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Settlement Tanks
Is there a sizing algorithm for settlement tanks?
I am planning on a 2000 gallon pond with two bottom drains that will be piped to a settlement tank. Another pipe will connect from the settlement pipe to a pump that will be submerged in my veggie filter. The output of the pump will be in the veggie filter which will flow down to the pain pond. I was thinking of burying one or two 5 gallon buckets for the settlement tanks. Would be cheap and easy. Would this be big enough to allow for some SOME settling before the pipes dump into the filter? My intent is to have the sediment dropped into/used by the veggie filter, but I don't want to connect the drains directly to my pump for fear of clogging. -- BenignVanilla tibetanbeefgarden.com x-no-archive: yes Remove MY SPLEEN to email me. |
#2
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Settlement Tanks
"BenignVanilla" wrote:
Is there a sizing algorithm for settlement tanks? Sure, keep the water in the tank long enough for stuff to settle! To not be smart, it depends on the water flow. I was thinking of burying one or two 5 gallon buckets for the settlement tanks. Would be cheap and easy. If you connect a 30 gpm (1800gph) pump, that would allow less than 10 seconds settling time, which is to say none. Would this be big enough to allow for some SOME settling before the pipes dump into the filter? My intent is to have the sediment dropped into/used by the veggie filter, but I don't want to connect the drains directly to my pump for fear of clogging. Go google and take a look at some of the designs on the web. |
#3
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Settlement Tanks
"John Hines" wrote in message
... "BenignVanilla" wrote: snip If you connect a 30 gpm (1800gph) pump, that would allow less than 10 seconds settling time, which is to say none. snip Thanks for the follow up. Makes sense. I'll go back to the drawing board. BV. |
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Settlement Tanks
"John Hines" wrote in message
... "BenignVanilla" wrote: Is there a sizing algorithm for settlement tanks? Sure, keep the water in the tank long enough for stuff to settle! *laugh* OK, so what's that time period? snip If you connect a 30 gpm (1800gph) pump, that would allow less than 10 seconds settling time, which is to say none. snip I did some quick math, assuming a 2000 gallon pond, and an 1800GPH pump. It would take the pump 67 minutes to circulate the water in the pond. With a 200 gallon settlement tank, the water would have only 7 minutes to settle in the tank. I realize this does not take into consideration of the volume in the pipes. I am just trying to get close here. So is 7 minutes enough? I am guessing not. A 500 gallon settlement tank would provide about 17 minutes of settle time. Still seems a bit low. The reason I ask is that, it seems like a lot of work and doing to get a settlement tank going. Since I plan to have a shallow veggie filter, cleaning it should not be a big deal. I am wondering if I should just forget the settlement tank, and let the sediment come into the veggie filter, which could easily be drained, cleaned and refilled. BV. Go google and take a look at some of the designs on the web. |
#5
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Settlement Tanks
BenignVanilla wrote:
"John Hines" wrote in message ... "BenignVanilla" wrote: Is there a sizing algorithm for settlement tanks? Sure, keep the water in the tank long enough for stuff to settle! *laugh* OK, so what's that time period? snip If you connect a 30 gpm (1800gph) pump, that would allow less than 10 seconds settling time, which is to say none. snip I did some quick math, assuming a 2000 gallon pond, and an 1800GPH pump. It would take the pump 67 minutes to circulate the water in the pond. With a 200 gallon settlement tank, the water would have only 7 minutes to settle in the tank. I realize this does not take into consideration of the volume in the pipes. I am just trying to get close here. So is 7 minutes enough? I am guessing not. A 500 gallon settlement tank would provide about 17 minutes of settle time. Still seems a bit low. The reason I ask is that, it seems like a lot of work and doing to get a settlement tank going. Since I plan to have a shallow veggie filter, cleaning it should not be a big deal. I am wondering if I should just forget the settlement tank, and let the sediment come into the veggie filter, which could easily be drained, cleaned and refilled. BV. When I built my first veggie filter it was suggested that the turnover rate be once every four hours, so that it would have enough time for the plants to absorb the nutrients. The argument ensued here on rec.ponds - whether time in the filter or amount of water passing through the filter where more important. It was never really settled - as usual we each came to our own conclusion because our ponds are all different. To slow down the waters passage through the settling tank several of us have added window screening. This works great in allowing the muck to settle and the window screening is very easily cleaned with a hose. -- Bonnie NJ |
#6
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Settlement Tanks
"Bonnie Espenshade" wrote in message
... BenignVanilla wrote: snip I did some quick math, assuming a 2000 gallon pond, and an 1800GPH pump. It would take the pump 67 minutes to circulate the water in the pond. With a 200 gallon settlement tank, the water would have only 7 minutes to settle in the tank. I realize this does not take into consideration of the volume in the pipes. I am just trying to get close here. So is 7 minutes enough? I am guessing not. A 500 gallon settlement tank would provide about 17 minutes of settle time. Still seems a bit low. snip When I built my first veggie filter it was suggested that the turnover rate be once every four hours, so that it would have enough time for the plants to absorb the nutrients. The argument ensued here on rec.ponds - whether time in the filter or amount of water passing through the filter where more important. It was never really settled - as usual we each came to our own conclusion because our ponds are all different. I can see both sides of each argument. And I could probably find myself agreeing with both, so I will do my best to not bring it back to life. *laugh* BUT...BUT...How can I translate this to a settlement tank? Surely, the flow of the water will be a factor. If I have a 3000 gallon pond, I am going to have a 300 gallon veggie filter...do I also want another 500 gallons just for sediment drop out? I thinking more and more that I do not. I am seriously considering a couple of 5 gallons buckets that I can use to screen large particales out to protect the pump. The window screening other such material makes sense. It would be easy to dig a small hole for these, and they could easily be disconnected, lifted out, cleaned and put back. They would not contain much volume but the two chambers should aid in larger particles not going directly into the pump itself, I would think. To slow down the waters passage through the settling tank several of us have added window screening. This works great in allowing the muck to settle and the window screening is very easily cleaned with a hose. *sigh* So I am going to have a mechanical and a veggie filter. *sigh* BV. |
#7
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Settlement Tanks
"BenignVanilla" wrote:
"John Hines" wrote in message .. . "BenignVanilla" wrote: Is there a sizing algorithm for settlement tanks? Sure, keep the water in the tank long enough for stuff to settle! *laugh* OK, so what's that time period? snip It isn't hard, get a clear glass tumbler out of the kitchen, fill it with pond water, shake up, and see how long it takes for the stuff to settle out to the bottom. To sum it up, it takes a while, so the settling rate is how much (%) settles out per minute. If you connect a 30 gpm (1800gph) pump, that would allow less than 10 seconds settling time, which is to say none. snip I did some quick math, assuming a 2000 gallon pond, and an 1800GPH pump. It would take the pump 67 minutes to circulate the water in the pond. With a 200 gallon settlement tank, the water would have only 7 minutes to settle in the tank. I realize this does not take into consideration of the volume in the pipes. I am just trying to get close here. So is 7 minutes enough? I am guessing not. A 500 gallon settlement tank would provide about 17 minutes of settle time. Still seems a bit low. That will work. Try my test in the first point., a few minutes will allow a great percentage of stuff to settle out. The idea of the settlement tank is to get the big stuff out. The reason I ask is that, it seems like a lot of work and doing to get a settlement tank going. Since I plan to have a shallow veggie filter, cleaning it should not be a big deal. I am wondering if I should just forget the settlement tank, and let the sediment come into the veggie filter, which could easily be drained, cleaned and refilled. Filtering needs to be done in stages, first you screen out the fish, then the largest items, then the smaller items, and so on. A settling tank is for the larger, coarser, heavier items, a prefilter to a finer filter, like the veggie filter. |
#8
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Settlement Tanks
I disagree that we need additional filtering, John.
Let the veggie filter do its work. If you must, place a screen in the veggie filter. Nedra http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836 http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118 "John Hines" wrote in message ... "BenignVanilla" wrote: "John Hines" wrote in message .. . "BenignVanilla" wrote: Is there a sizing algorithm for settlement tanks? Sure, keep the water in the tank long enough for stuff to settle! *laugh* OK, so what's that time period? snip It isn't hard, get a clear glass tumbler out of the kitchen, fill it with pond water, shake up, and see how long it takes for the stuff to settle out to the bottom. To sum it up, it takes a while, so the settling rate is how much (%) settles out per minute. If you connect a 30 gpm (1800gph) pump, that would allow less than 10 seconds settling time, which is to say none. snip I did some quick math, assuming a 2000 gallon pond, and an 1800GPH pump. It would take the pump 67 minutes to circulate the water in the pond. With a 200 gallon settlement tank, the water would have only 7 minutes to settle in the tank. I realize this does not take into consideration of the volume in the pipes. I am just trying to get close here. So is 7 minutes enough? I am guessing not. A 500 gallon settlement tank would provide about 17 minutes of settle time. Still seems a bit low. That will work. Try my test in the first point., a few minutes will allow a great percentage of stuff to settle out. The idea of the settlement tank is to get the big stuff out. The reason I ask is that, it seems like a lot of work and doing to get a settlement tank going. Since I plan to have a shallow veggie filter, cleaning it should not be a big deal. I am wondering if I should just forget the settlement tank, and let the sediment come into the veggie filter, which could easily be drained, cleaned and refilled. Filtering needs to be done in stages, first you screen out the fish, then the largest items, then the smaller items, and so on. A settling tank is for the larger, coarser, heavier items, a prefilter to a finer filter, like the veggie filter. |
#9
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Settlement Tanks
"John Hines" wrote in message
... snip It isn't hard, get a clear glass tumbler out of the kitchen, fill it with pond water, shake up, and see how long it takes for the stuff to settle out to the bottom. snip A good idea if my pond existed anywhere but on and paper and in that muddy hole I started digging in October. *laugh* I was hoping to design and build this, and have it part of the pond from day one. I wonder if I could do a test using some muddy water from the hole? Clearly it is much dirtier now then the pond will ever get. I wonder if that would give a valid barometer of anything? I realize that I have a mind block on a true settlement tank, so I am going to beat that to death before I give in. I don't want to have nine or ten 55 gallons barrels in my yard. I don't want to dig holes to bury them. And I don't want another 500 gallon pond (well maybe not). Ok, so here are my current ideas... One...A large rubbermaid the 30-40 gallon sized, sunk into the ground. Easy to dig, easy to lift out if necessary. A second smaller rubbermaid 5-10 gallons. I cut out the sides of the smaller rubbermaid and cover it with screen material. The pump goes in and the lid goes on. This gets sunk in the larger rubbermaid, maybe sitting up on a cinderblock to keep it near the top of the larger rubbermaid. Water is pump out of the smaller rubbermaid, which pulls water into the larger rubbermaid. Does anyone think this could work? If I am not concerned with a true settlement tank and just want to keep the large particles from my pump, I figured this small and simple setup could provide the needed slow down. Second idea. Two five gallon buckets. Again, sunk in the ground. Pump sits in one. The other is fed from the bottom. Screening is placed in the top of the first and the water flows out a pipe in the top of the first bucket and down into the bottom of the second bucket. Again, just enough to keep large particles out of the pump. The pump raised off the bottom of the second bucket then pumps to the veggie filter. Again...easy to dig...easy to lift and clean. To sum it up, it takes a while, so the settling rate is how much (%) settles out per minute. Zactly. If only I could know this from a book. snip That will work. Try my test in the first point., a few minutes will allow a great percentage of stuff to settle out. The idea of the settlement tank is to get the big stuff out. snip Right! So I wonder if a multi chamber unit, that is small in size (a la, my original 4-5 five gallon bucket idea) but has numerous fallout chambers would provide the needed large particle drop out, purely based on the large particles being less likely to survive an up and down churning of water. Filtering needs to be done in stages, first you screen out the fish, then the largest items, then the smaller items, and so on. I like that run down. *laugh* A settling tank is for the larger, coarser, heavier items, a prefilter to a finer filter, like the veggie filter. I plan to keep my veggie fliter to a shallow foot or so in depth. So again, I wonder if I even need a settlement tank. I wouldn't mind having to clean a 1 foot deep pond out every now and then. I would think it would be fairly easy. BV. |
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Settlement Tanks
"BenignVanilla" wrote:
To sum it up, it takes a while, so the settling rate is how much (%) settles out per minute. Zactly. If only I could know this from a book. Or work the other way, and setup your chamber to give as much settling time as possible. Again, it is a balance of flow, vs settling time. But yes, get a glass of muddy water, and give it try. You'll learn something in the process. Filtering needs to be done in stages, first you screen out the fish, then the largest items, then the smaller items, and so on. I like that run down. *laugh* There are various pieces to it. You can use different pieces, or methods for each one, or combine them. Yes, your veggie filter will work as a settling tank as well, if the water sits in it for a while, which it should do. The particles also get caught in the roots and such (like a mechanical filter). |
#11
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Settlement Tanks
The shape of the setting tank makes a big diff too. Think about how much
further solids have to drop in a tall narrow tank then in a shallow one. Maybe you should look into another method of getting the coarse crap out. Either brushes or maybe a vortex screen sort of device. Seen a DIY but do not recall the URL. Maybe someone else has it bookmarked. Howard "BenignVanilla" wrote in message ... "John Hines" wrote in message ... "BenignVanilla" wrote: Is there a sizing algorithm for settlement tanks? Sure, keep the water in the tank long enough for stuff to settle! *laugh* OK, so what's that time period? snip If you connect a 30 gpm (1800gph) pump, that would allow less than 10 seconds settling time, which is to say none. snip I did some quick math, assuming a 2000 gallon pond, and an 1800GPH pump. It would take the pump 67 minutes to circulate the water in the pond. With a 200 gallon settlement tank, the water would have only 7 minutes to settle in the tank. I realize this does not take into consideration of the volume in the pipes. I am just trying to get close here. So is 7 minutes enough? I am guessing not. A 500 gallon settlement tank would provide about 17 minutes of settle time. Still seems a bit low. The reason I ask is that, it seems like a lot of work and doing to get a settlement tank going. Since I plan to have a shallow veggie filter, cleaning it should not be a big deal. I am wondering if I should just forget the settlement tank, and let the sediment come into the veggie filter, which could easily be drained, cleaned and refilled. BV. Go google and take a look at some of the designs on the web. |
#12
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Settlement Tanks
"MLF" wrote in message
... "BenignVanilla" wrote: I did some quick math, assuming a 2000 gallon pond, and an 1800GPH pump. It would take the pump 67 minutes to circulate the water in the pond. With a 200 gallon settlement tank, the water would have only 7 minutes to settle in the tank...So is 7 minutes enough? I am guessing not. You're right. The other person who suggested that you put some material in a glass of water, shake it up and see how long it takes to settle out is not right either. Unlike your settling tank, the water in the glass is not moving. The only way to get it to settle is to let it sit - a loooooong time. Only the largest particles will settle in 7 minutes and then only if the water is still enough (settling time in still water is a function of the size of the particles and time). I figured the motion of the water would have a dramatic effect. snip You're right. Go with the veggie filter. With proper inlet construction and design you won't suck up much that will harm your filter. So what is proper inlet construction? Seems all of the professional inlets seem to be upside bowl shaped. Still learning what that is all about. BTW: I have worked in municipal sewage and fresh water treatment plants for some years. They use a process called "flocculation" to remove suspended solids. Basically, this consists of introducing a material into the water that collects on the particles, makes them clump together, and then they are filtered or settled out. Very effective and non-toxic. (Imagine putting a little powdered jello in a bucket of muddy water - the gelatin would collect on the particles and you could filter the solids out with a fine mesh cloth.) Will Wild Cherry Jello work? That's my favorite. I supposed I should leave the vodka out though eh? BV. |
#13
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Settlement Tanks
BV, I can't tell if your for real or not? Jokes
are fine ... but Gee ... oh well. For the Veggie Filter: The Veggie Filter is fed by a hose - one end of whichis attached to a pump that sits near the bottom - NOT on the bottom - just near the bottom of your pond. The hose goes across the bottom of the pond, up the far side and into the VF. I attached a manifold to the hose that goes into the VF. The manifold has holes drilled all over it. This slows down the water - allows for "dwell time" all over the VF. The exit is a cut out, usually about 6 inches deep and 8 or 9 inches wide. Depends on the size of your pump. HTH Nedra http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836 http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118 "BenignVanilla" wrote in message ... "MLF" wrote in message ... "BenignVanilla" wrote: I did some quick math, assuming a 2000 gallon pond, and an 1800GPH pump. It would take the pump 67 minutes to circulate the water in the pond. With a 200 gallon settlement tank, the water would have only 7 minutes to settle in the tank...So is 7 minutes enough? I am guessing not. You're right. The other person who suggested that you put some material in a glass of water, shake it up and see how long it takes to settle out is not right either. Unlike your settling tank, the water in the glass is not moving. The only way to get it to settle is to let it sit - a loooooong time. Only the largest particles will settle in 7 minutes and then only if the water is still enough (settling time in still water is a function of the size of the particles and time). I figured the motion of the water would have a dramatic effect. snip You're right. Go with the veggie filter. With proper inlet construction and design you won't suck up much that will harm your filter. So what is proper inlet construction? Seems all of the professional inlets seem to be upside bowl shaped. Still learning what that is all about. BTW: I have worked in municipal sewage and fresh water treatment plants for some years. They use a process called "flocculation" to remove suspended solids. Basically, this consists of introducing a material into the water that collects on the particles, makes them clump together, and then they are filtered or settled out. Very effective and non-toxic. (Imagine putting a little powdered jello in a bucket of muddy water - the gelatin would collect on the particles and you could filter the solids out with a fine mesh cloth.) Will Wild Cherry Jello work? That's my favorite. I supposed I should leave the vodka out though eh? BV. |
#14
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Settlement Tanks
"Howard" (remove XYZ) wrote in message
... The shape of the setting tank makes a big diff too. Think about how much further solids have to drop in a tall narrow tank then in a shallow one. Maybe you should look into another method of getting the coarse crap out. Either brushes or maybe a vortex screen sort of device. Seen a DIY but do not recall the URL. Maybe someone else has it bookmarked. I am mostly concerned with keeping large particles out of my pump. If little stuff makes it to the veggie filter, I won't mind. I posted somewhere that I intend to have a fairly shallow veggie filter, so cleaning it should not be an issue. So maybe the better question I could have asked is, what is the best way to keep the large particles down? I want to have a bury-able solution. I am leaning toward a large rubber made design that will have the pump in one end, and the feed in the other. Both separated by some screening material. BV. |
#15
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Settlement Tanks
"Nedra" wrote in message
hlink.net... BV, I can't tell if your for real or not? Jokes are fine ... but Gee ... oh well. For the Veggie Filter: 5-6 posts of research/questions and math...one joke about jello referencing another posters reference to gelatin, and you don't know if I am for real? Lighten up. Gee whiz. The Veggie Filter is fed by a hose - one end of whichis attached to a pump that sits near the bottom - NOT on the bottom - just near the bottom of your pond. This is key to my problem. Originally I planned to have a pump IN the pond, but now I plan to use a bottom drain, have it empty into my veggie filter. This prevents me from having the pump in the pond because I don't want the pump directly attached to the bottom drain, in order to prevent damage from large debris. This started me on the concept of an intermediate or settlement chamber, which I have found will be too large for my desired area. So I have been playing with many different ideas on how to get a small set of chambers to provide enough fall out time to protect the pump, but not neccessiraly act as a REAL settlement chamber. Someone suggested gelatin being used in some filter systems, not ponds particularly, in order to help get the particles to glom together. Hence my jello joke. The hose goes across the bottom of the pond, up the far side and into the VF. I attached a manifold to the hose that goes into the VF. The manifold has holes drilled all over it. This slows down the water - allows for "dwell time" all over the VF. The exit is a cut out, usually about 6 inches deep and 8 or 9 inches wide. Depends on the size of your pump. Nice idea, but I don't think it will work for me in my design, as I am looking for something to precede my pump. The manifold will probably be a good idea for my VF, but I am still trying to solve my problem of protecting the pump from sucking up a large particle. BV. aka Wild Cherry Jello Lover |
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