On Jul 6, 12:02 pm, "ontheroad" wrote:
"Rupert" wrote in message

oups.com...



On Jul 5, 10:11 pm, "ontheroad" wrote:
"Rupert" wrote in message

roups.com...

On Jul 5, 5:02 pm, "Dutch" wrote:

snip...

Wrong shit-for-brains, we've tried the rational approach with you,

Not that I recall. I got totally irrational abuse from the very first
post in reply to me. Are you suggesting that you actually dohave
rational objections to what I said? I mean, do you actually agree with
Rick that no-one in our society cares about animals in the slightest?

=========================
Again, a proven liar. Show where ihavemade this claim, killer.

If I've misinterpreted your position, I apologize. I've made a good
faith effort to interpret it correctly. You've certainly stated that
*I* don't care about animals.

========================
Not in any meaningful way. your continued actions prove that.


That's a joke.

Perhaps youcouldtell me who does, then. Perhaps I shouldhavebeen a bit clearer about what I mean by
"someone in our society". Maybe if someone dropped out of the consumer
society and grew all their own food and made their own electricity,
you'd finally admit that they care about animals to some extent.

===========================
Anyone who doesn't cause the massive UNNECESSARY deaths like you do.

"Massive"? I think there's reasonable doubt about that. You've never
made any reasonable attempt to give an estimate.

The
problem is neither
I, nor you, will really hear about them because they aren't tooting their
own horn all over the world
from from the usenet pulpit.

They may or may not exist. So these people, who have become self-
sufficient in food and electricity in order to stop supporting harm to
animals, are the only people who really care about animals. Is that
right?

The lie you continue to spew is the one that
just because you don't eat meat
means you care about animals more than someone who does. It's a lie.
Proven over and over again by you're
own actions.


It means I care more about animals than most people, in my view. I
don't really care what you think about it. I think that what you think
about it is a joke.

By "someone in our society" I meant someone who participates at some
level in the processes in which just about everyone, with virtually no
exceptions, participates. So, what exactly would it take for you to
admit that I care about animals? And can you point me to anyone who
does?

===============================
First off, I think you protest too much. Having to tell everyone how much
you care kinda proves my point
that you are really doing nothing. If you truly cared, you wouldn'thaveto
try to convince us, huh?


I'm not interested in trying to convince you. You were the one who
brought the subject up. I think that your opinion about the matter is
a joke, and I'm bothering to say so. You can think what you like.







If not, then what's your objection to what I said?

Can you just identify one position I hold which is irrational and
maybe point me in the direction of all the overwhelming rational
arguments you've raised against it.

======================
veganism causes no/less/fewer deaths just because the diet portion
contains
no meat.
Completely unsupported by you, and everyother usenet vegan, hypocrite...

Well, as far as I'm concerned that's not true. I've given you some
data in the past about how much crop production is required to feed
the United States according to its current eating habits. I think it
is reasonable to conclude that if everyone went vegan that would be a
change for the better, not necessarily the only way to achieve a
substantial change for the better.

==========================
And the point you always ignore is that those same peoplecouldchange to
non-crop fed beef.
The pasture and range is already there. ALL beef cattle already spend most
of their lives there.
The production through large feedlots operations is a method developed after
WWII. If you really
wanted a difference, and fewer crops grown, you'd promote meats raised that
way. But you won't,
because your religion is based on your simple rule for your simple mind,
'eat no meat.'

I'm not convinced that I could make a substantial improvement by
switching to grass-fed beef. You've still yet to tell me where I can
buy this mythical grass-fed beef with zero crop inputs. I think that
the current contribution to animal suffering made by my diet is very
small. I don't think I need to worry about fine details like whether I
may be able to make some slight improvement by switching to some form
of grass-fed beef. Your diet may be just as good as mine. My diet is a
lot better than most people's. And I do a lot of activism to try and
improve conditions for animals as well. The idea that I don't care is
a joke.

So, you're contention
that if everyone went vegan is just another unsupported claim. Replacing
the crops that cattle eat would
not be a one-to-one conversion. Feed crops are not the same as people
edible crops, nor are they grown the
same. Our foods require more intensive operations in power and inputs.

We would be growing fewer crops if everyone went vegan. I've
adequately supported this statement, you haven't cast any serious
doubt on it. Some forms of grass-fed beef might be a reasonable
approach as well, I've never denied that.

Plus, what 'vegan' diet is always
better? All bananas? You'd claim they are vegan, but I'd say they are
not. Too much killing and environmental
damage goes into them. Plus, they depend on the petro-chemical industry to
ship them all over the world. That's
yet another of your problems. You've never once compared the foods you do
eat to each other. You won't.


All right, well, you have a different idea of what counts as a
reasonable standard than I do. Fine, you can hold yourself to that
standard if you want. But in actual fact you don't care about animals
in the slightest, you just want to try and argue that I don't for some
reason. Well, I think it's a joke, and I'm not particularly interested
in what you think. So there you go.

I don't think it is reasonable to say that this assertion of mine is "completely unsupported". If you
really want to contest it I think you should make some effort to give
some reason why we should doubt it. On the other hand, if you're just
saying that there may be some non-vegan diets which are at least as
good, on that point we are agreed.

====================
Progress.....

I've explicitly said I agreed with this point time and time again.
I've never denied it.

So you admit that your privious claims that being vegan means
you've killed
fewer animal was a lie?


Sigh. There are two different claims. One is "For most Westerners,
making the transition to a vegan diet would be a big improvement." The
other is "Every vegan diet is better than every conceivable non-vegan
diet". I make the first claim but not the second. You constantly
conflate these two claims, I keep pointing out that they are different
claims but it still hasn't sunk in.




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