On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 15:52:56 +0100, Malcolm wrote:

READ: http://www.indianpediatrics.net/feb1999/feb-198-200.htm
That's the best article i found on the net that CLEARLY explains what
is what!

I note that the above URL refers to the situation in India.

The advice given by the UK National Health Service differs in saying:

http://www.nhsdirect.nhs.uk/articles...ArticleId=1039

"Tetanus – if all childhood vaccinations are up-to-date, a tetanus
booster is only needed for people who are at risk of getting tetanus
following injury."

The recommended five-dose tetanus immunization schedule is a
primary course of three plus two further booster doses 10 years apart.

Who should we believe, the NHS, the Indians, or your somewhat alarmist
(if I may say so) advice? Unless, of course, you are a qualified
medic???

I never claimed that i was a medic - My purpose was to remind my
fellow gardners about their periodic Tetanus shots and what things to
look into when they see their doc about cuts and bruises (the
importance of a TIG shot and the difference between a TIG and a
tetanus-vaccine).

"Alarmist" - is merely a point of view - Remember when you call my
views alarmist you are taking a stand, on something that you yourself
MAY not be qualified to comment on..Anyway, the important thing here
is to remind ppl to get their 5/10/whatever year shots and let them
decide after interacting with the doc and checking on the Internet and
talking to people.

On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 15:52:56 +0100, Malcolm wrote:
The recommended five-dose tetanus immunization schedule is a
primary course of three plus two further booster doses 10 years apart.


The Mayo Clinic has some info:
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/tet...227/DSECTION=7
This what they say:

"The DTaP vaccine consists of a series of five shots, typically
administered in the arm or thigh and given to children at ages:

* 2 months
* 4 months
* 6 months
* 15 to 18 months
* 4 to 6 years"

"Adults should receive a routine tetanus booster shot every 10 years."

"If you receive a deep or dirty wound and it has been more than five
years since your last booster shot, get another booster shot."

http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/696_tet.html [Adult immunization]

"Immunization is especially recommended for:
adults, especially those 50 years and older, because most of
the tetanus cases in recent years have occurred in this age group"

"In some individuals, antibody levels may fall too low to provide
protection before 10 years have passed. That's why people who sustain
a deep or contaminated wound should receive a booster dose if it has
been more than five years since the last dose."


http://www.drreddy.com/shots/tetanus.html [Drug company - spells it
out clearly]

"If you are exposed to tetanus within 5 years after your last dose of
vaccine (toxoid), you do not need a booster. If it's between 5 and 10
years after your last dose, you need an early dose of vaccine. If you
haven't had a tetanus immunization in more than 10 years you will need
to have both toxoid and TIG to give you full protection."

On 29 Jul 2006 08:53:56 -0700, wrote:
Vivek.M wrote:
though a doc i spoke to suggested every 1 year, if
you are past 65 and garden.

In the UK (and this is uk.rec.gardening) the advice is very different.
In fact, my Doctor refuses to give the 10-year booster to anyone over
50 at all. I can't imagine any way you would be able to get an annual
booster.
I don't think that he is right. Do remember that tetanus is no
respecter of nationality - Plus the whole uk.rec thing implies that
the newsgroup is for uk specific gardening (issues), but surely that
doesn't mean you can't quote from web-site's outside the UK!

Check out the FDA ( Food and Drug Administration ) web site:
"http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/696_tet.html" (American regulatory
body)

" Immunization is especially recommended for:
* adults, especially those 50 years and older, because most of the
tetanus cases in recent years have occurred in this age group."

"In some individuals, antibody levels may fall too low to provide
protection before 10 years have passed. That's why people who sustain
a deep or contaminated wound should receive a booster dose if it has
been more than five years since the last dose."

http://www.drreddy.com/shots/tetanus.html ( A Indian pharmaceutical
firm)
"If you are exposed to tetanus within 5 years after your last dose of
vaccine (toxoid), you do not need a booster. If it's between 5 and 10
years after your last dose, you need an early dose of vaccine. If you
haven't had a tetanus immunization in more than 10 years you will need
to have both toxoid and TIG to give you full protection."

On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 17:11:42 +0100, "Robert" wrote:
Same advice at my docs,tetanus jab not necessary if you had the 3 jab course

Rob, that doesn't sound right! "The immune system recognizes vaccine
agents as foreign, destroys them, and 'remembers' them." - Wiki.
Trouble is, this memory isn't perfect and needs constant reminding
every so many years..A persons ability to handle tetanus toxoids
depends on a lot of things like age/size-of-wound/levels-of-
clostridium/ levels-of-antibodies-in-blood-stream.

Actually i dont quite understand what the big fuss is all about - It's
a no brainer to me. I take my shot every 5 years and i keep my immune
system up-to-date (sort of like updating my PC's anti-virus *grin*) I
then get a license to root about, and roll around, in the mud all i
want.

I'd be glad to write a short reminder for URG so that newbies to
gardening are aware about the periodic tetanus shot requirement.

"Vivek.M" wrote in message
...
On 29 Jul 2006 08:53:56 -0700, wrote:
Vivek.M wrote:
though a doc i spoke to suggested every 1 year, if
you are past 65 and garden.

In the UK (and this is uk.rec.gardening) the advice is very different.
In fact, my Doctor refuses to give the 10-year booster to anyone over
50 at all. I can't imagine any way you would be able to get an annual
booster.
I don't think that he is right. Do remember that tetanus is no
respecter of nationality - Plus the whole uk.rec thing implies that
the newsgroup is for uk specific gardening (issues), but surely that
doesn't mean you can't quote from web-site's outside the UK!

It depends upon the origin, if it's american they like to frighten people
without any positive reason.

Alan



Check out the FDA ( Food and Drug Administration ) web site:
"http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/696_tet.html" (American regulatory
body)

" Immunization is especially recommended for:
* adults, especially those 50 years and older, because most of the
tetanus cases in recent years have occurred in this age group."

"In some individuals, antibody levels may fall too low to provide
protection before 10 years have passed. That's why people who sustain
a deep or contaminated wound should receive a booster dose if it has
been more than five years since the last dose."

http://www.drreddy.com/shots/tetanus.html ( A Indian pharmaceutical
firm)
"If you are exposed to tetanus within 5 years after your last dose of
vaccine (toxoid), you do not need a booster. If it's between 5 and 10
years after your last dose, you need an early dose of vaccine. If you
haven't had a tetanus immunization in more than 10 years you will need
to have both toxoid and TIG to give you full protection."

Clearly there are differences in UK and US recommendations. I worked
with NHS managers for several years and had the opportunity to discuss
vaccination policy with many clinicians. Although I totally accept
that economic decisions are a reality in today's NHS, I believe that
virtually all GPs will advise their patients on the basis of what is
correct clinically even if the NHS will not pay (for example many
travel vaccinations are only available privately). The following
website contains articles by GPs both for the general public and other
GPs.

The advice on tetanus is broadly that if someone has been through the
full UK child immunisation programme (they receive 3 shots as a baby,
another as part of the pre-school booster and another as part of the
school-leaver vaccination) then they do not normally require any
further tetanus vaccination (unless they are travelling to some place
where medical attention will not be available). However the child
vaccination programme only began in the UK in 1961 so some older adults
may not have been fully vaccinated.

You may find these of interest

info for patients from Patient UK website
- http://www.patient.co.uk/showdoc/23068839/
info for GPs from Patient UK website
- http://www.patient.co.uk/showdoc/40024824/
detailed info for clinicians (from "Green Book") -
http://www.dh.gov.uk/assetRoot/04/11/78/31/04117831.pdf

In article ,
Janet Baraclough writes:
|
| My understanding is that tetanus does not reproduce in the intestine of
| mammals, but infects them, and produces spores as the dead body decomposes.
| That source dried up over a century back.
|
| http://www.patient.co.uk/showdoc/40000432/ also disagrees with you
|
| "Tetanus
|
| Infection with Clostridium tetani, a spore-forming Gram-positive
| obligate anaerobe. Spores are found in virtually all soil, particularly
| soil rich in manure, but also in house dust and both animal and human
| faeces. "

No, it doesn't. It says that the spores are found in those locations,
and NOT that it reproduces in those locations. Spores can't reproduce
by themselves, you know, and the vegetative (reproductive) state of
tetanus is very sensitive to adverse conditions - not just oxygen.

Because of the extreme durability and small size of the spores, ones
produced from decaying animal carcases will get into the soil, be a
component of soil dust in dry conditions, and blow into other locations.
So the fact that the spores are found everywhere does not mean that the
vegetative form can grow anywhere.

I haven't found a clear statement of its life cycle in an authoritative
reference, so my understanding may be wrong. However, your references
do nothing to contradict it.

The reason that I am uncertain is that other Clostridium species are
common gut bacteria, and it is possible that it does reproduce in the
intestine of mammals - in which case, it almost certainly does so in
ours as well as those of domestic mammals. But I have seen no more than
a hint in anything I have read that that is the case - the above hints
at that, but does not state it.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Rupert (W.Yorkshire)" wrote in message
...



My Mum, who was a nurse, told me that it was painful because of the large
volume of liquid injected. They probably gave it on the bum (pardon the
expression) so that you could not see the massive syringe.
Why you have Rubella injection at 30 something? Sumat to do with impending
pregnancy etc?

"SallyJ" wrote in message
ups.com...

The advice on tetanus is broadly that if someone has been through the
full UK child immunisation programme (they receive 3 shots as a baby,
another as part of the pre-school booster and another as part of the
school-leaver vaccination) then they do not normally require any
further tetanus vaccination (unless they are travelling to some place
where medical attention will not be available). However the child
vaccination programme only began in the UK in 1961 so some older adults
may not have been fully vaccinated.

I'm way older than that. I've had two tetanus shots (very painful) in my
life, many years ago, both as a routine after accidents. I'd refuse them
now.

I'm a gardener who gets a lot of minor damage to my skin and flesh, what's
more I have chickens in the garden, they range freely and 'fertilise' the
soil.

I also have no lymph nodes under one arm so in theory am at danger from the
slightest bite, scratch, sting, burn or other damage and if I sustain such
damage should have an antibiotic shot as a matter of urgency.

That's the latest thinking. I expect it will change.

As will the flu vaccination programme, for whatever reason. A flu jab has
never been applied to me despite my eligibility.

That doesn't mean that I refuse medical intervention for all conditions by
the way, I've had breast cancer and brain tumour surgery. It's just that
some 'preventive' interventions seem to me to be irrelevant and I'm prepared
to take whatever risk there is and meanwhile enjoy a full and active life
without worrying.

I somehow have managed to survive without spending my life at the other end
of a needle.

Mary

In article ,
Mary Fisher" writes:
| "Rupert (W.Yorkshire)" wrote in message
| ...
|
| My Mum, who was a nurse, told me that it was painful because of the large
| volume of liquid injected. They probably gave it on the bum (pardon the
| expression) so that you could not see the massive syringe.

Tetanus has not had to inject a large volume since 1950 (I can't speak
for before then), and has never been amoung the nastier injections.
It has normally been given in the shoulder, and the syringe never was
massive.

Compared to TAB (Typhoid and Paratyphoid A and B), it was and less
nasty - the latter caused and causes a lot of bad reactions.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message

I also have no lymph nodes under one arm so in theory am at danger
from the
slightest bite, scratch, sting, burn or other damage and if I
sustain such
damage should have an antibiotic shot as a matter of urgency.

That's the latest thinking. I expect it will change.

I have been given a health warnings for those with no lymph nodes is
recent months and it didn't involve an outomatic jab. It was to use
antiseptic to clean any wound (even a scratch) and to then dress the
wound and to use an antiseptic cream in association with the dressing.
Rose thorns are said to be the most dangerous for the development of
cellulitis.

I too have always been careless about my own health but given the
right rollicking I got about what happens with cellulitis and how
easily and quickly it can develop from even a small scratch, I now
follow the routine. Why take the risk when the rememdy is so easy?

On 30 Jul 2006 10:07:06 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:
No, it doesn't. It says that the spores are found in those locations,
and NOT that it reproduces in those locations. Spores can't reproduce
by themselves, you know, and the vegetative (reproductive) state of
tetanus is very sensitive to adverse conditions - not just oxygen.

Nick, C.Tetani DOES NOT require a host, dead or alive, to survive and
breed. Not only that, spores can and do change (quickly) from being
metabolically in-active to active, reproducing bacterial cells when
they encounter suitable conditions (PH, lack of O2, temperature). I
asked a friend who is doing his micro-bio plus i googled it. The
spores themselves don't reproduce, but in a O2 deficit environment
(possibly wet clay soil and wounds) the bacteria ought to thrive.

http://www.bookrags.com/sciences/gen...ia-gen-02.html
(Look for "Clostrodium")
http://www.textbookofbacteriology.net/clostridia.html
(Look for "ancient organisms")

In article ,
Vivek.M writes:
|
| Nick, C.Tetani DOES NOT require a host, dead or alive, to survive and
| breed. ...

The first reference gave no indication of the environment in which it
breeds, and the second I already referred to. You may be right, but
I remain skeptical about ALL definite statements about its life cycle.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Same advice at my docs,tetanus jab not necessary if you had the 3
jab course
:
In A & E recently after an accident at work, when I couldn't remember
how long it had been since my last booster the doc gave me a tetanus
jab 'just in case'. He told me it wouldn't matter if I had one every
day - it would just be a waste of time and money to have them
frequently. And no they aren't painful these days - I remember some
stiffness after one I had in the 1950s.
--
Rod

My real address is rodtheweedygardeneratmyweedyisp
Just remove the weedy bits
and transplant the appropriate symbol at.

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
Janet Baraclough writes:
|
| My understanding is that tetanus does not reproduce in the
intestine of
| mammals, but infects them, and produces spores as the dead body
decomposes.
| That source dried up over a century back.
|
| http://www.patient.co.uk/showdoc/40000432/ also disagrees
with you
|
| "Tetanus
|
| Infection with Clostridium tetani, a spore-forming Gram-positive
| obligate anaerobe. Spores are found in virtually all soil,
particularly
| soil rich in manure, but also in house dust and both animal and
human
| faeces. "

No, it doesn't. It says that the spores are found in those
locations,
and NOT that it reproduces in those locations.

Since the spores are still in the UK (as they are worldwide), it is
immaterial whether the spores reproduce in the gut of mammals or not.

The most likely source of infection for gardeners would in all
likelihood be from a wound sustained whilst gardening and such a wound
could give acess to the spores. I doubt whether too many gardeners
ingest a lot of soil and so don't need to worry about the reproduction
or otherwise of tetanus spores in their gut..

In article ,
"David D Stretch" writes:
|
| On a personal note. I spent effectively 6 months in a semi-rural part
| of central China recently (with a short break in the middle when I had
| to return to the UK unexpectedly). The number of jabs I was advised to
| get before I went did not include Typhoid, and my GP's nurses, who had
| had to phone up people to get advice as to what jabs I ought to get,
| said it wasn't necessary when I asked about it. Additionally, when I
| sliced open my finger 3 days after getting back in March, the A&E
| department, as it was being stiched up, asked if I'd had Typhoid jabs,
| and when I said the last one I had had was back in 1980 after being
| bitten by a rat, they said they didn't think I needed one now. I am
| over 50, though.

Well, typhoid isn't generally an infectious agents of cuts, so they may
have got confused :-)

Apparently, the reason that the recommendation changed is that so many
more people (from the West) were dying from reaction to TAB than were
likely to be saved by it. It gives only a moderate (c. 70%) immunity,
anyway, and is a VERY nasty jab from the reaction point of view. Also,
it rarely kills people in good health who are given even moderate
medical treatment (mainly against dehydration and exhaustion). It is
only acute and persistant diarrhoea, after all.

Tetanus is rather different ....


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.