frost question
 

we discovered today via notes (left by an old owner) which we have finally
received, that frosts are expected here 8-9 months of the year (!!!)
(average last frost is in november, and average earliest is in march). i
understand from the locals taht the frosts are really thick too, (i.e.
multiple centimetres - could they be exaggerating?) and one's waterpipes on
the roof, etc, are commonly frozen.

we had a frost on christmas night, for heaven's sake, so i really need to
get informed about it, but i cannot seem to grasp how it works. i realise
the basics (frost pockets, it travels downhill, you can cover your stuff, &
whatnot) but is there a good site about it or a good explanation anyone can
give (which isn't too patronisingly basic ;-)?

our yard generally slopes down to the east, and terminates at the veggie
patch (i.e. all frosts lead to the veggie patch?) the western side & centre
is reasonably flattish & at this point, reasonably bareish too. there's a
swale between the yard & veggie patch, and some fruit trees. the veggie
patch is much more sloped than the yard. when it frosted on christmas night,
a few bean plants (the last plants down the slope) were slightly affected,
but the tomatoes at the top of the patch were not. what does this mean? in
the yard, some pumpkin & zucchini plants were slightly affected, but most
were not. i can't fathom why some were affected & some not. the affected
cucurbits were further down the slight slope than the others, but really the
difference in that spot is minimal (to my eye) but is that the reason?

is there anything i can do in terms of planting or construction to limit
frost settling in the yard & in the veggie patch? we have lots of rocks &
one thing i was thinking is that i can (and no doubt will) utilise (more)
rocks for the bed edges, to break up the frost flow & create more warmth &
protection for the beds. i was quite keen on permaculture cough style
kidney-shaped suntrap beds, made of rock walls, but at this point the beds
are the ordinary rectangular kind, terraced with rocks & wood.
thanks for any thoughts or information!
kylie

frost question
 

I'd be interested to hear other's views on frost, too Kylie.

I live in the Yarra Valley (Vic.) and recently a surprise severe frost
took its toll on some of the big vineyards (Oct or Nov I think?) and
much good new growth was badly damaged. I forgot the what the estimate
in monetary damage they (the vineyards as a group) claimed but I think
it was in the millions.


What I did notice particularly was that the obvious damage was to where
the vines were at their lowest at bottoms of hills.


On that morning the bigger vineyards had helicopters going over them but
they still lost a lot of crops. It made me wonder what they do when a
severe frost is forecast. Do they drag mesh or some other protection
over them? (Like the bird nets they drag over them?) Would that help
or would the expense of a different set of covers be just too expensive?

frost question
 

Linda H wrote:

I'd be interested to hear other's views on frost, too Kylie.

I live in the Yarra Valley (Vic.) and recently a surprise severe frost
took its toll on some of the big vineyards (Oct or Nov I think?) and
much good new growth was badly damaged. I forgot the what the estimate
in monetary damage they (the vineyards as a group) claimed but I think
it was in the millions.


What I did notice particularly was that the obvious damage was to where
the vines were at their lowest at bottoms of hills.


On that morning the bigger vineyards had helicopters going over them but
they still lost a lot of crops. It made me wonder what they do when a
severe frost is forecast. Do they drag mesh or some other protection
over them? (Like the bird nets they drag over them?) Would that help
or would the expense of a different set of covers be just too expensive?

For home gardeners,If you want to go to the trouble of running a big fan
in your garden it will prevent frost. Otherwise cover plants up, also
helps to have 44 gal drums with water in them parked near plants. The
water picks up enough heat during the day to keep plants from getting
completely chilled.
Frost (rivers of cold air) travels down gullies. The helicopters stop it
from settling. Apparently watering the plants with water (when
frosted), instead of thawing them out by themselves, prevents some damage.

frost question
 

This is something I *can* help with...frost does settle in low areas, and
the description of your garden makes me think it will be badly affected, the
lower spots more so. If you can't move it, put more sensitive things higher
up the slope, and a hessian sack/old sheet/old blanket can be used to
protect new growth. Stone walls can be used to store heat during the day,
and reflect heat at night. If you put a stone wall at the lower end of the
slope, it will give those plants some relief. Also try and make sure your
garden bed isn't in shade during the winter afternoons. Anyway, just some
tips :) Look for frost friendly plants as well, frost will improve plants
like that.

frost question
 

"0tterbot" wrote in message
...
we discovered today via notes (left by an old owner) which we have
finally
received, that frosts are expected here 8-9 months of the year (!!!)
(average last frost is in november, and average earliest is in
march). i
understand from the locals taht the frosts are really thick too,
(i.e.
multiple centimetres - could they be exaggerating?) and one's
waterpipes on
the roof, etc, are commonly frozen.

we had a frost on christmas night, for heaven's sake,

We got one on Xmas Eve (or so I've been told). Didn't do a lot of
damage but nipped off the new growth on the tops of the cucumbers.

so i really need to
get informed about it, but i cannot seem to grasp how it works. i
realise
the basics (frost pockets, it travels downhill, you can cover your
stuff, &
whatnot) but is there a good site about it or a good explanation
anyone can
give (which isn't too patronisingly basic ;-)?

I suspect that you already know enough from what you've written in the
comments aboove and further on in your post. I think it's now more a
need for you to understand how it will impact on your own garden and
no site will tell you that - more a case of look and learn as time
goes on. IIRC you are only newly moved to that place but went there
from the ACT???? The ACT has ripper frosts in the more open areas but
if you were in a Canberra suburb the frosts there are much mitigated
by the microclimate formed by the suburbs and it's not like it used to
be in the 'old days'. I've even seen azaleas growing in Canberra now
and that was not possible about 30 years ago - it was Mollus Azaleas
or no Azaleas at all in those days.

There will be the odd spot in your garden that will be better than
others for frost protection, like under the eaves or on the south side
of the house but you'll find out where they are. One thing worth
remembering is that often it's not the frost that does the damage but
the thawing. By that I mean that a plant can be smothered in frost
but if it thaws out without the sun hitting it, it will often be OK
but if the sun hits it before about 10.00am then often it will be
badly damaged.

our yard generally slopes down to the east, and terminates at the
veggie
patch (i.e. all frosts lead to the veggie patch?)

Yep, and because it has that Easterly aspect, you'll need to be
careful about the sun hitting frozen plants, but then Eastern fall
land is better overall for plant growth.

the western side & centre
is reasonably flattish & at this point, reasonably bareish too.
there's a
swale between the yard & veggie patch, and some fruit trees. the
veggie
patch is much more sloped than the yard.

A good situation as you get frost drainage from the higher parts of
it.

when it frosted on christmas night,
a few bean plants (the last plants down the slope) were slightly
affected,
but the tomatoes at the top of the patch were not. what does this
mean?

A good demonstration for you about how frost drains downhill. In
future plant more frost tender things on the top of the veggie patch
(which we both know that you won't do - none of us ever do that given
that our space is usually limited by one factor or another:-))

in
the yard, some pumpkin & zucchini plants were slightly affected, but
most
were not. i can't fathom why some were affected & some not. the
affected
cucurbits were further down the slight slope than the others, but
really the
difference in that spot is minimal (to my eye) but is that the
reason?

Could be, but it could also be a factor of how advanced the plants
were. I suspect that zucchinis are tougher than cucumbers as my
cucumbers which are higher up my sloping veg bed were nipped whereas
my zucchinis weren't

is there anything i can do in terms of planting or construction to
limit
frost settling in the yard & in the veggie patch? we have lots of
rocks &
one thing i was thinking is that i can (and no doubt will) utilise
(more)
rocks for the bed edges, to break up the frost flow & create more
warmth &
protection for the beds.

The way to go might be to make more use of rock mulches, but make sure
the rocks are BIG rocks about the size of an adults head - not ****y
little things.

You could build walls or make hedges BUT they in themsleves can be
problematical. They can trap frost behind them and make the damage
even worse. For instance, I wouldn't build a stone wall at the bottom
of your veg patch unless you made it into a V shape with trhe bottom
of the V pointing downhill and with a break at the bottom of the V.
This should allow frost to be directed and drained through the break,
but also if the wall doesn't heat up well and get lots of solar intake
during the day, it could just be a further problem.

From what you've described, I think I'd plant a hedge that has good
growth right at the bottom of the hedge (to stop frost draing under
it) on the top of the downhill side of your swale ie the downhill side
of the U shape but at the top of the U - does that make sense? - I can
see it in my head but am having trouble putting it into English.

And collect and keep and scavenge old sheets, the bigger the better -
wonderfult hings for frost protection as can be old bits of shade
cloth. amazing what a few ofl tomatoe stakes and a bit of stuff
draped ont op of it can do to stop frost damage, but leave them on
well into the day till the frost has melted - about 10am before
removing them.

i was quite keen on permaculture cough style
kidney-shaped suntrap beds, made of rock walls, but at this point
the beds
are the ordinary rectangular kind, terraced with rocks & wood.
thanks for any thoughts or information!

I too have thought about the permi sun trap beds but in reality, I
realise that on country water supply (which I think you might also be
on????) they would be a pain in the arse to water efficiently and
effectively and also there is more of a problem for plants from being
too hot than needing the protection of the higher outer growing
plants. I've stuck with the rectangular shape for maincrops and put
other stuff under the edges of fruit trees round the edge of the veg
area. This has worked well for things like cutting greens and
strawberrys and things that don't like our nasty scorching sun or
which wilt at the drop of a hat.

frost question
 

"Linda H" wrote in message
I'd be interested to hear other's views on frost, too Kylie.

I live in the Yarra Valley (Vic.) and recently a surprise severe
frost
took its toll on some of the big vineyards (Oct or Nov I think?)

The particularly bad frost that hit a huge area of NSW and Vic was in
October. One of the worst I've ever seen as it bit the leaves on very
big trees and I've never seen anything like that before in my life.

What I did notice particularly was that the obvious damage was to
where
the vines were at their lowest at bottoms of hills.

Yep. Frost drained downhill to the lowest point. Never buy land in a
frost pocket :-))

On that morning the bigger vineyards had helicopters going over them
but
they still lost a lot of crops. It made me wonder what they do when
a
severe frost is forecast. Do they drag mesh or some other
protection
over them? (Like the bird nets they drag over them?)

There are a number of ways of dealing with frost commercially but the
most common that I know of is to spray water over the plants or to use
fans to create air movement. The old way was to light fires and
create lots of smoke. The trouble with the big October frost for
vineyards round here was that the cold snap went on for so long that
the water ran out and then the water droplets froze on the plants and
did more damage. The commercial producers have it all on electronic
command so they can now stay snug in their beds.

frost question
 

"Linda H" wrote in message
u...

I'd be interested to hear other's views on frost, too Kylie.

I live in the Yarra Valley (Vic.) and recently a surprise severe frost
took its toll on some of the big vineyards (Oct or Nov I think?) and much
good new growth was badly damaged. I forgot the what the estimate in
monetary damage they (the vineyards as a group) claimed but I think it was
in the millions.

ya, we got that one too. the commercial peach growers got a LOT of damage.
as did we, however, we've only been here 5 minutes so we had no emotional or
economic investment in the trees yet. every single baby fruit except two (2)
peaches on one of the trees was killed. that's a lot of apples & stone fruit
that died!!
kylie

frost question
 

"meeee" wrote in message
...
This is something I *can* help with...frost does settle in low areas, and
the description of your garden makes me think it will be badly affected,
the lower spots more so. If you can't move it, put more sensitive things
higher up the slope, and a hessian sack/old sheet/old blanket can be used
to protect new growth.

i was doing that for weeks & weeks while the last frosts (or so i thought
;-) carried on. it does work. (note to self, get more covers ;-)

Stone walls can be used to store heat during the day,
and reflect heat at night. If you put a stone wall at the lower end of the
slope, it will give those plants some relief.

i was thinking about this last night. and then i thought - would that not
create a frost pocket at the bottom of the garden. then i stayed awake
feeling confused :-) it would presumably work if the stone got warm enough.
also, i planted a kiwi (originally 2, but the male died) on that fence. my
thinking at the time was it would be easy to throw hessian over the plant &
fence every night. now i'm wondering if i shouldn't just move it. (?)

Also try and make sure your
garden bed isn't in shade during the winter afternoons. Anyway, just some
tips :) Look for frost friendly plants as well, frost will improve plants
like that.

i have been!! g i got one lovely one (decorative, not veg) the other week
that i think isn't. just to give myself something to fuss & obsess about.
i'm looking forward to the winter veg which won't give me any worries, i
must say. it's the "summer" things which suffer when it won't bloody stop
frosting that is driving me mad!

thanks!
kylie

frost question
 

"Farm1" please@askifyouwannaknow wrote in message
...

I suspect that you already know enough from what you've written in the
comments aboove and further on in your post.

well that's encouraging!

I think it's now more a
need for you to understand how it will impact on your own garden and
no site will tell you that - more a case of look and learn as time
goes on. IIRC you are only newly moved to that place but went there
from the ACT???? The ACT has ripper frosts in the more open areas but
if you were in a Canberra suburb the frosts there are much mitigated
by the microclimate formed by the suburbs and it's not like it used to
be in the 'old days'. I've even seen azaleas growing in Canberra now
and that was not possible about 30 years ago - it was Mollus Azaleas
or no Azaleas at all in those days.

certainly i noticed some frosts there, but it wasn't too bad (small yard in
the burbs, yeah). and also, by the time they came it was "frost time", so
that was all right anyway. it's really, really dry there too, which i
suppose helps(?). it's barely rained all year. here, the clouds come over
the mountain from the coast so it's generally much more moist. (i think
frost is frozen moisture from the air, is that right?)

Yep, and because it has that Easterly aspect, you'll need to be
careful about the sun hitting frozen plants, but then Eastern fall
land is better overall for plant growth.

i see. should i just keep them covered until they are thawed? i didn't know
this. i like the eastern aspect, the veg get plenty of sun without having to
bake & bake to a crisp all afternoon on a hot day.

A good demonstration for you about how frost drains downhill. In
future plant more frost tender things on the top of the veggie patch
(which we both know that you won't do - none of us ever do that given
that our space is usually limited by one factor or another:-))

you're not wrong :-)) we made so many beds that one is actually still empty,
& i was going to be all organised in order to rotate & all that, but the
reality is a little different ;-) the beans have just been stupid this year
& this may be why (the cold, the frost), although the slope keeps going, it
doesn't stop at the beans, but by the time it's come a way downhill is the
frost clinging to the ground more?

The way to go might be to make more use of rock mulches, but make sure
the rocks are BIG rocks about the size of an adults head - not ****y
little things.

i have big rocks :-)

You could build walls or make hedges BUT they in themsleves can be
problematical. They can trap frost behind them and make the damage
even worse. For instance, I wouldn't build a stone wall at the bottom
of your veg patch unless you made it into a V shape with trhe bottom
of the V pointing downhill and with a break at the bottom of the V.
This should allow frost to be directed and drained through the break,
but also if the wall doesn't heat up well and get lots of solar intake
during the day, it could just be a further problem.

good point.

From what you've described, I think I'd plant a hedge that has good
growth right at the bottom of the hedge (to stop frost draing under
it) on the top of the downhill side of your swale ie the downhill side
of the U shape but at the top of the U - does that make sense? - I can
see it in my head but am having trouble putting it into English.

i think that makes sense. the idea being, the frost will more likely have to
travel along the swale & the hedge without being able to get into the veggie
patch so much?

I too have thought about the permi sun trap beds but in reality, I
realise that on country water supply (which I think you might also be
on????)

yes.

they would be a pain in the arse to water efficiently and
effectively

do you mean because of the shape, or the rocks sticking up, or ..?

and also there is more of a problem for plants from being
too hot than needing the protection of the higher outer growing
plants. I've stuck with the rectangular shape for maincrops and put
other stuff under the edges of fruit trees round the edge of the veg
area. This has worked well for things like cutting greens and
strawberrys and things that don't like our nasty scorching sun or
which wilt at the drop of a hat.

hm. i had the idea that i could make short walls around the southern end of
each bed (or perhaps just a couple) perhaps for things which like heat. i
take your point about heat not always being helpful :-) we are classified as
"cool temperate" here, which means that overall it is not hot, but of course
there are still really hot days too. it's a poser!!

thanks!!
kylie

frost question
 

g'day kylie,

yes a very vexing question with no direct answer, being on an eastern
aspect should mean you have less of an affect than say someone on a
western aspect. a northern aspect should then fair better again.

and using sustainable permaculture type methods can seem to at times
make matters worse ie i am of the school of thought of mulching
heavily to insulate the root zones and while that does work well i
find that the only places i was getting visible frost was on top of
the mulch in light to medium frosts.

and again working the contours with mulch rows or swales is then going
to have the effect of trapping frost as it flows down the slope.
hopefully by putting these observations in the melting pot you then be
better able to work out some solution in your case, as you are there
on site and in real time.

now having said all of that our planning was over the long term to
create rows of trees to act as not only wind breaks and create shade
from the western sun but grown along the contours high up on the
western side they should then when much older help to lessen frost as
warm air is trapped with the tree planting canopy. if you read
mollesons into to perm' i think he alludes to this somewhere in there
but me not sure of that is i don't read hard copy that much.

anyhow saw a doco' on tv of later years about a chappy using p/c
principals around kempsey/casino area he usd tree canopy to all but
remove frost incidences from his project.

also to keep in mind where frost generally in still conditions will
flow down hill it can with a light breeze behind it be propelled
uphill.

and the frost we talk of here is the white visible type frost, these
can be managed using sprinklers from just before dawns greyness to
after the sun has risen, you can use covers, and another farmer trick
is to lay a smoke screen using fires burning green material in 44
gallon drums (might be frowned on in current time?) this lays a cover
of warm air like a blanket it needs to be down wind of the plants to
be protected.

BUT we found we wasted lots of water saving things that ultimately got
destroyed because a black frost came though these in our case would
come throuhg with the cold front usually around midnight, so in the
end we planted for hardiness and used the rule if they live they live
if they don't they don't as wasting water was not sustainable apart
from getting out of bed into the freezing cold outside while partener
was warm and cosy in bed mmm there ya go lol.

so in short trees and covers i reckon, you may need a grow tunnel so
you have the summer crops long enough?

happy new year

On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 10:10:32 GMT, "0tterbot" wrote:

snipped


With peace and brightest of blessings,

len

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.lensgarden.com.au/

frost question
 

"0tterbot" wrote in message
"Farm1" please@askifyouwannaknow wrote in message

The ACT has ripper frosts in the more open areas but
if you were in a Canberra suburb the frosts there are much
mitigated
by the microclimate formed by the suburbs

certainly i noticed some frosts there, but it wasn't too bad (small
yard in
the burbs, yeah). and also, by the time they came it was "frost
time", so
that was all right anyway. it's really, really dry there too, which
i
suppose helps(?).

I don't think that lack of rain does help to stop frosts. That
unbelieveable frost we got in October was right in a very dry time and
I went to see some open gardens down round Nimmitabel after that frost
and they had had phenomenal damage (and as you'd know the Monaro has
been as dry as the Smiths Crisps factory for years and years).

it's barely rained all year. here, the clouds come over
the mountain from the coast so it's generally much more moist. (i
think
frost is frozen moisture from the air, is that right?)

Yes I think so but then I don't really know.

Yep, and because it has that Easterly aspect, you'll need to be
careful about the sun hitting frozen plants, but then Eastern fall
land is better overall for plant growth.

i see. should i just keep them covered until they are thawed?

Yes but yuo'll find out which ones can be uncovered earlier than
others and which ones will also be burned off by the frost right
through whatever you cover them with. I didn't plant my tomatoes till
I knew who had won the Melbourne Cup and even then we kept covering
them each night. They were planted into the triangular plastic
sleeves and covered each night with old chook food bags and they still
got bitten after one particulalry bad frost right through double
covering.

i didn't know
this. i like the eastern aspect, the veg get plenty of sun without
having to
bake & bake to a crisp all afternoon on a hot day.

Yep. Eastern fall land also gives protection from those hot westerly
winds which dry things out so quick.

A good demonstration for you about how frost drains downhill. In
future plant more frost tender things on the top of the veggie
patch
(which we both know that you won't do - none of us ever do that
given
that our space is usually limited by one factor or another:-))

you're not wrong :-)) we made so many beds that one is actually
still empty,
& i was going to be all organised in order to rotate & all that, but
the
reality is a little different ;-)

Yep. Either never enough beds ready at the right time or too many
beds ready.

the beans have just been stupid this year
& this may be why (the cold, the frost),

That could also be our fluctuating temperatures too. Hot then cold
etc and the ground temp. must fluctuate too. Bloody shit of a season.

although the slope keeps going, it
doesn't stop at the beans, but by the time it's come a way downhill
is the
frost clinging to the ground more?

Frost is such a variable thing. Although it generally seems to 'flow'
like water it can sometimes hit something and not hit another more
tender thing which you expect to find as dead as a tick right near
something that has been hit. I dunno whehter that just luck or good
management but certainly big rocksdo seem to mitigate frosts as do
well grown plants - by that I mean sturdy, healthy, well watered but
not overfed by too mush forcing on with fertiliser.

The way to go might be to make more use of rock mulches, but make
sure
the rocks are BIG rocks about the size of an adults head - not
****y
little things.

i have big rocks :-)

Good. Now you have a good use for them ;-)) Hint - buy one of those
cheap 2 wheeled high handled moving trolleys from Supercheap Auto,
(about $29 IIRC) they're invaluable for moving rocks/pot plants, but
also keep the tyres well pumped up as those cheap tyres go down real
quick.

From what you've described, I think I'd plant a hedge that has
good
growth right at the bottom of the hedge (to stop frost draing
under
it) on the top of the downhill side of your swale ie the downhill
side
of the U shape but at the top of the U - does that make sense? - I
can
see it in my head but am having trouble putting it into English.

i think that makes sense. the idea being, the frost will more likely
have to
travel along the swale & the hedge without being able to get into
the veggie
patch so much?

Yes. It will lie in the swale in a frost pocket on the uphill side of
the hedge and not continue to drain down into the veg patch.

they would be a pain in the arse to water efficiently and
effectively

do you mean because of the shape, or the rocks sticking up, or ..?

The shape. But when you mention rocks, I wonder if you're thinking of
the permie mandala beds???

The kidney shaped permie beds I thought you meant were the ones with
the taller plants on the outer edge of the curve with the lower
growing plants on the inner sider of the curves. I think they call
them sun traps?????????? And the ones I've seen pics of didn't ahve
any rocks whereas the mandala beds all did. Not that it matters
either way - I have enough problems watering with low pressure without
adding to it. BTW, do you have low pressure because Green Harvest
seel those wonderful low pressure 'rattle" top sprinklers which are
wonderful for low pressure country systems - I've got about a dozen
and swear by them..

and also there is more of a problem for plants from being
too hot than needing the protection of the higher outer growing
plants. I've stuck with the rectangular shape for maincrops and
put
other stuff under the edges of fruit trees round the edge of the
veg
area. This has worked well for things like cutting greens and
strawberrys and things that don't like our nasty scorching sun or
which wilt at the drop of a hat.

hm. i had the idea that i could make short walls around the southern
end of
each bed (or perhaps just a couple) perhaps for things which like
heat. i
take your point about heat not always being helpful :-) we are
classified as
"cool temperate" here, which means that overall it is not hot, but
of course
there are still really hot days too. it's a poser!!

But you can plant to suit the season and the position with walls or
just move the planting out from the wall as needed. I put up and take
down walls as I find they work or don't. Just watch out for Joe
Blakes - rotten sodding things, they love rocks with chinks in them.
They also love to hide down the side of old fence posts that are
loose. I've had my husband go round and fill in all the sides of the
ones round the garden this year. He has only just come back from a
neighbour's (who he respects) and tell me what a good idea it was to
fill them in. He didn't say that at the time I insisted he do it :-))

frost question
 

Farm1 wrote:


One thing worth
remembering is that often it's not the frost that does the damage but
the thawing. By that I mean that a plant can be smothered in frost
but if it thaws out without the sun hitting it, it will often be OK
but if the sun hits it before about 10.00am then often it will be
badly damaged.


Ahh, now that is very interesting. And surprising. I would have done
it all wrong in the thinking that the sooner the sun thaws it the better
- and been worse off.

Hey, thanks for that very handy bit of info.

frost question
 

What happens is the plant cells expand to fast and they burst if the sun
hits them.
The idea of spraying the leaves with water, allows the plants to get to
temperature stage which then wont burst the cells.
After they do and have recovered the temperature equalises with air
temperature, which happens at a much slower rate, so no burst cells.
The plant should recover fully..
"Linda H" wrote in message
...
Farm1 wrote:


One thing worth
remembering is that often it's not the frost that does the damage but
the thawing. By that I mean that a plant can be smothered in frost
but if it thaws out without the sun hitting it, it will often be OK
but if the sun hits it before about 10.00am then often it will be
badly damaged.


Ahh, now that is very interesting. And surprising. I would have done it
all wrong in the thinking that the sooner the sun thaws it the better -
and been worse off.

Hey, thanks for that very handy bit of info.

frost question
 

"Farm1" please@askifyouwannaknow wrote in message
...

I don't think that lack of rain does help to stop frosts. That
unbelieveable frost we got in October was right in a very dry time

that's a good point. i suppose i just don't grasp frost :-)

i think that makes sense. the idea being, the frost will more likely
have to
travel along the swale & the hedge without being able to get into
the veggie
patch so much?

Yes. It will lie in the swale in a frost pocket on the uphill side of
the hedge and not continue to drain down into the veg patch.

we've got lavender out the wazoo, so i think i'm going to plant a lavender
hedge! nothing ventured, nothing gained! if it doesn't help, i'll still have
a nice hedge. unless it dies, of course ;-)

The shape. But when you mention rocks, I wonder if you're thinking of
the permie mandala beds???

noooooo!

The kidney shaped permie beds I thought you meant were the ones with
the taller plants on the outer edge of the curve with the lower
growing plants on the inner sider of the curves. I think they call
them sun traps?????????? And the ones I've seen pics of didn't ahve
any rocks whereas the mandala beds all did.

the ones i saw in a book (one of those permie books i hated & bitched about
later ;-) were kidney shaped, with the short curve facing north, and the
long curve on the south side. then you would build up the south side so the
sun hits the rocks, so the whole bed was a warm little north-facing pocket.
it's a cool idea! (or rather, a warm one).

Not that it matters
either way - I have enough problems watering with low pressure without
adding to it. BTW, do you have low pressure because Green Harvest
seel those wonderful low pressure 'rattle" top sprinklers which are
wonderful for low pressure country systems - I've got about a dozen
and swear by them..

the only pressure we get is from gravity, so that's... er, it's not bad, but
it's not like in town, but it's definitely ok. i don't have what i'd
consider "water pressure problems" though. i'll have a look at your link in
a minute! do you water veg with sprinklers? i try to water more directly
onto the soil.

But you can plant to suit the season and the position with walls or
just move the planting out from the wall as needed. I put up and take
down walls as I find they work or don't. Just watch out for Joe
Blakes - rotten sodding things, they love rocks with chinks in them.
They also love to hide down the side of old fence posts that are
loose. I've had my husband go round and fill in all the sides of the
ones round the garden this year. He has only just come back from a
neighbour's (who he respects) and tell me what a good idea it was to
fill them in. He didn't say that at the time I insisted he do it :-))

what are joe blakes?
thanks for the help.
kylie

frost question
 

"gardenlen" wrote in message
...
g'day kylie,

yes a very vexing question with no direct answer, being on an eastern
aspect should mean you have less of an affect than say someone on a
western aspect. a northern aspect should then fair better again.

and using sustainable permaculture type methods can seem to at times
make matters worse ie i am of the school of thought of mulching
heavily to insulate the root zones and while that does work well i
find that the only places i was getting visible frost was on top of
the mulch in light to medium frosts.

and again working the contours with mulch rows or swales is then going
to have the effect of trapping frost as it flows down the slope.
hopefully by putting these observations in the melting pot you then be
better able to work out some solution in your case, as you are there
on site and in real time.

i'll need to do some experimenting & some hoping for the best, but any rate
i'm glad i asked here for some ideas!! i have a few plans afoot now (which
i'll get to when i'm finished with my new, luxurious chicken accommodation,
which has taken me a long time to get to due to other commitments, and...
well, you know how it is ;-). before asking, i was merely viewing the entire
problem with helpless rage g (and some hessian covers - i'm not a complete
push-over).

now having said all of that our planning was over the long term to
create rows of trees to act as not only wind breaks and create shade
from the western sun but grown along the contours high up on the
western side they should then when much older help to lessen frost as
warm air is trapped with the tree planting canopy. if you read
mollesons into to perm' i think he alludes to this somewhere in there
but me not sure of that is i don't read hard copy that much.

anyhow saw a doco' on tv of later years about a chappy using p/c
principals around kempsey/casino area he usd tree canopy to all but
remove frost incidences from his project.

i think when it begins frosting again, i'll make more observations about
where it's happening, in relation to trees etc. (and my new rock walls i'll
have by then).

also to keep in mind where frost generally in still conditions will
flow down hill it can with a light breeze behind it be propelled
uphill.

and the frost we talk of here is the white visible type frost, these
can be managed using sprinklers from just before dawns greyness to
after the sun has risen, you can use covers, and another farmer trick
is to lay a smoke screen using fires burning green material in 44
gallon drums (might be frowned on in current time?) this lays a cover
of warm air like a blanket it needs to be down wind of the plants to
be protected.

BUT we found we wasted lots of water saving things that ultimately got
destroyed because a black frost came though these in our case would
come throuhg with the cold front usually around midnight, so in the
end we planted for hardiness and used the rule if they live they live
if they don't they don't as wasting water was not sustainable apart
from getting out of bed into the freezing cold outside while partener
was warm and cosy in bed mmm there ya go lol.

well, that's exactly it :-) what is a black frost?

so in short trees and covers i reckon, you may need a grow tunnel so
you have the summer crops long enough?

i'm going to make some of those (it's on my exceedingly long to-do list).
ideally i'd have had them for this spring, but i was in such a hurry i just
did the garden anyway without any sort of cloches or anything, & then felt
sad about how much it would have helped. i'm also getting less naive about
conditions here, too ;-)

happy new year

you too! thanks for the tips.
kylie

frost question
 

0tterbot wrote:
"Farm1" please@askifyouwannaknow wrote in message
...
I don't think that lack of rain does help to stop frosts. That
unbelieveable frost we got in October was right in a very dry time

that's a good point. i suppose i just don't grasp frost :-)

i think that makes sense. the idea being, the frost will more likely
have to
travel along the swale & the hedge without being able to get into
the veggie
patch so much?
Yes. It will lie in the swale in a frost pocket on the uphill side of
the hedge and not continue to drain down into the veg patch.

we've got lavender out the wazoo, so i think i'm going to plant a lavender
hedge! nothing ventured, nothing gained! if it doesn't help, i'll still have
a nice hedge. unless it dies, of course ;-)

The shape. But when you mention rocks, I wonder if you're thinking of
the permie mandala beds???

noooooo!

The kidney shaped permie beds I thought you meant were the ones with
the taller plants on the outer edge of the curve with the lower
growing plants on the inner sider of the curves. I think they call
them sun traps?????????? And the ones I've seen pics of didn't ahve
any rocks whereas the mandala beds all did.

the ones i saw in a book (one of those permie books i hated & bitched about
later ;-) were kidney shaped, with the short curve facing north, and the
long curve on the south side. then you would build up the south side so the
sun hits the rocks, so the whole bed was a warm little north-facing pocket.
it's a cool idea! (or rather, a warm one).

Not that it matters
either way - I have enough problems watering with low pressure without
adding to it. BTW, do you have low pressure because Green Harvest
seel those wonderful low pressure 'rattle" top sprinklers which are
wonderful for low pressure country systems - I've got about a dozen
and swear by them..

the only pressure we get is from gravity, so that's... er, it's not bad, but
it's not like in town, but it's definitely ok. i don't have what i'd
consider "water pressure problems" though. i'll have a look at your link in
a minute! do you water veg with sprinklers? i try to water more directly
onto the soil.

But you can plant to suit the season and the position with walls or
just move the planting out from the wall as needed. I put up and take
down walls as I find they work or don't. Just watch out for Joe
Blakes - rotten sodding things, they love rocks with chinks in them.
They also love to hide down the side of old fence posts that are
loose. I've had my husband go round and fill in all the sides of the
ones round the garden this year. He has only just come back from a
neighbour's (who he respects) and tell me what a good idea it was to
fill them in. He didn't say that at the time I insisted he do it :-))

what are joe blakes?
thanks for the help.
kylie


Joe Blakes rhymes with adders, actually seriously it rhymes with SNAKES

frost question
 

g'day kylie,

yes observing will help you decide your best action with all
suggestions in the melting pot.

black forst is where you don't see frost but the plants get burnt
anyway we used to get it on occassion it would only present in small
patches i would suggest that those spots are where the air was the
coldest.

that is why in the end i covered things up and didn't bother geting
out of bed to hose off teh white frost because it only took 1 black
frost and that made all your efforts and especially water wasted.

i would use hay/straw from bales to cover plants with over night and
remove it the next day i did this with frost sensative trees like
pawpaws and it saved the main crown from damage.

On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 08:59:50 GMT, "0tterbot" wrote:

"gardenlen" wrote in message
.. .
snipped
With peace and brightest of blessings,

len

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.lensgarden.com.au/

frost question
 

"0tterbot" wrote in message
...
"meeee" wrote in message
...
This is something I *can* help with...frost does settle in low areas, and
the description of your garden makes me think it will be badly affected,
the lower spots more so. If you can't move it, put more sensitive things
higher up the slope, and a hessian sack/old sheet/old blanket can be used
to protect new growth.

i was doing that for weeks & weeks while the last frosts (or so i thought
;-) carried on. it does work. (note to self, get more covers ;-)

Stone walls can be used to store heat during the day,
and reflect heat at night. If you put a stone wall at the lower end of
the slope, it will give those plants some relief.

i was thinking about this last night. and then i thought - would that not
create a frost pocket at the bottom of the garden. then i stayed awake
feeling confused :-) it would presumably work if the stone got warm
enough. also, i planted a kiwi (originally 2, but the male died) on that
fence. my thinking at the time was it would be easy to throw hessian over
the plant & fence every night. now i'm wondering if i shouldn't just move
it. (?)

Also try and make sure your
garden bed isn't in shade during the winter afternoons. Anyway, just some
tips :) Look for frost friendly plants as well, frost will improve plants
like that.

i have been!! g i got one lovely one (decorative, not veg) the other
week that i think isn't. just to give myself something to fuss & obsess
about. i'm looking forward to the winter veg which won't give me any
worries, i must say. it's the "summer" things which suffer when it won't
bloody stop frosting that is driving me mad!

thanks!
kylie


Lol sounds like you're having fun anyway. I think the others had better
advice...but one thing I do know is that if your tomato plants get bitten
and cark it, pull them out by the roots and hang them upside down; you'll
get most of your green tomatoes ripening that way. I had tomatoes half way
through winter with this trick!!

frost question
 

"Jonno" writes:
The idea of spraying the leaves with water, allows the plants to get to
temperature stage which then wont burst the cells.
After they do and have recovered the temperature equalises with air
temperature, which happens at a much slower rate, so no burst cells.
The plant should recover fully..

This means that you can't leave your garden hose lying across the ground
ready for use, or it will be frozen (and maybe the water in it, too) just
when you need it.

I recall years ago seeing a commercial orange farmer in a frost-prone
area had what looked like large aeroplane engines + propeller mounted
up high in his orchard, and they'd turn them on during frosty nights
at the critical stage in the fruit's development to move the air around
over the trees.

You never get a frost on windy nights. Or hire a helicopter to hover over
your precious tomatoes.
--
John Savage (my news address is not valid for email)

frost question
 

John Savage wrote:
"Jonno" writes:
The idea of spraying the leaves with water, allows the plants to get to
temperature stage which then wont burst the cells.
After they do and have recovered the temperature equalises with air
temperature, which happens at a much slower rate, so no burst cells.
The plant should recover fully..

This means that you can't leave your garden hose lying across the ground
ready for use, or it will be frozen (and maybe the water in it, too) just
when you need it.

I recall years ago seeing a commercial orange farmer in a frost-prone
area had what looked like large aeroplane engines + propeller mounted
up high in his orchard, and they'd turn them on during frosty nights
at the critical stage in the fruit's development to move the air around
over the trees.

You never get a frost on windy nights. Or hire a helicopter to hover over
your precious tomatoes.

I know a few model helicopter enthusiasts who may be able to save a few
dollars here.. (grin!)

A bit noisy farm1

frost question
 

"0tterbot" wrote in message
"Farm1" please@askifyouwannaknow wrote in message

Yes. It will lie in the swale in a frost pocket on the uphill
side of
the hedge and not continue to drain down into the veg patch.

we've got lavender out the wazoo, so i think i'm going to plant a
lavender
hedge! nothing ventured, nothing gained! if it doesn't help, i'll
still have
a nice hedge. unless it dies, of course ;-)

Don't let it get leggy - you need to growth to be right to the ground
to stop frost drainage at the base of the plant.

The kidney shaped permie beds I thought you meant were the ones
with
the taller plants on the outer edge of the curve with the lower
growing plants on the inner sider of the curves. I think they
call
them sun traps?????????? And the ones I've seen pics of didn't
ahve
any rocks whereas the mandala beds all did.

the ones i saw in a book (one of those permie books i hated &
bitched about
later ;-) were kidney shaped, with the short curve facing north, and
the
long curve on the south side. then you would build up the south side
so the
sun hits the rocks, so the whole bed was a warm little north-facing
pocket.
it's a cool idea! (or rather, a warm one).

Ah. A variation on the theme.

Not that it matters
either way - I have enough problems watering with low pressure
without
adding to it. BTW, do you have low pressure because Green Harvest
seel those wonderful low pressure 'rattle" top sprinklers which
are
wonderful for low pressure country systems - I've got about a
dozen
and swear by them..

the only pressure we get is from gravity, so that's... er, it's not
bad, but
it's not like in town, but it's definitely ok. i don't have what i'd
consider "water pressure problems" though. i'll have a look at your
link in
a minute! do you water veg with sprinklers? i try to water more
directly
onto the soil.

A mix depending on location - some fixed sprinklers, some moveable
sprinklers and some I hand water with a hose. I understand that drip
irrigation is now recommended as most water efficient but I have habit
of putting forks through lines and they wouldn't work in my veg bed
situation. I mulch once the soil warms up (and I'm deadly with a fork
for hidden lines under mulch - a guaranteed plastic line detector am
I).

what are joe blakes?

Snakes.

thanks for the help.

You're welcome.

frost question
 

"0tterbot" wrote in message
"gardenlen" wrote in message


so in short trees and covers i reckon, you may need a grow tunnel
so
you have the summer crops long enough?

i'm going to make some of those (it's on my exceedingly long to-do
list).
ideally i'd have had them for this spring, but i was in such a hurry
i just
did the garden anyway without any sort of cloches or anything, &
then felt
sad about how much it would have helped. i'm also getting less naive
about
conditions here, too ;-)

Have a look at Len's strawbale beds. Straw is a very useful medium
but expensive at the moment - sigh.

It's worth buying some straw in Autumn and aging it (by that I mean
put it on the ground and then turn it regularly to age it - fresh
straw can be antagonistic to new plant growth so just turn each face
to the earth over about a 4 month period - it rots a bit but not
enough to destroy it). Once its aged over winter set out 3 bales
facing north in a U shape in late winter over prepared ground and put
2 old windows on the northern side - one on the top of the bales and
the other leaning onto the open part of the U. The sun will warm it
up and give you an early planting spot - good for cucurbitszucchini
etc as by the time the frosts are over they are big enough to power
on.

frost question
 

"meeee" wrote in message
...
i have been!! g i got one lovely one (decorative, not veg) the other
week that i think isn't. just to give myself something to fuss & obsess
about. i'm looking forward to the winter veg which won't give me any
worries, i must say. it's the "summer" things which suffer when it won't
bloody stop frosting that is driving me mad!

thanks!
kylie


Lol sounds like you're having fun anyway. I think the others had better
advice...but one thing I do know is that if your tomato plants get bitten
and cark it, pull them out by the roots and hang them upside down; you'll
get most of your green tomatoes ripening that way. I had tomatoes half way
through winter with this trick!!

thank you! that's a good tip. i suspect there'll be a lot of hanging
tomatoes around here this autumn :-) (they're just going so sloooooow!)
kylie

frost question
 

"Jonno" wrote in message
...
what are joe blakes?
thanks for the help.
kylie
Joe Blakes rhymes with adders, actually seriously it rhymes with SNAKES

oh! of course.

i'm not at all scared of snakes (although i probably should be) but one fun
activity to do with my dh is to loudly say "snake!" while we're walking
through the bush. my, it makes him leap. i have to watch what i say now,
otherwise he's in a permanent state of nervous exhaustion just thinking
about it. it would be sad if it weren't so funny :-)
kylie who clearly needs a total attitude readjustment.

frost question
 

"Farm1" please@askifyouwannaknow wrote in message
...

Don't let it get leggy - you need to growth to be right to the ground
to stop frost drainage at the base of the plant.

tch! MY lavenders aren't leggy. hmf! g actually what made me think it's a
great idea is the kind i have most of is very bushy anyway, it looks right.

a minute! do you water veg with sprinklers? i try to water more
directly
onto the soil.

A mix depending on location - some fixed sprinklers, some moveable
sprinklers and some I hand water with a hose. I understand that drip
irrigation is now recommended as most water efficient but I have habit
of putting forks through lines and they wouldn't work in my veg bed
situation. I mulch once the soil warms up (and I'm deadly with a fork
for hidden lines under mulch - a guaranteed plastic line detector am
I).

heh. i am thinking there might be pragmatic problems with putting in a drip
system for the veg. (not least, having to rearrange all the sticking-out
bits every time some new formation of soemthing-or-other went in!?) otoh, i
don't want water spraying between beds or anything, either. otoh again,
doing it all by hand with a hose takes an exasperatingly long time some
days. by this point i've used up too many hands. i'll think about it more.
ta again.
kylie

frost question
 

"gardenlen" wrote in message
...
g'day kylie,

yes observing will help you decide your best action with all
suggestions in the melting pot.

black forst is where you don't see frost but the plants get burnt
anyway we used to get it on occassion it would only present in small
patches i would suggest that those spots are where the air was the
coldest.

hm.

that is why in the end i covered things up and didn't bother geting
out of bed to hose off teh white frost because it only took 1 black
frost and that made all your efforts and especially water wasted.

i would use hay/straw from bales to cover plants with over night and
remove it the next day i did this with frost sensative trees like
pawpaws and it saved the main crown from damage.

did you cover thickly? was it a hassle? when i have an asparagus bed ( the
plants are only a few weeks old, and very tiny and cute ;-) i was under the
impression you do this, but cut the plants down first & then just spread the
straw over the top for the winter. i image you can just do it anyway with
any plant, though, within reason.
kylie

frost question
 

"Farm1" please@askifyouwannaknow wrote in message
...

Have a look at Len's strawbale beds.

i did! it got me thinking.

Straw is a very useful medium
but expensive at the moment - sigh.

in our area it's been the same price since we got here, but shorter, bittier
& crappier just lately.

It's worth buying some straw in Autumn and aging it (by that I mean
put it on the ground and then turn it regularly to age it - fresh
straw can be antagonistic to new plant growth so just turn each face
to the earth over about a 4 month period - it rots a bit but not
enough to destroy it). Once its aged over winter set out 3 bales
facing north in a U shape in late winter over prepared ground and put
2 old windows on the northern side - one on the top of the bales and
the other leaning onto the open part of the U. The sun will warm it
up and give you an early planting spot - good for cucurbitszucchini
etc as by the time the frosts are over they are big enough to power
on.

excellent! thanks!
kylie

frost question
 

kylie,

with those plants that wher dormant in winter they where covered
conmpletely ie.,. the ginger as there was no top growth left.

but with growing stuff like pumpkins and pawpaw i covered with enough
of a loose layer to create a barrier of warmer air, this with heavily
mulched root runs which kept the root runs warmer all helped.



On Wed, 03 Jan 2007 12:13:52 GMT, "0tterbot" wrote:

snipped
With peace and brightest of blessings,

len

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.lensgarden.com.au/

frost question
 

kylie,

i don;t use straw as such it is way too dear and harder to get around
here so i use what is readily available and economical and that is
sugar cane mulch and pasture grass hay.

you could use dense foliaged branches from other trees as a cove also
anything to create that air barrier.

On Wed, 03 Jan 2007 12:16:57 GMT, "0tterbot" wrote:

snipped
With peace and brightest of blessings,

len

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.lensgarden.com.au/

frost question
 

"0tterbot" wrote in message
...
"meeee" wrote in message
...
i have been!! g i got one lovely one (decorative, not veg) the other
week that i think isn't. just to give myself something to fuss & obsess
about. i'm looking forward to the winter veg which won't give me any
worries, i must say. it's the "summer" things which suffer when it won't
bloody stop frosting that is driving me mad!

thanks!
kylie


Lol sounds like you're having fun anyway. I think the others had better
advice...but one thing I do know is that if your tomato plants get bitten
and cark it, pull them out by the roots and hang them upside down; you'll
get most of your green tomatoes ripening that way. I had tomatoes half
way through winter with this trick!!

thank you! that's a good tip. i suspect there'll be a lot of hanging
tomatoes around here this autumn :-) (they're just going so sloooooow!)
kylie


uh huh...just when you want them to hurry up and ripen before the frost
kills them, they decide to get all sleepy....last time I did this, we were
living on a 'shared' block with some tourist cabins; the road the tourists
used went straight past our house, and our greenhouse was right next to the
road. I used to love watching the looks; they'd come up the driveway, see DH
sitting in the hammock after work, dreadlocks swinging in the breeze, reggae
playing loudly, and some suspicious looking plants drying in the
greenhouse....then, oh, it's only tomatoes and they'd smile and wave and
probably wonder what else we had drying out the back....lol yuppies are
funny people.

frost question
 

"0tterbot" wrote in message
...
"Jonno" wrote in message
...
what are joe blakes?
thanks for the help.
kylie
Joe Blakes rhymes with adders, actually seriously it rhymes with SNAKES

oh! of course.

i'm not at all scared of snakes (although i probably should be) but one
fun activity to do with my dh is to loudly say "snake!" while we're
walking through the bush. my, it makes him leap. i have to watch what i
say now, otherwise he's in a permanent state of nervous exhaustion just
thinking about it. it would be sad if it weren't so funny :-)
kylie who clearly needs a total attitude readjustment.



Lol I do this to my DH too....he dislikes snakes, whereas I'm a bit more
blase.

frost question
 

"0tterbot" wrote in message
"meeee" wrote in message

but one thing I do know is that if your tomato plants get bitten
and cark it, pull them out by the roots and hang them upside down;
you'll
get most of your green tomatoes ripening that way. I had tomatoes
half way
through winter with this trick!!

thank you! that's a good tip. i suspect there'll be a lot of hanging
tomatoes around here this autumn :-) (they're just going so
sloooooow!)

Or make lots of green tomato pickle.

frost question
 

"0tterbot" wrote in message
"Farm1" please@askifyouwannaknow wrote in message

A mix depending on location - some fixed sprinklers, some moveable
sprinklers and some I hand water with a hose. I understand that
drip
irrigation is now recommended as most water efficient

heh. i am thinking there might be pragmatic problems with putting in
a drip
system for the veg. (not least, having to rearrange all the
sticking-out
bits every time some new formation of soemthing-or-other went in!?)

Yep. You hit the nail on the head.

otoh, i
don't want water spraying between beds or anything, either.

No. Total waste of water so that is why I use such a variety of
techniques.

For our 'official' veg beds which are 2 railway sleepers long by half
a railway sleeper wide, we use the microsprinklers and they work well.
We have the a quarter circle head in each corner and then I think 2
(or perhaps 3) 180 degree heads down each side. They are put on in
the morning before the wind gets up and they do a good job. I have
also made a number of individual micro sprinklers of either half or
quarter circle on a click clack connector that I can use for various
odd shaped spots round the garden. Himself was disparaging about how
effective they would be when I made my first one but I notice that he
now uses them too. Must make some more of them.

I've also found a spkie sprinkler that just has a slit in it and that
is brilliant for the edges of beds where a round sprinkler always
leaves a few spots unwatered. I spent too much bloody time wandering
round this big garden retreiving the right sprinkler for the job, but
better than letting my investments die from lack of water. And as for
the money I'm spending on mulch of various types...........

otoh again,
doing it all by hand with a hose takes an exasperatingly long time
some
days.

Yep, and not to mention the pots that need watering cans carried to
them - sigh. I even use mulch (rice hulls or lucerne chaff) on the
top of pot plants now.

frost question
 

"0tterbot" wrote in message

did you cover thickly?

Be careful with mulch - too thick and you can't water through it. For
frost coverage, it depends on what you are covering - if its a crown
of a sensitive plant - put it on thick but only over the crown -
thinner over the root area as it's the crown that needs protection.you
dont' need the cover to be too thick

was it a hassle?

:-)) Depends on how you value the plant.

when i have an asparagus bed ( the
plants are only a few weeks old, and very tiny and cute ;-) i was
under the
impression you do this, but cut the plants down first & then just
spread the
straw over the top for the winter.

Asparagus is as tough as old boots. The mulch is really more about
feeding and building up height so that you are cutting long new stems.
I've changed my mind 3 or 4 times about the location of the asparagus
bed and each time I leave some crowns behind but they keep coming up
in all sorts of impoassible places. I have one which is still coming
up where I now have my clothes line and the soil there is as dry and
like concrete as it's possible for soil to be. That spot for a bed
must have been at least 10?? years ago. I was only saying yesterday
that it and the other rogue plants I need to be moved to where the
next asparagus bed is going to go.

frost question
 

"gardenlen" wrote in message
i don;t use straw as such it is way too dear and harder to get
around
here so i use what is readily available and economical and that is
sugar cane mulch and pasture grass hay.

you could use dense foliaged branches from other trees as a cove
also
anything to create that air barrier.

Slashed wattle branches are good too and the pruing does the wattle
good.

frost question
 

"0tterbot" writes:
i'm not at all scared of snakes (although i probably should be) but one fun
activity to do with my dh is to loudly say "snake!" while we're walking
through the bush. my, it makes him leap. i have to watch what i say now,
otherwise he's in a permanent state of nervous exhaustion just thinking
about it. it would be sad if it weren't so funny :-)
kylie who clearly needs a total attitude readjustment.

Memo to Kylie's husband: a rubber spider pushed into the toe of a fluffy
slipper can make a good snake jibe repellent . . . . g
--
John Savage (my news address is not valid for email)

frost question
 

A rubber snake would be better, as its unlikely there would be two snakes in
the same place at the same time....
But make sure its not the opposite (dare I say it) sex

"John Savage" wrote in message
om...
"0tterbot" writes:
i'm not at all scared of snakes (although i probably should be) but one
fun
activity to do with my dh is to loudly say "snake!" while we're walking
through the bush. my, it makes him leap. i have to watch what i say now,
otherwise he's in a permanent state of nervous exhaustion just thinking
about it. it would be sad if it weren't so funny :-)
kylie who clearly needs a total attitude readjustment.

Memo to Kylie's husband: a rubber spider pushed into the toe of a fluffy
slipper can make a good snake jibe repellent . . . . g
--
John Savage (my news address is not valid for email)

frost question
 

"John Savage" wrote in message
om...
"0tterbot" writes:
i'm not at all scared of snakes (although i probably should be) but one
fun
activity to do with my dh is to loudly say "snake!" while we're walking
through the bush. my, it makes him leap. i have to watch what i say now,
otherwise he's in a permanent state of nervous exhaustion just thinking
about it. it would be sad if it weren't so funny :-)
kylie who clearly needs a total attitude readjustment.

Memo to Kylie's husband: a rubber spider pushed into the toe of a fluffy
slipper can make a good snake jibe repellent . . . . g

what about a fluffy spider in a rubber slipper? (if i actually had rubber
slippers that would do the job on me completely.)

i might be cool with snakes, but i'm pretty uncool with spiders on me g
kylie