"Roland" of University of Texas' Institute for Cellular and Molecular
Biology wrote:


I am not alone in thinking that clay is good. Let me provide the opinion
of several Rose authorities:

snips IMPRESSIVE list of other people who love clay

Very nice. I still disagree.


So even if you assume I am an idiot

Now, now, Roland, when Shiva thinks someone is an idiot, she tends to say
things like "Idiot!" Ask anyone.

snips more Clay Worshipping

You are obsessed with drainage

Drainage is the LEAST of my obessions, duckie.




So your universal advice to ³get rid of clay² is ill founded and ill
informed. Your posts have other examples where you are in fact ill
informed but seeing the tone of your replies to me I will let you
discover your other delusions by yourself.

Thank you, Roland, for allowing me to keep some of my illusions, er,
delusions. As for my tone, you came here with a bug up your butt. (As you
well know, that is Texan for "chip on your shoulder." This is a discussion
group. I voiced an opinion, you disagree, I disagree with you. So what?
People are growing roses all kinds of different ways. My way has worked
for five years. Yours has worked for ... ? Do you even GROW roses, Roland,
or is the theory and a testosterone-driven need to be RIGHT all you need?



You¹ve also raised some side issues in your reply to me and others (Texas
is flat

I said EAST Texas, Roland. And unless you folks have made some major
changes since I lived there for several years, it IS flat, and exactly as
I described it. You live in Austin, which is quite hilly, and by Texas
standards, rather pretty. I have stayed at the Driscoll quite often.


Š numerous gratuitous insults etc. etc) that I do not have the time
or desire to disabuse you of.

Roland

Now now. There there. Etc. This is a discussion group. Don't go away mad!

On Thu, 6 Feb 2003 15:50:22 -0500 (EST), "Shiva"
wrote:
I have stayed at the Driscoll quite often.

I meant Driskill. Honest. Just because I forgot how to spell it
doesn't mean I don't love it.

I want to say quit it it you two.

But this is getting interesting.

Cue Joe Doe.

Theo


"Shiva" wrote in message
news:aHlwYXRpYQ==.cd74be4618ba5499298562ee88c8fb86 @1044564622.cotse.net...
"Roland" of University of Texas' Institute for Cellular and Molecular
Biology wrote:


I am not alone in thinking that clay is good. Let me provide the
opinion
of several Rose authorities:

snips IMPRESSIVE list of other people who love clay

Very nice. I still disagree.


So even if you assume I am an idiot

Now, now, Roland, when Shiva thinks someone is an idiot, she tends to say
things like "Idiot!" Ask anyone.

snips more Clay Worshipping

You are obsessed with drainage

Drainage is the LEAST of my obessions, duckie.




So your universal advice to ³get rid of clay² is ill founded and ill
informed. Your posts have other examples where you are in fact ill
informed but seeing the tone of your replies to me I will let you
discover your other delusions by yourself.

Thank you, Roland, for allowing me to keep some of my illusions, er,
delusions. As for my tone, you came here with a bug up your butt. (As you
well know, that is Texan for "chip on your shoulder." This is a discussion
group. I voiced an opinion, you disagree, I disagree with you. So what?
People are growing roses all kinds of different ways. My way has worked
for five years. Yours has worked for ... ? Do you even GROW roses, Roland,
or is the theory and a testosterone-driven need to be RIGHT all you need?



You¹ve also raised some side issues in your reply to me and others
(Texas
is flat

I said EAST Texas, Roland. And unless you folks have made some major
changes since I lived there for several years, it IS flat, and exactly as
I described it. You live in Austin, which is quite hilly, and by Texas
standards, rather pretty. I have stayed at the Driscoll quite often.


S numerous gratuitous insults etc. etc) that I do not have the time
or desire to disabuse you of.

Roland

Now now. There there. Etc. This is a discussion group. Don't go away mad!

Shiva said:

Roland ...wrote:
I am not alone in thinking that clay is good. Let me provide the opinion
of several Rose authorities:
snips IMPRESSIVE list of other people who love clay
Very nice. I still disagree.

I too disagree. And here are some of my arguements:

First and biggest: most clay minerals cause a chemical reaction
that 'locks up' iron in the soil. That is, it makes it unavailable
for plant use. Regular amendments of iron are needed for good plant
health in these soils. New growth appearing on the rose bush that is
light yellow green or whitish is an indication of lack of iron.

Second: Clay soils are usually alkaline with a pH of 7 or above.
Roses thrive in a slightly acid soil of pH 6.5. Therefore acid
inducing is necessary. This is usually accomplished in these soils
with the addition of decomposing plant material such as compost or
horse manure or even top mulch.

Third: High percentage clay soils have poor drainage. In areas with
a lot of rain, this leads to occasional standing water, something that
quickly becomes deadly for rose roots, and at the least leads to poor
root health.

Fourth: Clay soils are dense and easily compacted which keeps air
from moving down into the soil. This slows the natural process of
composting of whatever organic matter is present in the soil. People
with heavy clay soils need to dig with a digging fork and aerate the
soil around their roses in order for them to perform well. Or add a
lot of worms..... grin

In summary: All of these problems can be dealt with, but it takes
extra effort than that required for loamy soil with a high (60
percent) level of decomposing organic matter.

It is possible to grow good roses in high percentage clay soils, but
you have to amend on a regular basis. Since most people don't know
this or do it, they would tend to see roses grown in these soils
perform less well than roses grown in 'better' soils.

My soil is a river floodplain in the bottom of an old lake bed, and
therefore very high in clay. In order to grow roses well in my soil,
I dig a hole about 20 inches in diameter and 20 inches deep, toss the
clay, and fill the hole with 2 cubic feet of 'EarthGro' brand Potting
Soil bought from Home Depot for $3.96 a bag.

Since I started doing this, my roses have thrived. Roses still
growing in my older beds with high percentage clay soils do noticeably
less well even though the soil around these plants is top amended
regularly.

When you look at the big picture of how much you really spend on each
rose bush, an extra 4 bucks is really worth the value that it gives
in the long run.

By the way, I learned the above technique from an assortment of great
and impressive Rose Authorities as well, right here on rgr several
years ago.

Bob Bauer
The voice of experience...... heh heh

Zone 6 in Salt Lake City
http://www.rose-roses.com/

Bob Bauer wrote:
Shiva said:
Roland ...wrote:
I am not alone in thinking that clay is good. Let me provide the opinion
of several Rose authorities:
snips IMPRESSIVE list of other people who love clay
Very nice. I still disagree.

I too disagree. And here are some of my arguments:

First and biggest: most clay minerals cause a chemical reaction
that 'locks up' iron in the soil. That is, it makes it unavailable
for plant use. Regular amendments of iron are needed for good plant
health in these soils. New growth appearing on the rose bush that is
light yellow green or whitish is an indication of lack of iron.

It isn't really clay that locks up nutrient - or more accurately,
inhibits their availability for absorption. It's soil pH. It is true
that unless soil pH is balanced, nutrient become unavailable
chemically. Here's a partial explanation on one of my favorite rose
sites: http://www.scvrs.homestead.com/BalancePH.html

Second: Clay soils are usually alkaline with a pH of 7 or above.
Roses thrive in a slightly acid soil of pH 6.5. Therefore acid
inducing is necessary. This is usually accomplished in these soils
with the addition of decomposing plant material such as compost or
horse manure or even top mulch.

I thought the pH of clay soils varies widely regionally. In the SE,
they say clay is acidic. In the west, they say clay is alkaline. In
fact, people with clay soils in the SE add lime to keep it from being
too acidic.

Third: High percentage clay soils have poor drainage. In areas with
a lot of rain, this leads to occasional standing water, something that
quickly becomes deadly for rose roots, and at the least leads to poor
root health.

Drainage is definitely important. If you live on a slope, it's a lot
less of a concern with roses than with some plants that hate wet roots.
Drains are the easiest thing to build: they are simply a channel on the
low side of the hole,about 4 inches wide and almost as deep as the
hole, filled with rocks. Amendment addresses drainage and pH. Around
here, you can kill more roses during 6 months of assured seasonal
drought than you can by drowning them during the 6 months of
intermittent rain. But if you live in flat clay, you need to create
drainage, and raised beds will do it for you. Replacing clay with top
soil will only create a pot and can actually create a drain into your
rose hole.

Fourth: Clay soils are dense and easily compacted which keeps air
from moving down into the soil. This slows the natural process of
composting of whatever organic matter is present in the soil. People
with heavy clay soils need to dig with a digging fork and aerate the
soil around their roses in order for them to perform well. Or add a
lot of worms..... grin

Flip side of Number 3. Call it 3.b. This ignores the possibility of
soil organisms working in the top 6 inches of soil if they are provided
a lot of organic matter. That's where most of the roots are anyway, top
8 inches for sure. A few anchor roots go down deep, but I find them
drilled right into the clay. But compaction is a real issue in all
garden soils: they shouldn't be compressed when wet, and they shouldn't
be trampled.

In summary: All of these problems can be dealt with, but it takes
extra effort than that required for loamy soil with a high (60
percent) level of decomposing organic matter.

Well, yeah. We all want loamy soil. I'm not convinced you get it all
that often in a bag. Some are good, some really stink, in my
experience. I amend clay with potting soil, especially when the other
component of the hole is rocks.

It is possible to grow good roses in high percentage clay soils, but
you have to amend on a regular basis.

Absolutely true. You reap what you so. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust.
You have to return to the soils what you take out.

Since most people don't know
this or do it, they would tend to see roses grown in these soils
perform less well than roses grown in 'better' soils.

Or they learn a not very hard lesson: mulch mulch mulch.

My soil is a river floodplain in the bottom of an old lake bed, and
therefore very high in clay. In order to grow roses well in my soil,
I dig a hole about 20 inches in diameter and 20 inches deep, toss the
clay, and fill the hole with 2 cubic feet of 'EarthGro' brand Potting
Soil bought from Home Depot for $3.96 a bag.

Since I started doing this, my roses have thrived. Roses still
growing in my older beds with high percentage clay soils do noticeably
less well even though the soil around these plants is top amended
regularly.

And this has nothing to do with more experience or perhaps a tendency
early on to cut corner, hmmm? Every rose I plugged into a cheaty little
hole thumbed its nose at me, except for Iceberg, which promptly grew to
7 feet.

When you look at the big picture of how much you really spend on each
rose bush, an extra 4 bucks is really worth the value that it gives
in the long run.

True. $4 of material is a necessity for every rose hole. Next time I
dig a rose hole in pure yaller clay, I'm going to take a picture for
you: both the clay and the rose. I just make loam in situ.

By the way, I learned the above technique from an assortment of great
and impressive Rose Authorities as well, right here on rgr several
years ago.

The voice of experience...... heh heh

What roses have you killed lately, anyway? I never hear about yer roses
dying. Fess up.
;~)

In article , "Theo Asir"
wrote:

I want to say quit it it you two.

But this is getting interesting.

Cue Joe Doe.

Theo


Joe Doe exits stage left.

I have other windmills to tilt at

Roland

"Shiva" wrote in message
news:aHlwYXRpYQ==.cd74be4618ba5499298562ee88c8fb86 @1044564622.cotse.net...
"Roland" of University of Texas' Institute for Cellular and Molecular
Biology wrote:

Now, now, Roland, when Shiva thinks someone is an idiot, she tends to say
things like "Idiot!" Ask anyone.

*cough, cough*.....um, yeah, I'll vouch for that.. heh heh heh :Þ
Hey, if everyone always agreed w/ everyone around here, it sure would be
quiet!

All this talk about clay/no clay.... it sure is a good thing roses can't
talk, otherwise mine would probably be bitching at me!

JimS.
Seattle

Let me say right up front here that I believe that 40 percent clay and
60 percent organic matter is a GREAT soil. I'm not totally anti clay
soil at all. In fact, I submit that clay plus organic matter is highly
superior to sand plus organic matter. (Just to set the record
straight) Just ask Dave Amorde about my opinion on this...g

Cass commented:

It isn't really clay that locks up nutrient - or more accurately,
inhibits their availability for absorption. It's soil pH. It is true
that unless soil pH is balanced, nutrient become unavailable
chemically.

You are correct that it is pH, but that is only part of the story. The
clay actually does play a role.

Here is more than you wanted to know, but the actual role of clay
minerals in the process:

Clay minerals are products of the weathering of rock minerals such as
feldspars and other silicate minerals. They play an important role
both physically and chemically in soils and sediments. Physically,
because of their small particle size and flatness, (which leads to
easy compaction and paucity of drainage) and chemically because of
their ion absorptive abilities.

Clay minerals are aluminosilicates in that they most often contain
aluminium, silicon and oxygen atoms. Most clay minerals occur in platy
sheets which leads them to have large surface areas. In all clay
minerals except kaolinite a process known as ISOMORPHOUS
SUBSTITUTION takes place.

This process occurs when a tetravalent Silicon atom is replaced by a
trivalent Aluminum ion and when a divalent Magnesium atom replaces
Aliminum in the mineral lattice. The net result of the substitution is
to create a negative charge on the clay surface. (Negative charge
equals high pH).

Clay minerals are well known for their absorptive qualities in
relation to cations (positively charged ions) such as Iron, Magnesium
or Aluminum. When in the presence of liquid solution (when the soil
is wet and the iron molecules dissolved) the iron ions can attach
themselves into the actual mineral lattice of clay minerals.

The clay structure actually being the very place of chemical 'lock
up'.

Clay minerals are not the only culprit in Iron depletion of course.
The presence of alkaline carbonates such as calcite and other 'salts'
can react with the free iron as well.

Increasing the 'acidity' of the soil by adding things like organic
matter can neutralize the effect of the clay's chemical 'needs'.

I thought the pH of clay soils varies widely regionally. In the SE,
they say clay is acidic. In the west, they say clay is alkaline. In
fact, people with clay soils in the SE add lime to keep it from being
too acidic.

There are certain clays that are 'acidic'. These are chemically
weathered clays that have been changed by being in oxidation
environments for long periods of time. This is especially true in
humid tropical or subtropical areas (that are highly oxidizing
environments).

The majority of clays however are alkaline.

.... But if you live in flat clay, you need to create
drainage, and raised beds will do it for you. Replacing clay with top
soil will only create a pot and can actually create a drain into your
rose hole.

Don't forget that no one is talking about 100 percent potting clay
here. All of the soils we're talking about will drain to some degree.
Your above statement only makes sense if there is no drainage in the
soil at all.

What roses have you killed lately, anyway? I never hear about yer roses
dying. Fess up. ;~)

Ain't killed any for the last 2 years...... That's my story and I'm
stickin' to it....... heh heh



Bob Bauer
(The only reason I know anything about clay is because I used to be a
Geologist.)

Roland, clearly the Stuffy Academic Type wrote:


Joe Doe exits stage left.

I have other windmills to tilt at

Translation: Shiva is right, I don't grow roses. I am a theory man. All
the way. Never even touched real clay, as a matter of fact!

I knew it! Yet when I tried to suck Roland into a philosophical discussion
with the "ants with thumbs" post, he balked. Perhaps Roland's taste for
theory stops at the molecular level.



Roland

JimS. wrote:


*cough, cough*.....um, yeah, I'll vouch for that.. heh heh heh :Þ
Hey, if everyone always agreed w/ everyone around here, it sure would be
quiet!

Yes indeed. I got on roland's nerves. He loves clay, I hate clay. It's a
classic conflict. You must admit, though, I did leave him with his God
given right to love his clay. I would never deprive a man of his "have-to-
haves."


All this talk about clay/no clay.... it sure is a good thing roses can't
talk, otherwise mine would probably be bitching at me!

How come? Too much clay? YOU LIKE CLAY? WELL DO YOU, KID? GO AHEAD, ... G



JimS.
Seattle

"Susan H. Simko" said:

To be honest, I believe that replacing the soil is cheaper than trying
to amend it in many ways. I would need a rototiller (something I don't
own nor have the place to store) if I wanted to amend my soil. Breaking
up clay is no picnic!

And here you hit upon one of the simplest reasons I balk at amending clay
soil without removing a great deal of it. Small people, paper pushers,
older folks, MOST females I am *even* brazen enough to say, can be easily
discouraged if they think they have to have a man or some other heavy
earth moving equipment in order to grow roses. Even on a bad day I can dig
a 2 ft by 2 ft hole, even if I have to rest in the middle. But to break my
back forking around with clay?? Heaving it here and there, attempting to
mix stuff into it? Taking the chance it will be wet enough to dry to
cement? HELL no. Roland's Most Respected Theory will have to suck my roses
all the way to China before I will concede that this is what I have to do
to grow roses.

Another thing is ... I move my roses a lot. I need the soil to be easy to
work with.


I do know that by digging beds and replacing the soil, everything I have
put into my beds has thrived including my roses.


Yep. De proof is in de rosebed. But, I must say, if people can grow roses
in clay, well, GOOD! I'm all for more roses.

Bob Bauer patiently explained:

Let me say right up front here that I believe that 40 percent clay and
60 percent organic matter is a GREAT soil. I'm not totally anti clay
soil at all. In fact, I submit that clay plus organic matter is highly
superior to sand plus organic matter. (Just to set the record
straight) Just ask Dave Amorde about my opinion on this...g

Cass commented:

It isn't really clay that locks up nutrient - or more accurately,
inhibits their availability for absorption. It's soil pH. It is true
that unless soil pH is balanced, nutrient become unavailable
chemically.

You are correct that it is pH, but that is only part of the story. The
clay actually does play a role.

Here is more than you wanted to know, but the actual role of clay
minerals in the process:

You rock, Bob. heh heh.

Clay minerals are products of the weathering of rock minerals such as
feldspars and other silicate minerals. They play an important role
both physically and chemically in soils and sediments. Physically,
because of their small particle size and flatness, (which leads to
easy compaction and paucity of drainage) and chemically because of
their ion absorptive abilities.

Clay minerals are aluminosilicates in that they most often contain
aluminium, silicon and oxygen atoms. Most clay minerals occur in platy
sheets which leads them to have large surface areas. In all clay
minerals except kaolinite a process known as ISOMORPHOUS
SUBSTITUTION takes place.

This process occurs when a tetravalent Silicon atom is replaced by a
trivalent Aluminum ion and when a divalent Magnesium atom replaces
Aliminum in the mineral lattice. The net result of the substitution is
to create a negative charge on the clay surface. (Negative charge
equals high pH).

Clay minerals are well known for their absorptive qualities in
relation to cations (positively charged ions) such as Iron, Magnesium
or Aluminum. When in the presence of liquid solution (when the soil
is wet and the iron molecules dissolved) the iron ions can attach
themselves into the actual mineral lattice of clay minerals.

The clay structure actually being the very place of chemical 'lock
up'.

Clay minerals are not the only culprit in Iron depletion of course.
The presence of alkaline carbonates such as calcite and other 'salts'
can react with the free iron as well.

Increasing the 'acidity' of the soil by adding things like organic
matter can neutralize the effect of the clay's chemical 'needs'.

I thought the pH of clay soils varies widely regionally. In the SE,
they say clay is acidic. In the west, they say clay is alkaline. In
fact, people with clay soils in the SE add lime to keep it from being
too acidic.

There are certain clays that are 'acidic'. These are chemically
weathered clays that have been changed by being in oxidation
environments for long periods of time. This is especially true in
humid tropical or subtropical areas (that are highly oxidizing
environments).

The majority of clays however are alkaline.

Thanks. I didn't know the relative proportions of alkaline to acidic
clays.

.... But if you live in flat clay, you need to create
drainage, and raised beds will do it for you. Replacing clay with top
soil will only create a pot and can actually create a drain into your
rose hole.

Don't forget that no one is talking about 100 percent potting clay
here. All of the soils we're talking about will drain to some degree.
Your above statement only makes sense if there is no drainage in the
soil at all.

Not really. We're talking about sufficient drainage for growing roses.
But it is very possible (I've done it) to dig a hole that won't drain
in a day. Soon the soil sours. Your hole is the drain for the
surrounding soil. I don't believe the drain in the hour test - if the
hole drains in a day, fine. But when it doesn't drain in a day, once
you get heavy rainfall for a few days, you have in effect a well (the
correct word is the device you use to collect rain, but it escapes me
at the moment). None of this matters if you don't have high rainfall,
btw. That would be the case in SLC or other arid climates.

What roses have you killed lately, anyway? I never hear about yer roses
dying. Fess up. ;~)

Ain't killed any for the last 2 years...... That's my story and I'm
stickin' to it....... heh heh

Bob Bauer
(The only reason I know anything about clay is because I used to be a
Geologist.)

I know, and that's why I tossed a few softballs to get you going. And
with this explanation, I agree with you, 100%. There's more than one
way to get loam.

Cass writes:

you have in effect a well (the
correct word is the device you use to collect rain, but it escapes me
at the moment).

Cistern?

In article , Unique Too
wrote:

Cass writes:

you have in effect a well (the
correct word is the device you use to collect rain, but it escapes me
at the moment).

Cistern?

Thanks! It came to me about 35 miles north of here as I stared at a
mudpit near a foundation....

"Cass" wrote in message
...
In article , Unique Too
wrote:

Cass writes:

you have in effect a well (the
correct word is the device you use to collect rain, but it escapes me
at the moment).

Cistern?

Thanks! It came to me about 35 miles north of here as I stared at a
mudpit near a foundation....

Did you have an uncontrollable urge to run out and plant a rose in it? :Þ

JimS.
Seattle