In article , "Don Staples"
wrote:

"Jan Flora" wrote in message
...
In article , mike hagen
wrote:

They've grown these trees locally. We're paying 69 cents/tree for
2100 trees. Sounds high to me, but what do I know?

Are they containerized seedlings? May be about right if they are.

They're bareroot 1 year old. They're healthy (I was a botany major), except
for some mold from the paper that seperates every 100 seedlings in the box.
It sure doesn't look like damping-off fungus to me, but my SO is a cynic and
thinks it's bad juju.

So we've planted, geeze, lots. Did 600 today, in a nice drizzle that
turned off to
a steady rain. Perfect planting weather. We have 900 trees left to plant,
but all
of our neices & nephews are riding in the local rodeo tomorrow, so we'll plant
early, go to the rodeo, them come home and plant some more. The SO & I can plant
about 150/hour, not working hard. (We're both approaching our middle years, so
our backs can only take so much in a day.)

The tool that Chris made out of an old leaf spring, part of an old
handyman handle
and part of a shovel handle is just a dandy planting bar. The cutting edge
looks like
an ulu, with a tang that runs up into the handle. It works. (The neighbor
who used a
dibble last year had all of his trees heave out of the ground with the
frost this
spring. But his place is a swamp anyway.)

We're having trouble hiring a forester down here, to evaluate all of this
replanting
stuff that landowners are doing. The US Forest Circus doesn't seem too
concerned.
I'm going to phone the professors up at the university and ask for a
master's student
in silviculture who needs a project or a summer internship, to come down
and ride
herd on us, and tell us how to do it right/better. (Oh, don't know if I
mentioned: the
SO sits on the local SWCD board. That's who needs a forester, to ride herd
on all of
us cowboy/cooperator/landowners.)

Jan

Jan Flora wrote:
In article , "Don Staples"
wrote:


"Jan Flora" wrote in message
...

In article , mike hagen
wrote:


They've grown these trees locally. We're paying 69 cents/tree for

2100 trees. Sounds high to me, but what do I know?


Are they containerized seedlings? May be about right if they are.


They're bareroot 1 year old. They're healthy (I was a botany major), except
for some mold from the paper that seperates every 100 seedlings in the box.
It sure doesn't look like damping-off fungus to me, but my SO is a cynic and
thinks it's bad juju.

So we've planted, geeze, lots. Did 600 today, in a nice drizzle that
turned off to
a steady rain. Perfect planting weather. We have 900 trees left to plant,
but all
of our neices & nephews are riding in the local rodeo tomorrow, so we'll plant
early, go to the rodeo, them come home and plant some more. The SO & I can plant
about 150/hour, not working hard. (We're both approaching our middle years, so
our backs can only take so much in a day.)

The tool that Chris made out of an old leaf spring, part of an old
handyman handle
and part of a shovel handle is just a dandy planting bar. The cutting edge
looks like
an ulu, with a tang that runs up into the handle. It works. (The neighbor
who used a
dibble last year had all of his trees heave out of the ground with the
frost this
spring. But his place is a swamp anyway.)

We're having trouble hiring a forester down here, to evaluate all of this
replanting
stuff that landowners are doing. The US Forest Circus doesn't seem too
concerned.
I'm going to phone the professors up at the university and ask for a
master's student
in silviculture who needs a project or a summer internship, to come down
and ride
herd on us, and tell us how to do it right/better. (Oh, don't know if I
mentioned: the
SO sits on the local SWCD board. That's who needs a forester, to ride herd
on all of
us cowboy/cooperator/landowners.)

Jan

Sounds like you're doing great. Planting trees is one of the harder
things to do physically with the best long term personal satisfaction -
but that's just my view.

So where are you that you have a rodeo?

In article , mike hagen
wrote:

Jan Flora wrote:
In article , "Don Staples"
wrote:


"Jan Flora" wrote in message
...

In article , mike hagen
wrote:

[...]

Sounds like you're doing great. Planting trees is one of the harder
things to do physically with the best long term personal satisfaction -
but that's just my view.

It's amazingly hard work, for something that looks so easy! But it's
still easier than building fence : ) (We just built 1000' of new fence,
using railroad ties for fence posts.)


So where are you that you have a rodeo?

Ninilchik, on the Kenai Peninsula. The 4th of July weekend is always a
rodeo weekend there at the fair grounds.

Jan

Hey Jan,
I planted 5 acres of Long leaf containerized seedling and it took
3 people 2 days. They were at a density of 400 /acre and so that comes
out to be 333/man*day. These were just people I suckered into helping
me. I think our Mexican crews that planted 800/acre could do about
1500/ person per Day with hoedads. They are getting payed per tree.
When we did 333 per day I told my buddy my back was real sore and he
said he was glad I said it first cause his was too. We are 39 and 34
yrs old. My son didnt complain because he is 19 yrs old and we would
have started heaping BS stories on him of how hard we could work at
19, he was smart enough to stay quiet. We used 3 plug planters and
they worked great, did yall use homemade stuff. I thought you said
that but I might have read it wrong. It sure if fun after you get it
done. Now you can start watching them GROW!

In article ,
(John Ponder) wrote:

Hey Jan,
I planted 5 acres of Long leaf containerized seedling and it took
3 people 2 days. They were at a density of 400 /acre and so that comes
out to be 333/man*day. These were just people I suckered into helping
me. I think our Mexican crews that planted 800/acre could do about
1500/ person per Day with hoedads. They are getting payed per tree.
When we did 333 per day I told my buddy my back was real sore and he
said he was glad I said it first cause his was too. We are 39 and 34
yrs old. My son didnt complain because he is 19 yrs old and we would
have started heaping BS stories on him of how hard we could work at
19, he was smart enough to stay quiet. We used 3 plug planters and
they worked great, did yall use homemade stuff. I thought you said
that but I might have read it wrong. It sure if fun after you get it
done. Now you can start watching them GROW!

Yep, we're using a homemade planting bar. My SO is a cowboy/blacksmith,
so he makes his own tools.

We're planting 300/acre, with 7 acres total. But our forester never walked
the land after we logged, so he didn't see that we had well over 100 trees
per acre left after logging. Big trees. So we're having to plant a little tight,
to fit these goddammits all in. We aren't allowed to have any left over, when
we're done. (Forest Circus bullshit.)

The SO and I are both 47 years old. We've been doing 600/day without too
much trouble, except for the foot race to the pain pills, when we get home
at night.

The truth be told, the SO and I have a pretty good time working out there
in the woods, planting the little goddammits. It sure beats a lot of other
things we could be doing : )

Jan

Jan Flora wrote:
In article ,
(John Ponder) wrote:


Hey Jan,
I planted 5 acres of Long leaf containerized seedling and it took
3 people 2 days. They were at a density of 400 /acre and so that comes
out to be 333/man*day. These were just people I suckered into helping
me. I think our Mexican crews that planted 800/acre could do about
1500/ person per Day with hoedads. They are getting payed per tree.
When we did 333 per day I told my buddy my back was real sore and he
said he was glad I said it first cause his was too. We are 39 and 34
yrs old. My son didnt complain because he is 19 yrs old and we would
have started heaping BS stories on him of how hard we could work at
19, he was smart enough to stay quiet. We used 3 plug planters and
they worked great, did yall use homemade stuff. I thought you said
that but I might have read it wrong. It sure if fun after you get it
done. Now you can start watching them GROW!


Yep, we're using a homemade planting bar. My SO is a cowboy/blacksmith,
so he makes his own tools.

We're planting 300/acre, with 7 acres total. But our forester never walked
the land after we logged, so he didn't see that we had well over 100 trees
per acre left after logging. Big trees. So we're having to plant a little tight,
to fit these goddammits all in. We aren't allowed to have any left over, when
we're done. (Forest Circus bullshit.)

The SO and I are both 47 years old. We've been doing 600/day without too
much trouble, except for the foot race to the pain pills, when we get home
at night.

The truth be told, the SO and I have a pretty good time working out there
in the woods, planting the little goddammits. It sure beats a lot of other
things we could be doing : )

Jan
Like they say, that which doesn't kill us makes us stronger. There are
limits though! (Think of cheese) Sorry - I'm an old tree planter myself.
Paid my way through forest engineering school many years ago. Our group
worked the Northern California and Oregon coast in the 70's. Our
mexicans were by far the best planters, often hitting 2000 on good days.
Us gringos could hit 1500 consistently after we had been in practice for
several weeks and occasionally went above that. Fresh guys in off the
street were dying at 600. These were containerized DF and RW plugs, and
we planted with either dbibbles or hoedads depending on the contract.
The ground varied from "cat ground" to steep high leads. The worst was
going into units which had lots of naturals left and deep slash - you'd
carry your trees forever hunting planting spots. Those were always a
mistake of the planting forester.

Why are you planting to FS specs on your own land? Accounting for
naturals is part of the job. Unless they're damaged, that's where your
genetic diversity is retained.

In article , mike hagen
wrote:

Jan Flora wrote:
In article ,
(John Ponder) wrote:


[...]

The truth be told, the SO and I have a pretty good time working out there
in the woods, planting the little goddammits. It sure beats a lot of other
things we could be doing : )

Jan
Like they say, that which doesn't kill us makes us stronger. There are
limits though! (Think of cheese) Sorry - I'm an old tree planter myself.
Paid my way through forest engineering school many years ago. Our group
worked the Northern California and Oregon coast in the 70's. Our
mexicans were by far the best planters, often hitting 2000 on good days.
Us gringos could hit 1500 consistently after we had been in practice for
several weeks and occasionally went above that. Fresh guys in off the
street were dying at 600. These were containerized DF and RW plugs, and
we planted with either dbibbles or hoedads depending on the contract.
The ground varied from "cat ground" to steep high leads. The worst was
going into units which had lots of naturals left and deep slash - you'd
carry your trees forever hunting planting spots. Those were always a
mistake of the planting forester.

Why are you planting to FS specs on your own land? Accounting for
naturals is part of the job. Unless they're damaged, that's where your
genetic diversity is retained.

We're planting to FS specs because we're in the FIP program. Our local
SWCD supervisors all signed up, because all of us had dead timber, and
wanted to see if this program could/should be recommended to cooperators
and area landowners. The FS guys seems to finally be getting on step,
figuring out how to administer this program. It's been a shakey start.

I used to work around Mexican crews who were pruning wine grapes and
apple trees. Those guys are flat incredible. I've done a lot of large home
apple orchards, and there's *no way* I could ever approach the speed
and accuracy of their work.

We groomed our little woodlot with a brush rake on a farm tractor and
with the root rake on our old stringblade D-7 before planting. It helped a
lot to gather the slash into burn piles, so we had pretty clear planting areas.
(The guys had tremendous burn piles lit, while they logged with a big
excavator. Stacked the trees & slash as they went.)

Gee, just hearing the term "high lead" makes me tired these days.

Jan

We're planting to FS specs because we're in the FIP program. Our local
SWCD supervisors all signed up, because all of us had dead timber, and
wanted to see if this program could/should be recommended to cooperators
and area landowners. The FS guys seems to finally be getting on step,
figuring out how to administer this program. It's been a shakey start.

I used to work around Mexican crews who were pruning wine grapes and
apple trees. Those guys are flat incredible. I've done a lot of large home
apple orchards, and there's *no way* I could ever approach the speed
and accuracy of their work.

We groomed our little woodlot with a brush rake on a farm tractor and
with the root rake on our old stringblade D-7 before planting. It helped a
lot to gather the slash into burn piles, so we had pretty clear planting areas.
(The guys had tremendous burn piles lit, while they logged with a big
excavator. Stacked the trees & slash as they went.)

Gee, just hearing the term "high lead" makes me tired these days.

Jan

FIP were discontinued or renamed might be the better word to FPP at
least way down here in Dixie. Is your FIP a 50% cost share? That is
the way ours used to work with a max on $60/acre for site prep and $40
/acre for seedling planting. Did yall jujst write the bill to yourself
to get all the cost share available. That is the way I do it when I do
the work myself. We have a Federal program down here called a WHIP and
it pays 75% of planting cost. It s awesome. Our establishment of trees
under those programs were under $40/acre out of pocket. There is
really some good programs out there to help individuals plant their
land

We're planting to FS specs because we're in the FIP program. Our local
SWCD supervisors all signed up, because all of us had dead timber, and
wanted to see if this program could/should be recommended to cooperators
and area landowners. The FS guys seems to finally be getting on step,
figuring out how to administer this program. It's been a shakey start.

I used to work around Mexican crews who were pruning wine grapes and
apple trees. Those guys are flat incredible. I've done a lot of large home
apple orchards, and there's *no way* I could ever approach the speed
and accuracy of their work.

We groomed our little woodlot with a brush rake on a farm tractor and
with the root rake on our old stringblade D-7 before planting. It helped a
lot to gather the slash into burn piles, so we had pretty clear planting areas.
(The guys had tremendous burn piles lit, while they logged with a big
excavator. Stacked the trees & slash as they went.)

Gee, just hearing the term "high lead" makes me tired these days.

Jan

FIP were discontinued or renamed might be the better word to FPP at
least way down here in Dixie. Is your FIP a 50% cost share? That is
the way ours used to work with a max on $60/acre for site prep and $40
/acre for seedling planting. Did yall jujst write the bill to yourself
to get all the cost share available. That is the way I do it when I do
the work myself. We have a Federal program down here called a WHIP and
it pays 75% of planting cost. It s awesome. Our establishment of trees
under those programs were under $40/acre out of pocket. There is
really some good programs out there to help individuals plant their
land

In article ,
(John Ponder) wrote:


We're planting to FS specs because we're in the FIP program. Our local
SWCD supervisors all signed up, because all of us had dead timber, and
wanted to see if this program could/should be recommended to cooperators
and area landowners. The FS guys seems to finally be getting on step,
figuring out how to administer this program. It's been a shakey start.

I used to work around Mexican crews who were pruning wine grapes and
apple trees. Those guys are flat incredible. I've done a lot of large home
apple orchards, and there's *no way* I could ever approach the speed
and accuracy of their work.

We groomed our little woodlot with a brush rake on a farm tractor and
with the root rake on our old stringblade D-7 before planting. It helped a
lot to gather the slash into burn piles, so we had pretty clear
planting areas.
(The guys had tremendous burn piles lit, while they logged with a big
excavator. Stacked the trees & slash as they went.)

Gee, just hearing the term "high lead" makes me tired these days.

Jan

FIP were discontinued or renamed might be the better word to FPP at
least way down here in Dixie. Is your FIP a 50% cost share? That is
the way ours used to work with a max on $60/acre for site prep and $40
/acre for seedling planting. Did yall jujst write the bill to yourself
to get all the cost share available. That is the way I do it when I do
the work myself. We have a Federal program down here called a WHIP and
it pays 75% of planting cost. It s awesome. Our establishment of trees
under those programs were under $40/acre out of pocket. There is
really some good programs out there to help individuals plant their
land

What does FPP stand for? I think we're still in the FIP program. We signed
up early. I know details in the program have changed in the last year, but
I'm under the impression that we're using that program.

We paid $125/hour for a 375 Cat hoe to do the logging (most of the trees
were windfalls or standing dead -- he pulled stumps, too), and pile them to
burn. The logging cost us $4600 out of pocket, not counting our own equipment,
diesel or labor.

We skidded the saw logs out with the D-7, while Don was logging.
(I'm the choker setter... *sigh* as I can't run the string-blade without
either puking all the cable out on the ground and running over it, or
two-blocking it -- I grew up on hydraulic dozers; my SO grew up on
stringblades. I can run it slowly. He can run it full-tilt.)

WHIP is wildlife incentive, int'it? The folks have kept large areas of this
property in wildlife habitat, since proving up on the homestead (1951),
mostly because they couldn't afford to feed the family beef, so they ate
moose and sold their beef. We're sort of rotation-logging the property,
because we winter loads of cow moose. They need timber to hide in for
shelter and hidey-holes for calving. (The black bears come in to eat the
fuzzy little moose calves, as soon as they hit the ground.) There's no
market for this dead timber anymore (we got $3/ton for saw logs
about 5 years ago and $2/bdu for chips). The moose are worth *way*
more than the timber, to us, at the moment.

As soon as you open up the canopy, the baby trees grow in huge leaps
and bounds here. It's amazing, considering our cold soil temps and short
growing season. I guess the long daylight and good summer rainfall is
the kicker.

Jan

Jan