist here.
If they do - I never saw one. How is that a contradiction? Everything I
say you question me like it's some kind of Inquisition. A kid could have
stolen it from my stock tank and released it in the lake. A dog could have
carried it the mile to the lake. What are you trying to get at Jan?

So what were you going on
about? They're either there or not. You contradict yourself.


How? I've never seen one. Can you guarantee there is or isn't one where you
live. I made no guarantee nor do I guarantee some kid wouldn't steal a fish
and take it to the lake. If your ponds are not netted you are endangering
nature yet don't seem too concerned. No pond is 100% free of all parasites
and disease. What are you doing to protect nature?


Why not jan? Everyone else seems to feel they can lash out at me and
say
anything they want.


Then you're no different then when Roy was attacking everyone.


Really? Who have I called the things he has called people for no reason
at
all Jan?


One doesn't have to call people names, lashing out and accusing, is the
same thing in my book. It will get a post rejected just as fast as calling
names in my book.


Accusing you of what? What did I accuse you of- assuming before asking me
for more info on the stock pond? WELL??? Is this your build up to an excuse
to reject any and all posts I make? Because it sure sounds like it. If you
were so very concerned about nature you would have your ponds netted and
convince everyone you know to net your ponds.

So if you get annoyed you are free to show your annoyance but I am not?


Hello? I wasn't then or now annoyed. YOU read that in there, and I don't
know how.


I see. Although you sound that way you really are typing with a sweet smile
on your face that I can't see.

The kill heron post was from a few days ago as way my sick fish post.
What
makes mine recent and that one long past when they're from the same week?


Sorry don't remember it. But like I said, it isn't my MO to address those.

I see. OK, next time ASK for a detailed explanation if you feel you need
one.


No, if I misunderstand, you can civilly correct me without jumping all
over
my case that I'm attacking you.


OK. We'll see if that helps in the future.

I ASSUMED you had the smarts


That comment would get a reject. Because it is basically saying I must be
dumb.


And your messages as much as accused me of infecting a natural waterway or
lake with diseased fish so you would have to reject your own messages!!!!!
:-O Wow,... this is going be some group or will the moderators be able to
assume and accuse without anyone moderating them? Who will be moderating
you?

to know I knew the laws and would not
contaminate a local waterway (no rivers near me) or lake with "diseased
fish."


For the umpteenth time I bring up anything about LAWS.


I would INDEED be breaking the law to knowingly dump diseased fish as
stated thereby endangering nature.

Then please don't "say a word" to me next time when it comes to the farm
ponds ok? :-)


Fine. I'll make it far more generic and see how that goes.


That should work. :-)

Because illegally killing birds is a more serious issue to
me than releasing a fish into a farm pond to let nature take it's course,
which it did, rather than killing her myself.


Fine, you fight that battle and don't say a word to me about not going
there. ~ jan


And that means......... ???
--
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*






  #63   Report Post  
Old 16-02-2007, 06:04 AM posted to rec.ponds
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Default Sick koi and need advice (with pics)


"~ jan" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 13:46:46 -0600, Tristan
wrote:


its only gonna get worse once the moderated group is
up, especially now that most of the folks that have tried to post here
only to get spit on


I don't think so. Because everyone will have to be civil, including Carol.


And everyone will also expect the moderators to be civil.

If a poster disagrees civilly


Anyone can disagree civilly and they have. No offense was taken. When some
disagrees and tries to make the other person look like a fool - people will
take offense.

and she takes it as a personal attack and
comes back all accusatory, I'll put it in the reject bin for someone else
to double check. ~ jan


Since you have such a negative attitude where I'm concerned Jan, I would
rather you don't even look at anything I post on a m.r.p. Let someone else
handle my messages.
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*






  #64   Report Post  
Old 16-02-2007, 07:27 AM posted to rec.ponds
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Default Sick koi and need advice (with pics)

On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 22:57:00 -0600, Zëbulon wrote:

THANK YOU! I also have permission from the owner of that pond to release my
culls there.


Unless you can net it, better not... according to what you say below that I
should do.

A contradiction? Nowhere did I clam they definitely 100% do not exist here.


You implied you only had green herons, too small to carry off large koi.

I've never seen one. Can you guarantee there is or isn't one where you
live.


Huh? Yeah, I've seen them, plenty of times.

If your ponds are not netted you are endangering
nature yet don't seem too concerned.


You have NO IDEA what I've been doing or not doing in the last 2 years. And
you put culls and pox-infected fish in stock ponds..... and plan to do so
still.

What did I accuse you of- assuming before asking me
for more info on the stock pond? WELL???


Hello? Lately you've been accusing me of lecturing and attacking, and
expecting more out of you than others.

were so very concerned about nature you would have your ponds netted and
convince everyone you know to net your ponds.


While you put culls in stock ponds? Hypocritical that.

And your messages as much as accused me of infecting a natural waterway or
lake with diseased fish so you would have to reject your own messages!!!!!


I just pointed out what "could" happen. I didn't accuse you of anything.

:-O Wow,... this is going be some group or will the moderators be able to
assume and accuse without anyone moderating them? Who will be moderating
you?


The other moderators.... one of which is Derek. Our message won't get a
free ride. ~ jan
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Old 16-02-2007, 07:29 AM posted to rec.ponds
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Default Sick koi and need advice (with pics)

On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 23:04:42 -0600, Zëbulon wrote:

Since you have such a negative attitude where I'm concerned Jan, I would
rather you don't even look at anything I post on a m.r.p. Let someone else
handle my messages.


Works for me, don't complain if your messages take longer to post than
others. The initials, btw, are RPM. ~ jan


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Old 16-02-2007, 08:33 AM posted to rec.ponds
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Default Sick koi and need advice (with pics)


"~ jan" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 22:57:00 -0600, Zëbulon
wrote:


THANK YOU! I also have permission from the owner of that pond to release
my
culls there.


Unless you can net it, better not... according to what you say below that
I
should do.


So you think it's OK to release "diseased" fish in farm ponds? I got the
impression from your past messages that I shouldn't do that because there
may be a huge heron to come by and take a fish and drop it in a river or
lake. I misunderstood. So really said it was ok to release them in a farm
pond. It's a bit confusing now if you said it's ok or not ok. If you feel
it's not OK then indeed you should net your own ponds so as not to be a
hypocrite. You never know when a huge heron will snatch up one of your fish
carrying a parasite or incubating a disease and infect a waterway in your
area. I'm sure you agree. :-)

As for netting. If you were as concerned about huge birds carrying fish and
dropping them in natural waterways you would already have netted your ponds.
Let me know when you net yours and I'll speak to the owners of the stock
ponds about netting theirs. ;-)

A contradiction? Nowhere did I clam they definitely 100% do not exist
here.


You implied you only had green herons, too small to carry off large koi.


All I've seen for the past 25 years are the small herons.

I've never seen one. Can you guarantee there is or isn't one where you
live.


Huh? Yeah, I've seen them, plenty of times.


OK, I haven't. All we see here are the small herons and cranes which stay
around the lake. They're not known to bother ornamental ponds here.

If your ponds are not netted you are endangering
nature yet don't seem too concerned.


You have NO IDEA what I've been doing or not doing in the last 2 years.
And
you put culls and pox-infected fish in stock ponds..... and plan to do so
still.


You have no idea what I do either so why ACCUSE me of doing anything? For
all I know herons can be carrying your DISEASED fish and dropping them all
over the place, in all the ponds, rivers and lakes in your area. Since you
have no nets there's nothing to stop them. How do you know what I plan to
do in the future? Are you now claiming you can read crystal balls or tea
leaves? :-O Are you going to send me pox infested fish Jan? I know
this will disappoint you but I don't have anymore with pox. Can you handle
that? So were do you think I'll get them from? The culls yes. Why does
that bother you so much? Why does it get your goat that the farmers allow
this for mosquito control?


What did I accuse you of- assuming before asking me
for more info on the stock pond? WELL???



Hello? Lately you've been accusing me of lecturing and attacking, and
expecting more out of you than others.


WELL haven't you? Since when did you treat other posters like this? You
never even said a word about these stock ponds and my culls and I mention
them every year at least. Suddenly *NOW*... you have so much to say about
the subject. Why is that?

were so very concerned about nature you would have your ponds netted and
convince everyone you know to net your ponds.


While you put culls in stock ponds? Hypocritical that.


Well than you're not at all concerned about Nature are you? You're going on
and on about putting culls in a farm pond while at the same time you let the
herons carry off your fish and drop them in the rivers and lakes all over
the place. What's the difference? You have no nets and the farmer's have no
nets = same thing! :-)))

And your messages as much as accused me of infecting a natural waterway
or
lake with diseased fish so you would have to reject your own messages!!!!!


I just pointed out what "could" happen. I didn't accuse you of anything.


And I'm pointing out that it could happen in your own pond, but instead of
looking at your own ponds where fish can be carried away, you look at the
farmer's pond and go on and on about it, knowing full well no pond is 100%
disease and parasite free. Yet you're not concerned about herons carrying
your fish and dropping them everywhere.... why is that? Your fish are no
healthier than anyone else's nor are they 100% disease and parasite free.


:-O Wow,... this is going be some group or will the moderators be able to
assume and accuse without anyone moderating them? Who will be moderating
you?



The other moderators.... one of which is Derek. Our message won't get a
free ride. ~ jan


Good, because I can see where you're trying to go with this.

This one takes the cake though - Pot (jan) calling kettles (farmers) black.
It's ok for the herons to drop your fish everywhere but not culls from a
farmer's pond........
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*





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Old 16-02-2007, 08:40 AM posted to rec.ponds
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Default Sick koi and need advice (with pics)


"~ jan" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 23:04:42 -0600, Zëbulon
wrote:

Since you have such a negative attitude where I'm concerned Jan, I would
rather you don't even look at anything I post on a m.r.p. Let someone
else
handle my messages.


Works for me, don't complain if your messages take longer to post than
others. The initials, btw, are RPM. ~ jan

=================================
I'd rather they take an hour longer and be fairly judged by someone who is
neutral than by you with all your resentments and bitterness. If you think
you're hiding how you feel, you're badly mistaken.

And Jan, until you completely protect your ponds with nets to keep out all
predators and anything that can carry one of your diseased fish, and no fish
is 100% clean, and drop them in natural waterways you have no right to talk
about someone else including myself or the farmers who own these man made
stock-ponds.
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*




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Old 16-02-2007, 09:44 AM posted to rec.ponds
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Default Sick koi and need advice (with pics)

Roy "Tristan" Hauer NET-STALKER SUGGESTS MURDER of cripples and old ladies
spewed more vomit in message
...
Some just need to be knocked in the head and tell God they died........


You gonna knock her in the head hero? Gonna use a crowbar or a brick? You
need to get back on your meds. Get
back to the VA where you belong before you kill yourself of someone else
when you finally flip your cookies.


Its quite evident a raw nerve was struck on CArol Gulley once again as
the truths of this person comes to light. When this happens you always
get a full melt down, in her quest to try and cover up and detract
anything that was in direct truth with her and her ways.....Get over
it carol we all lknow who is behind this mess. You can point your
finger all you want, we jusyt look at the arm its attacked to and then
look up and its your mugg, no matter what name is used.....

Your a real pathetic individual carol........not one other group
thinks for a minute allthose psts from Bellsouth is from me. They know
its you or at least you are responsible for it.......your loosing it
Carol.....Please turn on that camera so we can witness this real time
meltdown........and your welcome to webcam your nudie shots to
your favorite vermin and rodent extermination groups with it after
we get to see your meltdown......


"Gill Passman" wrote in message
...
Zëbulon wrote:

"scs0" wrote in message
ups.com...


Any ideas on what's going on? If so, what do I do about it?


===================================
Check this site:

http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/...phocystis.html

I had a beautiful deep yellow female diamond-scale butterfly koi with
this disease. It looked exactly like what your fish has. She would
appear cured at times but it always came back. She went to a farm stock
pond rather than keep her with the other fish and possibly infect them.


This is what you said....this is suggesting someone go dump a fish
somewhere else....by disagreeing with this I am not trolling you or
carrying out anything you have going on in your head....I am saying that
this is irresponsible and bad advice....You sent her to a pond where she
would/could infect other fish....but not yours......you should have
taken the responsible action of euthanising this fish not releasing it
elsewhere to infect others.....

You just don't get it do you....

Gill



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Old 16-02-2007, 02:35 PM posted to rec.ponds
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Default Sick koi and need advice (with pics)

lymphocystis ... http://www.glfc.org/tumor/f12.gif
I have one with it, none of my others got it since 1999, so isnt too contagious. I
have seen carp in the Hudson river with huge carp pox around the mouth, very healthy
otherwise. Ingrid

~ jan wrote:
Great shots! Pictures worth a 1000 words as they say. I'm thinking
Lymphocystis... more commonly called Carp Pox or it could be columaris....

They can be contagious, but not easily. Usually, if Carp Pox they get
better or go away when the season changes and the water warms up, only to
come back in the fall. Do a search on those things and then decide your
course of treatment. ~ jan



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Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan
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Old 16-02-2007, 04:38 PM posted to rec.ponds
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Default Sick koi and need advice (with pics)

On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 01:33:50 -0600, Zëbulon wrote:

THANK YOU! I also have permission from the owner of that pond to release
my culls there.


Unless you can net it, better not... according to what you say below that
I should do.


So you think it's OK to release "diseased" fish in farm ponds?


Since when is a "cull" a diseased fish? Carol, stay within the message of
the thread you're posting to. Us simple minded folk get quite confused
otherwise.

Let me know when you net yours and I'll speak to the owners of the stock
ponds about netting theirs. ;-)


Riiiiight.

OK, I haven't. All we see here are the small herons and cranes which stay
around the lake. They're not known to bother ornamental ponds here.


Then why say "in a previous thread" GBHeron are "around"?

You have no idea what I do either so why ACCUSE me of doing anything?


Cause you tell us every day? I can find you in half a dozen forums. You
won't see me telling my life story everywhere.

Heck, right now you're having a jolly time beating the horse, cheap chow
topic, to death in NGP.

For all I know herons can be carrying your DISEASED fish and dropping them all
over the place, in all the ponds, rivers and lakes in your area.


If I had diseased fish, they'd be pulled out to QT or put down before a
heron could sail in.... but truth be told, my ponds must be pretty
inaccessible to them, because I've had GB herons in my yard and on my roof
and not had a koi taken (yet). Doing the winter the ponds are screened.

How do you know what I plan to do in the future?


I don't need crystal balls or tea leaves when I have the internet. Just
read what you type here, there and everywhere, it isn't hard to figure out.

Are you going to send me pox infested fish Jan? I know
this will disappoint you but I don't have anymore with pox. Can you handle
that? So were do you think I'll get them from? The culls yes. Why does
that bother you so much? Why does it get your goat that the farmers allow
this for mosquito control?


The above is all lashing out again, a total joke.

WELL haven't you?


Nope, just been discussing the topic.

Since when did you treat other posters like this?


I think I've treated you as fairly as any other posters who posts & replies
like you.

You never even said a word about these stock ponds and my culls and I mention
them every year at least. Suddenly *NOW*... you have so much to say about
the subject. Why is that?


I only speak up when there is no one else who mentioned it. And basically
there are few of us left.

Well than you're not at all concerned about Nature are you?


Lashing out, hypocritical accusation.

You're going on
and on about putting culls in a farm pond while at the same time you let the
herons carry off your fish and drop them in the rivers and lakes all over
the place. What's the difference? You have no nets and the farmer's have no
nets = same thing! :-)))


Covered that. :-))))))

And I'm pointing out that it could happen in your own pond, but instead of
looking at your own ponds where fish can be carried away, you look at the
farmer's pond and go on and on about it, knowing full well no pond is 100%
disease and parasite free.


The only person going on and on is you.

This one takes the cake though - Pot (jan) calling kettles (farmers) black.
It's ok for the herons to drop your fish everywhere but not culls from a
farmer's pond........


Your argument is so full of holes it is ridi.... ah furgetaboutit! ~ jan


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Old 16-02-2007, 05:58 PM posted to rec.ponds
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Default Sick koi and need advice (with pics)


wrote in message
...
lymphocystis ... http://www.glfc.org/tumor/f12.gif
I have one with it, none of my others got it since 1999, so isnt too
contagious. I
have seen carp in the Hudson river with huge carp pox around the mouth,
very healthy
otherwise. Ingrid

================
My koi had it for years. None of the other fish caught it. The lesion was
removed along with 1/4" of healthy fin tissue before she went to the man
made stock pond. The other reason was all that catfish and trout chow had
her so healthy she laid thousands of eggs into mid-summer. This created
hundreds of unwanted fry overcrowding whatever pond or tank she was in.
They'd have to be drained down and the fry removed. A real PIA. I decided
with her excessive spawning and the pox.... she had to go.
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*




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Old 16-02-2007, 06:04 PM posted to rec.ponds
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Default Sick koi and need advice (with pics)


"~ jan" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 01:33:50 -0600, Zëbulon
wrote:


THANK YOU! I also have permission from the owner of that pond to
release
my culls there.

Unless you can net it, better not... according to what you say below
that
I should do.


So you think it's OK to release "diseased" fish in farm ponds?


Since when is a "cull" a diseased fish? Carol, stay within the message of
the thread you're posting to. Us simple minded folk get quite confused
otherwise.


As do I.


Let me know when you net yours and I'll speak to the owners of the stock
ponds about netting theirs. ;-)


Riiiiight.

OK, I haven't. All we see here are the small herons and cranes which stay
around the lake. They're not known to bother ornamental ponds here.


Then why say "in a previous thread" GBHeron are "around"?


No YOU said they're all over the USA. I said if we have them here I've never
seen one.


You have no idea what I do either so why ACCUSE me of doing anything?


Cause you tell us every day? I can find you in half a dozen forums. You
won't see me telling my life story everywhere.


My life story? I have nothing to be ashamed of - do you?

Heck, right now you're having a jolly time beating the horse, cheap chow
topic, to death in NGP.


And you're having a jolly time beating the "diseased fish" topic to death
here. What's the difference? Pot calling kettle black Jan? Why can't I do
what you do?

snip... it's all be covered several times already. :-)
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*




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Old 16-02-2007, 06:04 PM posted to rec.ponds
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Default Sick koi and need advice (with pics)



ah, yea right!
Stlil trying like hell to justify your immoral and illegal act CArol?
Give it up, we all know you for what you truely are!


On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:58:48 -0600, Zëbulon
wrote:


wrote in message
...
lymphocystis ... http://www.glfc.org/tumor/f12.gif
I have one with it, none of my others got it since 1999, so isnt too
contagious. I
have seen carp in the Hudson river with huge carp pox around the mouth,
very healthy
otherwise. Ingrid
================
My koi had it for years. None of the other fish caught it. The lesion was
removed along with 1/4" of healthy fin tissue before she went to the man
made stock pond. The other reason was all that catfish and trout chow had
her so healthy she laid thousands of eggs into mid-summer. This created
hundreds of unwanted fry overcrowding whatever pond or tank she was in.
They'd have to be drained down and the fry removed. A real PIA. I decided
with her excessive spawning and the pox.... she had to go.



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!
  #74   Report Post  
Old 16-02-2007, 06:31 PM posted to rec.ponds
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First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Dec 2006
Posts: 514
Default Sick koi and need advice (with pics)

On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:04:35 -0600, Zëbulon
wrote:

snip

Why can't I do
what you do?

snip...

Not hard to figure that out,. You lack morales and scruples and even
the slighrest bit of integrity and honor

Hope that answers your question CArol, as I do think this has been
covered quite a few times previously..


-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!
  #75   Report Post  
Old 17-02-2007, 06:09 PM posted to rec.ponds
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First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Dec 2006
Posts: 351
Default Sick koi and need advice (with pics)


"Tristan" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:04:35 -0600, Zëbulon
wrote:

snip

Why can't I do
what you do?

snip...

Not hard to figure that out,. You lack morales and scruples and even
the slighrest bit of integrity and honor

=======================
Of course. All cult members make that claim about deprogrammers and those of
us with the gonads to expose these cults. Worse yet I free as many as I can
and will even take them in if necessary. So I've heard it all before from
cult-members. Your accusations and slander is nothing new.
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*






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