A lot of snipping...sorry if you lose track...

(Larry Harrell) wrote in message . com...
(Dan Winings) wrote in message ...
On 1 Jan 2003 11:41:40 -0800, (Larry Harrell)
wrote:

mega-snippage of stuff about "natural fires" with nothing about the
serious explosion of "unnatural" catastrophic fires plaguing the West


I propose to thin stands to near historical densities and implement
burning programs in the fire prone areas of the West. The key is water
and there are just too many trees for the available water. Drought
resistance and fire resistance go hand and hand in determining the
overall health of our ecosystems. We have spent untold millions of
dollars fighting wildfires and only treating a symptom of the overall
problem. Last year we saw the funneling of dollars away from solutions
to the problem. Our efforts should mimic natural processes and
carefully restore necessary drought and fire resistance to our
ecosystems.

Without drought resistance, there will be no future old growth in much
of the West (and even the present old growth in these "droughty"
areas). That much is clear and not really addressed by the
"preservationist" community.

Many people also do not see the after effects of large burns, with the
ever-present bark beetles and burned cambium layers taking up to 5
years to kill off burn survivors.

"Mother Nature" will most surely "balance" some of these ecosystems in
ways that us humans won't like. That is currently happening all across
America, from the South, to the Rocky Mtns and all the way to
California and the Black Hills. It cannot be ignored and deemed as
"natural".

Larry eco-forestry rules!

And just to make things even more confusing

.... should we really be talking about "natural" or "historical" or
"adaptations", when the factors (e.g. climate...and we can forget the
argument about whether the change is man-made or not, just recognize
that it is changing) that brought about these forest conditions and
adaptations have ceased to exist and show no signs of returning in the
forseeable future?

As far as mimicking natural disturbance regimes or processes... good
luck. From what I've read and listened to, it can't be done. What
natural process does thinning a stand, loading the trees onto a truck
and shipping them to the next county mimic? Vertical and horizontal
stand structure _maybe_. Then what? Soil chemistry? No. Nutrient
cycling? No. And on and on and on. Too many "No's" to pretend
you're mimicking anything natural. I've heard horror stories of
foresters trying to defend this paradigm in front of the public. I
agree, you've got to do what you can, just don't be so silly as to
think you're mimicking anything natural, and don't dare try to sell it
to anyone as such.
Caveat Venditor.

Scott forestry is mind-boggling!

(Scott Murphy) wrote in message . com...

And just to make things even more confusing

... should we really be talking about "natural" or "historical" or
"adaptations", when the factors (e.g. climate...and we can forget the
argument about whether the change is man-made or not, just recognize
that it is changing) that brought about these forest conditions and
adaptations have ceased to exist and show no signs of returning in the
forseeable future?

As far as mimicking natural disturbance regimes or processes... good
luck. From what I've read and listened to, it can't be done. What
natural process does thinning a stand, loading the trees onto a truck
and shipping them to the next county mimic? Vertical and horizontal
stand structure _maybe_. Then what? Soil chemistry? No. Nutrient
cycling? No. And on and on and on. Too many "No's" to pretend
you're mimicking anything natural. I've heard horror stories of
foresters trying to defend this paradigm in front of the public. I
agree, you've got to do what you can, just don't be so silly as to
think you're mimicking anything natural, and don't dare try to sell it
to anyone as such.
Caveat Venditor.

Scott forestry is mind-boggling!

I guess you got me there. There is no mimicking. After a one-time
entry to reduce both the excess live and dead fuels, you forget
mimicry and just burn the sucka.....over and over and over.....until
your superior "leave trees" have become old growth. Of course this is
based on ponderosa pine forests. Your forests may vary.

Larry controlled burns are fun!

some other guy wrote:
(Larry Harrell) wrote in message

It has been proven that giant sequoia's and coastal redwood's do great and
start to reproduce AFTER a fire. Not only does the fire pop the cones but
it lays down the all important ash which stimulates growth. But I know you
know all that Larry.

Apparently you don't know "all that". 8^) But you do know a lot
more than some.

Giant Sequoias and Coast Redwoods do NOT have serotinous cones (cones
which "pop open" after a fire). GS seeds need mineral soil to
germinate and survive. Redwoods have an easier time at reproducing
from seed, though.

You are right about ash being a very important component in our
forests. Wood ash has nearly all the important macro-nutrients, as
well as a wide variety of micro-nutrients. Wood ash is also beneficial
in adjusting the pH of the forest soils, compensating for the acidic
pine needles which helps control competing vegetation under pines.

Larry eco-forestry rules!

Check your silvics books:

http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/si.../giganteum.htm

"Giant sequoias have serotinous cones which, at maturity, may remain
attached to the stems without opening to release seeds. For 20 years
or more, cones may retain viable seeds and continue to photosynthesize
and grow, their peduncles producing annual rings that can be used to
determine cone age (16,36)."

But if you read further you will come across discussion of other
vectors of dispersal, namely the critters.

As far as seedling development goes, Larry is bang on:

"Seed dormancy is not evident in giant sequoia, so surviving seeds
germinate as soon as conditions are favorable (17). Germination is
epigeal. The most significant requirement for germination is an
adequate supply of moisture and protection of the seed from
desiccation. This is best provided by moist, friable mineral soil that
covers the seed to a depth of 1 cm (0.4 in), and that is partially
shaded to reduce surface drying."

Bang on again with the redwoods:

"Redwood cones dry readily under conditions of low humidity and
quickly release their seeds with slight shaking."

I'm told that Vol.1 of the Silvics of North America is out of print...
any idea where I might track one down?

Scott forestry is mind-boggling

(Scott Murphy) wrote in message . com...
Check your silvics books:

http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/si.../giganteum.htm

"Giant sequoias have serotinous cones which, at maturity, may remain
attached to the stems without opening to release seeds. For 20 years
or more, cones may retain viable seeds and continue to photosynthesize
and grow, their peduncles producing annual rings that can be used to
determine cone age (16,36)."

But if you read further you will come across discussion of other
vectors of dispersal, namely the critters.


Well, then, I will take your word on that and stand corrected. Once
you stop learning stuff, you might as well die G. I always see the
Sequoia cones on the ground, already opened. I did find some closed
ones and tried to use the seed but the seeds seemed to be unviable
8^(

As far as seedling development goes, Larry is bang on:

"Seed dormancy is not evident in giant sequoia, so surviving seeds
germinate as soon as conditions are favorable (17). Germination is
epigeal. The most significant requirement for germination is an
adequate supply of moisture and protection of the seed from
desiccation. This is best provided by moist, friable mineral soil that
covers the seed to a depth of 1 cm (0.4 in), and that is partially
shaded to reduce surface drying."

Bang on again with the redwoods:

"Redwood cones dry readily under conditions of low humidity and
quickly release their seeds with slight shaking."

I'm told that Vol.1 of the Silvics of North America is out of print...
any idea where I might track one down?

Scott forestry is mind-boggling

I think your best bet would be a used bookstore in a town with a
forestry college, Scott.

Larry