Tim Tompkins wrote:

With the term Broad Spectrum I mean an insecticide that is NON specific,
and contact rather than systemic.

I see. There's the rub. As I mentioned, I use Orthenex, which is NOT a
contact insecticide, but a systemic insecticide, which is why I still have
tons of earthworms and ladybugs. Cygon II is also a systemic insectide,
but may have an element of contact insecticide in it, I am not sure. You
can read about the different Ortho products at Ortho.com.



Products such as Orthene are contact insecticides and in my experience
and opinion have no systemic or residual characteristics. Orthene and the
like are the common products on the shelves of garden centers that most of
us are exposed to on a regular basis.

I have actually never seen Orthene, but do see Orthenex and Immunox Plus
on a regular basis.


The more expensive products, at first glance at least,
such as Immunox, are usually not offered in the retail trade due to the
high initial purchase cost.

Not so, I'm afraid. Immunox (just fungicide) and Immunox Plus (fungicide
plus systemic insecticide) is sold at all the box stores and garden
centers. I do not find Immunox Plus to be nearly as effective for
blackspot as Orthenex.

I personally don't care for the food based systemic that are applied to
the soil as they often destroy the beneficial organisms in the soil, such
as earth worms.

I have never used this stuff, which I have seen only in granular form.

I DO use
preventative measures for fungal diseases, as a rule these diseases can
not be eradicated once they infect a plant, you can halt the spread but
once the damage is done there is no mechanism to remove the black spots,
rust, mildew etc.

Actually, there are two products that will stop blackspot on the plant
once it is present. They both start with an "M" one is Manzeb, I forget
the other. I have used it and it works, but I prefer to use preventive
measures.



Over all, my style is to observe, and be informed about the pathogens
that
affect our roses. A bit of
knowledge is, in my opinion much more affective than a bottle of what
ever
can be sprayed.

The products such as Immunox, Avid, Banner Max that are available through
specialty mail order
are more cost affective, offer better performance and have fewer draw
backs
than the general
purpose products from the garden center.

I also don't keep rose varieties that have disease problems such as
Mister
Lincoln and Touch of Class.
These two are mildew magnets and tend to encourage the disease in the
rest
of the garden. I love
Mister Lincoln, it was my first rose, it just has too many drawbacks, the
same for Touch of Class.

The bottom line is, 'observation and information' are the most affective
tools we have.

Tim

"Shiva" wrote in message

news:aHlwYXRpYQ==.6ac5547c259222a3735116ca857c7569 @1049567828.cotse.net...
Tim Tompkins wrote:[...]

Thanks for a thoughtful and concise answer, Tim. I will try the Cygon
in a
small spray bottle when the thrips first appear. By the way, Orthenex
and
Immunox plus now contain a miticide, and Cygon's (I think it is
technically Cygon II)label says that it does too.


Please keep in mind that there are MANY beneficial insects that are
also
killed by the broad spectrum insecticides. I prefer NOT to douse the
garden as it eliminated the beneficial.

Perhaps you can help me understand how you are using the term "broad
spectrum." I like to use liquid (i.e., not granular) SYSTEMIC
insecticide,
which in my understanding kills only insects that bite or suck the
juices
of the roses. The opposite, sometimes referred to as CONTACT
insecticides
apparently kill any insect that comes into contact with it. If I use
the
former, and not the latter, I do not expect to kill beneficials,
because
by definition, beneficials do not chew, pierce, suck on, or otherwise
bother the plants. In my experience, this works fairly well, since I
still
have ladybugs and many other types of insects in my garden. I
understand "broad spectrum" to mean killing a wide variety of insects.
Do
you make no distinction between systemic and contact insecticides?
Thank
you.