"gardenlen" wrote in message
...
sorry chookie,

with all these problems with bigsespool and the usenet presently, your
post (which i got from the google link) hasn't shown here and any
replies i do in google don't work as google states they don't have
that function, i did send you a p.m but not sure if it got there?

your dual flush has proibaly like you say stopped waste from a leaking
older cistern?

but even so if they are truely using 3 litres? (does anyone know for
sure?) then using that much high qulaity drinking water to flush waste
water isn't realy sustainable?

we don't use any water to flush urine, it only gets flushed when
solids are flushed, and mine gets saved into a bucket to water the
lucky citrus trees with.

not sure about solar but gravity feed is usually slower than normal
tap pressure, so would suggest special (doubtful results) low
pressure shower heads would be necessary.

not realy a supporter of rebates as all it encourages realy is people
doing things that get the rebate, not doing them because the see the
needs and the benefits to the whole system. ultimately we see lots of
minimum sized tanks (minimum to fit the rebate criteria) in yards, a
waste of tax payer derived funds, sojme up here can even make a
profit, good for them doesn't do much for the system overall.


Does it matter? The end result is the same.

you don't need a tank installer as such, if you ring one of your rural
tank makers they will come and site the tank (install it where you
want it) at the time of delivery, you just need to amke sure they ahve
access.

as for fitting downpipes and even a pump that is all DIY stuff no
rocket science in it at all, i don't even glue the fitting together
for downpipes as they push together very tight, makes for ease of
altering later on if need be.

i've been chatting with people from down south who are running
evaporatives and they tell me the usage figures again: 30 litres for
cooling purposes and 20 literes for flushing purposes = 50 litres per
hour of operation. almost a criminal waste of drinking water because
of poorly designed homes.

You've mentioned house de4sign before, how would a change of design help in
an area where the weather is constantly changing. We have droughts and
floods and very hot weather and very cold weather all in the same month.
There was snow inVictoria this summer.

most of those same people who are abhored at us running with coal
fired power stations will then run a fire or fuel burning heating
device through the long winter causing their own local pollution.

and to keep focused on that coal issue china currently has some 300 of
them and old technology at that, these stations belch out masses of
dense coal smoke (our stations are more modern than that), yet they
intend to double that amount of stations to 600 odd, so they can buy
the coal we won't be using. all while we are using safer more
expensive nuclear power which is what they want all the fresh water
for.

but we have to develop cleaner burning cola to sell them no doubt at a
pitance. when per-capita statements are used they are used to make
things look worse than waht they are, bet not much of the puiblic in
chine have ready access to power??

ower and water issues go jand in glove.


If you wrote at the end of what Chookie wrote, it would be much easier to
follow what you're answering to.

sorry about that but this message was not showing through the bigpond
server so i dragged it from the google interface.

yes i get that a lot "how can home design help?" it can help a lot and
a whole heap more than not designing can. just for a very lot of
people thinking outside the square and outside the comfort zone blocks
lateral thinking on the subject matter.

so i colder areas you design and build a home that needs minimum
heating because that is the major part of the season so then adding
some cooling isn't as bad and design can also minimise the cooling
needed.

suppose life is a whole lot easier in stable climates.

On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 01:36:14 GMT, "Jen"
wrote:

snipped
With peace and brightest of blessings,

len

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.lensgarden.com.au/

"gardenlen" wrote in message
...
sorry about that but this message was not showing through the bigpond
server so i dragged it from the google interface.

yes i get that a lot "how can home design help?" it can help a lot and
a whole heap more than not designing can. just for a very lot of
people thinking outside the square and outside the comfort zone blocks
lateral thinking on the subject matter.

so i colder areas you design and build a home that needs minimum
heating because that is the major part of the season so then adding
some cooling isn't as bad and design can also minimise the cooling
needed.

But summer is generally 'very' hot, with the occasional snow, flooding and
many very cold days. And winter is generally 'very' cold with snow etc, but
occasionally has warm days. I can understand building houses to suit hot
climates, or very cold climates, but Australia has both. What about central
Australia, they have super hot days, but super cold nights.

Jen

g'day jen,

i'll hark back to the need to thinbk ourside the square, it would be
all too easy if climates were stat' but we have hot and cold and
everything in between etc.,.

but a properly thought out design can take the edge of both extremes,
to the degeree that if you build to get the absolute best in one
extreme because that is the one you get more of then the other extreme
will be more manageable.

in the desert like copper pedi take the example.

in every climate if you build undergraound then the home would have
stable all year round temperatures.

i still say the designs that we are indoctrinated with are not working
anywhere in australia, they may fare better for folk who by accident
bought one on the right aspect, and it is aspects which give us our
micro climates so that is what we are about with our eco' home design
we had.

didn't matter if it was 38 outside in the sun or -10 on the ground on
a winters morning we were comfortable without wasting extra resources.
but then we ahd more stable climate conditions ie.,. no extremes form
either end of the scale.

even this macmansion that we have in the 'burbs now only needs some
passive cooling and a few strategicaly planted plants, we need no
heating in the winter because the home is orientated not too badly on
the block. and the aspect of the block isn't as bad as most.

we had a home similar situation near the bay and we needed fans in all
rooms all summer and heating in the winter, the results of the wrong
aspect and no consideration by the builder to orientation of the home
on the block, though it wouldn't have helped much as the aspect was
hopeless as is the aspect of roughly 70% of all homes.


On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 06:20:38 GMT, "Jen"
wrote:


"gardenlen" wrote in message
.. .
snipped


With peace and brightest of blessings,

len

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.lensgarden.com.au/

"Jen" wrote in message
...

"gardenlen" wrote in message
...
sorry about that but this message was not showing through the bigpond
server so i dragged it from the google interface.

yes i get that a lot "how can home design help?" it can help a lot and
a whole heap more than not designing can. just for a very lot of
people thinking outside the square and outside the comfort zone blocks
lateral thinking on the subject matter.

so i colder areas you design and build a home that needs minimum
heating because that is the major part of the season so then adding
some cooling isn't as bad and design can also minimise the cooling
needed.

But summer is generally 'very' hot, with the occasional snow, flooding and
many very cold days. And winter is generally 'very' cold with snow etc,
but occasionally has warm days. I can understand building houses to suit
hot climates, or very cold climates, but Australia has both. What about
central Australia, they have super hot days, but super cold nights.

Jen



Oh, well ,if we do bugger the planet up completely and have to move to Mars,
central Aussies will be right at home....

"meeee" wrote in message
...

"Jen" wrote in message
...

"gardenlen" wrote in message
...
sorry about that but this message was not showing through the bigpond
server so i dragged it from the google interface.

yes i get that a lot "how can home design help?" it can help a lot and
a whole heap more than not designing can. just for a very lot of
people thinking outside the square and outside the comfort zone blocks
lateral thinking on the subject matter.

so i colder areas you design and build a home that needs minimum
heating because that is the major part of the season so then adding
some cooling isn't as bad and design can also minimise the cooling
needed.

But summer is generally 'very' hot, with the occasional snow, flooding
and many very cold days. And winter is generally 'very' cold with snow
etc, but occasionally has warm days. I can understand building houses to
suit hot climates, or very cold climates, but Australia has both. What
about central Australia, they have super hot days, but super cold nights.

Jen



Oh, well ,if we do bugger the planet up completely and have to move to
Mars, central Aussies will be right at home....

LOL

Jen wrote:
"meeee" wrote in message
...

"Jen" wrote in message
...

"gardenlen" wrote in message
...

sorry about that but this message was not showing through the bigpond
server so i dragged it from the google interface.

yes i get that a lot "how can home design help?" it can help a lot and
a whole heap more than not designing can. just for a very lot of
people thinking outside the square and outside the comfort zone blocks
lateral thinking on the subject matter.

so i colder areas you design and build a home that needs minimum
heating because that is the major part of the season so then adding
some cooling isn't as bad and design can also minimise the cooling
needed.

But summer is generally 'very' hot, with the occasional snow, flooding
and many very cold days. And winter is generally 'very' cold with snow
etc, but occasionally has warm days. I can understand building houses to
suit hot climates, or very cold climates, but Australia has both. What
about central Australia, they have super hot days, but super cold nights.

Jen



Oh, well ,if we do bugger the planet up completely and have to move to
Mars, central Aussies will be right at home....


LOL


Hey we dont know if previous civilisations already buggered Mars do we?
Maybe were all martians. You bug eyed monster you.....

On Jan 28, 3:20 pm, "Jen" wrote:
What about central
Australia, they have super hot days, but super cold nights.

This is actually ideal from a building design perspective. What you
have is a wave cycle, with temperature peaking during the day and
bottoming out at night. Careful use of insulation in combination with
thermal mass and placement of windows will allow you to smooth
out the cycle, so that you end up with a fluctuation of a few degrees
above or below the average temperature.

It is much harder in areas where the temperature is consistently
outside the comfort zone. If the outside temperature is never
comfortable (overnight temp is too hot, or daytime temp is too
cold) then no amount of passive solar design will make the house
comfortable. You need to spend energy to bring the interior into
your comfort zone.

There are some designs which use massive thermal mass to
average temperatures over the entire year, but this is much
harder to do and can actually work against you if you get it
wrong.

In article ,
"Jen" wrote:

You've mentioned house de4sign before, how would a change of design help in
an area where the weather is constantly changing. We have droughts and
floods and very hot weather and very cold weather all in the same month.
There was snow inVictoria this summer.

Have a look at Warm House, Cool House by Nick Hollo. Most permaculture books
cover general principles as well.

First thing is that you design for CLIMATE, not WEATHER. That is, you design
for what typically happens in your area, not for the rare times when it snows
in summer (assuming that it is indeed rare where you live!). So in a
Mediterranean climate (cool wet winters, warm dry summers) you design
differently from say tropical (cool dry winters, hot wet summers). Sydney is
in-between. Our wetter seasons are summer and winter. Summer tends to be
humid, and spring and autumn are dryish but have very comfortable temps.

Secondly, a house that is sensibly designed should cope with unusual extremes
reasonably well anyway. If it doesn't, well, you save on your energy bill the
rest of the year!

Traditional housing often gives clues as to sensible ways to build houses. In
arid regions (hot in the day and down to freezing at night), you find the use
of materials with high thermal mass, like stone and adobe. They absorb heat
during the day but radiate it out (and in) in the evenings, so the house is
warm at night and cool by day. Compare that with the airy, shady structures
you find in tropical areas.

Lastly, there are a few commonalities across most of Australia. Most of us
don't need late afternoon sun beating into the house in summer, so we need to
minimise west-facing windows and shade them with awnings or trees. In winter,
we like the sun coming in, so we need windows that face north. In summer,
however, we don't want that direct sun, so the windows should be shaded with
wide eaves. As the sun is lower in winter, the eaves can (and should) be
designed so they don't shade winter sun. And most of us need roof and wall
insulation to keep heat in in winter and out in summer.

Just a few thoughts to kick around. Of course, if you are retrofitting a
house, the current house's good and bad points come into play. For example,
my house has all its big windows facing south, which is nice during a summer
southerly. It's a pretty cool house in winter, however, so we are about to
add a family room on the north, which will have windows to pick up the winter
sun and a concrete floor to store the heat in.

See what I mean?

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

"gardenlen" wrote in message
...
g'day jen,

i'll hark back to the need to thinbk ourside the square, it would be
all too easy if climates were stat' but we have hot and cold and
everything in between etc.,.

but a properly thought out design can take the edge of both extremes,
to the degeree that if you build to get the absolute best in one
extreme because that is the one you get more of then the other extreme
will be more manageable.

in the desert like copper pedi take the example.

in every climate if you build undergraound then the home would have
stable all year round temperatures.

we have to consider that people have been living in places like arid deserts
and extremely northern locations for millenia & they didn't have
airconditioning or heated toilet seats :-)

i still say the designs that we are indoctrinated with are not working
anywhere in australia, they may fare better for folk who by accident
bought one on the right aspect, and it is aspects which give us our
micro climates so that is what we are about with our eco' home design
we had.

didn't matter if it was 38 outside in the sun or -10 on the ground on
a winters morning we were comfortable without wasting extra resources.
but then we ahd more stable climate conditions ie.,. no extremes form
either end of the scale.

what was your house like?

even this macmansion that we have in the 'burbs now only needs some
passive cooling and a few strategicaly planted plants, we need no
heating in the winter because the home is orientated not too badly on
the block. and the aspect of the block isn't as bad as most.

we had a home similar situation near the bay and we needed fans in all
rooms all summer and heating in the winter, the results of the wrong
aspect and no consideration by the builder to orientation of the home
on the block, though it wouldn't have helped much as the aspect was
hopeless as is the aspect of roughly 70% of all homes.

that's right. also, i think people underestimate how much plants can help
"rescue" a crap house, as well. (a subject pertinent for this group!)

but overall, i think generally good design had better become a more common
thing in australia soon!
kylie

In article ,
"Jen" wrote:

But summer is generally 'very' hot, with the occasional snow, flooding and
many very cold days. And winter is generally 'very' cold with snow etc, but
occasionally has warm days.

You might be surprised -- the average summer temp in Sydney is only about 26
C; probably a bit hotter where I am. That's not "very" hot, though we do of
course have heatwaves. And unless you are in Antarctica, your winters are NOT
very cold. I'd be surprised if you got -10 C very often.

Contrast Moscow, where it can get to 40 C in summer and -40 C in winter!

I can understand building houses to suit hot
climates, or very cold climates, but Australia has both. What about central
Australia, they have super hot days, but super cold nights.

You design for where you live, not for a mythical average across our enormous
country!

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

"Chookie" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Jen" wrote:

But summer is generally 'very' hot, with the occasional snow, flooding
and
many very cold days. And winter is generally 'very' cold with snow etc,
but
occasionally has warm days.

You might be surprised -- the average summer temp in Sydney is only about
26
C; probably a bit hotter where I am. That's not "very" hot, though we do
of
course have heatwaves. And unless you are in Antarctica, your winters are
NOT
very cold. I'd be surprised if you got -10 C very often.

Contrast Moscow, where it can get to 40 C in summer and -40 C in winter!

I can understand building houses to suit hot
climates, or very cold climates, but Australia has both. What about
central
Australia, they have super hot days, but super cold nights.

You design for where you live, not for a mythical average across our
enormous
country!


I live in Victoria. This summer we've had many above 40 days, but we've
also had snow. Where I live there's often snow in the winter 1/2 hour away,
and occasionally here. But it can still be steaming hot, or dry, or cold
and snowing even in summer. I'm not talking average across country here!

Jen

"Chookie" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Jen" wrote:

You've mentioned house de4sign before, how would a change of design help
in
an area where the weather is constantly changing. We have droughts and
floods and very hot weather and very cold weather all in the same month.
There was snow inVictoria this summer.

Have a look at Warm House, Cool House by Nick Hollo. Most permaculture
books
cover general principles as well.

First thing is that you design for CLIMATE, not WEATHER. That is, you
design
for what typically happens in your area, not for the rare times when it
snows
in summer (assuming that it is indeed rare where you live!). So in a
Mediterranean climate (cool wet winters, warm dry summers) you design
differently from say tropical (cool dry winters, hot wet summers). Sydney
is
in-between. Our wetter seasons are summer and winter. Summer tends to be
humid, and spring and autumn are dryish but have very comfortable temps.

Secondly, a house that is sensibly designed should cope with unusual
extremes
reasonably well anyway. If it doesn't, well, you save on your energy bill
the
rest of the year!

Traditional housing often gives clues as to sensible ways to build houses.
In
arid regions (hot in the day and down to freezing at night), you find the
use
of materials with high thermal mass, like stone and adobe. They absorb
heat
during the day but radiate it out (and in) in the evenings, so the house
is
warm at night and cool by day. Compare that with the airy, shady
structures
you find in tropical areas.

Lastly, there are a few commonalities across most of Australia. Most of
us
don't need late afternoon sun beating into the house in summer, so we need
to
minimise west-facing windows and shade them with awnings or trees. In
winter,
we like the sun coming in, so we need windows that face north. In summer,
however, we don't want that direct sun, so the windows should be shaded
with
wide eaves. As the sun is lower in winter, the eaves can (and should) be
designed so they don't shade winter sun. And most of us need roof and wall
insulation to keep heat in in winter and out in summer.

Just a few thoughts to kick around. Of course, if you are retrofitting a
house, the current house's good and bad points come into play. For
example,
my house has all its big windows facing south, which is nice during a
summer
southerly. It's a pretty cool house in winter, however, so we are about
to
add a family room on the north, which will have windows to pick up the
winter
sun and a concrete floor to store the heat in.

See what I mean?


Yeah. I do. I'll keep that in mind if I'm ever in the position to design,
or redesign my house. Thanks


Jen

On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 10:33:20 GMT, "0tterbot" wrote:

"gardenlen" wrote in message
.. .
snipped

we have to consider that people have been living in places like arid deserts
and extremely northern locations for millenia & they didn't have
airconditioning or heated toilet seats :-)

yes that is wha i hae said before we need to mimck wha other long
standing communitites hae done in their adverse climates, and for the
main without using power or wasting water.

snipped

what was your house like?

it was a whole lot more comfy than this house and i hazzard at saying
a whole lot more comfy that the vast majority of homes in aus' well
except for those souls living in copper pedi hey?

the design is adaptable for if not all most of wha aus' has to offer,
the basic structure is steel, so there is the termite protection and
fire resistancy.

all you need do is be more selective of aspect and use differnt
claddings as i hae noted in the essay.

just to give an example:

one winters morning up there at 8am and wearing things shorts and a
track suit top i walked 300 meters to a neighbours qlder brick
bungalow the preceder of the qlder macmansion now the sun had only
been up for an hour, we already had 12c degrees inside, quiet comfy
with a few warm clothes on (the grandkids where there as well and they
weren't complaining).

anyway we go there to buy eggs he opened the door and commented on me
not having any feeling as i was dressed for a summer strole or
something, they rugged up like eskimos and with a heater going, i
asked hime waht his tempo was he tapped the thermo' and said 0c. now
his home gets the sun a good 20 minutes before ours, says a lot hey?

he was on an easten aspect so realy should ahve been warmer than us,
they got lots hotter as well in summer, and naturally with these
modern low ceilings lots more muggy. with the aid of totaly
ineffective sliding windows.

believe me this model works, i looked at all those industry and big
nted peoples designes that are little more than the accepted norm'
adaptions.

snipped

that's right. also, i think people underestimate how much plants can help
"rescue" a crap house, as well. (a subject pertinent for this group!)

but overall, i think generally good design had better become a more common
thing in australia soon!

yes planting in the right place using the right plant for a purpose,
unfortunately like the yuk factor brigade and the water issues
indoctrination has got too much of a hold, someone commented that
retro fitting is better than rebuilding i dunno lots of variable
there????

if the house is so badly aspecteed along with the land and so poorly
designed with living cooking areas facing the wrong way maybe any
money spent on retro fitting could be seen as a bad investment, like
utting new tuyres on a car wher the body and motor are falling apart
hey??

until people ahve lived in a purpose built home they will never know
the difference, and anoteh thing for young families wanting to get a
start, this home is very affordable this one at that stage cost
$50,000 to build but at a maximum would ahve pulled up well under
$70,000 that then would have been 22 meters long and 7 meters wide. at
the size it is in the pic's it 15 meters long which is as i have said
the size of a modest family 3 bedroom home of the 70's and 80's
standard.

there are lots of families up there living in those prefabs that are
only 6m X 12m 3 bedroom, funny thing our home cost about the same as
them only lots more comfortable.

so if the community bites the bullet and demands change what then? do
we start stipulating estates with only the right aspect lans being
used and only homes that are of the 'warm-house/cool-house' ilk?

so what of all the old inefficient homes?

natural progressinon would mean it could take oh i dunno 100 years for
the change to take effect on our resource useage?

maybe instead of wasting tax payer dollars feeding us potty water and
keeping insolvent farmers afloat and paying for water tanks that
simply won't make any difference.

maybe we bit the bullet and and demolish these monoliths?

kylie


With peace and brightest of blessings,

len

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.lensgarden.com.au/

snipped
Oh, well ,if we do bugger the planet up completely and have to move to Mars,
central Aussies will be right at home....

this planet called earth is as good as it is ever going to get for us
humans, we are here for the long haul.
With peace and brightest of blessings,

len

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.lensgarden.com.au/