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koi ulcer question



 
 
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  #1  
Old 15-06-2005, 06:57 AM
*muffin*
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default koi ulcer question

due to 'stupidity' on my part, I have 2 8" koi that have an ulcer on their
side, due to injury ( believe me , I could NOT believe what I almost did to
my fish...... don't ask).

anyway, I have been treating the pond with melafix,, have lymnozyme in it, &
adding koi clay. its been a week, & the ulcers do not look much better. I do
NOT feel like putting in another $40. worth of meds after this round is
complete in a few days.(for koi that are worth $20. a piece.. they used up
their cost replacement already)

is there any chance they will eventually heal on their own??


don't suggest a smaller quarantine tank, as that was part of my original
problem.......


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  #2  
Old 15-06-2005, 01:07 PM
~Roy~
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

NOt to sound harsh, but thats what happens when you treat fish with
snake oil which is what Mela and Pima fix is......SNAKE
OIL............Get rid of the snake oil, do as large a water change as
you feel comfortable doing, and then dose them in potassium
permanganate........at whatever dose you need. The dose rate is
typically 2ppm, but since you have a lot of "junk" in the water from
that mela fix, it will probably need more just to overcome and fully
oxidize that crap before it gets to working on what the problem
really was..........Do a demand test to find out how much PP your
gonna need for the ppm required.....Its all laid out on the university
of floridas website.

If the fish are eating I would recomendgetting some medicated feed.

After the PP treatment which you may have to do 2 x back to back
preferably, keep feeding the medicated feeds. In the interim until you
find PP you can net these fish, and swab the area with hydrogen
peroxide, and then apply iodine or neosporin or panalog antibiotic
cream, which you can keep on the fish if you apply some denture
adhesive goop over the treated ulcer.....

PP is cheap and iodine peroxide and antibiotic ointments / creams are
usually found in most everyones house.......Biggest expense would be
antibiotic medicated feed, which IMHO is cheep if the fish mean
anyhting to you........

Don;t add salt, clay or anyhting else until the PP has had a chance to
oxidize and clean uyp these fishes ulcers, and really by them no
additonal treatment except for water changes, and medicated feeds
should be necessary. Normally it takes 7 to 10 days on medicated
feeds or water soluable antibiotic treated water for the treatment to
be effective..........Triple sulpha available at most petshops should
be fine.......


http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/

Specifically papers
Fact Sheets
FA-23.....The Use of Potassium Permanganate in Fish Ponds
FA-29.....Introduction to Viral Diseases of Fish
FA-37.....Use of Potassium Permangante to Control Infections of
Ornamental Fish

Other good papers a
Circular..CIR920, ..Ich infections in fish
Circular..CIR921, ..Introduction to Fish Health Management

Southern Regional Aquaculture Center Pubs:
SRAC Pub 475 ..Proliferative Gill Disease
SRAC Pub 7201 ..Species Profile Koi & Goldfish
SRAC Pub 479 ..Columnaris Disease

University of Florida Fact Sheets:
Fact Sheet VM-142 Spring Viremia of Carp
Fact Sheet VM-97 Fungal Diseases of Fish


On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 01:57:57 -0400, "*muffin*"
wrote:

===due to 'stupidity' on my part, I have 2 8" koi that have an ulcer on their
===side, due to injury ( believe me , I could NOT believe what I almost did to
===my fish...... don't ask).
===
===anyway, I have been treating the pond with melafix,, have lymnozyme in it, &
===adding koi clay. its been a week, & the ulcers do not look much better. I do
===NOT feel like putting in another $40. worth of meds after this round is
===complete in a few days.(for koi that are worth $20. a piece.. they used up
===their cost replacement already)
===
===is there any chance they will eventually heal on their own??
===
===
===don't suggest a smaller quarantine tank, as that was part of my original
===problem.......
===



==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
"The original frugal ponder"
~~~~ }((((o ~~~~~~ }{{{{o ~~~~~~~ }(((((o
  #3  
Old 15-06-2005, 05:03 PM
Reel McKoi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"*muffin*" wrote in message
...
due to 'stupidity' on my part, I have 2 8" koi that have an ulcer on

their
side, due to injury ( believe me , I could NOT believe what I almost did

to
my fish...... don't ask).

anyway, I have been treating the pond with melafix,, have lymnozyme in it,

&
adding koi clay. its been a week, & the ulcers do not look much better. I

do
NOT feel like putting in another $40. worth of meds after this round is
complete in a few days.(for koi that are worth $20. a piece.. they used up
their cost replacement already)

is there any chance they will eventually heal on their own??


don't suggest a smaller quarantine tank, as that was part of my original
problem.......

==============================
Once I started using Lymnozyme not one koi ever developed an ulcer, even
after spawning when some injured themselves. One had a nasty injury on his
back this year and it healed in a week. If you can catch them you can
treat the injuries themselves with Methiolate or whatever is recommended
these days.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
Do not feed the trolls.
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

  #4  
Old 15-06-2005, 08:21 PM
*muffin*
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

thanks for the info. (good references to save)

I am familiar with PP, but have always 'read' it is for parasites & other
bacterial infections.

my case is due to injury , which I did not see that PP had any cure for, & i
had read many sites that melafix as great for that.

I also have seen pastes & such for the wound care, but I am not subjecting
them or the rest of the pond fish to a 'fish hunt'
I do have medicated food, but to try to make sure THEY only eat it woudl be
impossible (g).

these 2 koi are the 'mutts' in the bunch, and if they survive, yippeee, ,
but I am not going overboard & spending another $40+ for them.
I was just hoping someone had some experience of their own, that could
sugest!



"~Roy~" wrote in message
...
NOt to sound harsh, but thats what happens when you treat fish with
snake oil which is what Mela and Pima fix is......SNAKE
OIL............Get rid of the snake oil, do as large a water change as
you feel comfortable doing, and then dose them in potassium
permanganate........at whatever dose you need. The dose rate is
typically 2ppm, but since you have a lot of "junk" in the water from
that mela fix, it will probably need more just to overcome and fully
oxidize that crap before it gets to working on what the problem
really was..........Do a demand test to find out how much PP your
gonna need for the ppm required.....Its all laid out on the university
of floridas website.

If the fish are eating I would recomendgetting some medicated feed.

After the PP treatment which you may have to do 2 x back to back
preferably, keep feeding the medicated feeds. In the interim until you
find PP you can net these fish, and swab the area with hydrogen
peroxide, and then apply iodine or neosporin or panalog antibiotic
cream, which you can keep on the fish if you apply some denture
adhesive goop over the treated ulcer.....

PP is cheap and iodine peroxide and antibiotic ointments / creams are
usually found in most everyones house.......Biggest expense would be
antibiotic medicated feed, which IMHO is cheep if the fish mean
anyhting to you........

Don;t add salt, clay or anyhting else until the PP has had a chance to
oxidize and clean uyp these fishes ulcers, and really by them no
additonal treatment except for water changes, and medicated feeds
should be necessary. Normally it takes 7 to 10 days on medicated
feeds or water soluable antibiotic treated water for the treatment to
be effective..........Triple sulpha available at most petshops should
be fine.......


http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/

Specifically papers
Fact Sheets
FA-23.....The Use of Potassium Permanganate in Fish Ponds
FA-29.....Introduction to Viral Diseases of Fish
FA-37.....Use of Potassium Permangante to Control Infections of
Ornamental Fish

Other good papers a
Circular..CIR920, ..Ich infections in fish
Circular..CIR921, ..Introduction to Fish Health Management

Southern Regional Aquaculture Center Pubs:
SRAC Pub 475 ..Proliferative Gill Disease
SRAC Pub 7201 ..Species Profile Koi & Goldfish
SRAC Pub 479 ..Columnaris Disease

University of Florida Fact Sheets:
Fact Sheet VM-142 Spring Viremia of Carp
Fact Sheet VM-97 Fungal Diseases of Fish


On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 01:57:57 -0400, "*muffin*"
wrote:

===due to 'stupidity' on my part, I have 2 8" koi that have an ulcer

on their
===side, due to injury ( believe me , I could NOT believe what I

almost did to
===my fish...... don't ask).
===
===anyway, I have been treating the pond with melafix,, have lymnozyme

in it, &
===adding koi clay. its been a week, & the ulcers do not look much

better. I do
===NOT feel like putting in another $40. worth of meds after this round

is
===complete in a few days.(for koi that are worth $20. a piece.. they

used up
===their cost replacement already)
===
===is there any chance they will eventually heal on their own??
===
===
===don't suggest a smaller quarantine tank, as that was part of my

original
===problem.......
===



==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
"The original frugal ponder"
~~~~ }((((o ~~~~~~ }{{{{o ~~~~~~~ }(((((o



  #5  
Old 15-06-2005, 08:26 PM
*muffin*
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I guess I'll just make sure the lymnozyme is kept up.. I also didn't have
any problems in the past when using the stuff,, but never had to deal with
injuries like this.

so , you are saying they did get better with just the lymnozyme use?

my injuries are a "bunch" of scales & 'meat' scraped off about the size
between a nickle & quarter.


==============================
Once I started using Lymnozyme not one koi ever developed an ulcer, even
after spawning when some injured themselves. One had a nasty injury on

his
back this year and it healed in a week. If you can catch them you can
treat the injuries themselves with Methiolate or whatever is recommended
these days.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...



  #6  
Old 16-06-2005, 12:21 AM
Lovin' Spoonful
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"*muffin*" wrote in message
...
I guess I'll just make sure the lymnozyme is kept up..


## Yes, and keep it in the fridge! It works, but not if you forget to use
it. :-)

I also didn't have
any problems in the past when using the stuff,, but never had to deal with
injuries like this.


## It works even with nasty injuries.

so , you are saying they did get better with just the lymnozyme use?


## YES!!!! But I don't wait for spawning or injuries. I add it as soon as
they become active in the spring.

my injuries are a "bunch" of scales & 'meat' scraped off about the size
between a nickle & quarter.


## If the injury is already infected you may need to treat it once to clean
the dead tissue away etc. But add the Lymozyme as soon as possible. I
have seen some nasty ulcers clear up rapidly when Lymozyme was added to the
pond. No other treatment was given. We had awful problems with ulcers
several years back here in TN. I don't think any ponds were spared.......
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
Do not feed the trolls.
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

  #7  
Old 16-06-2005, 04:10 AM
~ janj JJsPond.us
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:26:12 -0400, "*muffin*" wrote:

so , you are saying they did get better with just the lymnozyme use?


I'll agree with that, assuming the ulcers aren't too deep. What color are
they? If white, that is good healing, equal to a healthy scab on us.

If the ulcers are bad, red, and getting worst, remove and put an end to the
fish as their stress becomes a stress to the rest of the fish. ~ jan


See my ponds and filter design:
www.jjspond.us

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website
  #8  
Old 16-06-2005, 08:23 AM
Greg Cooper
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

You want to keep up the lymozyme on an ongoing basis - as I understand
it it "crowds out" the bad Aeromonas bacteria that would otherwise
infect your fish at any wound site.

I would suggest the addition of salt.
Referring to Erik Johnson DVM "Koi Health and Disease" for ulcers he
recommends 0.33% salt (2.5 lb/100 Gal) dividing the dose in to 3 parts
and adding over three days to avoid stressing the fish and filter. The
salt deters parasites and reduces stress on the fish by reducing the
osmotic pressure on them (their organs have to work to excrete water
from their tissues to maintain the right salt level in their bodies -
salt in the water = less work to maintain them selves).

If possible raise water temperature to 74-76 degrees Helps if you have
a "hospital tank".

Good luck bringing your fish back to health.
I hate to loose a fish no mater how much/little I have paid for them - I
just feel responsible.

Cheers.



*muffin* wrote:

I guess I'll just make sure the lymnozyme is kept up.. I also didn't have
any problems in the past when using the stuff,, but never had to deal with
injuries like this.

so , you are saying they did get better with just the lymnozyme use?

my injuries are a "bunch" of scales & 'meat' scraped off about the size
between a nickle & quarter.

  #9  
Old 16-06-2005, 04:53 PM
Reel Mckoi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Greg Cooper" wrote in message
news:1O9se.71186$tt5.60114@edtnps90...
You want to keep up the lymozyme on an ongoing basis - as I understand
it it "crowds out" the bad Aeromonas bacteria that would otherwise
infect your fish at any wound site.

=======================
And it does this very well. Even if they already have an ulcer - the ulcer
will heal rapidly. At least that's been my experience. We use it a few
times in the spring and keep it refrigerated at all times. The store we get
it from also keeps it cold.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
Do not feed the trolls.
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

  #10  
Old 16-06-2005, 06:25 PM
~Roy~
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Koizyme is the same as Lymnozyme...........and its not designed to
CURE anything.Its merely designed to reduce infectious bateria levels,
giving a fish a hopefull edge in over coming a problem....It will not
cure or wipe out an infection by any means .......Pristine good
quality water in a QT will do the same thing, give your fish an edge
on potential problems.............



==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
"The original frugal ponder"
~~~~ }((((o ~~~~~~ }{{{{o ~~~~~~~ }(((((o
  #11  
Old 16-06-2005, 07:38 PM
Reel Mckoi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"~Roy~" wrote in message
...
Koizyme is the same as Lymnozyme...........and its not designed to
CURE anything.


# No one said it was. Is your reading comprehension as poor as your grammar
and spelling?

Its merely designed to reduce infectious bateria levels,
giving a fish a hopefull edge in over coming a problem....It will not
cure or wipe out an infection by any means .......


# It cured my koi. :-) No more ulcers........

Pristine good
quality water in a QT will do the same thing, give your fish an edge
on potential problems.............


# WOW! Who would have guessed????? :-D
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
Do not feed the trolls.
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

  #12  
Old 17-06-2005, 02:02 AM
*muffin*
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"~ janj JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:26:12 -0400, "*muffin*" wrote:


so , you are saying they did get better with just the lymnozyme use?


I'll agree with that, assuming the ulcers aren't too deep. What color are
they? If white, that is good healing, equal to a healthy scab on us.

If the ulcers are bad, red, and getting worst, remove and put an end to

the
fish as their stress becomes a stress to the rest of the fish. ~ jan



the fish are very active, swimming, eating. the 'wound' on the lemon colored
one, looks reddish/black. the wound on the gold one. looks about the same as
the rest of the fish, only it is 'puffy' with scales missing.

(oh, I'll try to get a picture of them)

~~~~ waves to Jan!


  #13  
Old 17-06-2005, 02:05 AM
*muffin*
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Lovin' Spoonful" wrote in message
...

"*muffin*" wrote in message
...
I guess I'll just make sure the lymnozyme is kept up..


## Yes, and keep it in the fridge! It works, but not if you forget to

use
it. :-)
## YES!!!! But I don't wait for spawning or injuries. I add it as

soon as
they become active in the spring.


yes I have been using the stuff for a few years, but right before I wanted
to put it in this year I found my bottle was frozen.... so had to order a
new one. I was concerned that the box it arrived in, everything was 'warm'
( could have sworn the last order I got had an ice bag in it!)

I do keep it in the fridge, I just hope the 'warmth' of the delivery didn't
screw it up!


  #14  
Old 17-06-2005, 02:10 AM
*muffin*
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Pristine good
quality water in a QT will do the same thing, give your fish an edge
on potential problems.............



oh I agree......

but, as I mentioned, due to problems with the last trip in a tank, I am not
doing this with these fish (even if I could catch them)

I did have *another* indoor tank , about a year ago, that no matter WHAT I
did I could not get the balance correct in the tank, there was always
presence of ammonia in it, even with trying to do the balance thing with a
small fish,, water changes etc. it was a nightmare, I tried asking for
advice on the fish groups, but nothing seemed to help. I guess the tank is
cursed.


  #15  
Old 17-06-2005, 02:42 AM
Reel Mckoi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"*muffin*" wrote in message
...
yes I have been using the stuff for a few years, but right before I wanted
to put it in this year I found my bottle was frozen.... so had to order a
new one. I was concerned that the box it arrived in, everything was 'warm'
( could have sworn the last order I got had an ice bag in it!)


$$ Prime example of why I don't buy some things mail order. I have an
Aquarium store about 20 miles from here that sells Lymnozyme and so I drive
there for it. I take my small cooler and an ice-pack with me. Needless to
say I come straight home from the store and the bottle is still chilled.
:-)

I do keep it in the fridge, I just hope the 'warmth' of the delivery

didn't
screw it up!


$$ I suppose that would depend on how long it was "warmed up" and just how
warm it go........
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
Do not feed the trolls.
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

 




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