[Tristin[_2_]]

I guess this means I should stop feeding my cats Rangen koi food then
huh? ;-)
Let me see if I understand this new concept of feeding varioius
species a "like" food.
Cats get cat food such as Wally Wolds SpecialKitty or Purina
Dogs get Old Roys' Doggie food such as Purina or Nutro
Birds get bird seed like Pennington MIx etc
Catfish get Catfish food like Faithways Catfish food
Trout get Trout Chow like Fathways Trout Chow
Koi get Koi food like Faithway Ornamental POnd fosh food,or Rangen


You know that makes perfectly good sence, sinse I always wondered why
a company like Faithway made Trout Chow, Catfish Feed and also
Ornamental Pond Fish food..........if they were all the same except
for the bag why pay 2x more for the pond fish food over trout chow and
also why pay 6 times more over wally worlds catfood. I guess its the
cheap in some folks along with pure ignorance that makes you want to
feed "cheap" foods such as wally world cat foods etc, to koi and
goldies. If you can not afford to do whats necessary and morally right
then I do not think some folks should have the "food" abused critters
in question, so evidently there is physical as well as nutritional
abuse possible......







-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

[Gill Passman]

This message seems to have come detached from the thread that you are
responding to so is a bit confusing......Perhaps, it might be simplest
and make more sense to those of us trying to follow the conversation if
Jan started a new thread and then Tristan (and others) could respond
under the new top....

Just an idea
Gill

[~ jan]

On Sat, 24 Feb 2007 15:51:23 +0000, Gill Passman
wrote:

This message seems to have come detached from the thread that you are
responding to so is a bit confusing......Perhaps, it might be simplest
and make more sense to those of us trying to follow the conversation if
Jan started a new thread and then Tristan (and others) could respond
under the new top....

Just an idea
Gill

I did start a new thread, but Roy messed with the . What's wrong with
you Roy? slap, slap, slap! Oh well. ;-)

I do have a reply to Roy who said something about people shouldn't have
these critters if they aren't gonna feed them right. We have to remember
that dog chow doesn't even have that long a history. People fed their dogs
scraps off the table, right? Someone saw a market and here we be.

I just feel, with what we know today, that we ought to take advantage of
that knowledge. What you feed your own critters is up to you, but what you
recommend to others you ought to do with some integrity, based on recent
studies.

Sho Koi, delivered to my door, runs me less than $5/lb. and I'd save even
more if I could order 50 lbs. of it. Manda Fu, including delivery, runs
$15/throw pillow size bag. It is very light weight, so one can't go by
weight. Probably why it is so easily digested and a great fall/spring food.
~ jan

[Reel McKoi[_2_]]

"~ jan" wrote in message
...

I do have a reply to Roy who said something about people shouldn't have
these critters if they aren't gonna feed them right. We have to remember
that dog chow doesn't even have that long a history. People fed their dogs
scraps off the table, right? Someone saw a market and here we be.

I just feel, with what we know today, that we ought to take advantage of
that knowledge. What you feed your own critters is up to you, but what you
recommend to others you ought to do with some integrity, based on recent
studies.

I don't recall anyone *recommending* the cheaper feeds. I do recall someone
replying to a poster that they fed the cheaper feeds with total success.
What people feed their fish is up to themselves and what they can afford.
If people were having all kinds of problems with trout and catfish trout
we'd be hearing about it.

Sho Koi, delivered to my door, runs me less than $5/lb. and I'd save even
more if I could order 50 lbs. of it. Manda Fu, including delivery, runs
$15/throw pillow size bag. It is very light weight, so one can't go by
weight. Probably why it is so easily digested and a great fall/spring
food.
~ jan

I haven't seen ShoKoi that cheap anywhere. Where are you getting it?
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Troll free pond and fish Forum:
http://www.karlsforums.com/forums/fo...ay.php?fid=104
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

[~ jan]

On Sat, 24 Feb 2007 14:01:40 -0600, "Reel McKoi"
wrote:

I don't recall anyone *recommending* the cheaper feeds. I do recall someone
replying to a poster that they fed the cheaper feeds with total success.

Just like newsgroups, all kinds go to pond club meetings, and very often
those that speak the loudest are often wrong. Just because they say total
success would need a follow up for me. We use to have such a member... and
we've had members who spout their wonderful cheap DYI filtration systems
also. I tell people go look, look at the filter, look at the pond. Is the
filter an eye sore? Is the pond green or murky? If so, look elsewhere.

What people feed their fish is up to themselves and what they can afford.
If people were having all kinds of problems with trout and catfish trout
we'd be hearing about it.

I have been hearing about it, many of us have mentioned it over the years.
Vets have done necropsies and verified the problems.

I haven't seen ShoKoi that cheap anywhere. Where are you getting it?

http://www.westernpond.com/koi_foods.htm Note that orders over $60 have
free shipping. I usually buy a 10 lb bag and 1 or 2 pounds of Sho Gold for
the goldfish to get the free shipping price. ~ jan

[Gill Passman]

I'm pretty much with Tristan on this one in that food designed for a
certain animal is what the animal/creature should be being fed....yes,
my cat will eat the dog food, the dog will eat the cat food, the cat
will eat the fish food (but a bit cost prohibitive to feed a cat a
couple of cartons of marine flakes twice a day at around £7 a tub - but
useful for hoovering up spillages)....the dog will eat the food I give
my guinea pig and rabbit, the guinea pig and rabbit would eat the wild
bird food I put out - the cat would eat most of whatever is on offer but
I rather fancy the cat would prefer to eat the birds, the guinea pig and
rabbit - lol......haven't tried the fish on the diets of the mammals but
I'm pretty sure they would take it....and I am also pretty sure (with
the exception of giving meat the herbivores) that everyone would put on
weight and grow with whatever mixed up diet I care to give them....but
none would be healthy long term.....

Now it may well be true that one person has success in producing fat,
big fish by feeding them cat/dog food.....but equally most of us in the
Western World have had success in producing big, fat children by feeding
them an inappropriate diet....if we argue that the diets are
inappropriate for the children perhaps it should also be considered that
certain diets are inappropriate for our pets for the same reason.....

Now if the motivation is to get good bucks for fat, large but
potentially unhealthy fish then I guess that this is something we see
all the time in the fish trade...but it doesn't make it right.....

Now, when it comes to fish food.....expensive does not equal
good.....equally cheap doesn't equal the equivalent to other available
foods.....personally I've tried a number of foods (of varying price
tags) for my tank fish.....the conclusion has actually been that the
mid-range food suits better.....but not really because of how the fish
grow, colour etc. etc....but because of the impact on the water
quality......cheap foods contain a lot of bulk that eventually pollutes
the water with nitrates and phosphates, higher priced foods contain a
lot of protein (IME) which equally pollute the water with that rather
nasty oily skim on the surface (I dread to think what a high protein
cat/dog diet does - as afterall cat and dog food is designed to satisfy
the needs of carnivores).....the key is to find the food that suits you,
your environment and your fish.....Fish food suited to the fish is the
starting point....experimentation with it to get the desired results and
maintain the health of your fish is the goal.....feeding food not
designed for the animal in question is a non-starter....

Gill (getting off soap box for an hour or two)

[Reel McKoi[_2_]]

"~ jan" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Feb 2007 14:01:40 -0600, "Reel McKoi"
wrote:

I don't recall anyone *recommending* the cheaper feeds. I do recall
someone
replying to a poster that they fed the cheaper feeds with total success.

Just like newsgroups, all kinds go to pond club meetings, and very often
those that speak the loudest are often wrong.

Maybe it wasn't wrong for them since they weren't having problems with their
fish. Look at the low-carb diets people are on these days. Some have been
on them for many years and are in perfect health. Others, also in perfect
health are vegetarians who may only eat an occasional egg or fish dinner.

Just because they say total
success would need a follow up for me.

Well,... here's one follow up. My fish have been on the cheaper foods for
years now without a problem. I'm sure there are others here as well,
thought after these debates they're probably afraid to come forward and
discuss their failures or successes.

We use to have such a member... and
we've had members who spout their wonderful cheap DYI filtration systems
also. I tell people go look, look at the filter, look at the pond. Is the
filter an eye sore? Is the pond green or murky? If so, look elsewhere.

Maybe cheap DYI filters are all they can afford. Not everyone has a 6 figure
income.

What people feed their fish is up to themselves and what they can afford.
If people were having all kinds of problems with trout and catfish trout
we'd be hearing about it.

I have been hearing about it, many of us have mentioned it over the years.
Vets have done necropsies and verified the problems.

I haven't seen anyone here mention their vet finding their koi dying do to
feeding trout and catfish chow.

I haven't seen ShoKoi that cheap anywhere. Where are you getting it?

http://www.westernpond.com/koi_foods.htm Note that orders over $60 have
free shipping. I usually buy a 10 lb bag and 1 or 2 pounds of Sho Gold for
the goldfish to get the free shipping price. ~ jan

Well I tried the $5 lb food and was disappointed so.... If I start having
problems with my koi and goldfish I'll look into buying these "rip off"
priced feeds.
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

[Reel McKoi[_2_]]

"Gill Passman" wrote in message
...
I'm pretty much with Tristan on this one in that food designed for a
certain animal is what the animal/creature should be being fed....yes, my
cat will eat the dog food, the dog will eat the cat food, the cat will eat
the fish food (but a bit cost prohibitive to feed a cat a couple of
cartons of marine flakes twice a day at around £7 a tub - but useful for
hoovering up spillages)....the dog will eat the food I give my guinea pig
and rabbit, the guinea pig and rabbit would eat the wild bird food I put
out - the cat would eat most of whatever is on offer but I rather fancy
the cat would prefer to eat the birds, the guinea pig and rabbit -
lol......haven't tried the fish on the diets of the mammals but I'm pretty
sure they would take it....and I am also pretty sure (with the exception
of giving meat the herbivores) that everyone would put on weight and grow
with whatever mixed up diet I care to give them....but none would be
healthy long term.....
Now it may well be true that one person has success in producing fat, big
fish by feeding them cat/dog food...
...but equally most of us in the
Western World have had success in producing big, fat children by feeding
them an inappropriate diet...


Not FAT fish. That's overfeeding. Well fleshed is not fat. We have a 4
month winter here so the fish have to carry enough fat to see them through.
By spring they're the perfect weight and breed like crazy. There's a big
difference between fat and well fed - be they children, dogs, gerbils or
fish.

..if we argue that the diets are
inappropriate for the children perhaps it should also be considered that
certain diets are inappropriate for our pets for the same reason.....

Now if the motivation is to get good bucks for fat, large but potentially
unhealthy fish

Don't assume they're unhealthy. Unhealthy fish don't survive 4+ month
winters and breed more fry than their ponds can hold.

then I guess that this is something we see
all the time in the fish trade...but it doesn't make it right.....

Now, when it comes to fish food.....expensive does not equal
good.....equally cheap doesn't equal the equivalent to other available
foods.....personally I've tried a number of foods (of varying price tags)
for my tank fish.....the conclusion has actually been that the mid-range
food suits better.....but not really because of how the fish grow, colour
etc. etc....but because of the impact on the water quality......

Aquarium fish are more limited in the availability of natural foods. My fish
have access to things indoor fish do not.

cheap foods contain a lot of bulk that eventually pollutes
the water with nitrates and phosphates, higher priced foods contain a lot
of protein (IME) which equally pollute the water with that rather nasty
oily skim on the surface (I dread to think what a high protein cat/dog
diet does - as afterall cat and dog food is designed to satisfy the needs
of carnivores).....the key is to find the food that suits you, your
environment and your fish.....Fish food suited to the fish is the starting
point....experimentation with it to get the desired results and maintain
the health of your fish is the goal....

Exactly, and if your fish thrive on trout and catfish chow.... stick with
it. Don't rock the boat or fix something if it isn't broken.

..feeding food not
designed for the animal in question is a non-starter....

So are we to assume you only feed natural foods to your children such as
veggies, fruit and meat? No snacks, no candy, no pie, no bread, no chips,
no milk past weaning... only the natural foods we would find in the wild
that we evolved with and thrive on?

Gill (getting off soap box for an hour or two)
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Troll free pond and fish Forum:
http://www.karlsforums.com/forums/fo...ay.php?fid=104
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

[Phyllis and Jim]

Vets have done necropsies and verified the problems.

Jan,

Are any of their findings available to us?

Jim

[~ jan]

On 24 Feb 2007 19:32:26 -0800, "Phyllis and Jim"
wrote:

Vets have done necropsies and verified the problems.

Jan,

Are any of their findings available to us?

Jim

I'll see if I can find something. ~ jan

[Reel McKoi[_2_]]

"Phyllis and Jim" wrote in message
ps.com...
Vets have done necropsies and verified the problems.

Jan,

Are any of their findings available to us?

Jim

====================
I'm curious to know how these veterinarians are related to the pond fish
(koi) industry. Also who paid for or supported the research. How many years
it was carried out and in what climate/zones. And how old were the fry when
the research started. What where the growth rates between the different koi
feeds in the research program compared to the trout and catfish foods. What
conditions were the koi living under. What University was the research done
at......
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

[Gill Passman]

~ jan wrote:
On 24 Feb 2007 19:32:26 -0800, "Phyllis and Jim"
wrote:


Vets have done necropsies and verified the problems.

Jan,

Are any of their findings available to us?

Jim


I'll see if I can find something. ~ jan

That would be very interesting if you can - my guess would be that the
key is a varied diet suited to the nutritional needs of the
animal/creature in question....

Gill

[Phyllis and Jim]

I teach research methodology to family therapy students. Your
questions are right on target when we are in the threats to validity
section of the course. We spend time thinking of all sorts of things
that could possibly influence the outcome. Professional research
generally tries to describe the limitations of the work to guide
future researchers.

I also push my students to asses the threats as to the magnitude of
their probable influence. This set of decisions is harder to make and
imprecise because so much is unknown. A good class will produce
hundreds of possible threats, more than can be controlled unless the
researcher has nearly infinite financing. The result often reduces
the number of clearly-relevant-and-significantly-impactful threats.

We also discuss the magnitude of threat to validity that we would
consider to be important. If we were examining frequency of dyed hair
among clients, we could allow lots of threats to go by. If we were
testing medication with lethal side effects, we would want to run down
lots more of the threats.

My guess is that koi/goldfish research will provide us with some
answers to some of your questions. If Jan can find some research, we
could look at it in terms of possible threats to validity. Your
questions about who paid for the research are certainly on target.

Statistics has a bunch of sayings: 'Garbage in, garbage out' describes
the effect of poor data collection. 'There are liars, damned liars
and statisticians' describes manipulative use of research. I am sure
we will all look at nutrition studies carefully.

Jim

[Reel McKoi[_2_]]

"Phyllis and Jim" wrote in message
ups.com...
I teach research methodology to family therapy students. Your
questions are right on target when we are in the threats to validity
section of the course. We spend time thinking of all sorts of things
that could possibly influence the outcome. Professional research
generally tries to describe the limitations of the work to guide
future researchers.

I also push my students to asses the threats as to the magnitude of
their probable influence. This set of decisions is harder to make and
imprecise because so much is unknown. A good class will produce
hundreds of possible threats, more than can be controlled unless the
researcher has nearly infinite financing. The result often reduces
the number of clearly-relevant-and-significantly-impactful threats.

We also discuss the magnitude of threat to validity that we would
consider to be important. If we were examining frequency of dyed hair
among clients, we could allow lots of threats to go by. If we were
testing medication with lethal side effects, we would want to run down
lots more of the threats.

My guess is that koi/goldfish research will provide us with some
answers to some of your questions. If Jan can find some research, we
could look at it in terms of possible threats to validity. Your
questions about who paid for the research are certainly on target.

Statistics has a bunch of sayings: 'Garbage in, garbage out' describes
the effect of poor data collection. 'There are liars, damned liars
and statisticians' describes manipulative use of research. I am sure
we will all look at nutrition studies carefully.

Jim
========================
Well said and worth repeating, so no brevity snips. Meanwhile until more is
known I'll feed them as I did before. I'll save myself over $200 a year and
have fry with enough weight to see them through our zone 6 winters. The
filters were no cleaner either on the $5 lb food. I wonder if anyone really
knows what koi and goldfish live on in the wild. From my observations over
the years they appear to be omnivores. If they can get it in their mouth and
swallow it, they'll eat it with the exception if fish fry.

I also remember the beautiful huge koi at Flushing Meadow Corona Park in the
1970s. They thrived on a diet of popcorn, bits of hot-dogs and hot-dog buns,
whatever "junk food" people tossed in to them... plus whatever natural food
existed in the water course.

BTW, I went back to that zoo last Sept. We didn't see any, but they had
redone the entire zoo area.

--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

[[email protected]]

I am old enough to remember when we had dogs we bought frozen raw horse meat for
them. later my parents starting feeding "kibble". I have one dog (inherited) who
went to emergency with congestive heart failure. 1500 bucks later I got back a nearly
dead dog with "6 months to live". She is allergic to nearly everything. She looked
listless on her allergy and then her "heart" diet and her fur (she is a Pom) was like
straw. At the same time our new springer broke out in hot spots and granuloma.
1.5 years ago I switched all the dogs to a raw meaty bone diet, the Pom is fed whole
raw fish (that includes head, tail, innards). Within a week she is back to bright,
sassy, and now her fur is like silk. It is now 1 year 9 months since she almost
died. None of my dogs have bad teeth anymore, none foul breath, none itchy or
problem skin, their coats are all full and lush.

Dog evolved for over a million years and their food is nearly 100% raw meaty bone.
Now that so many "premium" diets are sickening and killing dogs due to fungal toxins
growing on the grain used in the diets, so many dogs have allergies, cancer, etc.
more people are taking dogs back to natural raw meaty bones diets.

Who has the money and interest to do the research to answer these questions? it isnt
simply one dog food, there are hundreds. For most dogs the grain based food works OK
so the number of dogs would have to be very large to get any kind of significance.
Or maybe not.

I do know one thing brought home the need for proper food diets was a study I'd seen
done on ferrets. I used to have ferrets but it broke my heart that they went into
this horrible decline between 2-3 and died so young. I had no idea why this was
happening until I read up on raw diets for dogs, then did a search on the net.

http://www.wessexferretclub.co.uk/comments.htm It is not standard research, but
some one that has tried various things and kept track.

I think the same is true of fish. Koi and Goldfish dont eat "veggies", they eat the
itty bitty critters on the algae. In China and Japan they power feed the young ones
live food like blood worms, black worms, daphnia, etc. all manner of "meat". I have
been feeding my koi a high quality koi food, Rangen koi color. It isnt ideal, but I
havent had any disease in my fish since I went to this food (and a veggie filter and
heating the pond in winter). So I dont really know which is responsible for the
health of my fish. In spring I do see a little bit of white crap on a few of them,
especially my black koi which show everything. But as the water warms it goes away.

I feed my 22 fish about 1/2 cup a day. The less waste grains in the food, the less
mess in the water, the less ammonia too. This coming year I am going to look for
even more natural food, something like this
http://www.jehmco.com/PRODUCTS_/FISH...eze_dried.html

Ingrid


~ jan wrote:
I do have a reply to Roy who said something about people shouldn't have
these critters if they aren't gonna feed them right. We have to remember
that dog chow doesn't even have that long a history. People fed their dogs
scraps off the table, right? Someone saw a market and here we be.

I just feel, with what we know today, that we ought to take advantage of
that knowledge. What you feed your own critters is up to you, but what you
recommend to others you ought to do with some integrity, based on recent
studies.

Sho Koi, delivered to my door, runs me less than $5/lb. and I'd save even
more if I could order 50 lbs. of it. Manda Fu, including delivery, runs
$15/throw pillow size bag. It is very light weight, so one can't go by
weight. Probably why it is so easily digested and a great fall/spring food.
~ jan



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