"len garden" wrote in message
...
g'day amanda,

On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 04:15:31 GMT, "FlowerGirl"
wrote:


"len garden" wrote in message
.. .
snipped

With all due respect Len, its a very different world today than when you
were small or when your own kids were small.
Just think of the reidiculous insurance claims for a start.
AND I do know of kids from my Dad's era who died from plant poisoning
(castor bean no less), so its not really a generational thing.

i wasn't saying kids or anyone never suffered even fataly, but you
still can't cotton woll them with any more guarantees that something
won't happen, it still comes back to parenting. just recently now we
ahve ahd 2 deaths involving contained water one in a pool with the
obligatory required fence the otehr in a horse trough in the middle of
a horse enclosure (these unfortunate people sadly also lost another
child 3 years ago the same way).

Which is a heartbreaking case ... but Len, I think you'll find the number of
backyard pool drownings has decreased since fencing became mandatory - and
sorry, but I don't think this is "cotton balling" children.


and not that long ago another child who apparently had an epileptic
fit in a pool swimming unsupervised.

you still can't get away from making poarents responsible and take
away the road to litigation. litigation is not saving paind or death
sad to say.

snipped

I see you point Len, but bare in mind, people take a lot of offence if
their
parenting skills are questioned.
Childcare was probably not a major option in your young day - its a
necesary
thing in today's world and a parent has a right to expect that the
environment is safe if they are paying for a person to caer for their
child
in that environment.

of course i would expect subjective parents to take offense what other
defense ahve they got for not being objective and that does not take
from the debate, just because someone doesn't like the truth under the
morale "if the shoe fits wear it" then they beter get their act into
gear and become responsible then there may be some hope that some of
those unfortunate incidences will cease.

Wait on a minute - I don't think you are actually being very objective in
your assumption that its the fault of "parents of today" and seemingly not
admitting any mistakes from previous generations.
I personally would have to say the standard of parenting in today's world is
actually an improvement on the mistakes made in the past myself. ... but
that's my opinion. ... and I myself have a mother who should be sainted as
the best mother of all time (she's my Mummy so I get to say it!) and a
father who I wouldn't trust to look after either of my children safely in a
pink fit, whilst otherwise being an OK Dad (he just doesn't *get* that 2
year olds don't think like adults).


all that is ahppening amanda is the regulators are bringing in
bamdaides in an effort to save trauma, lets get back to the difficult
course of "cause & effect" and find the real cause to issues not
target and effect and try and fix it from that end.

take pool fences just this summer there have been at least 4 deaths
still and that is only the ones we here about, so pool fences aren't
working because they are a band aide, without too much trouble at all
these pool incicences can all be bouhgt home to bad parenting.


Care to share some facts and figures here Len? From what I've read,
mandatory fencing has dramatically reduced the numbers drownings of toddlers
in the 0-5 y age bracket. Fencing does work when used properly and in
conjunction with parental supervision.
Nobody is saying that this means you don't need parental supervision, given
that a child can drown in under 2 minutes, that's not a large time span and
you also cannot convince me that parents in the past watched their children
24 hour a day without missing 2 minutes of each child's waking activities...
even as the most wonderful parent in the world, I must occasionally go to
the toilet and trust while I am there, that my 2.5 yo son has not caused
himself or his sister any harm. If I had an unfenced pool at my back door,
I think *that* would be bad parenting

I think you might also find that the number of backyard pools has increased
dramatically in the past 50 years as well and this would have implications
on the numbers of drownings you would expect.


snipped

Again Len - not wanting to have a go at you, but do you perhaps think
that
a) there are considerably more cars on the road now than back in the
olden
days? and b) that kids still did stupid things back then but it might not
have made the evening news. From what I know from my parents and
grandparents era, it wasn't uncommon to have had a sibling die from an
accident of some sort .... or an illness that hadn't been described.

i know that amanda but the regulator doesn't seem to know that neither
do the educators or the parents or the standard of road safety
education would be elevated at the same level as the road traffic and
population grows. not wait for something to hapen then band aid it.

Len - believe it or not, we do teach our children about road safety. It may
interest you to know that a child's field of vision is not as great as an
adult due to their different head shape. Adults have a lot more peripheral
vision.

...and while we are on road safety, let me tell you about the 60ish year old,
fit looking man who, whilst chatting on his mobile phone, stepped out in
front of my car last Friday when he decided to cross against the light, just
as my light went green ... there wasn't even a break in conversation as he
meandered across 4 lanes of traffic while we all politely waited for him! I
suspect he was so engrossed in his conversation that he failed to realise
that the red flashing stick-man on the light facing him meant he should
probably stop at the kerb.
:P


don't where you r parents/grandparents lived but i was a kid and we
lost none of our friends to accidents or poisonings.

Really... bully for your lot. Perhaps you didn't grow up on a farm or you
were just lucky.
Perhaps we could start with my father's cousin who died from castor bean
poisoning, another cousin who we now suspect died from an allergic reaction,
Dad's friend who died in a motorcycle accident, Grandma's cousin who died in
a farm accident, FIL's sister who died from malnutrition, and a friend's
great grandmother who drowned in the farm dam. My own DH grew up on a farm
and frankly had some fairly scary accidents as a child.... and his parents
were excellent parents.
All of these families were *good* families and good parents who had some
very unlucky circumstances (well - not FIL's parents - they were atrocious,
but he survived them and turned out to be one of the best fathers of his
generation).


if i was amanda i wouldn't be too keen on signing off on anything like
that nowadays it smells of scapegoating.

Sorry - its the kindy that has to sign off, and I'm not officially
offering
an expert opinion so I'm not signing.

Its interesting to get this "generational" discussion though.

Amanda

thanks for the cross post i have never been in this sort of discussion
before, we as grandparents & parents would hate to lose any of our
children/grandchildren to any of those preventable accicents that is
why we are so high on proactivity and prevention.

I agree - and this is absolutely no different to what we are doing as
"today's parents".

....and I must admit I had thought this conversation might have lead to a few
more suggestions of plants to watch out for and not so much a discussion of
values and parenting whe nI cross-posted it! It is interesting though.

this wait until the
horse has bolted before closing the gate system we seem to have is
reactive and so far isn't preventive long term because the real causes
are treated as sacred cows. we are not allowed to point the finger at
bad parenting.

Only if you are equally pointing it in your own generation's direction.
There will always be "good" and "bad" parents ... and what one person thinks
is "good parenting" may be totally unthinkable to another parent in a
different generation.
Goodness knows how often I've smiled an nodded my way through "parenting
advice" from well-meaning grannies who suggest things they think would help,
but which could actually harm my kids.


i am not highlighting those with special needs they need special
circumstances, the cases i have mentioned apart from one where totaly
preventable if the parents where dispatching their responsibilities
responsibly.

....and since special needs children are included in the same schools and
centres as "normal" kids, we need to make sure they are safe as well as the
"normal" kids. If a centre hangs out its shingle and charges a fee to care
for children, one could reasonably expect it to have a safe environment and
have qualified child carers available for the children so that the parent
can expect that their child is safe while there.
..... much like one expects a hire car not to have serious and potentially
dangerous mechanical defects, charter boats not to have leaky hulls and
surgeons to have some sort of qualification in medicine, and some idea of
what they are doing before performing operations.


my heart goes out to the grandparents (my status) and the parents of
that family that lost 2 toddlers in 3 years in same like circumstances
on the same property.

Yes indeed - a very sad story.
Amanda