"0tterbot" wrote in message
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
I really can't understand your antipathy to permaculture Otter, much of
it works well - in fact ost of the ideas that I've tried have.

i'm a pest, aren't i :-(

To each his own. But if you were in my garden, I might feel compelled to
compost you or kill you by pouring boiling water onto your crown :-))

much of my bias stems from badly-written books & the fact that the permies
who used to live here managed to do so many incomprehensible and
badly-thought-out things which i now must undo on my own time.

Well that is enough to make one totally anti I guess.

i am aware that my bias is purely a bias.

Well, perhaps th easiest idea to take from the permie mob is to look at
edges and see how that can benefit you. I hadn't appreciated the lush
growth of edges till I read something about it in a permie doco of some
sort, now I use it all the time.

in fact, my newest digger's catalogue mentions wossisname yeomans.
perhaps their day is coming!!!!!

Perhaps it's just that the regular gardening world is finally beginning
to discover the wider world of agriculture????

i actually think that the mass-soil-improvement idea is one whose time has
come!! so good on cranky clive for mentioning it and spreading the word.
it would go both ways though - agriculturalists could learn a great deal
from good gardeners (not me, obviously ;-)

I think the best of both worlds have been taking from each other for
millenia, the worst of both worlds don't take anything from anywhere
unfortunately.

She's actually very charming. Pity it doesn't come through in 10 second
grabs.

i am clearly insensible to whatever charm she has to offer, so i am more
than happy to agree to disagree :-)

Well if you do ever get a chance to meet her, take it, as you might be in
for a pleasant surprise (but leave your bias at home :-)).

"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
...

Well, perhaps th easiest idea to take from the permie mob is to look at
edges and see how that can benefit you. I hadn't appreciated the lush
growth of edges till I read something about it in a permie doco of some
sort, now I use it all the time.

edges?

i'm happy to snaffle their ideas - i just would want to do it _properly_
instead of going "oh permie me, la la la" and make a big mess for someone
else to be mystified by ;-)

i am clearly insensible to whatever charm she has to offer, so i am more
than happy to agree to disagree :-)

Well if you do ever get a chance to meet her, take it, as you might be in
for a pleasant surprise (but leave your bias at home :-)).

i shall wear my best hat.
kylie

In article ,
"0tterbot" wrote:

"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
...

Well, perhaps th easiest idea to take from the permie mob is to look at
edges and see how that can benefit you. I hadn't appreciated the lush
growth of edges till I read something about it in a permie doco of some
sort, now I use it all the time.

edges?

Yep -- the edge or border between two different ecosystems is a combination of
the two ecosystems and therefore has a higher number of species, producing
higher yields and with better pest regulation.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

In article ,
"0tterbot" wrote:

"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
...

Well, perhaps th easiest idea to take from the permie mob is to look at
edges and see how that can benefit you. I hadn't appreciated the lush
growth of edges till I read something about it in a permie doco of some
sort, now I use it all the time.

edges?

i'm happy to snaffle their ideas - i just would want to do it _properly_
instead of going "oh permie me, la la la" and make a big mess for someone
else to be mystified by ;-)

What have you found mystifying?

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

"Chookie" wrote in message "0tterbot"
wrote:
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message

Well, perhaps th easiest idea to take from the permie mob is to look at
edges and see how that can benefit you. I hadn't appreciated the lush
growth of edges till I read something about it in a permie doco of some
sort, now I use it all the time.

edges?

Yep -- the edge or border between two different ecosystems is a
combination of
the two ecosystems and therefore has a higher number of species, producing
higher yields and with better pest regulation.

Sorry Otterbot, missed this earlier but Chookie has encapsulated it well.
That is indeed what edges are about.

"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
...
"Chookie" wrote in message "0tterbot"
wrote:
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message

Well, perhaps th easiest idea to take from the permie mob is to look
at
edges and see how that can benefit you. I hadn't appreciated the lush
growth of edges till I read something about it in a permie doco of
some
sort, now I use it all the time.

edges?

Yep -- the edge or border between two different ecosystems is a
combination of
the two ecosystems and therefore has a higher number of species,
producing
higher yields and with better pest regulation.

Sorry Otterbot, missed this earlier but Chookie has encapsulated it well.
That is indeed what edges are about.

thank you.
and in what ways do you use it at your place?
kylie

"Chookie" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"0tterbot" wrote:

"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
...

Well, perhaps th easiest idea to take from the permie mob is to look at
edges and see how that can benefit you. I hadn't appreciated the lush
growth of edges till I read something about it in a permie doco of some
sort, now I use it all the time.

edges?

i'm happy to snaffle their ideas - i just would want to do it _properly_
instead of going "oh permie me, la la la" and make a big mess for someone
else to be mystified by ;-)

What have you found mystifying?

innumerable things they have done!
it's nonsensical.
kylie

"0tterbot" wrote in message
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
"Chookie" wrote in message
"0tterbot" wrote:
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message

Well, perhaps th easiest idea to take from the permie mob is to look
at
edges and see how that can benefit you. I hadn't appreciated the
lush
growth of edges till I read something about it in a permie doco of
some
sort, now I use it all the time.

edges?

Yep -- the edge or border between two different ecosystems is a
combination of
the two ecosystems and therefore has a higher number of species,
producing
higher yields and with better pest regulation.

Sorry Otterbot, missed this earlier but Chookie has encapsulated it well.
That is indeed what edges are about.

thank you.
and in what ways do you use it at your place?

Sorry but haven't been in here for a while - life got in the way. I use it
mostly around the edges of tree/shrub areas to grow things like veg -
especially strawbs and other things like parsley and smaller stuff that I
want to grow quickly and get a return on. I also use it in the decorative
garden in a similar situation. I'll bet you are already using it but
haven't taken note that you are doing so.

"0tterbot" wrote in message
...
"Chookie" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"0tterbot" wrote:

"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
...

Well, perhaps th easiest idea to take from the permie mob is to look
at
edges and see how that can benefit you. I hadn't appreciated the lush
growth of edges till I read something about it in a permie doco of
some
sort, now I use it all the time.

edges?

i'm happy to snaffle their ideas - i just would want to do it _properly_
instead of going "oh permie me, la la la" and make a big mess for
someone
else to be mystified by ;-)

What have you found mystifying?

innumerable things they have done!
it's nonsensical.

It isn't, but we aren"t going to convince you of that. I'll bet if Chookie
and I came to your place to do am inspection, we'd find lots of permie ideas
which you said were your own idea and not gained from any permie doco, they
just made sense to you and that's why you did them.

"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
...

Sorry but haven't been in here for a while - life got in the way. I use
it mostly around the edges of tree/shrub areas to grow things like veg -
especially strawbs and other things like parsley and smaller stuff that I
want to grow quickly and get a return on. I also use it in the decorative
garden in a similar situation. I'll bet you are already using it but
haven't taken note that you are doing so.

maybe - i'm not sure despite thinking hard about it. isn't everything an
"edge" to somewhere :-)
kylie

"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
...

What have you found mystifying?

innumerable things they have done!
it's nonsensical.

It isn't, but we aren"t going to convince you of that.

it IS! (the previous residents ["permie me, la la la"] , that is, not
necessarily permaculture as a whole). for e.g. they wrote in their farm
report how they located the chooks in the orchard (excellent, no problem
there) but didn't explain why they put the run in a far-off corner equally
distant from two taps but close to neither. (nor why they planted
raspberries & an apple tree IN there with the chickens where the chooks
destroy them, etc). or why they planted all the trees so close (i know some
people are into close planting & that's fine cos i am too, but a hazlenut &
a fig literally a metre apart? i think not!!) i could go on & on. everything
from paths to fences to trees and everything in between has been put in
places i cannot fathom. there's a row of jonquils 100m long in a straight
line. we have had to cut down so many trees in the yard (due to being
located either dangerously, ridiculously, or unable to grow) that it's
disturbing to us. they installed leaky hose in the orchard at great expense
but for nothing, as relatively little (it appears) survived the 2.5-odd
years between them & us when the place was a weekender (& hence mostly
neglected) even though the drought here was not so bad & there's no real
reason things should have died like that had they been well-placed
originally. i would note that the raspberries in teh chook run survived
(until i got more chooks, that is) yet their blueberries etc put in at
(again) great expense & with a great deal of "planning" (cough) didn't. many
fruit trees just didn't. for all the work they did (which was apparently
considerable - soil testing & surveys over the entire property, etc etc)
they haven't left anything anyone would want - it didn't last. only the
misplaced infrastructure has!!

now this is fine, but it behooves a person who's achieved nothing of much
use not to brag about how permie they are when all they've done is made a
mess.

but i reserve most of my rage for the tool who built the house. if i ever
find HIM he's getting a punch in the nose ;-)

and as a final word on the ninnies who've been living chez-moi in the past,
i offer the following: our entire property is on a slope, which is
particularly steep on the west side of the house. nobody in the 20-30 years
of the house's existence has ever, ever thought to put in a trench to stop
water flooding the house every time it rains. as a consequence, the house
flooded literally every time it rained (we found out later). dh spent all of
a couple of hours digging two shallow trenches around the western side &
we've not had a drop come into the house, but we still have termite damage
from the termites that came to eat the rotting wood because nobody in the
past that lived here had enough functioning brain cells to just dig a
****ing trench!!!!!!!!!!!!
/end rant, rests case

I'll bet if Chookie
and I came to your place to do am inspection, we'd find lots of permie
ideas which you said were your own idea and not gained from any permie
doco, they just made sense to you and that's why you did them.

i'd say in a year or two when i've relocated everything you'll be quite
impressed (i hope ;-) but i daresay atm you'd be scratching your head as
hard as i do on a regular basis.

i have read a new book - "back from the brink" by peter andrews. i was very
impressed! have you read it?
kylie

In article ,
"0tterbot" wrote:

it IS! (the previous residents ["permie me, la la la"] , that is, not
necessarily permaculture as a whole). for e.g. they wrote in their farm
report how they located the chooks in the orchard (excellent, no problem
there) but didn't explain why they put the run in a far-off corner equally
distant from two taps but close to neither. (nor why they planted
raspberries & an apple tree IN there with the chickens where the chooks
destroy them, etc). or why they planted all the trees so close (i know some
people are into close planting & that's fine cos i am too, but a hazlenut &
a fig literally a metre apart? i think not!!) i could go on & on. everything
from paths to fences to trees and everything in between has been put in
places i cannot fathom. there's a row of jonquils 100m long in a straight
line. we have had to cut down so many trees in the yard (due to being
located either dangerously, ridiculously, or unable to grow) that it's
disturbing to us. they installed leaky hose in the orchard at great expense
but for nothing, as relatively little (it appears) survived the 2.5-odd
years between them & us when the place was a weekender (& hence mostly
neglected) even though the drought here was not so bad & there's no real
reason things should have died like that had they been well-placed
originally. i would note that the raspberries in teh chook run survived
(until i got more chooks, that is) yet their blueberries etc put in at
(again) great expense & with a great deal of "planning" (cough) didn't. many
fruit trees just didn't. for all the work they did (which was apparently
considerable - soil testing & surveys over the entire property, etc etc)
they haven't left anything anyone would want - it didn't last. only the
misplaced infrastructure has!!

OK, I'd say not permies, just idiots. I would guess they had never kept
chooks before and didn't know they needed care at least once a day (eggs,
food, water) -- this is usually mentioned specifically in the pc books I have
read. Therefore, you want the chooks close, but not too close, to the house
(and water tap and feed bins).

Close planting of (productive) trees is the cardinal sign of the novice. Note
that in some cases people plant wattles and similar as "nursemaids" (dappled
shade for slower-growing productive trees, and if these were left to grow
instead of being removed once the saplings were bigger, you'd end up with a
jungle. The years of neglect might account for part of what you are seeing.
Could the fig or hazel be self-sown, for example?

The 100m of jonquils might have been an earlier planting -- it certainly
doesn't sound like something a permie would do. What was the history of the
property? Was there a house on it 100 years ago?

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

"0tterbot" wrote in message
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
Sorry but haven't been in here for a while - life got in the way. I use
it mostly around the edges of tree/shrub areas to grow things like veg -
especially strawbs and other things like parsley and smaller stuff that I
want to grow quickly and get a return on. I also use it in the
decorative garden in a similar situation. I'll bet you are already using
it but haven't taken note that you are doing so.

maybe - i'm not sure despite thinking hard about it. isn't everything an
"edge" to somewhere :-)

:-))))))) Yes and no. I guess that aveg bed in the middle of a lawn would
be an edge of the lawn, but that isn't quite what's meant by "edges" -it's
more where different ecosystem type edges meet.

"Chookie" wrote in message "0tterbot"
wrote:

it IS! (the previous residents ["permie me, la la la"] , that is, not
necessarily permaculture as a whole). for e.g. they wrote in their farm
report how they located the chooks in the orchard (excellent, no problem
there) but didn't explain why they put the run in a far-off corner
equally
distant from two taps but close to neither. (nor why they planted
raspberries & an apple tree IN there with the chickens where the chooks
destroy them, etc). or why they planted all the trees so close (i know
some
people are into close planting & that's fine cos i am too, but a hazlenut
&
a fig literally a metre apart? i think not!!) i could go on & on.
everything
from paths to fences to trees and everything in between has been put in
places i cannot fathom. there's a row of jonquils 100m long in a straight
line. we have had to cut down so many trees in the yard (due to being
located either dangerously, ridiculously, or unable to grow) that it's
disturbing to us. they installed leaky hose in the orchard at great
expense
but for nothing, as relatively little (it appears) survived the 2.5-odd
years between them & us when the place was a weekender (& hence mostly
neglected) even though the drought here was not so bad & there's no real
reason things should have died like that had they been well-placed
originally. i would note that the raspberries in teh chook run survived
(until i got more chooks, that is) yet their blueberries etc put in at
(again) great expense & with a great deal of "planning" (cough) didn't.
many
fruit trees just didn't. for all the work they did (which was apparently
considerable - soil testing & surveys over the entire property, etc etc)
they haven't left anything anyone would want - it didn't last. only the
misplaced infrastructure has!!

OK, I'd say not permies, just idiots.

Yep. It sounds like idiots to me to. Just because they called themselves
(or saw themselves) as being permies, doesn't mean that they were or that
they even understood the principles. I don't call myself a permie but I do
use some of their principles to my advantage. I have to take account of the
tastes and interests of another resident in garden design and I also
inherited a garden which would need significant redesign to be a permie
garden. I live with what I have and who I do and just use some ideas as and
when I can.

Your lot sound like total dills and inexperienced and unthinking ones at
that.

I would guess they had never kept
chooks before and didn't know they needed care at least once a day (eggs,
food, water) -- this is usually mentioned specifically in the pc books I
have
read. Therefore, you want the chooks close, but not too close, to the
house
(and water tap and feed bins).

Close planting of (productive) trees is the cardinal sign of the novice.

And not just productive trees either. BUT, I do know someone who plants
very, very close together and she has a wonderful garden and they use the
cull as firewood.

Note
that in some cases people plant wattles and similar as "nursemaids"
(dappled
shade for slower-growing productive trees, and if these were left to grow
instead of being removed once the saplings were bigger, you'd end up with
a
jungle. The years of neglect might account for part of what you are
seeing.
Could the fig or hazel be self-sown, for example?

The 100m of jonquils might have been an earlier planting -- it certainly
doesn't sound like something a permie would do. What was the history of
the property? Was there a house on it 100 years ago?

And I can't for the life of me remember one incidence of permie planting of
Jonquils. It does make sense however to plant in rows if they intended to
plant for the cut flower trade and if they were the dills like they ousn
like, they may have planted one row, lost enthusiasm and then never planted
more. Think of how many "vineyards" one sees when driving the countryside
that are obviously asd and sorry experiments. I can show you one in my
front paddock (I TOLD him not to plant it there, but what would I knoe, I'm
just the one who has had the lifelong interest in growing things and am not
a male so obviously I don't know best).

"0tterbot" wrote in message
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message

What have you found mystifying?

innumerable things they have done!
it's nonsensical.

It isn't, but we aren"t going to convince you of that.

it IS! (the previous residents ["permie me, la la la"] , that is, not
necessarily permaculture as a whole). for e.g. they wrote in their farm
report how they located the chooks in the orchard (excellent, no problem
there) but didn't explain why they put the run in a far-off corner equally
distant from two taps but close to neither. (nor why they planted
raspberries & an apple tree IN there with the chickens where the chooks
destroy them, etc). or why they planted all the trees so close (i know
some people are into close planting & that's fine cos i am too, but a
hazlenut & a fig literally a metre apart? i think not!!) i could go on &
on. everything from paths to fences to trees and everything in between has
been put in places i cannot fathom. there's a row of jonquils 100m long in
a straight line. we have had to cut down so many trees in the yard (due to
being located either dangerously, ridiculously, or unable to grow) that
it's disturbing to us. they installed leaky hose in the orchard at great
expense but for nothing, as relatively little (it appears) survived the
2.5-odd years between them & us when the place was a weekender (& hence
mostly neglected) even though the drought here was not so bad & there's no
real reason things should have died like that had they been well-placed
originally. i would note that the raspberries in teh chook run survived
(until i got more chooks, that is) yet their blueberries etc put in at
(again) great expense & with a great deal of "planning" (cough) didn't.
many fruit trees just didn't. for all the work they did (which was
apparently considerable - soil testing & surveys over the entire property,
etc etc) they haven't left anything anyone would want - it didn't last.
only the misplaced infrastructure has!!

now this is fine, but it behooves a person who's achieved nothing of much
use not to brag about how permie they are when all they've done is made a
mess.

Yep. But talk is cheap. Perhaps you have heard of the expression "all hat,
no farm"?

I make bobbin lace and managed to find some lace making books in a second
hand shop. I showed my teacher and she wondered who had sold them (this
being a very small world of lace makers). We scratched the white out off
where the name was hidden and found out who the previous owner had been. My
teacher harrumphed mightily and told me how this woman's (non lacing making)
friends all said what a wonderful lacemaker she was but when questioned it
turned out that no-one had ever seen anything she'd produced or could recall
ever actually seeing her at her pillows making lace. But she certainly had
spent a fortune on imported pillows and wonderful books.

Some people are just full of shit.

but i reserve most of my rage for the tool who built the house. if i ever
find HIM he's getting a punch in the nose ;-)

and as a final word on the ninnies who've been living chez-moi in the
past, i offer the following: our entire property is on a slope, which is
particularly steep on the west side of the house. nobody in the 20-30
years of the house's existence has ever, ever thought to put in a trench
to stop water flooding the house every time it rains. as a consequence,
the house flooded literally every time it rained (we found out later). dh
spent all of a couple of hours digging two shallow trenches around the
western side & we've not had a drop come into the house, but we still have
termite damage from the termites that came to eat the rotting wood because
nobody in the past that lived here had enough functioning brain cells to
just dig a ****ing trench!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well they do sound like a lot of idiots. Anyone who has ever been camping
knows that about siting a tent!

/end rant, rests case

:-)) But you didn't even make a case! Presumably they SAID that they were
permaculturals but that doens't meant ehy were. I could say that I am a
brain surgeon but it doesn't make me one.

The proof is always in the pudding.

I'll bet if Chookie
and I came to your place to do am inspection, we'd find lots of permie
ideas which you said were your own idea and not gained from any permie
doco, they just made sense to you and that's why you did them.

i'd say in a year or two when i've relocated everything you'll be quite
impressed (i hope ;-) but i daresay atm you'd be scratching your head as
hard as i do on a regular basis.

Probably.

To me, permaculture design has always just been common sense. I once lent
my big permie design manual to a friend who has been a farmer for about 60
years and when I got it back, I asked him what he thought. His response was
"Not much, it's all just common sense". And I'd have to agree with him on
most of that. He is in such a habit of observing what is going on around
his farm, that to him it IS all common sense but a lot of people (and
especially non country people) aren't like that, they have to told and shown
and know what they are seeing and then ask why. It's a lot harder if you
don't grow up on the land.

i have read a new book - "back from the brink" by peter andrews. i was
very impressed! have you read it?

No but I'd like to. It's on my list of "to buys" but I can't buy anything
more till I get rid of some of the stuff I already have stuffed in this over
stuffed house.

What were you impressed by?