We have two 12 year old shrub roses, supposedly "Pink Grootendorst".

One has always produced nothing but pale pink blossoms, but the other
has always had about 1/4 which are much darker, almost red.

Up 'til now I simply assumed that the grafter (these things are built
out of grafts, aren't they?) had picked up a few pieces from the
wrong pile when he built that plant, but this year I'm starting to
see a number of true bi-color blossoms, part pale pink, part dark.
Some are perfectly symmetrical, with the "north & south" quadrants
one color and the "east & west" the other.

What's up with that?

--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN |

Bert Hyman wrote:
We have two 12 year old shrub roses, supposedly "Pink Grootendorst".

One has always produced nothing but pale pink blossoms, but the other
has always had about 1/4 which are much darker, almost red.

Up 'til now I simply assumed that the grafter (these things are built
out of grafts, aren't they?) had picked up a few pieces from the
wrong pile when he built that plant, but this year I'm starting to
see a number of true bi-color blossoms, part pale pink, part dark.
Some are perfectly symmetrical, with the "north & south" quadrants
one color and the "east & west" the other.

What's up with that?

--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN |

Bert, this is a lon.......g link but it shows some color variation
also. Maybe it happens.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...3Doff%26sa%3DN

Can you copy and paste that into your browser? If not, I found it with
Google Images.
Joe T

(jtill) wrote in
oups.com:

Bert, this is a lon.......g link but it shows some color variation
also. Maybe it happens.

Thanks for the link. The bi-colored shrub looks a lot more
interesting than the pure light-pink one, so I'm hoping that whatever
it's started doing, it keeps doing.

--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN |

"Bert Hyman" wrote in message
...
We have two 12 year old shrub roses, supposedly "Pink Grootendorst".

One has always produced nothing but pale pink blossoms, but the other
has always had about 1/4 which are much darker, almost red.

Up 'til now I simply assumed that the grafter (these things are built
out of grafts, aren't they?) had picked up a few pieces from the
wrong pile when he built that plant, but this year I'm starting to
see a number of true bi-color blossoms, part pale pink, part dark.
Some are perfectly symmetrical, with the "north & south" quadrants
one color and the "east & west" the other.

What's up with that?

--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN |

Old garden roses, miniature roses, and some
modern roses aren't grafted. They are what
is referred to as "own root". Pink Grootendorst
is a Hybrid Rugosa from 1923. I would be
tempted to assume your roses are not grafted.
You can check visually.

Several possibilities for unexpected colors:
(1) one of the rose bushes was mislabeled originally

(2) roses will sometimes throw out a different color
bloom as a natural mutation. Some varieties are
produced this way. I have a Variegata di Bologna
(Bourbon) that is supposed to be a red/white striped
rose, but which regularly produces solid reddish pink
blooms as well as the striped blooms. I recall reading
somewhere that one of this variety's parents
produced a solid bloom, so in my case the odd
colored blooms are coming from one of the parents.

(3) If your odd colored rose bush was grafted,
it could have reverted to the rootstock. But that
is probably the least likely explanation.

You might check out www.helpmefind.com and
look at the photos provided for Pink Grootendorst
to see how close the colors come to yours.

Gail
near San Antonio TX USA Zone 8

Gail Futoran wrote:
"Bert Hyman" wrote in message
...
We have two 12 year old shrub roses, supposedly "Pink Grootendorst".

One has always produced nothing but pale pink blossoms, but the other
has always had about 1/4 which are much darker, almost red.

Up 'til now I simply assumed that the grafter (these things are built
out of grafts, aren't they?) had picked up a few pieces from the
wrong pile when he built that plant, but this year I'm starting to
see a number of true bi-color blossoms, part pale pink, part dark.
Some are perfectly symmetrical, with the "north & south" quadrants
one color and the "east & west" the other.

What's up with that?

--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN |

Old garden roses, miniature roses, and some
modern roses aren't grafted. They are what
is referred to as "own root". Pink Grootendorst
is a Hybrid Rugosa from 1923. I would be
tempted to assume your roses are not grafted.
You can check visually.

Several possibilities for unexpected colors:
(1) one of the rose bushes was mislabeled originally

(2) roses will sometimes throw out a different color
bloom as a natural mutation. Some varieties are
produced this way. I have a Variegata di Bologna
(Bourbon) that is supposed to be a red/white striped
rose, but which regularly produces solid reddish pink
blooms as well as the striped blooms. I recall reading
somewhere that one of this variety's parents
produced a solid bloom, so in my case the odd
colored blooms are coming from one of the parents.

(3) If your odd colored rose bush was grafted,
it could have reverted to the rootstock. But that
is probably the least likely explanation.

You might check out www.helpmefind.com and
look at the photos provided for Pink Grootendorst
to see how close the colors come to yours.

Gail
near San Antonio TX USA Zone 8

Gail, when I GOOGLED Grootendorst there were many shades of pink, I
think much was due to cameras and other factors in the photo rendering.
Or, is there that much variation in that cultivar.
Joe T

"jtill" wrote in message
oups.com...

Gail, when I GOOGLED Grootendorst there were many shades of pink, I
think much was due to cameras and other factors in the photo rendering.
Or, is there that much variation in that cultivar.
Joe T

Cameras & lighting, photo reproduction, sure,
but also cultural differences - time of year,
weather (cold, hot, dry, wet), even bloom age
(some blooms change color as they age - think
Mutabilis) can have some influence on bloom
color. Some varieties seem to have the same
color(s) no matter what; other varieties seem
to have a great deal of variation. I don't have a
Pink Grootendorst, so no personal experience.

Ain't roses wonderful?

Gail
near San Antonio TX USA Zone 8

(Gail Futoran) wrote in
:

(3) If your odd colored rose bush was grafted,
it could have reverted to the rootstock. But that
is probably the least likely explanation.

Thanks for the info, but remember, 3/4 of the bush in question is
the same color as the other (and the color a Pink Grootendorst is
"supposed" to be).

And, it's the recent addition of individual bi-colored blossoms
that prompted my post.

Still, they -are plants, and they'll do whatever it is that plants
do, and I'll just sit back and watch.

--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN |

"Bert Hyman" wrote in message
...
(Gail Futoran) wrote in
:

(3) If your odd colored rose bush was grafted,
it could have reverted to the rootstock. But that
is probably the least likely explanation.

Thanks for the info, but remember, 3/4 of the bush in question is
the same color as the other (and the color a Pink Grootendorst is
"supposed" to be).

And, it's the recent addition of individual bi-colored blossoms
that prompted my post.

Still, they -are plants, and they'll do whatever it is that plants
do, and I'll just sit back and watch.

--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN |

I suspect your Pink Grootenbrost and my
Variegata di Bologna are behaving similarly.
As I recall my rose produced only or mostly
produced the expected striped blooms for the
first few years after it was planted (1999), and it
was only later that it started producing solid
color blooms, basically the reverse of your
experience.

Maybe your rose and mine are "reverting" back
to one of their parents. I've read that can
happen. But that's a genetic process as I vaguely
understand it, not a function of the grafting or
seeding or whatever process produced your
specific plant.

The American Rose Society has articles on
progagating roses, which might be of interest.
www.ars.org
Read down the front page until you see the
underlined word Articles. Those are in the
public area so you don't have to be a member
to access them.

Gail
near San Antonio TX USA Zone 8

Gail Futoran wrote:
"Bert Hyman" wrote in message
...
(Gail Futoran) wrote in
:

(3) If your odd colored rose bush was grafted,
it could have reverted to the rootstock. But that
is probably the least likely explanation.

Thanks for the info, but remember, 3/4 of the bush in question is
the same color as the other (and the color a Pink Grootendorst is
"supposed" to be).

And, it's the recent addition of individual bi-colored blossoms
that prompted my post.

Still, they -are plants, and they'll do whatever it is that plants
do, and I'll just sit back and watch.

--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN |

I suspect your Pink Grootenbrost and my
Variegata di Bologna are behaving similarly.
As I recall my rose produced only or mostly
produced the expected striped blooms for the
first few years after it was planted (1999), and it
was only later that it started producing solid
color blooms, basically the reverse of your
experience.

Maybe your rose and mine are "reverting" back
to one of their parents. I've read that can
happen. But that's a genetic process as I vaguely
understand it, not a function of the grafting or
seeding or whatever process produced your
specific plant.

The American Rose Society has articles on
progagating roses, which might be of interest.
www.ars.org
Read down the front page until you see the
underlined word Articles. Those are in the
public area so you don't have to be a member
to access them.

Gail
near San Antonio TX USA Zone 8

Hey Gail, that was timely information, I just got back from Arkansas
with a bunch of rose cuttings from the cemetary where my Grand Parents
are buried. I have half a dozen and have them soaking in a bleach,
Physan, and root stimulator solution and will set them out today. I
used that link to read the instructions again. I always hold the
cuttings under water and re-cut them as I have read that when cut in
air the capillary action sucks air into them blocking the tubes. Should
I ever get these to bloom maybe you can help identify them. One is a
small pink, the others, who knows. They are all old, probably from
cutting traded for years so they could be 50 years old or more. Hope I
have a red and a white! Wouldn't that be great!
Joe T
Baytown

jtill wrote:
Gail Futoran wrote:
"Bert Hyman" wrote in message
...
(Gail Futoran) wrote in
:

(3) If your odd colored rose bush was grafted,
it could have reverted to the rootstock. But that
is probably the least likely explanation.

Thanks for the info, but remember, 3/4 of the bush in question is
the same color as the other (and the color a Pink Grootendorst is
"supposed" to be).

And, it's the recent addition of individual bi-colored blossoms
that prompted my post.

Still, they -are plants, and they'll do whatever it is that plants
do, and I'll just sit back and watch.

--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN |

I suspect your Pink Grootenbrost and my
Variegata di Bologna are behaving similarly.
As I recall my rose produced only or mostly
produced the expected striped blooms for the
first few years after it was planted (1999), and it
was only later that it started producing solid
color blooms, basically the reverse of your
experience.

Maybe your rose and mine are "reverting" back
to one of their parents. I've read that can
happen. But that's a genetic process as I vaguely
understand it, not a function of the grafting or
seeding or whatever process produced your
specific plant.

The American Rose Society has articles on
progagating roses, which might be of interest.
www.ars.org
Read down the front page until you see the
underlined word Articles. Those are in the
public area so you don't have to be a member
to access them.

Gail
near San Antonio TX USA Zone 8

Hey Gail, that was timely information, I just got back from Arkansas
with a bunch of rose cuttings from the cemetary where my Grand Parents
are buried. I have half a dozen and have them soaking in a bleach,
Physan, and root stimulator solution and will set them out today. I
used that link to read the instructions again. I always hold the
cuttings under water and re-cut them as I have read that when cut in
air the capillary action sucks air into them blocking the tubes. Should
I ever get these to bloom maybe you can help identify them. One is a
small pink, the others, who knows. They are all old, probably from
cutting traded for years so they could be 50 years old or more. Hope I
have a red and a white! Wouldn't that be great!
Joe T
Baytown

"jtill" wrote in message
oups.com...

Hey Gail, that was timely information, I just got back from Arkansas
with a bunch of rose cuttings from the cemetary where my Grand Parents
are buried. I have half a dozen and have them soaking in a bleach,
Physan, and root stimulator solution and will set them out today. I
used that link to read the instructions again. I always hold the
cuttings under water and re-cut them as I have read that when cut in
air the capillary action sucks air into them blocking the tubes. Should
I ever get these to bloom maybe you can help identify them. One is a
small pink, the others, who knows. They are all old, probably from
cutting traded for years so they could be 50 years old or more. Hope I
have a red and a white! Wouldn't that be great!
Joe T
Baytown

Sounds like a neat project.

Identifying - well, that's another kettle of
fish. I have a pink someone gave me as
a cutting that was growing in her mother-
in-law's yard. They'd cut it down to ground
level several time and the rose kept coming
back. I've had this rose for 8 years and I
still don't know what it is.

Gail

Gail Futoran wrote:
"jtill" wrote in message
oups.com...

Hey Gail, that was timely information, I just got back from Arkansas
with a bunch of rose cuttings from the cemetary where my Grand Parents
are buried. I have half a dozen and have them soaking in a bleach,
Physan, and root stimulator solution and will set them out today. I
used that link to read the instructions again. I always hold the
cuttings under water and re-cut them as I have read that when cut in
air the capillary action sucks air into them blocking the tubes. Should
I ever get these to bloom maybe you can help identify them. One is a
small pink, the others, who knows. They are all old, probably from
cutting traded for years so they could be 50 years old or more. Hope I
have a red and a white! Wouldn't that be great!
Joe T
Baytown

Sounds like a neat project.

Identifying - well, that's another kettle of
fish. I have a pink someone gave me as
a cutting that was growing in her mother-
in-law's yard. They'd cut it down to ground
level several time and the rose kept coming
back. I've had this rose for 8 years and I
still don't know what it is.

Gail

I will be in the same boat probably.
Joet

"jtill" wrote in message
oups.com...

Gail Futoran wrote:
"jtill" wrote in message
oups.com...

Hey Gail, that was timely information, I just got back from Arkansas
with a bunch of rose cuttings from the cemetary where my Grand Parents
are buried. I have half a dozen and have them soaking in a bleach,
Physan, and root stimulator solution and will set them out today. I
used that link to read the instructions again. I always hold the
cuttings under water and re-cut them as I have read that when cut in
air the capillary action sucks air into them blocking the tubes. Should
I ever get these to bloom maybe you can help identify them. One is a
small pink, the others, who knows. They are all old, probably from
cutting traded for years so they could be 50 years old or more. Hope I
have a red and a white! Wouldn't that be great!
Joe T
Baytown

Sounds like a neat project.

Identifying - well, that's another kettle of
fish. I have a pink someone gave me as
a cutting that was growing in her mother-
in-law's yard. They'd cut it down to ground
level several time and the rose kept coming
back. I've had this rose for 8 years and I
still don't know what it is.

Gail

I will be in the same boat probably.
Joet

Antique Rose Emporium carries some "found"
and "rustled" roses. It might be worth a visit
to their Brenham store once your rescued roses
start blooming.
http://www.antiqueroseemporium.com/findus.html
[Apologies if you already know all that, Joe!]

Gail
near San Antonio TX Zone 8 USA

Gail Futoran wrote:
"jtill" wrote in message
oups.com...

Gail Futoran wrote:
"jtill" wrote in message
oups.com...

Hey Gail, that was timely information, I just got back from Arkansas
with a bunch of rose cuttings from the cemetary where my Grand Parents
are buried. I have half a dozen and have them soaking in a bleach,
Physan, and root stimulator solution and will set them out today. I
used that link to read the instructions again. I always hold the
cuttings under water and re-cut them as I have read that when cut in
air the capillary action sucks air into them blocking the tubes. Should
I ever get these to bloom maybe you can help identify them. One is a
small pink, the others, who knows. They are all old, probably from
cutting traded for years so they could be 50 years old or more. Hope I
have a red and a white! Wouldn't that be great!
Joe T
Baytown

Sounds like a neat project.

Identifying - well, that's another kettle of
fish. I have a pink someone gave me as
a cutting that was growing in her mother-
in-law's yard. They'd cut it down to ground
level several time and the rose kept coming
back. I've had this rose for 8 years and I
still don't know what it is.

Gail

I will be in the same boat probably.
Joet

Antique Rose Emporium carries some "found"
and "rustled" roses. It might be worth a visit
to their Brenham store once your rescued roses
start blooming.
http://www.antiqueroseemporium.com/findus.html
[Apologies if you already know all that, Joe!]

Gail
near San Antonio TX Zone 8 USA
Thanks Gail. I have been there several times and should I get blooms
will photo and go again got ID.
Joe T

roses will sometimes bandy out a altered color bloom as a accustomed mutation. Some varieties are produced this way. I accept a Variegata di Bologna (Bourbon) that is declared to be a red/white striped rose, but which consistently produces solid brownish pink blooms as able-bodied as the striped blooms.