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Creating a Pond without using a liner (clay)



 
 
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  #1  
Old 09-05-2005, 06:07 PM
RainLover
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Creating a Pond without using a liner (clay)

I've created a couple of ponds in the past and I'm getting ready to do
my biggest and best yet. The area I would like to put the pond has
two things going for it, as far as creating a natural, clay-lined
pond:

A - The area I'm now in is fairly heavy clay.
B - The water-table in the area where I want to site the pond is very
close to the surface.

My home is on a deep well, but recently I discovered an old,
concrete-lined, hand-dug surface well and am planning on using it for
the auto-fill on the pond... even so, I don't want to be filling the
pond, 12 hours a day to keep it full.


I have a few questions....

1 - How can I be sure the water will STAY PUT in the pond? The only
thing I can think of is to dig it and fill it before I do any
landscaping or detail work and see how it holds water. Is there a
better way?

2 - Will I have to worry about the entire pond being overtaken by
natural plants? How deep should I make it to where most vegetation
won't just move in and take over?

3 - What is the best way to install a pump intake and a drain? If I
dig an extra deep trench, place in the piping, and compact the
dirt/clay around it as I bury it, will that keep the water in? I
don't want to have the water leaking out along the outside of the
plumbing.

4 - Should I simply forget the drain and keep the plumbing for the
pump/waterfall/filter along the bottom surface of the pond?

5 - Are there any good web sites that talk about creating a 'natural'
pond?


This will all be in a Pacific Northwest (usa) meets Japanese Garden
setting when it's done. This pond will have no Koi in it....and
possibly only one or two gold fish.

I'm planning a koi pond near the house, but that's AFTER this one is
done...



THANKS!

James, Seattle (more or less), Zone 8a
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  #2  
Old 09-05-2005, 06:24 PM
Derek Broughton
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

RainLover wrote:

1 - How can I be sure the water will STAY PUT in the pond? The only
thing I can think of is to dig it and fill it before I do any
landscaping or detail work and see how it holds water. Is there a
better way?


I think that's probably the only way you can be _sure_ :-) You can do a
percolation test - dig little holes in the area you're going to put the
pond, and see how long they take to drain, but if they drain fast, it might
just mean you have a porous surface layer, and if they don't drain at all
it could be because you _don't_ have a porous surface layer but you'll be
digging through it to make your pond. In any event, most likely there will
be _some_ drainage - it's a matter of what you think is slow enough (and
remember that if you're pumping out subsurface water, you could eventually
drain your own well).

2 - Will I have to worry about the entire pond being overtaken by
natural plants? How deep should I make it to where most vegetation
won't just move in and take over?


I'm not sure depth will make much difference. Yes, local vegetation will
want to take over.
--
derek
  #3  
Old 09-05-2005, 06:45 PM
~Roy~
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Just how big of a pond do you intend to did? Filters for the most part
in a natural ;ond is pretty fruitless, as its a never ending chore
keeping them free of debri and sediement which will get stirrred up
continually. I have a 1= acre natural pond and the best way to keep
the water looking good is control what and how water runs into it, and
lots of aeration.

Plants can be a problem, but need not be a problem if your wise in
what you plant in regards to whats invasive for your area and gorwing
season. I have all kinds in and around my pond and keep them pretty
well under control except for Parrots feather, which I harvest by the
trailer loads on a wekly basis, but I am slowly getting the upper hand
on it as well. LAst year it was water clover, but I pretty well have
it all but eliminated.............and previously it was water
hyacinths, which I have eradicated for some years now........I also
had some problems with thre yellow and the white water snowflakes, as
they are very invasive, and all it takes is a small piece of them
plants and they start to propagate pretty easy, so just watch what you
plant.

If yur water table is that high you maya anot be able to use a dozer
etc to dig the pond and may have to resort to a backhoe or tracked
excavator hoe, thats what I did as my water table usually remains high
all year around. You can always add sodium bentonite to the soil for
added insurance, but I would have my soil tested by the county agent
and see if it is indeed suitable for a pond and holding water. All
clay is not created equal, and I have one area on my property that
would have made a beautiful pond but it has a yellow tan clay that
washes too easy and is not suitable for ponds. The area I have mine in
now is nothing but blue merle clay which is about as good as it gets
for a natural pond. Its pretty normal to have a bottom drain if you
have a portion of the land that the drain line can be run to thats
below the bottom of the ponds bottom, however every pipe or device you
have running thorugh a natural ;oiknd is an invitation to a future
seep or leak if its not constructed properly.........I only have a
overflow pipe and spillway, and if I need to drain my pond for any
reason I would use my 2 gas powered pumps....185 and 390 gpm pumps. So
far I have never had a need to drain it for any reason in over 20
years though.......

On Mon, 09 May 2005 10:07:48 -0700, RainLover
wrote:

===I've created a couple of ponds in the past and I'm getting ready to do
===my biggest and best yet. The area I would like to put the pond has
===two things going for it, as far as creating a natural, clay-lined
===pond:
===
===A - The area I'm now in is fairly heavy clay.
===B - The water-table in the area where I want to site the pond is very
===close to the surface.
===
===My home is on a deep well, but recently I discovered an old,
===concrete-lined, hand-dug surface well and am planning on using it for
===the auto-fill on the pond... even so, I don't want to be filling the
===pond, 12 hours a day to keep it full.
===
===
===I have a few questions....
===
=== 1 - How can I be sure the water will STAY PUT in the pond? The only
===thing I can think of is to dig it and fill it before I do any
===landscaping or detail work and see how it holds water. Is there a
===better way?
===
===2 - Will I have to worry about the entire pond being overtaken by
===natural plants? How deep should I make it to where most vegetation
===won't just move in and take over?
===
===3 - What is the best way to install a pump intake and a drain? If I
===dig an extra deep trench, place in the piping, and compact the
===dirt/clay around it as I bury it, will that keep the water in? I
===don't want to have the water leaking out along the outside of the
===plumbing.
===
===4 - Should I simply forget the drain and keep the plumbing for the
===pump/waterfall/filter along the bottom surface of the pond?
===
===5 - Are there any good web sites that talk about creating a 'natural'
===pond?
===
===
===This will all be in a Pacific Northwest (usa) meets Japanese Garden
===setting when it's done. This pond will have no Koi in it....and
===possibly only one or two gold fish.
===
===I'm planning a koi pond near the house, but that's AFTER this one is
===done...
===
===
===
===THANKS!
===
===James, Seattle (more or less), Zone 8a



==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!

~~~~ }((((o ~~~~~~ }{{{{o ~~~~~~~ }(((((o
  #4  
Old 09-05-2005, 08:53 PM
axemanchris
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default



You might want to see if you can get a copy of "The Earth Ponds Source
Book" by Tim Matson. It deals with larger ponds.

Jacqui


  #5  
Old 10-05-2005, 02:51 PM
RainLover
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 09 May 2005 14:24:19 -0300, Derek Broughton
wrote:

RainLover wrote:

1 - How can I be sure the water will STAY PUT in the pond? The only
thing I can think of is to dig it and fill it before I do any
landscaping or detail work and see how it holds water. Is there a
better way?


I think that's probably the only way you can be _sure_ :-) You can do a
percolation test - dig little holes in the area you're going to put the
pond, and see how long they take to drain, but if they drain fast, it might
just mean you have a porous surface layer, and if they don't drain at all
it could be because you _don't_ have a porous surface layer but you'll be
digging through it to make your pond. In any event, most likely there will
be _some_ drainage - it's a matter of what you think is slow enough (and
remember that if you're pumping out subsurface water, you could eventually
drain your own well).


Thanks for the perk Idea... I'm not too worried about draining my
well. Everyone is now on deep wells (80 to 120 feet) and I don't
believe surface (hand dug) wells are even allowed any more... and the
two water sources are different... but thanks for the warning anyway.

2 - Will I have to worry about the entire pond being overtaken by
natural plants? How deep should I make it to where most vegetation
won't just move in and take over?


I'm not sure depth will make much difference. Yes, local vegetation will
want to take over.


Hmmm... there's an argument for a liner, eh?

James, Seattle

  #6  
Old 10-05-2005, 03:01 PM
RainLover
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 09 May 2005 17:45:05 GMT, (~Roy~) wrote:


Just how big of a pond do you intend to did? Filters for the most part
in a natural ;ond is pretty fruitless, as its a never ending chore
keeping them free of debri and sediement which will get stirrred up
continually. I have a 1= acre natural pond and the best way to keep
the water looking good is control what and how water runs into it, and
lots of aeration.


I'm impressed... A 1 acre pond??? Mine will 'only' be about 30' x
40' or so. I'm planning a waterfall, so there will be aeration.



Plants can be a problem, but need not be a problem if your wise in
what you plant in regards to whats invasive for your area and gorwing
season. I have all kinds in and around my pond and keep them pretty
well under control except for Parrots feather, which I harvest by the
trailer loads on a wekly basis, but I am slowly getting the upper hand
on it as well. LAst year it was water clover, but I pretty well have
it all but eliminated.............and previously it was water
hyacinths, which I have eradicated for some years now........I also
had some problems with thre yellow and the white water snowflakes, as
they are very invasive, and all it takes is a small piece of them
plants and they start to propagate pretty easy, so just watch what you
plant.


What area of the country (world?) are you IN??? Here in the Seattle
area, we don't have TOO many super-invasive plants, although
parrotfeather has been Banned for anyone to sell, and water hyacinths
are considered desireable, even though ponders usually have to buy NEW
plants every spring.


If yur water table is that high you maya anot be able to use a dozer
etc to dig the pond and may have to resort to a backhoe or tracked
excavator hoe, thats what I did as my water table usually remains high
all year around.


I already thought I'd have to use an excavator to dig it... I'll
probably have to design and landscape the entire waterfall area BEFORE
i dig the pond just so I can get in with my truck or machine to do
it...

You can always add sodium bentonite to the soil for
added insurance, but I would have my soil tested by the county agent
and see if it is indeed suitable for a pond and holding water.


Hm. I will have to check on my TYPE of clay. I believe it's more of
the yellow tan than anything blue. I do know this entire area used to
be mined for clay in order to build bricks. I knew there was a
'surface dressing' clay I could use, but forgot the name--
Bentonite... thanks.

-All
clay is not created equal, and I have one area on my property that
would have made a beautiful pond but it has a yellow tan clay that
washes too easy and is not suitable for ponds. The area I have mine in
now is nothing but blue merle clay which is about as good as it gets
for a natural pond. Its pretty normal to have a bottom drain if you
have a portion of the land that the drain line can be run to thats
below the bottom of the ponds bottom, however every pipe or device you
have running thorugh a natural ;oiknd is an invitation to a future
seep or leak if its not constructed properly.........I only have a
overflow pipe and spillway, and if I need to drain my pond for any
reason I would use my 2 gas powered pumps....185 and 390 gpm pumps. So
far I have never had a need to drain it for any reason in over 20
years though.......


I like the idea. I have a lower area i was going to drain too, but I
think I'll simply leave out the drain and either use my waterfall pump
(with an extra wye valve for drain-mode) or get an auxilery pump as
you have.


Thanks for all your suggestions.

james, Seattle




On Mon, 09 May 2005 10:07:48 -0700, RainLover
wrote:

===I've created a couple of ponds in the past and I'm getting ready to do
===my biggest and best yet. The area I would like to put the pond has
===two things going for it, as far as creating a natural, clay-lined
===pond:
===
===A - The area I'm now in is fairly heavy clay.
===B - The water-table in the area where I want to site the pond is very
===close to the surface.
===
===My home is on a deep well, but recently I discovered an old,
===concrete-lined, hand-dug surface well and am planning on using it for
===the auto-fill on the pond... even so, I don't want to be filling the
===pond, 12 hours a day to keep it full.
===
===
===I have a few questions....
===
=== 1 - How can I be sure the water will STAY PUT in the pond? The only
===thing I can think of is to dig it and fill it before I do any
===landscaping or detail work and see how it holds water. Is there a
===better way?
===
===2 - Will I have to worry about the entire pond being overtaken by
===natural plants? How deep should I make it to where most vegetation
===won't just move in and take over?
===
===3 - What is the best way to install a pump intake and a drain? If I
===dig an extra deep trench, place in the piping, and compact the
===dirt/clay around it as I bury it, will that keep the water in? I
===don't want to have the water leaking out along the outside of the
===plumbing.
===
===4 - Should I simply forget the drain and keep the plumbing for the
===pump/waterfall/filter along the bottom surface of the pond?
===
===5 - Are there any good web sites that talk about creating a 'natural'
===pond?
===
===
===This will all be in a Pacific Northwest (usa) meets Japanese Garden
===setting when it's done. This pond will have no Koi in it....and
===possibly only one or two gold fish.
===
===I'm planning a koi pond near the house, but that's AFTER this one is
===done...
===
===
===
===THANKS!
===
===James, Seattle (more or less), Zone 8a



==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!

~~~~ }((((o ~~~~~~ }{{{{o ~~~~~~~ }(((((o


  #7  
Old 10-05-2005, 03:01 PM
RainLover
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 9 May 2005 15:53:01 -0400, "axemanchris"
wrote:



You might want to see if you can get a copy of "The Earth Ponds Source
Book" by Tim Matson. It deals with larger ponds.

Jacqui


THANKS! I'll check out the local library...

James, Seattle
  #8  
Old 10-05-2005, 04:11 PM
~ jan JJsPond.us
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

You might want to see if you can get a copy of "The Earth Ponds Source
Book" by Tim Matson. It deals with larger ponds.


THANKS! I'll check out the local library...

James, Seattle


You might want to check www.akca.org and get some phone numbers/E-addresses
of pond clubs in your area. There are a bunch, nice folks, who could help
you out with ideas. Keep in mind that a mud pond + koi will always be
murky. ~ jan


See my ponds and filter design:
www.jjspond.us

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website
 




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