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#1
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Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
During the floods of last week, Thames water sewage plants couldn't
cope...and the backlog of untreated sewage filled the pipes, until it burst up and out of the drains... right into our back garden. The result was 3 days of 6in deep sewage filled water covering a large expanse of lawn and patio. Luckily none got in the house, but it is the garden that I am concerned about. After 3 days, the residue of sewage remained (the water soaked away), and 1 week later I am stil waiting for the "professional" clean-up of this toxic stuff. Question: Will the sewage adversely affect the lawn, or the Apple tree (eaters), or the large clematis that it soaked? If this is not a bad thing... will the "clean-up" with powerful detergents do more harm than good? Help? James |
#2
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Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
In article ,
James Collings wrote: During the floods of last week, Thames water sewage plants couldn't cope...and the backlog of untreated sewage filled the pipes, until it burst up and out of the drains... right into our back garden. The result was 3 days of 6in deep sewage filled water covering a large expanse of lawn and patio. Luckily none got in the house, but it is the garden that I am concerned about. After 3 days, the residue of sewage remained (the water soaked away), and 1 week later I am stil waiting for the "professional" clean-up of this toxic stuff. Question: Will the sewage adversely affect the lawn, or the Apple tree (eaters), or the large clematis that it soaked? If this is not a bad thing... will the "clean-up" with powerful detergents do more harm than good? If it is domestic sewage, and you don't use too many of the most toxic household chemicals, then it will do little harm. Effectively, it will break down as the weather warms up and be a general fertilisation. You may well get localised damage from burning and smothering, but probably no more. There is a significant chance that the clean-up will do massive damage, depending on what chemicals and techniques they use. I have no expertise here, but I would be VERY cautious before allowing such a thing to be done to my garden - even for free. Why do you think that it is toxic? Human excrement isn't particularly toxic, even if you do eat at MacDonalds. Regards, Nick Maclaren, University of Cambridge Computing Service, New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email: Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679 |
#3
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Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
Nick Maclaren wrote in message ... In article , James Collings wrote: During the floods of last week, Thames water sewage plants couldn't cope...and the backlog of untreated sewage filled the pipes, until it burst up and out of the drains... right into our back garden. The result was 3 days of 6in deep sewage filled water covering a large expanse of lawn and patio. Luckily none got in the house, but it is the garden that I am concerned about. After 3 days, the residue of sewage remained (the water soaked away), and 1 week later I am stil waiting for the "professional" clean-up of this toxic stuff. Question: Will the sewage adversely affect the lawn, or the Apple tree (eaters), or the large clematis that it soaked? If this is not a bad thing... will the "clean-up" with powerful detergents do more harm than good? If it is domestic sewage, and you don't use too many of the most toxic household chemicals, then it will do little harm. Effectively, it will break down as the weather warms up and be a general fertilisation. You may well get localised damage from burning and smothering, but probably no more. Mmm. I can't say I'd fancy any salads or strawberries off that ground for a year or two. There is a significant chance that the clean-up will do massive damage, depending on what chemicals and techniques they use. I have no expertise here, but I would be VERY cautious before allowing such a thing to be done to my garden - even for free. How about the flooding itself, as opposed to the sewage? 3 days sounds like probably too little to have killed off many of the roots, but I don't know. Why do you think that it is toxic? Human excrement isn't particularly toxic, even if you do eat at MacDonalds. Toxic maybe isn' the word I'd use, but aren't there a variety of parasites & diseases present in raw sewage? -- Anton |
#4
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Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
In article ,
anton wrote: Mmm. I can't say I'd fancy any salads or strawberries off that ground for a year or two. I assume that you eat nothing but hydroponically grown salads? Not doing so for a month or two is rational, but a year or two isn't. How about the flooding itself, as opposed to the sewage? 3 days sounds like probably too little to have killed off many of the roots, but I don't know. It could have killed some, especially if the deposited material has obstructed draining. But that is no worse than flooding by river water. And there is nothing that can be done about that, except that having the clean-up squad compress the ground will make a bad situation worse. Toxic maybe isn' the word I'd use, but aren't there a variety of parasites & diseases present in raw sewage? Not usually. Where do you think they would come from? If the people aren't infected, then there won't be such things. This is the UK in 2002, not where I grew up (and where that concern WAS justified). In practice, there are likely to be a fair number of borderline organisms (e.g. salmonella), but almost all will be destroyed very quickly by oxygen and decomposition processes. The only things that it is worth worrying about are ones with resistant spores etc., and those are less likely in human sewage than in domestic and wild animal excrement. Regards, Nick Maclaren, University of Cambridge Computing Service, New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email: Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679 |
#6
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Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
Victoria Clare wrote:
I think that the apple tree and clematis would be delighted with the unexpected treat, but that a cleanup of the lawn to remove any unpleasant flotsam might be worth having if there was a lot of it. I would probably just give the lawn a once-over with a stiff brush once things had dried out, myself, but there is the psychological factor: if the OP will be sitting out on that lawn next summer sipping tea, he might well feel happier about it if it had the detergent treatment. Hi I have to agree with Nick. Our septic tank drains out into the river but if the river is high the tank backs up and floods into the garden, where we also have an eating apple tree. However, our views are perhaps a little different from some people's. We have a farm and in one way or another are in *muck* every day. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the sewage having been on the garden and we've never suffered any damage as a result. With the wet weather we're having at the moment it's more than likely that it will soon be broken down and washed through the ground. It's not a toxic hazard although I wouldn't recommend letting children play in it!! At the end of the day, it's an organic material and, like Nick said, the cleaning that has been offered will do far more damage that the original fertilising it's had. Personally, I would leave it alone and not worry about eating apples from the tree. Jaqy |
#7
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Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
"MC Emily" wrote in
: I have to agree with Nick. Our septic tank drains out into the river but if the river is high the tank backs up and floods into the garden, where we also have an eating apple tree. However, our views are perhaps a little different from some people's. We have a farm and in one way or another are in *muck* every day. Well, sewage I don't mind too much. But old tampons, sanitary towels, condoms, cotton buds, etc, though no doubt not particularly dangerous, strike me as not a lot of fun to gather and dispose of. As you have a septic tank, you probably don't flush that stuff, but the detritus from not-long-enough long sea outfalls suggests a lot of people do. The stuff that comes ashore at Instow beach from sewage has included syringes before now. If that is an issue in this case, I can see why one might consider the offer of a free cleanup. Victoria |
#8
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Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
"MC Emily" wrote in message
... Victoria Clare wrote: I would probably just give the lawn a once-over with a stiff brush once things had dried out, myself, but there is the psychological factor: if the OP will be sitting out on that lawn next summer sipping tea, he might well feel happier about it if it had the detergent treatment. ....... it will soon be broken down and washed through the ground. It's not a toxic hazard although I wouldn't recommend letting children play in it!! At the end of the day, it's an organic material and, like Nick said, the cleaning that has been offered will do far more damage that the original fertilising it's had. Personally, I would leave it alone and not worry about eating apples from the tree. Jaqy As the OP I thought I join in again (I dunno.. you post a question, pop out to London for the day.. come back and find a nice long thread already developed :-)) The request for a clean-up comes because the sewage covered the whole patio area upto the back door and our daughter (3yo) play house. I didn't want her going out into it... but with Snow imminent she was going to want to be out there building snowmen etc... (and you don't want to be rolling up a snowman and find out that he has "ready made" buttons, eyes, and nose!!!!). So the clean up was required. Secondly I was concerned about the "burning" issue on the plants. Composted materials (old manure, waste from a septic tank etc) I know is excellent on plants.. but in its "raw" form (still recognisable!) I wondered if it might be a bit "strong". I am heartened by your answers so far. Normally I too wouldn't be bothered about a clean-up (being only 1 generation from farmers!) but with our little one I wanted to be safe for her... hence the question that the detergents will be harmful to the plants... I guess (based on the replies), that it might be, but that it is a risk I will have to take. Thanks for the help, to date. Subsequent question. Once the clean-up occurs (this weekend I am now told), Is there anything I can "give" to the grass, tree, clemetis to help them cope? (bearing in mind the time of year etc...) James |
#9
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Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
Why do you think that it is toxic? Human excrement isn't particularly
toxic, even if you do eat at MacDonalds. But what if it gets into an open wound? I read that the Viet Cong used human faeces as a very effective poison against the Americans. Art |
#10
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Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
In article ,
James Collings wrote: The request for a clean-up comes because the sewage covered the whole patio area upto the back door and our daughter (3yo) play house. I didn't want her going out into it... but with Snow imminent she was going to want to be out there building snowmen etc... (and you don't want to be rolling up a snowman and find out that he has "ready made" buttons, eyes, and nose!!!!). So the clean up was required. I agree that it is a bit distasteful! An immediately cleanup would certainly help with that, but even a short period of warm, wet weather will have started most of the sewage breaking down. Secondly I was concerned about the "burning" issue on the plants. Composted materials (old manure, waste from a septic tank etc) I know is excellent on plants.. but in its "raw" form (still recognisable!) I wondered if it might be a bit "strong". I am heartened by your answers so far. Normally I too wouldn't be bothered about a clean-up (being only 1 generation from farmers!) but with our little one I wanted to be safe for her... hence the question that the detergents will be harmful to the plants... I guess (based on the replies), that it might be, but that it is a risk I will have to take. Also be a bit careful with regard to your daughter. That sort of detergent can be both corrosive (i.e. it might cause permanent blindness if it gets in her eyes) and fairly toxic. It depends what they use. For comparison, typical washing up liquid is quite safe as shampoo or even drunk in small quantities, but machine washing powder/liquid is not. In your position, I might (or might not) get some of the garden cleaned up (or might do it myself), but would definitely not allow industrial detergents to be used. That might be prejudice, but I don't like that sort of thing. Regards, Nick Maclaren, University of Cambridge Computing Service, New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email: Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679 |
#11
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Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
In article ,
Carol Russell wrote: Why do you think that it is toxic? Human excrement isn't particularly toxic, even if you do eat at MacDonalds. But what if it gets into an open wound? I read that the Viet Cong used human faeces as a very effective poison against the Americans. Don't believe half of what you read! As with animal excrement, getting it in an open wound can cause infection - but not all that much more than earth and probably no more than industrial detergents. Regards, Nick Maclaren, University of Cambridge Computing Service, New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email: Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679 |
#12
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Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
Victoria Clare wrote:
Well, sewage I don't mind too much. But old tampons, sanitary towels, condoms, cotton buds, etc, though no doubt not particularly dangerous, strike me as not a lot of fun to gather and dispose of. I have to agree with you here, Victoria, but personally I would rather collect these 'by hand', suitably gloved of course (!), and leave it at that, rather than have an army of people trampling of my sodden lawn spraying god-knows-what around. Of course, some people's stomachs are stronger than others also!! As you have a septic tank, you probably don't flush that stuff, but the detritus from not-long-enough long sea outfalls suggests a lot of people do. The stuff that comes ashore at Instow beach from sewage has included syringes before now. You're right, we don't flush that kind of stuff and I can sympathise with you as regards short sea outfalls as I come from Blackpool. You don't get beaches much filthier than that!!! The smell in summer's wonderful, isn't it ;o) If that is an issue in this case, I can see why one might consider the offer of a free cleanup. I think a compromise might be to have the council, or whoever, collect what solids they can and leave it at that. The OP was concerned about plant damage and I think much more than that would result in definite damage. Jaqy |
#13
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Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
James Collings wrote:
As the OP I thought I join in again (I dunno.. you post a question, pop out to London for the day.. come back and find a nice long thread already developed :-)) LOL. It must be the subject matter that's attracting the attention!! The request for a clean-up comes because the sewage covered the whole patio area upto the back door and our daughter (3yo) play house. I didn't want her going out into it... but with Snow imminent she was going to want to be out there building snowmen etc... (and you don't want to be rolling up a snowman and find out that he has "ready made" buttons, eyes, and nose!!!!). So the clean up was required. Since your worried about your plants also, you might be better to hose the patio down and then spray with a *good* disinfectant, such as Zal Perax II, at the appropriate rate. This will do less damage than detergents. I understand that your daughter will want to play in the snow, my kids used to love the snow, and if you clean and disinfect the patio she will have an area that you know if 'safe'. As for the garden itself, I would stay off it as much as possible. It's probably sodden anyway and will poach easily. Have the council pick up the solids and then leave it. Anything else that's left will very quickly disappear. Secondly I was concerned about the "burning" issue on the plants. Composted materials (old manure, waste from a septic tank etc) I know is excellent on plants.. but in its "raw" form (still recognisable!) I wondered if it might be a bit "strong". Even septic tanks have 'new' stuff in them!! We've had recognisable stuff coming out many times and, to be honest, that part of the garden has the greenest grass!!! I am heartened by your answers so far. Good. I don't think this is going to turn out to be a huge disaster. In fact, you might find that your grass will be much improved by it. Normally I too wouldn't be bothered about a clean-up (being only 1 generation from farmers!) but with our little one I wanted to be safe for her... hence the question that the detergents will be harmful to the plants... I guess (based on the replies), that it might be, but that it is a risk I will have to take. Not necessarily. Think about what I've said above about the patio area. You *can* have the best of both worlds here - a 'safe' place for your daughter and snowmen and a fertilised garden! Once the clean-up occurs (this weekend I am now told), Is there anything I can "give" to the grass, tree, clemetis to help them cope? (bearing in mind the time of year etc...) Hopefully, this won't be necessary ) Jaqy |
#14
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Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
Not usually. Where do you think they would come from? If the people
aren't infected, then there won't be such things. This is the UK in 2002, not where I grew up (and where that concern WAS justified). The toilets on planes visiting Heathrow are emptied there and go into the Thames Water system. The sewage therefore MAY contain organisms from anywhere in the world. Howard Neil |
#15
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Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
In article , James Collings
writes During the floods of last week, Thames water sewage plants couldn't cope...and the backlog of untreated sewage filled the pipes, until it burst up and out of the drains... right into our back garden. The result was 3 days of 6in deep sewage filled water covering a large expanse of lawn and patio. Luckily none got in the house, but it is the garden that I am concerned about. After 3 days, the residue of sewage remained (the water soaked away), and 1 week later I am stil waiting for the "professional" clean-up of this toxic stuff. Question: Will the sewage adversely affect the lawn, or the Apple tree (eaters), or the large clematis that it soaked? If this is not a bad thing... will the "clean-up" with powerful detergents do more harm than good? Help? James There are various sites on the web with (human) health info. http://www. fao.org/docrep/W5367E/w5367e04.htm is concerned with the deliberate use of waste water in agriculture, and gives survival times for the bugs (most a month, but one brand of intestinal nematode / roundworm 'many months'). http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/elcosh/docs...3/d000283.html tells you to use protective equipment if you work in sewage plants, and what you will get if you don't. I was going to pass on anecdotal evidence about sewage workers (and farmers) having acquired immunity but http://www.spokanecounty.org/healt h/EHS/brochures/biologicalHazards.htm claims the lower infection rates in experience sewage workers is job experience rather than immunity. -- A. G. McDowell |
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