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Old 23-10-2003, 11:02 PM
Janet Tweedy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Getting rid of ground elder

In article , Jaques d'Altrades
writes

I had to replough and re-harrow twice before I could do anything at all,
and the ley of mixed grasses and clover I put down eventually didn't do
well at all for a couple of years.



But did the ground elder grow?

janet
--
Janet Tweedy
Dalmatian Telegraph
http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk
  #62   Report Post  
Old 23-10-2003, 11:42 PM
Kay Easton
 
Posts: n/a
Default Getting rid of ground elder

In article , martin
writes
On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 18:01:00 +0100, Kay Easton
wrote:

In article , martin
writes
On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 17:28:14 +0100, Malcolm Ogilvie
wrote:


Note the words "in the wild". Private gardens are not classed as "in
the wild".

Odd because it says quite clearly "garden" in
http://www.defra.gov.uk/paw/publications/law/5_1_7.htm

"NOTE: This offence is similar to the one relating to animals (section
14(1) though it only applies to plants on the list and not the
non-native plants generally. The latter would be impossible as
virtually every garden in the country is stocked with mainly
non-native plants"

And exactly where in that does it say that you cannot grow giant hogweed
in a private garden?


You are not allowed to grow giant hog weeds anywhere. That's the whole
point of the act.

The whole point of the act is that you are not allowed to release giant
hogweed into the wild or to allow it to get into the wild.

Or that a garden is part of 'the wild'?


Would they use "garden" in the example if it didn't apply to gardens?


That was not an example.
That was a reason why there is a specified list of limited plants
whereas the situation for animals is that no alien species should be
released into the wild.

If it applied to gardens, the Act would be written in terms of it being
an offence to 'cultivate or allow to grow giant hogweed'. Instead, it is
written in terms of planting in the wild or allowing to escape into the
wild. There would be no need to make 'allowing to escape into the wild'
an offence if there were nowhere that it could legally be grown.
--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm
  #63   Report Post  
Old 24-10-2003, 12:02 AM
Malcolm Ogilvie
 
Posts: n/a
Default Getting rid of ground elder


In article , martin
writes
On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 18:01:00 +0100, Kay Easton
wrote:

In article , martin
writes
On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 17:28:14 +0100, Malcolm Ogilvie
wrote:


The scope of the ban is in
http://www.parliament.the-stationery...990/cmhansrd/1
990-10-25/Writtens-1.html
"Giant Hogweed
Mrs. Margaret Ewing : To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and
Industry whether he will take steps to ban the import and sale of
seeds of Heracleum Mantegazzianum.

Mr. Sainsbury [holding answer 22 October 1990] : No. There are
currently no plans to ban the import or sale of seeds of Heracleum
Mantegazzianum.

However, under section 14(2) of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981,
it is an offence for any person to plant or to otherwise cause to grow
in the wild any plant which is included in part 2 of schedule 9 to the
Act. Giant hogweed (Heracleum Mantegazzianum) is listed in the
schedule."

Note the words "in the wild". Private gardens are not classed as "in
the wild".

Odd because it says quite clearly "garden" in
http://www.defra.gov.uk/paw/publications/law/5_1_7.htm

"NOTE: This offence is similar to the one relating to animals (section
14(1) though it only applies to plants on the list and not the
non-native plants generally. The latter would be impossible as
virtually every garden in the country is stocked with mainly
non-native plants"

And exactly where in that does it say that you cannot grow giant hogweed
in a private garden?


You are not allowed to grow giant hog weeds anywhere. That's the whole
point of the act.

The words "in the wild" are part of that clause and apply to plants in
Schedule 9, including Giant Hogweed.


Or that a garden is part of 'the wild'?


Would they use "garden" in the example if it didn't apply to gardens?


I think you are misunderstanding the bit that mentions gardens. It was
not an example but a qualification explaining why a blanket ban couldn't
be applied to non-native plants like it was for animals. Hence the
reference to animals. There is nothing in the act which prohibits anyone
growing Giant Hogweed *in their gardens* if they are so minded. They
must, however, take every precaution to prevent it escaping *into the
wild*.


--
Malcolm Ogilvie
  #64   Report Post  
Old 24-10-2003, 12:22 AM
martin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Getting rid of ground elder

On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 22:50:51 +0100, Malcolm Ogilvie
wrote:


In article , martin
writes
On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 18:01:00 +0100, Kay Easton
wrote:

In article , martin
writes
On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 17:28:14 +0100, Malcolm Ogilvie
wrote:


The scope of the ban is in
http://www.parliament.the-stationery...990/cmhansrd/1
990-10-25/Writtens-1.html
"Giant Hogweed
Mrs. Margaret Ewing : To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and
Industry whether he will take steps to ban the import and sale of
seeds of Heracleum Mantegazzianum.

Mr. Sainsbury [holding answer 22 October 1990] : No. There are
currently no plans to ban the import or sale of seeds of Heracleum
Mantegazzianum.

However, under section 14(2) of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981,
it is an offence for any person to plant or to otherwise cause to grow
in the wild any plant which is included in part 2 of schedule 9 to the
Act. Giant hogweed (Heracleum Mantegazzianum) is listed in the
schedule."

Note the words "in the wild". Private gardens are not classed as "in
the wild".

Odd because it says quite clearly "garden" in
http://www.defra.gov.uk/paw/publications/law/5_1_7.htm

"NOTE: This offence is similar to the one relating to animals (section
14(1) though it only applies to plants on the list and not the
non-native plants generally. The latter would be impossible as
virtually every garden in the country is stocked with mainly
non-native plants"

And exactly where in that does it say that you cannot grow giant hogweed
in a private garden?


You are not allowed to grow giant hog weeds anywhere. That's the whole
point of the act.

The words "in the wild" are part of that clause and apply to plants in
Schedule 9, including Giant Hogweed.


"in the wild" is not defined.



Or that a garden is part of 'the wild'?


Would they use "garden" in the example if it didn't apply to gardens?


I think you are misunderstanding the bit that mentions gardens.


that's possible it's also possible that you misunderstand it :-)

It was
not an example but a qualification explaining why a blanket ban couldn't
be applied to non-native plants like it was for animals.


"14(1) though it only applies to plants on the list and not the
non-native plants generally."

Not quite, it applies to the plants on the list

Hence the
reference to animals. There is nothing in the act which prohibits anyone
growing Giant Hogweed *in their gardens* if they are so minded. They
must, however, take every precaution to prevent it escaping *into the
wild*.


Only common sense and the fear of blisters? :-)

If you google search hard enough and long enough you will find a DEFRA
..pdf file AFAIR that explains what action and against whom is to be
taken against those growing Giant Hog weed. In the case of private
individuals growing it, who refuse to remove it, a civil action may be
taken against them by the local authority. I'd guess that this doesn't
happen very often. In all other cases a public body is responsible and
the assumption is that they will take necessary action to remove
plants.

If you look at the list of prosecutions, there are so few for any sort
of a Wildlife and Countryside Act offense, it makes you wonder why
they waste their time passing this sort of legislation.
--
Martin
  #65   Report Post  
Old 24-10-2003, 01:02 AM
Janet Baraclough
 
Posts: n/a
Default Getting rid of ground elder

The message
from Jaques d'Altrades contains these words:

The message
from Janet Baraclough contains these words:


Covering ground with black plastic, or carpet, to clean ground of
serious perennial weeds like GE, requires that all light is excluded.
Holes in the plastic let light in, shoots will emerge through them and
photosynthesise to feed and multiply the roots below. I see no point
mulching on top of a non-degradable or incredibly slow degrading
soil-barrier such as plastic or carpet.


Oh, I can. One of my friends had a plot of almost virgin clay, covered
in rank and weedy weeds. He covered it with throwouts from the
greengrocer for months, then capped it with bales of straw and old
carpet on top of that, all soaked during the construction with the
contents of his netty.


Then he covered the lot with thick plack polythene and left it for two
years. The ground is free of weeds, even the seeds having been cooked in
the initial composting, and the worms turned it all into good deep
friable loam.


I agree, that way round works well. But I read JT's proposal for the
bulbs (and description of her veg bed's failed mulch) as plastic or
carpet on the soil first and mulch on top of that...maybe I
misinterpreted her.
Janet.


  #66   Report Post  
Old 24-10-2003, 08:32 AM
Martin Brown
 
Posts: n/a
Default Getting rid of ground elder

In message , Janet Tweedy
writes
In article , Bob Hobden
writes

Roundup would and does work,


I've sprayed mine with roundup for the last three years but I have to
do it every year as there's always some degree of grow back......


There will be. There is a lot of mass and stored energy in the tuberous
roots. You have to dig most of it out after the glyphosate has taken
effect.

That way you don't get any regrowth from small bits that snap off.

If you insist on doing it all chemically it takes excessive amounts.

Regards,
--
Martin Brown
  #67   Report Post  
Old 24-10-2003, 08:32 AM
Martin Brown
 
Posts: n/a
Default Getting rid of ground elder

In message , Nick Maclaren
writes

In article ,
Janet Tweedy writes:
|
| How disappointing ......... I thought the thread was referring to a
| solution on "getting rid of ground elder"!
|
| I don't think it matters what you douse the shoots or roots in, from
| napalm to undiluted acid. The things will still rear their healthy heads
| in the spring.


You can actually kill it off by repeated strimming for an entire season
provided that you never let any of its leaves see the light of day. It
doesn't grow at all well in close cropped lawns even when endemic under
hedges.

Well, I have done it in one year, using no chemicals, and using
that patch to the full :-)

I dug it over and removed as much as I could stand, and planted
potatoes. I dug up stray bits where I saw them. When I dug up
the potatoes, the ground was clear. Of course, the dry summer did
help - ground elder dislikes drought even more than potatoes do.

If someone can tell me how to get rid of bindweed ....


Same sort of way in a sandy soil. Weedkill, dig and sieve. Trouble with
bindweed is that there are so many seeds in the soil waiting to
germinate

I never had much trouble with the low growing pink form on clay soil. I
let some grow. The vigorous white climbing one is a menace though.

Regards,
--
Martin Brown
  #69   Report Post  
Old 24-10-2003, 06:42 PM
Steve Harris
 
Posts: n/a
Default Getting rid of ground elder

In article ,
(Martin Brown) wrote:

You can actually kill it off by repeated strimming for an entire
season


I think it depends to some extent on your conditions. Here, with dry,
sandy soil, determined assaults with glyphosate and later hoeing has
seen of my GE. In contrast, sycamore, ivy, bramble and bindweed are much
more problematic.

Steve Harris - Cheltenham - Real address steve AT netservs DOT com
  #70   Report Post  
Old 24-10-2003, 07:32 PM
Kay Easton
 
Posts: n/a
Default Getting rid of ground elder

In article , martin
writes

If you google search hard enough and long enough you will find a DEFRA
.pdf file AFAIR that explains what action and against whom is to be
taken against those growing Giant Hog weed. In the case of private
individuals growing it, who refuse to remove it, a civil action may be
taken against them by the local authority.


That is if they are allowing it to be released into the wild.

--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm


  #71   Report Post  
Old 24-10-2003, 07:32 PM
Kay Easton
 
Posts: n/a
Default Getting rid of ground elder

In article , Steve
Harris writes
In article ,
(Kay Easton) wrote:

allowing to escape into the
wild.


So if you had it in your garden, it seeded and the seeds blew out of
your garden into an area the was legally "the wild" you would commit an
offence?


Yes, that's my reading of the Act.

If you were growing it, it would make sense to remove the flower heads
before they set seed. Disposal then becomes a bit of a problem, so I
guess you'd have to make sure you kept them on your property.
--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm
  #72   Report Post  
Old 25-10-2003, 11:02 AM
martin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Getting rid of ground elder

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 18:23:44 +0100, Kay Easton
wrote:

In article , martin
writes

If you google search hard enough and long enough you will find a DEFRA
.pdf file AFAIR that explains what action and against whom is to be
taken against those growing Giant Hog weed. In the case of private
individuals growing it, who refuse to remove it, a civil action may be
taken against them by the local authority.


That is if they are allowing it to be released into the wild.


No!
--
Martin
  #73   Report Post  
Old 25-10-2003, 12:22 PM
Malcolm Ogilvie
 
Posts: n/a
Default Getting rid of ground elder


In article , martin
writes
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 18:23:44 +0100, Kay Easton
wrote:

In article , martin
writes

If you google search hard enough and long enough you will find a DEFRA
.pdf file AFAIR that explains what action and against whom is to be
taken against those growing Giant Hog weed. In the case of private
individuals growing it, who refuse to remove it, a civil action may be
taken against them by the local authority.


That is if they are allowing it to be released into the wild.


No!


Yes!

Please read the Act and the commentary again:

Here is the Act:

"Section 14(2)
It is an offence for a person to plant or otherwise cause to grow
in the wild any plant on Schedule 9 (Part 2)"

The words "in the wild" refer to everything in that clause.

And here is the Commentary

"NOTE: This offence is similar to the one relating to animals (section
14(1) though it only applies to plants on the list and not the
non-native plants generally. The latter would be impossible as virtually
every garden in the country is stocked with mainly non-native plants."

In order to understand what this is about, it is necessary to read
Section 14(1), which states:

"It is an offence for a person to release or allow to escape into the
wild any animal which is of a kind not normally resident in and is not a
regular visitor to Great Britain in a wild state or is included in Part
I of Schedule 9.

The Commentary is making the point that although it is practicable to
make it an offence to release *any* non-native animals into the wild, it
would be completely impracticable to make it an offence for people to
plant or release into the wild any non-native plants because their
gardens are stocked with them and releases and escapes happen all the
time. That is the only reason that gardens are referred to. They are not
being referred to specifically with regard to plants on the list but
with regard to *all* non-native plants making a comparison with the law
on non-native animals.

Thus if you take the Act and the Commentary together, they state that
the offence is "to plant or otherwise cause to grow *in the wild* any
plant on Schedule 9, part 2". It is *not* an offence to have those
plants in your garden. You must, though, prevent them escaping into the
wild, something which does not apply to any other non-native plant
though it does apply to all non-native animals.

--
Malcolm Ogilvie
  #74   Report Post  
Old 25-10-2003, 01:02 PM
martin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Getting rid of ground elder

On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 11:05:22 +0100, Malcolm Ogilvie
wrote:


In article , martin
writes
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 18:23:44 +0100, Kay Easton
wrote:

In article , martin
writes

If you google search hard enough and long enough you will find a DEFRA
.pdf file AFAIR that explains what action and against whom is to be
taken against those growing Giant Hog weed. In the case of private
individuals growing it, who refuse to remove it, a civil action may be
taken against them by the local authority.

That is if they are allowing it to be released into the wild.


No!


Yes!

Please read the Act and the commentary again:

Here is the Act:

"Section 14(2)
It is an offence for a person to plant or otherwise cause to grow
in the wild any plant on Schedule 9 (Part 2)"


I think the problem is that the plant part was tacked onto an animal
act. Releasing into the wild has a clear meaning with animals and a
not so clear meaning with plants.

Can you give me the links to the whole act and it's various
amendments.

Do many people cultivate hog weed in Uk gardens?
--
Martin
  #75   Report Post  
Old 25-10-2003, 01:02 PM
Kay Easton
 
Posts: n/a
Default Getting rid of ground elder

In article , martin
writes
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 18:23:44 +0100, Kay Easton
wrote:

In article , martin
writes

If you google search hard enough and long enough you will find a DEFRA
.pdf file AFAIR that explains what action and against whom is to be
taken against those growing Giant Hog weed. In the case of private
individuals growing it, who refuse to remove it, a civil action may be
taken against them by the local authority.


That is if they are allowing it to be released into the wild.


No!


I beg your pardon, but yes. From the DEFRA site:

'4. Under section 14 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, it can be
an
offence to plant or grow certain specified plants in the wild (see
Schedule
9 of
the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981), including Giant Hogweed and
Japanese Knotweed. Problems involving these plants can be referred to
the
local authority for the area where those weeds are growing as some local
authorities have by-laws controlling these plants. There is no statutory
requirement for landowners to remove these plants from their property.
Further information about non-native weeds species can be obtained from
Defra’s European Wildlife Division at Bristol (Tel: 0117 372 6154)'

In case you missed it: THERE IS NO STATUTORY REQUIREMENT FOR LANDOWNERS
TO REMOVE THESE PLANTS FROM THEIR PROPERTY

--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm
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