Cheers for your feedback Len, I never would've thought about ants in regards
to this matter of aphids on roses but in a way it makes sense and seems to
offer a weakpoint that can be exploited - im all for natural biowarfare

"gardenlen" wrote in message
sorry farm1,

you maybe a bit off the mark there, ants not only have a symbiotic
relationship with sacle insects but also with mealy bugs and aphids
pretty much any thript. and aphids do secrete a sugary substance
that
the ants use in their food chain.

Well I can only say that I have never seen an ant near the aphids on
my roses. And my garden has multiple varieties of ants. Perhaps the
wrens clear the aphids before the ants have a chance to find the
aphids.

the aphid is flightless and can't crawl over the ground so the only
way it gets around is by being carried.

Wrong Len. Aphids do grow wings. See
http://www.princeton.edu/~dstern/AphidResearch.htm and
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releas...-apc051805.php

"Dave -Turner" wrote in message
...
So if i destroy the ants nests at the bases of my roses bushes that
would
have a significant effect on the aphid populations (by allowing
other
predatory insects in that the ants wouldve otherwise kept away) ?

Probably not. All gardens have ants of lots of varieties. You need
to do something about the aphids.

"gardenlen" wrote in message
that is how it has worked for me, aslo i don't think the aphids last
long without their farmers.

Not true Len. There are many people who have aphids and never have
ants. The garden books all talk about aphids but NEVER mention
getting rid of ants as a cure for getting rid of aphids.

In my own garden I have never, ever seen an ant on my rose bushes but
every spring I get aphids. The birds deal with them.

once the ants have gone simply hose off the aphids with a strong
spray
of water if you use an atomiser bottle add a bit of detergent.
moving
the ants on is the lynch pin

Len that makes no sense. Ants aren't the problem only (according to
you) a consequence. Aphids are the problem.

If you hose a rose bush with both aphids and ants on it and can get
enough pressure to blow off the aphids then you would also blow off
the ants. Aphids have their snout buried in the bark of the rose.
Ants do not have the same sort of grip as the aphids. The only
problem with blowing off the aphids is that they will come back as
they will not all be removed and they breed up fast. Killing the ants
will not control the aphids.

Dave -Turner wrote:
So if i destroy the ants nests at the bases of my roses bushes that would
have a significant effect on the aphid populations (by allowing other
predatory insects in that the ants wouldve otherwise kept away) ?

Do not use poisons to do this as they could also kill your wanted
predatory insects {:-).
When you remove the ants, you might also find other insects now start
attacking the rose bushes because the ants also fed on them {:-)

I just settle for culling the aphids with a strong hose spray each time
I water, or splashing/spraying them with soapy water (left over
windscreen wash water).

well i guess farm1 you can believe the book which mainly only deal
with chemicals to control things and never look for the root cause.

but i have had ants and aphids together many times as have many other
gardeners.

i am on many other forums where there are horticulturists helping
people and they give the same advice that i have.



On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 14:06:14 +1000, "Farm1" please@askifyouwannaknow
wrote:

snipped
With peace and brightest of blessings,

len

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.gardenlen.com

"gardenlen" wrote in message
...
well i guess farm1 you can believe the book which mainly only deal
with chemicals to control things and never look for the root cause.

but i have had ants and aphids together many times as have many other
gardeners.


I get heaps of aphids on my roses, and even more on my nasturtiums
underneath. So I've given up with the nasturtiums - too hard to keep free
of aphids. I've always had ants around the area as well, and I knew they
farmed the aphids, but it never occurred to me to remove the ants. I'll try
that this year thanks.

Jen

"Farm1" please@askifyouwannaknow wrote in message
...
"gardenlen" wrote in message
that is how it has worked for me, aslo i don't think the aphids last
long without their farmers.


Len that makes no sense. Ants aren't the problem only (according to
you) a consequence. Aphids are the problem.

If you hose a rose bush with both aphids and ants on it and can get
enough pressure to blow off the aphids then you would also blow off
the ants. Aphids have their snout buried in the bark of the rose.
Ants do not have the same sort of grip as the aphids. The only
problem with blowing off the aphids is that they will come back as
they will not all be removed and they breed up fast. Killing the ants
will not control the aphids.


But the ants help the aphids! If you get rid of the ants at least they
won't have their helpers and they'll be easier to control. Sounds logical
to me.

Jen

that's about the best you can do jen,

i as a rule only recommend ations that i have done myself, not into
plagerising passages out of books.

and too many times over the years the question has been asked by
gardeners who have tried every thing except flame throwers and the
aphids keep coming back, yup because as quick as you spray them the
ants bring new ones back.

get rid of the ants and then hose the aphids away when i've had them
this has worked, i got roses in pots here got no ants in the pots and
got no aphids.


On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 08:41:22 GMT, "Jen"
wrote:

snipped
With peace and brightest of blessings,

len

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.gardenlen.com

Speaking of mongrel ants who bring nasties to things (like trees), how can
you slaughter large numbers of them? I have a larger problem, with ants and
sticky stuff and trees/bushes slowly struggling against them.


--
ant
Don't try to email me;
I'm borrowing the spammer du jour's addy

"gardenlen" wrote in message

well i guess farm1 you can believe the book which mainly only deal
with chemicals to control things and never look for the root cause.

I didn't mention any book that called for chemicals. You are making
an incorrect assumption but then you've made a number of incorrect
assumtions in this discussion.

You have also claimed (and presumably believe) that aphids are
flighless and must be carried. Rose aphids certainly do have wings at
soem stage of the season so I assume that they can fly. You have also
written of ants farming "those thript type bugs". Aphids and thrips
are 2 different insects. You also say that you have "observed ants
harvesting aphids not only on roses but on other plants as well".
Ants don't "harvest" aphids but they may eat the honeydew. Rose
aphids don't live on other plants except perhaps pyracantha.

Ants are not the cause of aphids. Aphids may result in ants being on
the roses to get the exudate from the aphids as you describe, BUT
without the aphids being there in the first place, they wouldn't be on
the roses. You said yourself that ants do NOT damage or eat the roses
so destroying the ants is only a secondary consideration. If you get
rid of the aphids then the ants won't be on the roses because they
don't eat the rose.

but i have had ants and aphids together many times as have many
other
gardeners.

You assume that all aphids are the same. They arent' there are
4,000+varieties of aphids.

And Len, not so long ago you wrote:
""gardenlen" wrote in message
g'day jen,

i'm no rose grower, so probably can't help too much here, but the
new
home we bought had some roses in the garden, so in preperation for
pulling the garden out i just cut them all back to almost ground
level, and those plants loved it they are a mass of growth and
healthy
looking plants not the spindly yukky looking things that uninspired
me
even more about the plant.

i know you are supposed to thin them out and prune them to an open
vase shape, but hey without any water these plants look great. the
funny bit i reckon they may even put on their best show of flowers
next season.

oh i'm even taking them out of the garden and potting them and they
haven't looked back, treat 'em rough i say they'll love it.

You admit that you aren't a rose grower.

I am. I planted my first rose 35 years ago. I also stopped coutning
when I got to 108 roses in my garden. Since I stopped counting (and
there are more than 108 roses in my garden) I have planted more roses.
I also have seen pics of your last 2 gardens and looked at the new
pics of your current place. Not a rose bush in sight.

I have aphids each year and I DON'T have ants on my roses and never
have had ants on my roses. My aphids disappear as the biological
controls work

i am on many other forums where there are horticulturists helping
people and they give the same advice that i have.

They may say that if you get rid of the aphids then you will get rid
of the ants on your roses.

"Jen" wrote in message
"Farm1" please@askifyouwannaknow wrote in message
"gardenlen" wrote in message

that is how it has worked for me, aslo i don't think the aphids
last
long without their farmers.

Len that makes no sense. Ants aren't the problem only (according
to
you) a consequence. Aphids are the problem.

If you hose a rose bush with both aphids and ants on it and can
get
enough pressure to blow off the aphids then you would also blow
off
the ants. Aphids have their snout buried in the bark of the rose.
Ants do not have the same sort of grip as the aphids. The only
problem with blowing off the aphids is that they will come back as
they will not all be removed and they breed up fast. Killing the
ants
will not control the aphids.

But the ants help the aphids! If you get rid of the ants at least
they
won't have their helpers and they'll be easier to control. Sounds
logical
to me.

Well think about it a bit more and try reading what Len wrote. He
wrote "i don't think the aphids last long without their farmers".
Aphids will exist quite happily without ants. Mine do till the birds
kick in and start eating the aphids.

You have introduced a new thought over and above what Len said in that
you believe that you will control the aphids "easier" without the
ants.

That may or may not be so. If you don't have birds in your garden or
ladybirds/lacewings etc and you have to rely on chemicals then nuking
the ants before nuking the aphids MAY make it easier to control them,
but that is NOT what Len said.

Len thinks that aphids won't survive without ants. I went through all
my rose books today and not one of them mentions such a situation.
All mention aphids but not one mentions that aphids must be farmed by
ants in order to survive.

"Jen" wrote in message
"gardenlen" wrote in message

well i guess farm1 you can believe the book which mainly only deal
with chemicals to control things and never look for the root
cause.

but i have had ants and aphids together many times as have many
other
gardeners.


I get heaps of aphids on my roses, and even more on my nasturtiums
underneath. So I've given up with the nasturtiums - too hard to
keep free
of aphids.

But which of the 4,000+ species of aphids do you have on your
nasturtiums? You probably have the rose aphid on your roses but on
your nasturtiums.................?

"ant" wrote in message

Speaking of mongrel ants who bring nasties to things (like trees),
how can
you slaughter large numbers of them? I have a larger problem, with
ants and
sticky stuff and trees/bushes slowly struggling against them.

As Len (rightly) mentioned, the ants come for the sticky stuff. There
will be some sort of bug on your trees which is causing the sticky
exudate.

What sort of trees and do they have sooty mould? Sooty mould looks
just like black soot.

Farm1 wrote:
Ants don't "harvest" aphids but they may eat the honeydew. Rose
aphids don't live on other plants except perhaps pyracantha.

That's interesting, I didn't know that. I grow Basil inside, and sometimes
end up with horrible aphid infestations on it, nasty green ones. I always
assumed the sneaky buggers were coming up from the roses.

--
ant
Don't try to email me;
I'm borrowing the spammer du jour's addy