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Sick koi and need advice (with pics)



 
 
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  #1  
Old 14-02-2007, 03:17 AM posted to rec.ponds
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11
Default Sick koi and need advice (with pics)

I have a koi with an unusual growth on its tail fin that looks like a
praying mantis egg sac. The fish also has hazy white areas on its
body. On its back there is a large opaque oval and I noticed some
smaller areas on its head. I first noticed issues with this fish in
the spring of 2005 and put it into a holding container with another
fish for several weeks as I dosed it with anti-bacterial and anti-
fungal medicines. It didn't seem to get better but upon closer look
it didn't seem like these white areas were disease, so I blew them off
as possibly an ugly batch of scales.

Now it's early 2007 and those white areas still exist and are possibly
larger but not substantially. The growth on the tail is something I
just noticed a few weeks ago and definitely is not healthy. I think
another of those growths exists on the underside of the fish near the
tail fin, but as you can imagine it's difficult to net and examine
this fish close up. The end of the fin itself seems to be diseased,
yet not in a way that would cause tearing.

If I had to take a guess I'd say this fish is at least 18" long and is
at least 2.5 years old and the other fish in the pond seem healthy.

Here are links to some photos:

The odd growth == http://s1974.home.comcast.net/sick_koi.JPG
The white region == http://s1974.home.comcast.net/sick_koi2.JPG

I have a feeling this isn't a bacterial infection, fungal disease, or
parasite because those issues should have spread to the other fish in
the 2 years that I've noticed odd health issues with this one. The
only other thing I can think of would be some sort of fish cancer, but
I'm not a vet so I have no clue.

Any ideas on what's going on? If so, what do I do about it?

Ads
  #2  
Old 14-02-2007, 03:36 AM posted to rec.ponds
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Posts: 118
Default Sick koi and need advice (with pics)

On 13 Feb 2007 18:17:37 -0800, "scs0" wrote:


Here are links to some photos:

The odd growth == http://s1974.home.comcast.net/sick_koi.JPG
The white region == http://s1974.home.comcast.net/sick_koi2.JPG


Great shots! Pictures worth a 1000 words as they say. I'm thinking
Lymphocystis... more commonly called Carp Pox or it could be columaris....

They can be contagious, but not easily. Usually, if Carp Pox they get
better or go away when the season changes and the water warms up, only to
come back in the fall. Do a search on those things and then decide your
course of treatment. ~ jan
--------------
See my ponds and filter design:
www.jjspond.us

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website
  #3  
Old 14-02-2007, 03:47 AM posted to rec.ponds
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Posts: 351
Default Sick koi and need advice (with pics)


"scs0" wrote in message
ups.com...

Any ideas on what's going on? If so, what do I do about it?

===================================
Check this site:

http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/...phocystis.html

I had a beautiful deep yellow female diamond-scale butterfly koi with this
disease. It looked exactly like what your fish has. She would appear cured
at times but it always came back. She went to a farm stock pond rather than
keep her with the other fish and possibly infect them.
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Troll free pond and fish Forum:
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(Ų ~~~~ }((((({*




  #4  
Old 14-02-2007, 04:37 AM posted to rec.ponds
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Posts: 514
Default Sick koi and need advice (with pics)

Oh thats really good thinking there CArol. Push off yur sick or
diseased fish and put it in a farm pond out of sight out of mind and
let who ever has the farm pond worry about their fish coming down
with what ever the koi had if its communicable. At a minimum it should
have been euthanized and not dumped in another body of water, but
better yet, just like you told me, if you can not afford to take care
of your fish properly you should not have any..........you do
remember that statement don't you? Probably not, your suffering from
yet another bout of selective memory recall when things don't agree
with you. Yet your tract record of erroneous and bad advice predeeds
you as usual.

Looking at those pics my "Guess" is not worth a darn as I really d
not have a clue. None of my info from the university of Florida eveh
has anyhting like this listed, however its possible its an ulcer.
Short of finding a bona fide answer, I would dab it with some
potassium permanganate paste..Only do this one time, then apply some
panalog or other antibiotic ointment, and cover it with denture
powder. Yea sounds weird but if its an ulcer it will fix it. Let me
send the pics to a "fish doc" I know here locally and see what he
says.




On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 20:47:39 -0600, ZŽbulon
wrote:


"scs0" wrote in message
egroups.com...

Any ideas on what's going on? If so, what do I do about it?
===================================
Check this site:

http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/...phocystis.html

I had a beautiful deep yellow female diamond-scale butterfly koi with this
disease. It looked exactly like what your fish has. She would appear cured
at times but it always came back. She went to a farm stock pond rather than
keep her with the other fish and possibly infect them.



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!
  #5  
Old 14-02-2007, 05:09 AM posted to rec.ponds
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Posts: 351
Default Sick koi and need advice (with pics)


"Tristan" wrote in message
...

snip same old BS
==========================
Who cares what you think when you tell people to break the law and shoot and
kill protected water birds such as herons?
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
http://www.ganesha.org/ptb/hipcrime.html
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(Ų ~~~~ }((((({*





  #6  
Old 14-02-2007, 05:19 AM posted to rec.ponds
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Posts: 514
Default Sick koi and need advice (with pics)



Here is the skinny

It has two possibilitys Koi herpes virus (KHV) / Carp Pox on that
tail.....as for the whitish film on scales, it could be a thicker
slime coat or it could be a poor section of scales but odds are its
due to Koi herpes virus (KHV) White spots on scales as such can be a
positive visual indicator for Koi Pox ....The fish is definately
stressed as there is lots of red streaks in the tail which is a good
indicator of stress or on set of a bacterial / viral infection. It
would be good to have a complete set of water parameters . Koi POx or
CArp POx can make fleshy warty growths on a fish as well but its not a
fatal disease. If it is Koi Herpes (KHV) its required to be reported
to the Dept of agriculture due to its seriousness. ONly one way to
really tell and that is to have it checked and have a scope done and
look for the herpes or pox virus.....

Check out Universtiy of Florida in regards toKoi herpes virus (KHV)
Info.

KHV is contagious so a QT is best. Mortaility is high with KHV....

Certainly not smart to arbitraily toss in a farm pond as another
stated as KHV is highly contagaious to other fish in that species be
it fat head minnows or goldfish.



On 13 Feb 2007 18:17:37 -0800, "scs0" wrote:

I have a koi with an unusual growth on its tail fin that looks like a
praying mantis egg sac. The fish also has hazy white areas on its
body. On its back there is a large opaque oval and I noticed some
smaller areas on its head. I first noticed issues with this fish in
the spring of 2005 and put it into a holding container with another
fish for several weeks as I dosed it with anti-bacterial and anti-
fungal medicines. It didn't seem to get better but upon closer look
it didn't seem like these white areas were disease, so I blew them off
as possibly an ugly batch of scales.

Now it's early 2007 and those white areas still exist and are possibly
larger but not substantially. The growth on the tail is something I
just noticed a few weeks ago and definitely is not healthy. I think
another of those growths exists on the underside of the fish near the
tail fin, but as you can imagine it's difficult to net and examine
this fish close up. The end of the fin itself seems to be diseased,
yet not in a way that would cause tearing.

If I had to take a guess I'd say this fish is at least 18" long and is
at least 2.5 years old and the other fish in the pond seem healthy.

Here are links to some photos:

The odd growth == http://s1974.home.comcast.net/sick_koi.JPG
The white region == http://s1974.home.comcast.net/sick_koi2.JPG

I have a feeling this isn't a bacterial infection, fungal disease, or
parasite because those issues should have spread to the other fish in
the 2 years that I've noticed odd health issues with this one. The
only other thing I can think of would be some sort of fish cancer, but
I'm not a vet so I have no clue.

Any ideas on what's going on? If so, what do I do about it?



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!
  #7  
Old 14-02-2007, 05:29 AM posted to rec.ponds
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Posts: 514
Default Sick koi and need advice (with pics)



Great day, how did we go from koi herpes Virus to herons.your a bona
fide lunatic carol.......meltdown, meltdown, take action, lunatic on
the loose!


See, if we were on terms I would , show you my permit to harvest
herons , oh hell I ain't even gonna discuss it with you as it matters
not. What matters is finding an answer to this persons fish illness
and your beligerant belly acheing is not helping him any now is it. So
please go away and troll else where.

But I think yur totally off the wall tossing a highly contagious sick
fish into another persons pond and walking away from yur
responsibility, and possibly be the cause of a massive outbreak. YOu
got class CArol, real class, about as much class as the Nazi's did
during WWII . Your also a class act....and a fool!


On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 22:09:00 -0600, ZŽbulon
wrote:


"Tristan" wrote in message
m...

snip same old BS
==========================
Who cares what you think when you tell people to break the law and shoot and
kill protected water birds such as herons?



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!
  #8  
Old 14-02-2007, 07:20 PM posted to rec.ponds
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Posts: 269
Default Sick koi and need advice (with pics)

ZŽbulon wrote:


Who cares what you think when you tell people to break the law and shoot
and kill protected water birds such as herons?


Shooting at herons is legal in the UK providing that the gun is licenced
- I'm not sure if there is a need to get a special licence to shoot at
herons but from what I've heard from someone who keeps a fishery in
Scotland it does not appear to be....and the whole question of shooting
herons has no relevance to the OP question about his sick fish.

The dumping of Koi and Goldfish is illegal over here even if they are
healthy.....the dumping of a diseased fish is even worse IMNSO and
totally irresponsible...

Gill
  #9  
Old 14-02-2007, 08:17 PM posted to rec.ponds
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Posts: 11
Default Sick koi and need advice (with pics)

From what I've gathered my koi's problem may be:

Carp pox (aka Lymphocystis)
Or
Koi herpes


I'm unclear on whether or not Carp Pox and Koi Herpes are different
diseases or just the same name for the same thing.

I don't want to kill the fish, but it certainly sounds like I should
isolate this one. That's a bit of a pain considering the size these
fish are getting to, but one thing I learned is that these bigger fish
are much lazier and easier to catch than the impossible-to-catch
younger ones. I definitely don't want to contact the Department of
Agriculture. Government and environmental issues are a scary thing to
mix and I've heard the horror stories. I'd probably end up with 100
euthanized koi and a demolished pond. I'll be lucky if they don't
find a way to condemn my property altogether!


I would like to get out of this without the death of this fish. I've
never really liked its color patterns too much but that's a mean
reason to settle for its euthanization!

Don't worry; the last thing I'll do is release this fish into the wild
or any other body of water for that matter.

  #10  
Old 14-02-2007, 09:14 PM posted to rec.ponds
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Posts: 351
Default Sick koi and need advice (with pics)


"Gill Passman" wrote in message
...
ZŽbulon wrote:


Who cares what you think when you tell people to break the law and shoot
and kill protected water birds such as herons?


Shooting at herons is legal in the UK.......


The person who recommend the illegal killing of the birds lives in the USA,
not the UK. The country was not specified by Roy "Tristan" Hauer.

providing that the gun is licenced
- I'm not sure if there is a need to get a special licence to shoot at
herons but from what I've heard from someone who keeps a fishery in
Scotland it does not appear to be....and the whole question of shooting
herons has no relevance to the OP question about his sick fish.


Nor did the insulting TROLL post have any relevance to anthing to do with
ponds or fishkeeping.

The dumping of Koi and Goldfish is illegal over here even if they are
healthy....


That doesn't not apply to where I or the person who recommended the illegal
killing of protected birds live - the USA. The farm stock pond in question
is cleaned out constantly by predators. There is no way the fish can make
it to a waterway.

..the dumping of a diseased fish is even worse IMNSO and
totally irresponsible...


Of course it's worse in your opinion - I posted it. It's called "pack
attack." ;-) Your endless psychology to get rid of Roy "Tristan" Hauer's
trolling here by harassing me and constantly criticizing me isn't going to
work Gill so give it up. That's a nice girl. :-)))
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(Ų ~~~~ }((((({*






  #11  
Old 14-02-2007, 09:20 PM posted to rec.ponds
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Posts: 351
Default Sick koi and need advice (with pics)


"scs0" wrote in message
oups.com...
From what I've gathered my koi's problem may be:


Carp pox (aka Lymphocystis)


Since it's lived so long it's probably pox. You can also check
www.koivet.com for more information on koi diseases.

Or
Koi herpes


I'm unclear on whether or not Carp Pox and Koi Herpes are different
diseases or just the same name for the same thing.

I don't want to kill the fish, but it certainly sounds like I should
isolate this one.


That's what I did with mine because of her beauty, but the pox always came
back. I finally decided she had to go.

That's a bit of a pain considering the size these
fish are getting to, but one thing I learned is that these bigger fish
are much lazier and easier to catch than the impossible-to-catch
younger ones. I definitely don't want to contact the Department of
Agriculture. Government and environmental issues are a scary thing to
mix and I've heard the horror stories. I'd probably end up with 100
euthanized koi and a demolished pond. I'll be lucky if they don't
find a way to condemn my property altogether!


Then separate the fish until you decide what to do with it. My fish was with
the others for months and none of them were infected with the pox. It
doesn't spread like wildfire. Even her fry were not infected. I kept a
healthy fry from her to replace her. It will be 2 years old in April and no
pox.

I would like to get out of this without the death of this fish. I've
never really liked its color patterns too much but that's a mean
reason to settle for its euthanization!

Don't worry; the last thing I'll do is release this fish into the wild
or any other body of water for that matter.

--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Troll free pond and fish Forum:
http://www.karlsforums.com/forums/fo...ay.php?fid=104
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(Ų ~~~~ }((((({*





  #12  
Old 14-02-2007, 09:59 PM posted to rec.ponds
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Posts: 514
Default Sick koi and need advice (with pics)



How long a fish lives is irrevelant , and has no bearing on it. A fish
can catch either disease at any age, however its more likely to catch
one before the other at a younger age. One goes away with temps, but
is most likely to reoccur. That fish is totally stressed out as is
easily seen by the read streaks in tail. Since that warty looking mass
of flesh was not there earlier that pretty well leave sout the once
disease, along with the patch or white that refuses to go away,
somehow I am just lead to belive that fish is a total mess and is
doomed.... Your right, it needs to be quarantined, and not dumped in
someone else pond to get it out of sight.

Do a search on both deseases, for your self without any intervention
by opposed parties here on the usenet groups. If you come up with more
questions ask. As no one wants to loose a fish either, it is not hard
to get into a no win situation with not really knowing what is wrong
with the fish, and two, not having professionals around to diagnose it
properly and that entails a patholgy type test, not a simple visual
look see in a picture. Then comes expense to cure if its possible to
cure the problem and a means to do it. Is it really worth while to QT
a fish long term or is it better overall to bite the bullet and
euthanize. As good as your images are, its hard to say one way or the
other and any one reallay saying its this or that for sure is
guessing. Not the wisest choice of info to take. I threw a post on a
wellknown koi forum, not wanting to have a simple or easy diagnosis
go unchecked if there is such a thing, and as much as I do not want to
take away potential posters from this group I am looking at the ebst
interests for your fish overall. In anothe rpost I will make entitled
Consensus of sick Koi, you can read what replies have been made and
make your own decison, but just remember, only 100% real way to know
is a pathological test for the type of virus....no wild a$$ guess is
effective and its a shot in the dark. If you choose that decision or
advice is yoiur option, and no one is gonna find fault wityh you for
doing what you think is right, wellthat is except forone person here
who advises to toss it ina farm pond.
Let me gopy paste the replies and make that post and then you can see
yet more opinions some of which are made by professionals in the world
of KOI.

Regards

On 14 Feb 2007 11:17:56 -0800, "scs0" wrote:

From what I've gathered my koi's problem may be:

Carp pox (aka Lymphocystis)
Or
Koi herpes


I'm unclear on whether or not Carp Pox and Koi Herpes are different
diseases or just the same name for the same thing.

I don't want to kill the fish, but it certainly sounds like I should
isolate this one. That's a bit of a pain considering the size these
fish are getting to, but one thing I learned is that these bigger fish
are much lazier and easier to catch than the impossible-to-catch
younger ones. I definitely don't want to contact the Department of
Agriculture. Government and environmental issues are a scary thing to
mix and I've heard the horror stories. I'd probably end up with 100
euthanized koi and a demolished pond. I'll be lucky if they don't
find a way to condemn my property altogether!


I would like to get out of this without the death of this fish. I've
never really liked its color patterns too much but that's a mean
reason to settle for its euthanization!

Don't worry; the last thing I'll do is release this fish into the wild
or any other body of water for that matter.



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!
  #13  
Old 14-02-2007, 10:04 PM posted to rec.ponds
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 514
Default Sick koi and need advice (with pics)



Totally assinine information given by an obnoxious individual that
thinks they know all but really knows very little. This person is
notorious for passing out erroneous info and any info given by her
should not be trusted to even be inline with what was asked or
relavant to the situation. In most folks opinions its better to do
without informaiton by this person than to chance usuing any of it.

On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:20:12 -0600, ZŽbulon
wrote:


"scs0" wrote in message
legroups.com...
From what I've gathered my koi's problem may be:

Carp pox (aka Lymphocystis)

Since it's lived so long it's probably pox. You can also check
www.koivet.com for more information on koi diseases.

Or
Koi herpes


I'm unclear on whether or not Carp Pox and Koi Herpes are different
diseases or just the same name for the same thing.

I don't want to kill the fish, but it certainly sounds like I should
isolate this one.

That's what I did with mine because of her beauty, but the pox always came
back. I finally decided she had to go.


Yea put the fish insoomeone elses pond and let them catch the
aftereffects...Really nice compasionate and reliable individual is
what yu are CArol....I assume its safe to say you would push your ownn
mother out ino the streets if she became a leper so you would not
have to deal with it. Your a real gem carol one of a kind!

That's a bit of a pain considering the size these
fish are getting to, but one thing I learned is that these bigger fish
are much lazier and easier to catch than the impossible-to-catch
younger ones. I definitely don't want to contact the Department of
Agriculture. Government and environmental issues are a scary thing to
mix and I've heard the horror stories. I'd probably end up with 100
euthanized koi and a demolished pond. I'll be lucky if they don't
find a way to condemn my property altogether!

Then separate the fish until you decide what to do with it. My fish was with
the others for months and none of them were infected with the pox. It
doesn't spread like wildfire. Even her fry were not infected. I kept a
healthy fry from her to replace her. It will be 2 years old in April and no
pox.

I would like to get out of this without the death of this fish. I've
never really liked its color patterns too much but that's a mean
reason to settle for its euthanization!

Don't worry; the last thing I'll do is release this fish into the wild
or any other body of water for that matter.



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!
  #14  
Old 14-02-2007, 10:24 PM posted to rec.ponds
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15
Default Sick koi and need advice (with pics)


"ZŽbulon"

The dumping of Koi and Goldfish is illegal over here even if they are
healthy....


That doesn't not apply to where I or the person who recommended the
illegal killing of protected birds live - the USA.




Releasing (dumping) non native fish in the U.S . is most certainly illegal
and punishable by a hefty fine.
Knowingly releasing diseased fish is a criminal act punishable by a fine
plus possible jail time.
Ecosystems have been devastated by the introduction of non-native species
and diseases to which native species have have no immunity.


  #15  
Old 14-02-2007, 10:34 PM posted to rec.ponds
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 514
Default Consensus of Sick Koi was ---- Sick koi and need advice (with pics)

Here is the copy pastes of opinions and advice of some others in a
well run troll free forum that has lots of professional koi health
practitioners known in the world of KOI.....Names of posters have been
X'd out but they are professionals and not quacks. I am not saying
that there is not folks in the rec.p[onds group that are not capable,
but right now participation due to trolls and folks like carol Gulley
aka Zebulon makes conducting anything almost impossible to help people
out. Best of luck to you.
==================================

The tail looks like koi pox and the fish is very stressed as you can
see from the red streaks in the tail.

The second pic isn't clear. It could have a thicker slime coat causing
the whitish film. Have they been tested for parasites?

What's the water temp and pH and are they stable?


xxxxxx
Advanced Member


Group: Moderator
Posts: 2,287
Joined: 2-June 06
From: Eastern (Thumb) Panhandle of Wild Wonderful West Virginia
Member No.: 28



Hmmm. I don't know xxxxx....that lesion on the tail sure looks more
like a tumor or lymphocystis. See the texutre of it and the color? Pox
is usually just opaque and flatter. Seems to be more of this thing
going on......viral....and hard to "cure".
What kind of water temperature is this fish kept in? Pox will clear in
warmer water usually.
Most specimens(not all) I have seen with this flat wide whitened
(viral poxy type) area have not been kept in good water.
If it is not getting smaller (especially if they live in an area where
the temperature changes with the seasons) but bigger, I would expect
lymphocystis or cancer.

This post has been edited byxxxx: Yesterday, 11:49 PM
===================================

xxxxxxx
Advanced Member


Group: Super Moderator
Posts: 4,355
Joined: 2-June 06
From: Lugoff, SC
Member No.: 21

I have to agree with xxx.....the tail looks like a cancerous growth
to me.


xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Advanced Member
Group: Moderator
Posts: 527
Joined: 4-June 06
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia
Member No.: 95



I also agree with xxxxx and xxxxx, that the taol looks like a
tumorous growth.

From the very few cases I've seen of on freshwater fish and the
numerous ones that I've seen on sal****er fish ....Lymphocystis
usually just forms a whitish cauliflower like growth, with out the red
inflammation.

The dorsal spot is probably pox but but it reminds me of Hikui, but
that usually just shows up on beni, so I'm not sure what it is\


xxxx


xxxxxxxxx
Advanced Member
Group: Super Moderator
Posts: 4,972
Joined: 2-June 06
From: Covington, Louisiana
Member No.: 14
================================


Maybe I had wrong advice with my fish. Years ago, I had a fish with a
lesion that looked just like that only at the joint of the pec fin. It
as also red. I was told it was koi pox and it would come and go with
temp changes. I could never figure out why the lump never went away.
Sorry for the wrong advice.


xxxxxxxxx


Advanced Member
Group: Moderator
Posts: 527
Joined: 4-June 06
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia
Member No.: 95



xxxxx, not all that wrong............ if you look at the edge of the
fin those growths are pox..............overall this fish has problems

xx

========================================
xxxxxxxx



Advanced Member
Group: Super Moderator
Posts: 4,972
Joined: 2-June 06
From: Covington, Louisiana
Member No.: 14



Thanks, xxx

So the main difference in telling a tumor from pox is the red veining?
Does location have anything to do with it?


xxxxxxxxxxx
===============================================



Advanced Member






xxxxx

Advanced Member


Group: Moderator
Posts: 527
Joined: 4-June 06
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia
Member No.: 95



QUOTE(xxxxxx @ Feb 14 2007, 09:56 AM)
Thanks,xxxxxxxxxx

So the main difference in telling a tumor from pox is the red veining?
Does location have anything to do with it?



1st off unless a path lab did some testing, we're giving opinions
here, not fact........If you look at the fin edge and then the growth
they really do not like alike. The growth has very definate edges and
the growths at the fin edges kind of blend back into the fin. Both
have some veining and inflammation. If you blow the second pic up the
anal fin also has some growth on it...overall this fish is a mess

xxxxxxx
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I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!
 




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