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#121
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Water restrictions and gardens
0tterbot wrote:
never mind the goss I just suspect that it is normal post-grad student did all the work and Prof getting all the glory scene. - i've read 3 permaculture books so far & i'm just not GETTING IT. what's the goss on that? :-) which ones? All it really is is bringing together some ideas in sustainable agriculture so you basically have a self sustaining block of land for a family. And perhaps sell/trade your surplus at the local market. Buy a block of land, establish vege garden, orchard, grazing, etc, etc so you are not forever mowing, ploughing, suffering major pest attack, dispensing chemicals, etc, etc afaict, it's all about slopes and windbreaks & planting stuff irrelevent to soil type etc, & the remainder is what i'd call "the bleeding obvious". What do you base the statement about soil type on? It isn't obvious to people who don't have a clue and haven't talked or looked at stuff before. who the hell needs a fire mandala? what am i missing?? I have absolutely no idea if your rubbish burns off better in a fire mandala or not. Just have a chuckle at the touchy-feely stuff earth spirit stuff and ignore it. |
#122
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Water restrictions and gardens
Chookie wrote:
I don't see why Sydney people wouldn't be able to put up with that, Umm, where are you gong to shit? And of course our decision-makers are often dills (don't get me started on Sartor or desalination!) so they're the ones who start talking about pinching the water from Tallowa etc. I think you will find that Sydney has been taking water from Tallowa for a long, long time. |
#123
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Water restrictions and gardens
0tterbot wrote:
personally, i don't think there's such a thing as "unviable" land in & of itself - The general adjective is farming and basically land meets this criteria when it can not be farmed in a sustainable way, i.e. you are generally degrading the land over time. Another definition of unviable is that the "farm" can not return a profit, which is also a reasonable definition. Although most unviable land is thought to be (for NSW) in the western division, there is some lands on the west of the dividing range that is also unviable. There are a number of farms that basically survive from collecting wild goats. |
#124
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Water restrictions and gardens
"Terryc" wrote in message
... 0tterbot wrote: never mind the goss I just suspect that it is normal post-grad student did all the work and Prof getting all the glory scene. - i've read 3 permaculture books so far & i'm just not GETTING IT. what's the goss on that? :-) which ones? most recently "permaculture two" (mollison) and prior to that two others which were so underwhelming i can't even think what they are called. and i'm not about to re-borrow them from the library in order to remind myself ;-) All it really is is bringing together some ideas in sustainable agriculture so you basically have a self sustaining block of land for a family. And perhaps sell/trade your surplus at the local market. Buy a block of land, establish vege garden, orchard, grazing, etc, etc so you are not forever mowing, ploughing, suffering major pest attack, dispensing chemicals, etc, etc ya, that all makes sense (the entire motivation goes into the "bleeding obvious" basket ;-). afaict, it's all about slopes and windbreaks & planting stuff irrelevent to soil type etc, & the remainder is what i'd call "the bleeding obvious". What do you base the statement about soil type on? the fact it was 100% never mentioned whatsoever in any of the books (and i do understand that "gardening" or "farming", as information-based concepts, aren't what the books are really about) - at all. in fact, the only physical aspect of the land they seemed interested in at all was SLOPE! i couldn't even find any references in any of them pertaining to flattish land! perhaps it's just mollison et al's appalling writing style. it was like the books had no beginning or end, it was all just bla. It isn't obvious to people who don't have a clue and haven't talked or looked at stuff before. i'm assuming that people would get a basic grasp of the process before they progress to permaculture (permaculture being so design-based) but again, such basic things are worth incorporating into a book on a concept which is supposed to be wholistic(???) similarly it occurred to me that what we call obvious in 2006 might have, in the 1970s, been temporarily forgotten or pushed to one side & had to be reintroduced by garden writers generally. certainly modern books & info are pretty different to 40 year old stuff in general. who the hell needs a fire mandala? what am i missing?? I have absolutely no idea if your rubbish burns off better in a fire mandala or not. the mandala's in perm two. i would not be able to tell you what it's for. in the cartoon there was a little bloke sitting with his campfire in the middle of his mandala. perhaps it is a way to have an illegal outdoor fire during summer, without anyone knowing? (and presumably with no risk of it getting out of control..?). Just have a chuckle at the touchy-feely stuff earth spirit stuff and ignore it. i just sort of feel robbed - as though i was supposed to have "aha!" moments reading about this marvellous movement but it was all babble, politics (and slopes and windbreaks ;-) and the intense and repetitive way mr mollison wants us all to CONTROL our land rather freaks me out. most of my property is regenerating bushland. big bill is evidently of the opinion i should sell most of it, as it is too big for me to CONTROL. i must have just wanted to have a whinge!! g kylie |
#125
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Water restrictions and gardens
"Farm1" please@askifyouwannaknow wrote in message
... "Chookie" wrote in message My letter on a related subject was published today. I am now awaiting the backlash from the anti-germ brigade. (Near the bottom of the page...) http://www.smh.com.au/letters/index....e#contentSwap2 I went to this site and couldn't find any letter relating to water or drought. Was I a day too late? ya, it was yesterday. chookie wrote that although running through the sprinkler is a thing of the past, that her wee boys can still dance in the greywater pumped onto the lawn. sweet :-) kylie |
#126
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Water restrictions and gardens
"Farm1" please@askifyouwannaknow wrote in message
... again, just because most of them don't rely on rainfall to make a living does not make the awareness any less acute. (snip) Well they know is a very, very limited sense. well, "know" is a word with various meanings. (and then there's the biblical sense! but let's not go there.) it really only sounds like you are cross with them because they experience the effects of drought too but don't suffer. should they somehow be _made_ to suffer like we suffer?! And that sense is that they are now talking of the need to get MORE water for Sydney. And taking it from further and further way, like the Shoalhaven River. The bloody Shoalhaven for God's sake! are you mistaking the iemma govt's machinations for what literally everyone in sydney wants? i'd hope not as i suspect they're even less popular in sydney than elsewhere. in fact, now i'm back in nsw they represent me as well, and i _still_ don't approve of them any more than anyone else does (i'm just glad to be out of the sodding a.c.t.). many people come up with many ideas concerning "what to do about" sydney. many of them are rubbish. rarely are they backed by a critical mass of sydneysiders. like chookie said, the presence of the dills does not mean everyone's a dill - otherwise all the countryfolk are clearfellers, fertiliser polluters, and dickheads, aren't they? the fact remains though that a city of 4 million people, and the biggest in the country, is an important place which one would rather not see turn completely to shit (and not least because the rest of us rely on them in many, many ways for the time being). And frankly I'm equally amazed at your inability to take on board refe rences given to enable you to do some research and that may challenge your generalisations (you can even access then online so don't even have to inconvenience yourself by going outside) . let's not be snarky. which references was i unable to take on board? the fact you referred me to two things, and i didn't reply specifically to those, doesn't mean much. i have an extremely long reading list & i'll get to it. much as i would love to magick books out of thin air, i can't do that. why am i not allowed to speak generally, but you're allowed not only to generalise wildly but also think your generalisations count for more? Really? I particulalry enjoyed the one about: "city peeps are generally better-educated and have a much broader view of the world, their world is just bigger than ours is" Such a generalisation really surprised me. clearly. you're having a great deal of trouble getting over it, i see. city people are, proportionately, better educated (this partly includes people who left rural areas _in order to receive_ more education not available in their area). not least because educational facilities tend to be concentrated in cities, where many small country towns don't even have a high school, never mind a tafe or a uni or any private adult ed. for example, amongst others: http://ofw.facs.gov.au/publications/wia/chapter6.html While retention rates for secondary school students, particularly girls, are increasing, these numbers differ when examined geographically. That is, students in remote and regional areas are more likely than those in cities to face problems of access and limited choice as they aim to complete their education. Residents of regional and remote Australia have consistently had lower rates of attendance in the non-compulsory years 11 and 12 of school and at non-school education institutions than city residents.5 Evidence from Haberkorn et. al. indicated that in 1996, average school attendance rates of 16 year olds in non-capital city Australia were below those for capital city Australia (76 per cent and 83 per cent respectively). Attendance rates had remained stable over time, increasing only 0.6 per cent across Australia between 1991 and 1996. However, in non-capital city areas, there was a decline of 0.6 per cent in this period.6 According to Collins et al., in 1996 rural girls were only five per cent less likely to complete school than urban girls, but the chances of rural boys completing school were 11 per cent less than for urban boys. Girls and boys in remote areas were both noticeably more unlikely to complete school than their urban counterparts: 19 per cent and 16 per cent respectively'.7 Haberkorn et. al. found a negative relationship between the proportion of 16 year olds in school and the degree of remoteness. However, some care needs to be taken in interpreting this as people aged 16 who grew up in remote areas may have left home to continue their education.8 I know I get to the Opera House more often than my city rels do now that the ballet dancer has ended her career (and they only went to see her anyway, not a range of things) and I am always amazed at how busy my city friend and rels are but how little they actually use the benefits of the city. The routine of daily living for them is much more restrictive on their lifestyle than it is for the country people I know. They go to more restaurants and movies but not to do anything useful in a cultural or educative sense - just much more social. Lots of talk but no meat. And when it comes to education, my (country born and bred and working) Mechanic has 2 degrees and he's not the only country person I know who has such surprising qualifications behind his rough exterior. I also get a particular kick out of the very traditonal sheep farmer I know who looks like a total hay seed and lives in the deep deep country but who has a PhD (thesis was on sheep). what has this to do with anything? how often your rellies go to the opera, or how many hicks you know with phds, is really not relevent to anything i said. if you cannot see the obviousness of a statement entailing 1: a literal truth (that city peeps are more likely to be better educated - they're also healthier & slimmer - do you want to argue about that too?) and 2: that the outside world is a great deal closer to, and interacted with, a person who lives in a very big, international city which contains every imaginable type of person from literally everywhere on earth, living cheek by jowl in every imaginable economic and family situation, then i really can't help you. if i want to fly to beirut or london or marrakesch tomorrow, i think i have to go to SYDNEY first, don't you? that's the literality of it. the figurative element is what is gained by meeting & working with & living amongst more people, with different experiences, and having further access to more of those people and experiences should one wish. i moved to the city from the country at 17 & believe you me, it was a real eye-opener. i make my claims from experience & in good faith, but even so, it's hardly worth arguing about. i'm NOT saying "the city is better" or "country people are all dumb" or anything LIKE that. i'm making some observations which you've decided to get completely off-side about, for absolutely NO reason i can fathom. what's the problem??! kylie |
#127
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Water restrictions and gardens
"Terryc" wrote in message
... 0tterbot wrote: personally, i don't think there's such a thing as "unviable" land in & of itself - The general adjective is farming and basically land meets this criteria when it can not be farmed in a sustainable way, i.e. you are generally degrading the land over time. Another definition of unviable is that the "farm" can not return a profit, which is also a reasonable definition. Although most unviable land is thought to be (for NSW) in the western division, there is some lands on the west of the dividing range that is also unviable. There are a number of farms that basically survive from collecting wild goats. what i'm trying to say is that definitions of "unviable" might be a bit limited - in settling on the definition, i'd hope that not only "traditional" farming is considered. anything can be farmed, it's just a question of where, when, and how! kylie |
#128
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Water restrictions and gardens
In article
, Terryc wrote: Chookie wrote: I don't see why Sydney people wouldn't be able to put up with that, Umm, where are you gong to shit? They'll bring back the night-men. I suppose it will be employment for all those idiots who have had to declare bankruptcy after buying unsustainable McMansions on unsustainable mortgages... And of course our decision-makers are often dills (don't get me started on Sartor or desalination!) so they're the ones who start talking about pinching the water from Tallowa etc. I think you will find that Sydney has been taking water from Tallowa for a long, long time. Sorry -- MORE water from Tallowa (after raising the dam wall). -- Chookie -- Sydney, Australia (Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply) "Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled." Kerry Cue |
#129
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Water restrictions and gardens
In article ,
"Farm1" please@askifyouwannaknow wrote: Truth be told, there are probably too many people in Sydney who don't 'think about things' because they are trying to keep their heads above (metaphorical) water of some kind. I work in TAFE and I see these people. You mean you have such things as TAFEs within easy access? THere is actually a TAFE in my suburb, but I don't work there. I have a 45-min drive through Sydney traffic to get to mine... is that 'easy access'? :-) Of course all of Sydney is not posh but at least it has such things as hospitals and schools and police stations and all sorts of other services. On a platter. Most large (and even small) country towns will have those things. You must be pretty remote if you don't have a TAFE within reach. Bourke and Coomealla have TAFEs! And TAFE is in reach of everyone via OTEN. Maps he http://www.tafensw.edu.au/campuses/index.htm The city people are very busy and talk lots (and that is even the ones I know and love) but they really don't observe too well. Too many fleeting glimpses or thoughts and not enough cogitation before saying or half thinking about soemthing before heading off to the next social engagement or need for busyness. shrug You can find that anywhere. One of my online friends from rural SA -- a district with maybe 1000 people in it -- mentioned a relative who seems to be all style and no substance. With two small boys, I'm perhaps a bit lacking in the social engagements dept. It's funny getting the Herald 'subscriber benefits' e-mail. Gosh, I'm missing out on dinner with Lord Wedgwood this time. Or should I say *he* is missing out on dinner with *me*?! The question is: what did they DO about it? For example, farmers were still *clearing* the WA wheat area in the 1920s. The plantings/ earthworks I saw were, I would estimate, ten years old. Bit of a gap there. Yes, I agree. But to solve dryland salinity and all sorts of other land related problems is not one where a quick solution or rushing in and doing anything and/or everything will always work. It was many years before it was found that the way to treat erosion was to treat the head of the erosion and not the body of the erosion. Not only that -- you have to find the limits of your solution, eg you might find a solution that is fine in terms of your own climate/soil etc, but it might not be appropriate elsewhere. And the information has to be passed around and retested, too. -- Chookie -- Sydney, Australia (Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply) "Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled." Kerry Cue |
#130
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Water restrictions and gardens
In article ,
"0tterbot" wrote: I'm asking because I've had a couple of country people tell me I'm more like a country person than a city person, and it seems to be a compliment ;-) perhaps they mean you talk really fast but with your mouth almost entirely closed? g Definitely not! i don't know what people might mean by that. ime city peeps are just as friendly as country peeps & i'm unsure where the idea comes from that cities are "unfriendly" (if it's about "friendliness" & that sort of thing). most country peeps seem much less inclined toward one-upmanship & jones-keeping-upping & mad consumerism & all that stuff. Probably that... -- Chookie -- Sydney, Australia (Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply) "Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled." Kerry Cue |
#131
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Water restrictions and gardens
In article ,
"0tterbot" wrote: - i've read 3 permaculture books so far & i'm just not GETTING IT. what's the goss on that? :-) snip perhaps it's just mollison et al's appalling writing style. it was like the books had no beginning or end, it was all just bla. i just sort of feel robbed - as though i was supposed to have "aha!" moments reading about this marvellous movement but it was all babble, politics (and slopes and windbreaks ;-) and the intense and repetitive way mr mollison wants us all to CONTROL our land rather freaks me out. most of my property is regenerating bushland. big bill is evidently of the opinion i should sell most of it, as it is too big for me to CONTROL. Sounds like you missed out on the Permaculture Design Manual and (IIRC) Permaculture One. The Earth User's Guide to Permaculture (by Rosemary Morrow) is quite accessible and better written than the others. Permaculture is agriculture for engineers. It looks at ways of saving energy rather than money. For example, my chooks are at present living under my lemon tree. They have removed the grass that was competing with the tree roots, spread mulch, and added fertiliser to the area. There are other ways to achieve the same results, but this is an energy-efficient one. The idea is to consider inputs and outputs and see how you can make things work for you with a minimum amount of effort. Soil characteristics are definitely an input. I think they are covered in PDM. In my example, my chooks need as inputs: a run to scratch in, green stuff to eat, and shade. They produce scratched-up ground, eggs, and poo. The lemon tree needs: the grass removed from its roots, nitrogenous fertiliser, and water. It provides: lemons and shade. (This list is not exhaustive, of course.) Therefore I arrange matters so that the chooks and lemon tree provide some of each other's needs *without my further intervention*. THAT is "control". The rest is broad conclusions and sample technique. HTH, -- Chookie -- Sydney, Australia (Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply) "Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled." Kerry Cue |
#132
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Water restrictions and gardens
"0tterbot" wrote in message
"Farm1" please@askifyouwannaknow wrote in message "Chookie" wrote in message My letter on a related subject was published today. I am now awaiting the backlash from the anti-germ brigade. (Near the bottom of the page...) http://www.smh.com.au/letters/index....e#contentSwap2 I went to this site and couldn't find any letter relating to water or drought. Was I a day too late? ya, it was yesterday. chookie wrote that although running through the sprinkler is a thing of the past, that her wee boys can still dance in the greywater pumped onto the lawn. sweet :-) I see what she means now about the anti-germ brigade :-)) |
#133
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Water restrictions and gardens
"Terryc" wrote in message
Chookie wrote: I don't see why Sydney people wouldn't be able to put up with that, Umm, where are you gong to shit? Shades of the Florida Superdome all over again. With any luck they'll have a lidded bucket. |
#134
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Water restrictions and gardens
"0tterbot" wrote in message
"Terryc" wrote in message 0tterbot wrote: personally, i don't think there's such a thing as "unviable" land in & of itself - The general adjective is farming and basically land meets this criteria when it can not be farmed in a sustainable way, i.e. you are generally degrading the land over time. Another definition of unviable is that the "farm" can not return a profit, which is also a reasonable definition. Although most unviable land is thought to be (for NSW) in the western division, there is some lands on the west of the dividing range that is also unviable. There are a number of farms that basically survive from collecting wild goats. what i'm trying to say is that definitions of "unviable" might be a bit limited - in settling on the definition, i'd hope that not only "traditional" farming is considered. anything can be farmed, it's just a question of where, when, and how! But not sustainably. Any land can be farmed if there is enough money, equipment and the person owning the land is prepared to mine other land or lands to bring in the materials to bring their land up to a level where any form of farming (whether traditional or not) can take place. |
#135
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Water restrictions and gardens
0tterbot wrote:
It isn't obvious to people who don't have a clue and haven't talked or looked at stuff before. i'm assuming that people would get a basic grasp of the process Nope, wrong assumption. Seriously, you have got to meet some of these people to believe how little they know/knew. It was good for a laugh, except when some poor animal was suffering. Obviously you are the wrong market. i must have just wanted to have a whinge!! g Naah, one of the benefits of being able to speed read is to decide if the book is really worth the $$$ asked. Do not ever trust anyones recommendation. |
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