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FlowerGirl[_2_] 22-03-2007 04:03 AM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 
Note: X-posted to aus.family and aus.gardens.

.... so our C&K centre has to sign a doc saying that there are no poisonous
plants on the premises .. and as a botanist (with a very different area of
specialty) they've turned to me for guidance.

Well.
From what I understand, we just have to sign off that there are no poisonous
plants on the place....the problem is that there doesn't seem to be an
official list of plants that we can sign off against, ..... and pretty much
any plant could kill you if you eat the wrong bit, don't prepare it properly
or you just eat enough of it.

I can tell them to sign off against what's on the Qld Health list of
poisonous plants and fungi (well nearly - there's cestrum growing through
the back fence from the neighbours yard and its a right bugger to get rid
of ), but what about the variegated croton and the Rhoeo which can cause
mild reactions. ....or even the green tomatoes which can contain a poisonous
substance (saponins)? Not sure about the Strelitzias by the front door
either..... Where does one draw the line?

Part of me thinks that its a matter of teaching kids not to eat stuff they
find in the garden (without asking first - like my kids do) but then I worry
about the kids that just don't get that concept (Bear in mind that the C&K
kids are aged between 3.5 y and up to 5.5 y).
(I also remember tutoring a poisonous plants class at uni and having a 19 yo
student pretend to eat a castor oil seed right after I emphasized that all
the plants were poisonous so to wear gloves, not touch their faces and to
wash their hands well and often. ... so I guess there's no accounting for
some.)

Hmmmm
Amanda



len garden 22-03-2007 04:40 AM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 
g'day amanda,

sometimes i wonder how we made it as kids hey??

guess the safest way is to replace living plants with fake plastic
ones, almost no worries then, i say almost because as i said a long
time ago somewhere "it doesn't matter how fool proof you make it -
there is always a fool out there how can circumvent any system", the
only way to make anything fool proof is to remove the fool.

so fake plants still look the safest bet, once you sign off on
something you may be where the litigation buck stops.



On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 04:03:42 GMT, "FlowerGirl"
wrote:

snipped
With peace and brightest of blessings,

len & bev

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.lensgarden.com.au/

Chookie 22-03-2007 05:25 AM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 
In article ,
"FlowerGirl" wrote:

Note: X-posted to aus.family and aus.gardens.

... so our C&K centre has to sign a doc saying that there are no poisonous
plants on the premises .. and as a botanist (with a very different area of
specialty) they've turned to me for guidance.

Well.
From what I understand, we just have to sign off that there are no poisonous
plants on the place....the problem is that there doesn't seem to be an
official list of plants that we can sign off against, ..... and pretty much
any plant could kill you if you eat the wrong bit, don't prepare it properly
or you just eat enough of it.


snort

No list??? I'd be back to the originators of the form!

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

The Lady Gardener 22-03-2007 06:40 AM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 

"FlowerGirl" wrote in message
.... so our C&K centre has to sign a doc saying that there are no poisonous
plants on the premises .. and as a botanist (with a very different area of
specialty) they've turned to me for guidance.

From what I understand, we just have to sign off that there are no poisonous
plants on the place....the problem is that there doesn't seem to be an
official list of plants that we can sign off against, ..... and pretty much
any plant could kill you if you eat the wrong bit, don't prepare it properly
or you just eat enough of it.


I'm more of the mind to remove all warning labels from anything and
everything and let nature take its course......think of it as a 21st century
twist on survival of the fittest.

Joanne



HC 22-03-2007 07:09 AM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 
G'day Amanda

I have to agree with Len when he said...sometimes I wonder how we made
it as kids hey??

Everything (and I mean EVERYthing) seems to require some official
statement these days. What has happened to 'teaching' kids about plants,
and other 'dangerous' things? My son (now adult with his own kids) was
highly allergic to bee stings as a child and the school wouldn't allow
him to go on excursions, or play on the grass playground, because there
were trees/grass/etc there and he 'might' get stung....and die!!
Therefore he was forced to play on the concrete section of the
playground with absolutely NO shade trees and hardly any friends because
they were all down the back playing on the grass. In the end we were
sorry we had chosen to inform the school of his allergy because he was
victimised. He knew the procedure to follow if he was stung, knew where
to contact us at all times and to allow him to go on school excursions
(after the initial banning) I used to go as teacher's aide along with
the injection kit in my bag.

Besides growing seeds, one of his hobbies was keeping 'live'
spiders....at 3yo he had a Red Back, Sydney Funnel Web, White Tail
Spider and too many Huntsman's to count, all LIVE. Mind you, he didn't
have enough space to house the Huntsman's so they wandered around his
room, sometimes venturing out, but would always return where they knew
they would be handfed with fresh flies and other insects. I used to get
into strife if I used flyspray in the house, because these flies could
not be fed to his 'mates'. For his 4th birthday I tried to buy a Spider
Identification book that was in child's language.....no such creature!!
The only available book was full of language that he could not yet read.

At home, he had his own garden...from age 3 and he always played in the
yard where we had lots of trees/flowers/vegies/etc along with a
Callistemon that attracted swarming bees.....an apiarist friend used to
regularly call twice a week to collect the swarms, sometimes more often.
Now if we had been 'over' cautious I'm not sure what would have
happened. Sure, his condition was life threatening, but you can't wrap
kids in cotton wool as they usually choke on it!! BTW, we were not
neglectful parents either but didn't carry our concerns to the extreme,
which I feel happens within lots of areas these days. Don't let the
child to this, and don't let the child do that....it makes me wonder if
there will be any well adjusted adults in years to come.

Teach them the right and wrong way to handle plants and I'm sure this is
more likely to get them interested in gardening, than sitting around
with a long list of plant names that they can't identify. Start them
with a succulent/cactus garden, then progress to herbs and vegies...they
love growing what they eat for dinner.

Teaching is the best protection......imho!!
Bronwyn ;-)



len garden wrote:

g'day amanda,

sometimes i wonder how we made it as kids hey??

guess the safest way is to replace living plants with fake plastic
ones, almost no worries then, i say almost because as i said a long
time ago somewhere "it doesn't matter how fool proof you make it -
there is always a fool out there how can circumvent any system", the
only way to make anything fool proof is to remove the fool.

so fake plants still look the safest bet, once you sign off on
something you may be where the litigation buck stops.



On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 04:03:42 GMT, "FlowerGirl"
wrote:

snipped
With peace and brightest of blessings,

len & bev

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.lensgarden.com.au/


Cheryl[_2_] 22-03-2007 07:45 AM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 
On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 04:03:42 GMT, "FlowerGirl"
wrote:

Note: X-posted to aus.family and aus.gardens.

... so our C&K centre has to sign a doc saying that there are no poisonous
plants on the premises .. and as a botanist (with a very different area of
specialty) they've turned to me for guidance.

Well.
From what I understand, we just have to sign off that there are no poisonous
plants on the place....the problem is that there doesn't seem to be an
official list of plants that we can sign off against, ..... and pretty much
any plant could kill you if you eat the wrong bit, don't prepare it properly
or you just eat enough of it.

I can tell them to sign off against what's on the Qld Health list of
poisonous plants and fungi (well nearly - there's cestrum growing through
the back fence from the neighbours yard and its a right bugger to get rid
of ), but what about the variegated croton and the Rhoeo which can cause
mild reactions. ....or even the green tomatoes which can contain a poisonous
substance (saponins)? Not sure about the Strelitzias by the front door
either..... Where does one draw the line?


I guess your easiest option is to contact the Dept of Community/Family
Services (Qld equivalent) and ask them what list they are using. They
are the ones who want the document so they must have a list they want
it checked against. If they are using the Qld Health list then you
can just go with that, if they are using something obscure or "use
your own judgement" then you have a bit more trouble.

Cheryl

A & L Lane 22-03-2007 08:06 AM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 

"Cheryl" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 04:03:42 GMT, "FlowerGirl"
wrote:

Note: X-posted to aus.family and aus.gardens.

... so our C&K centre has to sign a doc saying that there are no poisonous
plants on the premises .. and as a botanist (with a very different area of
specialty) they've turned to me for guidance.

Well.
From what I understand, we just have to sign off that there are no
poisonous
plants on the place....the problem is that there doesn't seem to be an
official list of plants that we can sign off against, ..... and pretty
much
any plant could kill you if you eat the wrong bit, don't prepare it
properly
or you just eat enough of it.

I can tell them to sign off against what's on the Qld Health list of
poisonous plants and fungi (well nearly - there's cestrum growing through
the back fence from the neighbours yard and its a right bugger to get rid
of ), but what about the variegated croton and the Rhoeo which can cause
mild reactions. ....or even the green tomatoes which can contain a
poisonous
substance (saponins)? Not sure about the Strelitzias by the front door
either..... Where does one draw the line?


I guess your easiest option is to contact the Dept of Community/Family
Services (Qld equivalent) and ask them what list they are using. They
are the ones who want the document so they must have a list they want
it checked against. If they are using the Qld Health list then you
can just go with that, if they are using something obscure or "use
your own judgement" then you have a bit more trouble.

Cheryl


I had a similar question once many moons ago and ran into the same problem -
no list!! Or no list that seemed to have relevance to the situation and was
official enough to be accepted. Cheryl's advice seems sound though - if
they want the guarantee, then they must have some guidelines that you can
follow - otherwise it is impossible to read their mind and becomes a
pointless exercise.

cheers
Leah



Ally[_2_] 22-03-2007 12:42 PM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 

"FlowerGirl" wrote in message
...
Note: X-posted to aus.family and aus.gardens.

... so our C&K centre has to sign a doc saying that there are no poisonous
plants on the premises .. and as a botanist (with a very different area of
specialty) they've turned to me for guidance.

Well.
From what I understand, we just have to sign off that there are no
poisonous
plants on the place....the problem is that there doesn't seem to be an
official list of plants that we can sign off against, ..... and pretty
much
any plant could kill you if you eat the wrong bit, don't prepare it
properly
or you just eat enough of it.

I can tell them to sign off against what's on the Qld Health list of
poisonous plants and fungi (well nearly - there's cestrum growing through
the back fence from the neighbours yard and its a right bugger to get rid
of ), but what about the variegated croton and the Rhoeo which can cause
mild reactions. ....or even the green tomatoes which can contain a
poisonous
substance (saponins)? Not sure about the Strelitzias by the front door
either..... Where does one draw the line?

Part of me thinks that its a matter of teaching kids not to eat stuff they
find in the garden (without asking first - like my kids do) but then I
worry
about the kids that just don't get that concept (Bear in mind that the C&K
kids are aged between 3.5 y and up to 5.5 y).
(I also remember tutoring a poisonous plants class at uni and having a 19
yo
student pretend to eat a castor oil seed right after I emphasized that all
the plants were poisonous so to wear gloves, not touch their faces and to
wash their hands well and often. ... so I guess there's no accounting for
some.)



Order a Leaflet from
http://www.health.qld.gov.au/poisons.../pamphlets.asp
Poisonous plants leaflet (limit 1 copy)
A leaflet that lists plants that is best not grown where children may have
access to them. Suitable for the home or child care facilities. QPIC is able
to supply a single copy only of the poisonous plants brochure. The brochure
can be printed directly from this website. Larger supplies can also be
ordered from GoPrint for a small charge. Telephone GoPrint on 07 3246 3500.

You story reminds me of the audit done at my kids child care centre. All of
the trees were cut down and replaced with shadecloth because it was decided
that they may drop limbs.




len garden 22-03-2007 08:03 PM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 
yes bronwyn,

educatiuon is the best protection, guess nowadays too many parents
don't have enough common sense or knowledge themsleves to be raising a
family with?

did you see the segment on a current affair program last night where a
volunteer older man at a school was known to the kids as "poppy" and
some "do gooder" complained as they saw it could lead their child into
danger??!! just an indictment of our society at present people don't
want to take the responsibility of raising and educating their own
kids to the "rights and wrongs", just look around our communities it's
all there to be seen, disenfranchised kids causing all sorts of
problems.

we used to have all sorts of indoor plants when our kids where babies
lots of them know for their toxisity we where able to teach our kids
not to touch certain things and that is how they learnt, no need for
heavy hand, even now our 1 year old granddaughter if she goes near
anything when crawling around we tell her no so she moves on, no play
pen here to keep her contained, they don't learn that way.

maybe some parents don't credit their kids with basic inteliigence?



On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 18:09:13 +1100, HC wrote:

snipped
With peace and brightest of blessings,

len & bev

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.lensgarden.com.au/

len garden 22-03-2007 08:08 PM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 
g'day cheryl,

for me even if some department did supply a list i for one would not
be putting my name to it, as bet you when the chips are down the
department will hang you out to dry.

take very special care amanda, might be time to seek out a good
litigation lawyers advice, and get that in writting too.

On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 18:45:05 +1100, Cheryl wrote:

snipped
With peace and brightest of blessings,

len & bev

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.lensgarden.com.au/

eggs 23-03-2007 01:08 AM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 
In article ,
len garden wrote:

yes bronwyn,

educatiuon is the best protection, guess nowadays too many parents
don't have enough common sense or knowledge themsleves to be raising a
family with?


For a daycare centre you are talking about children between 0-5 years of
age. While you can educate a 3 year old not to eat the shrubbery, it's
kind of hard to do with a 1 year old who could toddle over and start
chewing on the foliage before anyone noticed. TBH, I am kind of
surprised that a check for poisonous plants isn't done as part of the
licensing assessment of a premises for child care purposes.

My kids have a variety of plants and trees (and related insects,
spiders, snails, etc) in their yard and we have never had a problem with
it, but I would certainly never purposefully plant something poisonous
in my yard. My kids might be safe, but I couldn't be sure visiting kids
would know enough to avoid dangerous plants.

eggs.

Nina Pretty Ballerina 23-03-2007 02:25 AM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 

"FlowerGirl" wrote in message
...
Note: X-posted to aus.family and aus.gardens.

... so our C&K centre has to sign a doc saying that there are no poisonous
plants on the premises .. and as a botanist (with a very different area of
specialty) they've turned to me for guidance.

Well.
From what I understand, we just have to sign off that there are no
poisonous
plants on the place....the problem is that there doesn't seem to be an
official list of plants that we can sign off against, ..... and pretty
much
any plant could kill you if you eat the wrong bit, don't prepare it
properly
or you just eat enough of it.

I can tell them to sign off against what's on the Qld Health list of
poisonous plants and fungi (well nearly - there's cestrum growing through
the back fence from the neighbours yard and its a right bugger to get rid
of ), but what about the variegated croton and the Rhoeo which can cause
mild reactions. ....or even the green tomatoes which can contain a
poisonous
substance (saponins)? Not sure about the Strelitzias by the front door
either..... Where does one draw the line?

Part of me thinks that its a matter of teaching kids not to eat stuff they
find in the garden (without asking first - like my kids do) but then I
worry
about the kids that just don't get that concept (Bear in mind that the C&K
kids are aged between 3.5 y and up to 5.5 y).
(I also remember tutoring a poisonous plants class at uni and having a 19
yo
student pretend to eat a castor oil seed right after I emphasized that all
the plants were poisonous so to wear gloves, not touch their faces and to
wash their hands well and often. ... so I guess there's no accounting for
some.)

Hmmmm
Amanda



it is all very well for people to say you should just educate your kids not
to eat dangerous plants etc etc, but i would also so that it is really not
too much to ask for a child care facility to check that they do not have any
known dangerous plants just hanging around.

sure, educate them about plants and animals as much as poss, but dont use
that as a guarantee that they wont go and eat the dangerous plants.

let people have plants around their own home to educate kids about if that
is what they want.

this whole argument bugs me, about well we did it when we were kids so it
must be safe....

did you not ever know one single kid when you were young that suffered
unnecessarily b/c of a car accident, bike accident, whatever??? did it make
us tougher? perhaps, but what about those that were badly injured or worse?

anywya, just a rant. and not directed at amanda..

chris



Chookie 23-03-2007 05:27 AM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 
In article ,
eggs wrote:

My kids have a variety of plants and trees (and related insects,
spiders, snails, etc) in their yard and we have never had a problem with
it, but I would certainly never purposefully plant something poisonous
in my yard. My kids might be safe, but I couldn't be sure visiting kids
would know enough to avoid dangerous plants.


I know for a fact that there are daffodil bulbs in my garden, and rhubarb. My
MIL kept pointing out that the Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow plant in my front
yard was poisonous until I told her that as I have no front fence, the kids
are unlikely to be out in the front yard without supervision. There are a
surprising number of plants with poisonous components.

IMHO children either put *everything* in their mouths or nothing. While I
wouldn't intentionally put an oleander hedge around the day care, one assumes
that the kids are supervised outside and that they're not likely to eat much
of anything before being spotted. Choking is probably a more likely hazard
than poisoning anyway.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

Chookie 23-03-2007 05:30 AM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 
In article , "Ally" wrote:

You story reminds me of the audit done at my kids child care centre. All of
the trees were cut down and replaced with shadecloth because it was decided
that they may drop limbs.


sigh

There are a known range of gums that do this -- Lemon-Scented Gum, for
example. But they don't do it wihtout a reason AFAIK. It's a response to
stress -- drop a limb to have more water/nutrients for the rest of the tree.
Keep the tree unstressed and it is fine.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

HC 23-03-2007 05:43 AM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 
Yes, Len I saw that program....sad isn't it? People are litigation
crazy these days and trying to make us another state of the USA! Nobody
takes responsibility for their own actions, just blame someone else. In
some cases the kids who have more intelligence than the parents.

Your DGD is the same age as my youngest one...great aren't they?
;-)

len garden wrote:
yes bronwyn,

educatiuon is the best protection, guess nowadays too many parents
don't have enough common sense or knowledge themsleves to be raising a
family with?

did you see the segment on a current affair program last night where a
volunteer older man at a school was known to the kids as "poppy" and
some "do gooder" complained as they saw it could lead their child into
danger??!! just an indictment of our society at present people don't
want to take the responsibility of raising and educating their own
kids to the "rights and wrongs", just look around our communities it's
all there to be seen, disenfranchised kids causing all sorts of
problems.

we used to have all sorts of indoor plants when our kids where babies
lots of them know for their toxisity we where able to teach our kids
not to touch certain things and that is how they learnt, no need for
heavy hand, even now our 1 year old granddaughter if she goes near
anything when crawling around we tell her no so she moves on, no play
pen here to keep her contained, they don't learn that way.

maybe some parents don't credit their kids with basic inteliigence?



On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 18:09:13 +1100, HC wrote:

snipped
With peace and brightest of blessings,

len & bev

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.lensgarden.com.au/


eggs 23-03-2007 10:25 AM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 
In article ,
Chookie wrote:

In article , "Ally" wrote:

You story reminds me of the audit done at my kids child care centre. All of
the trees were cut down and replaced with shadecloth because it was decided
that they may drop limbs.


sigh

There are a known range of gums that do this -- Lemon-Scented Gum, for
example. But they don't do it wihtout a reason AFAIK. It's a response to
stress -- drop a limb to have more water/nutrients for the rest of the tree.
Keep the tree unstressed and it is fine.


We had a bigish lemon scented gum in our backyard when we moved in 4
years ago. As the drought has progressed, it's branches started dying
off and I started chopping them off before they fell on the kids. Now
it only has a couple of branches and it looks really stupid in the
middle of the yard with a big trunk and not much else. I was just about
ready to chop it down when it started raining again and now those couple
of branches are all leafy again. I might chop it down anyway and plant
something more suitable as I'm pretty sure this is only a break in the
drought, not the end of it. Any suggestions for a nice shade tree for
the courtyard (space is about 6m X 6m where the current tree stands)?
I'd prefer something with a non-invasive root system as there is a city
sewer pipe down there under the yard.

eggs.

Chookie 23-03-2007 12:07 PM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 
In article ,
eggs wrote:

I might chop it down anyway and plant
something more suitable as I'm pretty sure this is only a break in the
drought, not the end of it. Any suggestions for a nice shade tree for
the courtyard (space is about 6m X 6m where the current tree stands)?
I'd prefer something with a non-invasive root system as there is a city
sewer pipe down there under the yard.


There's no such thing as a non-invasive root system. What you need are the
new sewer pipes, not the old terracotta ones. In general, no trees should be
planted within 5m of a sewer line.

You'd probably need to work out if you only want summer shade or if you'd
prefer light cover all year round. Which way does it face?

Possibilities:
Deciduous
Crepe myrtle
Mulberry
FLowering prunus (or even a multigrafted stone-fruit tree)
Silk tree (Albizia julibrissin)
Quince (the fruiting kind, not the flowering quince)
Frangipani

Evergreen
Bull banksia
Australian frangipani (Hymenosporum flavum)
Willow myrtle (Agonis flexuosa, but it may have had a recent name change)
NSW CHristmas bush
Melaleuca linariifolia
Tree wisteria
Bauhinia
Olive
A wattle would grow fast if you want shade in the next few years.


YOu could also consider putting up a pergola and growing a creeper -- no
problems with roots then. Passionfruit for all-year shade, Chinese star
jasmine for light shade, a grape vine if you want something deciduous.

HTH,

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

Terryc 23-03-2007 02:36 PM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 
eggs wrote:

I'd prefer something with a non-invasive root system as there is a city
sewer pipe down there under the yard.


Its the water board/sydney water's problem, not yours. My gum tree (our
5 gum trees) were all there before the sewer main went through. Once in
20 years they have been out to a blockage that might have been our gums.

len garden 23-03-2007 06:28 PM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 
g'day eggs,

our granddaughter is just 12 months ans she is getting taught and
learning, only takes a couple of times of "no! don't touch" same
worked with our daughters we started their training if you like as
soon as they where mobile.


On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 12:08:26 +1100, eggs
wrote:
snipped
With peace and brightest of blessings,

len & bev

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.lensgarden.com.au/

len garden 23-03-2007 06:33 PM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 
g'day hc,

yes the doogooders of society take no responsibility they just sue the
pants off someone or something, all because they can't take their
parental role properly.

yes she is a little darling the light of our life along with the other
4 grandies as well. she is learning very easily what not to touch,
they don't play pen her at home anymore either.

gotta love 'em hey?

On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 16:43:01 +1100, HC wrote:

snipped
With peace and brightest of blessings,

len & bev

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.lensgarden.com.au/

len garden 23-03-2007 06:48 PM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 
g'day chris,

educatiuon of kids pirmarily is the responsibility of parents, it is
up to the parent to ascertain any risk to their child before they lob
them into someone elses care, it's all about parents being
responsible.

and yes as kids we did get hurt on odd occassion someone broke a bone
we all had fun in a very much safer world then and yes our parents had
things like angels trumpets and arum lillies in the garden that was
very common and no! once we were told not to touch the plant or put it
near our mouths i guess none of us where dumb enough to do so as none
of us ever did.

you can't cotton wool kids in their development, and you can't rely on
litigation to do what good parenting should do.

i am seeing a lot more accidents involving kids around schools
nowadays some fatal and it appears to me that neither the schools or
the parents are teaching kids basic road safety rules. even at 40k a
vehicle can kill a pedestrian and when a kid does something wrong like
run out from behind a bus there isn't much a driver can do as most
drivers aren't blessed with those sort of reaction times.

if i was amanda i wouldn't be too keen on signing off on anything like
that nowadays it smells of scapegoating.

On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 13:25:10 +1100, "Nina Pretty Ballerina"
wrote:

snipped
With peace and brightest of blessings,

len & bev

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.lensgarden.com.au/

FlowerGirl[_2_] 24-03-2007 03:54 AM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 

"len garden" wrote in message
...
yes bronwyn,

educatiuon is the best protection, guess nowadays too many parents
don't have enough common sense or knowledge themsleves to be raising a
family with?


Hold on a minute there - plenty of parents made great errors in judgement
going back a few years too, so its not just confined to "parents of today"
..... my 65 yo Mum remembers learning about the heat of chillies the hard way
.... and on another tack, my sister in law (now 51) was about 6 when the
family visited a neighbouring farm and the little girls made a tea party
.....and I think it was tordon that they used for the "tea".

Education is great, but C&Ks are inclusive kindys and there a several
children with added difficulties like autism and Downs syndrome where
education might not sink in as well as it does with other kids (or sink in
too well so they won't eat anything from the garden).

I guess the point is that you can't just rely on education alone when you
are legally responsible for 22 kids between 2 adults so making the play
environment as safe as possible is the best option.
Amanda





FlowerGirl[_2_] 24-03-2007 03:57 AM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 

"len garden" wrote in message
...
g'day eggs,

our granddaughter is just 12 months ans she is getting taught and
learning, only takes a couple of times of "no! don't touch" same
worked with our daughters we started their training if you like as
soon as they where mobile.

Thats great Len - but multiply her by 20, add some learning difficulties and
behavioural problems to some of those kids and go play with them in a patch
of oleander!
;)
Amanda




FlowerGirl[_2_] 24-03-2007 04:01 AM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 

"Chookie" wrote in message
...

From what I understand, we just have to sign off that there are no

poisonous
plants on the place....the problem is that there doesn't seem to be an
official list of plants that we can sign off against, ..... and pretty

much
any plant could kill you if you eat the wrong bit, don't prepare it

properly
or you just eat enough of it.


snort

No list??? I'd be back to the originators of the form!


I fear that is some lawyer :(
The poisons information centre can't even tell you what the guidelines
should be.
A



FlowerGirl[_2_] 24-03-2007 04:04 AM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 

"len garden" wrote in message

take very special care amanda, might be time to seek out a good
litigation lawyers advice, and get that in writting too.


Thanks Len ... but its not my signature on the form ;)
I'm just doing an unofficial walk through and noting anything suspect (the
cestrum poking through the back fence is really the only thing I'm
particularly concerned about).

A



FlowerGirl[_2_] 24-03-2007 04:15 AM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 

"len garden" wrote in message
...
g'day chris,

educatiuon of kids pirmarily is the responsibility of parents, it is
up to the parent to ascertain any risk to their child before they lob
them into someone elses care, it's all about parents being
responsible.

and yes as kids we did get hurt on odd occassion someone broke a bone
we all had fun in a very much safer world then and yes our parents had
things like angels trumpets and arum lillies in the garden that was
very common and no! once we were told not to touch the plant or put it
near our mouths i guess none of us where dumb enough to do so as none
of us ever did.


With all due respect Len, its a very different world today than when you
were small or when your own kids were small.
Just think of the reidiculous insurance claims for a start.
AND I do know of kids from my Dad's era who died from plant poisoning
(castor bean no less), so its not really a generational thing.

you can't cotton wool kids in their development, and you can't rely on
litigation to do what good parenting should do.


I see you point Len, but bare in mind, people take a lot of offence if their
parenting skills are questioned.
Childcare was probably not a major option in your young day - its a necesary
thing in today's world and a parent has a right to expect that the
environment is safe if they are paying for a person to caer for their child
in that environment.

i am seeing a lot more accidents involving kids around schools
nowadays some fatal and it appears to me that neither the schools or
the parents are teaching kids basic road safety rules. even at 40k a
vehicle can kill a pedestrian and when a kid does something wrong like
run out from behind a bus there isn't much a driver can do as most
drivers aren't blessed with those sort of reaction times.


Again Len - not wanting to have a go at you, but do you perhaps think that
a) there are considerably more cars on the road now than back in the olden
days? and b) that kids still did stupid things back then but it might not
have made the evening news. From what I know from my parents and
grandparents era, it wasn't uncommon to have had a sibling die from an
accident of some sort .... or an illness that hadn't been described.

if i was amanda i wouldn't be too keen on signing off on anything like
that nowadays it smells of scapegoating.


Sorry - its the kindy that has to sign off, and I'm not officially offering
an expert opinion so I'm not signing.

Its interesting to get this "generational" discussion though.

Amanda



FlowerGirl[_2_] 24-03-2007 04:17 AM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 

"Cheryl" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 04:03:42 GMT, "FlowerGirl"
wrote:

Note: X-posted to aus.family and aus.gardens.

... so our C&K centre has to sign a doc saying that there are no

poisonous
plants on the premises .. and as a botanist (with a very different area

of
specialty) they've turned to me for guidance.

Well.
From what I understand, we just have to sign off that there are no

poisonous
plants on the place....the problem is that there doesn't seem to be an
official list of plants that we can sign off against, ..... and pretty

much
any plant could kill you if you eat the wrong bit, don't prepare it

properly
or you just eat enough of it.

I can tell them to sign off against what's on the Qld Health list of
poisonous plants and fungi (well nearly - there's cestrum growing through
the back fence from the neighbours yard and its a right bugger to get rid
of ), but what about the variegated croton and the Rhoeo which can cause
mild reactions. ....or even the green tomatoes which can contain a

poisonous
substance (saponins)? Not sure about the Strelitzias by the front door
either..... Where does one draw the line?


I guess your easiest option is to contact the Dept of Community/Family
Services (Qld equivalent) and ask them what list they are using. They
are the ones who want the document so they must have a list they want
it checked against. If they are using the Qld Health list then you
can just go with that, if they are using something obscure or "use
your own judgement" then you have a bit more trouble.


Thanks Cheryl - that's probably the department I should contact for the
"legal" list.

The kids planted sweet peas this week and they aren't on the Qld health list
so hopefully that means its all systems go for some sweet smelling flowers
in a little while.

Amanda



FlowerGirl[_2_] 24-03-2007 04:24 AM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 

"Ally" wrote in message
...




Order a Leaflet from
http://www.health.qld.gov.au/poisons.../pamphlets.asp
Poisonous plants leaflet (limit 1 copy)



Thanks Alley - all the plants are listed on that website (with common names,
latin names and pictures) and I do have an older copy of that leaflet. The
problem is that we don't officially know if this is the list we have to
check against (its OK and only lists things which really shouldn't be
planted ... like *&^% duranta)

A leaflet that lists plants that is best not grown where children may have
access to them. Suitable for the home or child care facilities. QPIC is

able
to supply a single copy only of the poisonous plants brochure. The

brochure
can be printed directly from this website. Larger supplies can also be
ordered from GoPrint for a small charge. Telephone GoPrint on 07 3246

3500.

You story reminds me of the audit done at my kids child care centre. All

of
the trees were cut down and replaced with shadecloth because it was

decided
that they may drop limbs.


This is where it gets a bit sad IMHO.

Some trees do drop limbs with alarming indiscrimination (like the
aforementioned lemon-scented gums where the tree may not look stressed at
all and still drop a limb). But others are perfectly OK.
Perhaps a niche market for a couple with the joint skills of law and
arboriculture to do inspections for childcare centres (although I'm almost
certain that the legal insurance costs would be prohibitive).
Amanda



eggs 24-03-2007 05:02 AM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 
In article ,
len garden wrote:

g'day eggs,

our granddaughter is just 12 months ans she is getting taught and
learning, only takes a couple of times of "no! don't touch" same
worked with our daughters we started their training if you like as
soon as they where mobile.



My child raising practices are pretty much the same as yours - but
adopting the position of "it's the parent's responsibility to teach
them" means that the child ends up being punished for their parent's
behavior (i.e. it's the kid not the parent who gets poisoned because the
parent didn't teach the kid not to eat plants). That seems grossly
unfair to me, especially as it could result in the death of a child.

eggs.

eggs 24-03-2007 05:06 AM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 
In article ,
Chookie wrote:

In article ,
eggs wrote:

I might chop it down anyway and plant
something more suitable as I'm pretty sure this is only a break in the
drought, not the end of it. Any suggestions for a nice shade tree for
the courtyard (space is about 6m X 6m where the current tree stands)?
I'd prefer something with a non-invasive root system as there is a city
sewer pipe down there under the yard.


There's no such thing as a non-invasive root system. What you need are the
new sewer pipes, not the old terracotta ones. In general, no trees should be
planted within 5m of a sewer line.

You'd probably need to work out if you only want summer shade or if you'd
prefer light cover all year round. Which way does it face?

Possibilities:
Deciduous
Crepe myrtle
Mulberry
FLowering prunus (or even a multigrafted stone-fruit tree)
Silk tree (Albizia julibrissin)
Quince (the fruiting kind, not the flowering quince)
Frangipani


Thanks! We only want shade in the summer as we have a high wall at the
back that shades us for much of the day in the winter, so one of these
sounds good. I think I like the idea of a fruiting plant and I love
Mulberries (hadn't even thought of that!). Off to google mulberry trees
....

eggs.

Narelle 24-03-2007 05:26 AM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 
eggs wrote:
In article ,

I think I like the idea of a fruiting plant and I love
Mulberries (hadn't even thought of that!). Off to google mulberry trees
...

eggs.


And you'll get to be the local silk worm food supplier

FlowerGirl[_2_] 24-03-2007 05:36 AM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 

"HC" wrote in message
...
G'day Amanda

I have to agree with Len when he said...sometimes I wonder how we made
it as kids hey??


Sorry Bronwyn - this touches a nerve with me as its the argument my father
uses when asking *why* my kids have to be strapped in to car seats when
"when you were little we just put you on a cushion so what's wrong with
that??"
Kids did die from accidents and poisonings in the "olden days" too you know
:(


Everything (and I mean EVERYthing) seems to require some official
statement these days. What has happened to 'teaching' kids about plants,


Ummm - well as I said *we do* teach our kids about plants.
BUT what about the child who doesn't fit the rules and who isn't so easy to
teach?
What about K's autistic classmate who sometimes can't discern the difference
between the plastic wrapping and his sandwich? .. (and yes, the teacher are
onto him straight away, but there are 22 kids for them to monitor at once).
I'd really hate it if he decided the black berries on the cestrum poking
through the back fence looked particularly delectable while the teacher and
the aide were dealing with any of the other 21 kids (who are not above
wetting their duds, scraping their knee, hitting each other etc).


snip

Teach them the right and wrong way to handle plants and I'm sure this is
more likely to get them interested in gardening, than sitting around
with a long list of plant names that they can't identify.


Sorry - I'm not suggesting that the kids sit around with long lists of
plants.... and they *are* growing things like beans and sweat peas and
strawberries.
BUT - in order to sign the official document stating that there are no
poisonois plants on the place, *I* need that long list of plants so that I
know what the centre needs to ensure *isn't* on the premises. Things like
not surrounding the centre with an oleander hedge and soforth....

I also think you forget just how much information a 3 yo kid can remember /
take in. For exaple, they do have taste tests on the tomatoes,
strawberries and beans that they grow (both at kindy and at home) .... but
personally, I wouldn't like to be responsible for a kid that got confused
and sampled the cestrum as well.

They aren't all perfect (nor are their parents ... or grandparents for that
matter) and sometimes 3 yo kids don't do exactly what they are told to do
.... I know I didn't ... and I actually pity the 3yo that *always* does as
they are told (what a serious lack of imagination;).

My own kids are pretty good about what grows in the garden - they sample
things they know they are allowed to eat, and don't tend to eat the other
stuff.
But I personally wouldn't like to be responsible for somebody else's kid in
a a garden with poisonous plants everywhere. ...

Amanda




FlowerGirl[_2_] 24-03-2007 05:42 AM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 

"eggs" wrote in message
...
In article ,

Thanks! We only want shade in the summer as we have a high wall at the
back that shades us for much of the day in the winter, so one of these
sounds good. I think I like the idea of a fruiting plant and I love
Mulberries (hadn't even thought of that!). Off to google mulberry trees


Well - if you deign to drop in here next time your in Qld, I can give you
some cuttings of *the* best mulberry tree in Queensland (well actually it'll
be a cutting off a plant grown from a cutting off a plant grown from a
cutting of *the* best mulberry tree in Qld ... which was a cutting from a
bloody good mulberry tree in Footscray, Vic).

Amanda



FlowerGirl[_2_] 24-03-2007 05:46 AM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 

"Chookie" wrote in message
...
In article ,
eggs wrote:

My kids have a variety of plants and trees (and related insects,
spiders, snails, etc) in their yard and we have never had a problem with
it, but I would certainly never purposefully plant something poisonous
in my yard. My kids might be safe, but I couldn't be sure visiting kids
would know enough to avoid dangerous plants.


I know for a fact that there are daffodil bulbs in my garden, and rhubarb.

My
MIL kept pointing out that the Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow plant in my

front
yard was poisonous until I told her that as I have no front fence, the

kids
are unlikely to be out in the front yard without supervision.


Same here - there's not a particularly large number of plants that could do
much more than give you a belly ache in our garden, but my kids know about
the plants in our garden ...and other *little* kids don't tend to visit
without their mothers.

There are a
surprising number of plants with poisonous components.


and there's the problem for the C&K. Techincally the sweet peas and the
cherry tomatoes could cause problems.

IMHO children either put *everything* in their mouths or nothing. While I
wouldn't intentionally put an oleander hedge around the day care, one

assumes
that the kids are supervised outside and that they're not likely to eat

much
of anything before being spotted. Choking is probably a more likely

hazard
than poisoning anyway.


True - so I'm hoping its just the particularly nasty plants that they have
to remove (and fair enough I say) ... maybe I can add murraya to the list on
the sly so they get rid of that &^*% stuff as well ;)

BUT - I don't have to tell you about what happens when a legal form to
certify there's no poisonous plants gets involved in the equation.

Amanda



eggs 24-03-2007 06:27 AM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 
In article ,
"FlowerGirl" wrote:

"eggs" wrote in message
...
In article ,

Thanks! We only want shade in the summer as we have a high wall at the
back that shades us for much of the day in the winter, so one of these
sounds good. I think I like the idea of a fruiting plant and I love
Mulberries (hadn't even thought of that!). Off to google mulberry trees


Well - if you deign to drop in here next time your in Qld, I can give you
some cuttings of *the* best mulberry tree in Queensland (well actually it'll
be a cutting off a plant grown from a cutting off a plant grown from a
cutting of *the* best mulberry tree in Qld ... which was a cutting from a
bloody good mulberry tree in Footscray, Vic).

Amanda


How far north of the border are you?

eggs.

Nina Pretty Ballerina 24-03-2007 07:51 AM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 

"len garden" wrote in message
...
g'day chris,

educatiuon of kids pirmarily is the responsibility of parents, it is
up to the parent to ascertain any risk to their child before they lob
them into someone elses care, it's all about parents being
responsible.


g'day len..

i think if an organisation is going to hang their shingle out and charge
their fee to look after kids, then it is fair enough to expect that the
organisation is going to abide by the rules re any dangerous items.

different matter if you are at a park, or in a florist or something.

and yes, amanda is in a difficult position. i dont envy her!

chris



Jack[_7_] 24-03-2007 11:59 AM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 
Ms Leebee wrote:
FlowerGirl wrote:
"HC" wrote in message
...
G'day Amanda

I have to agree with Len when he said...sometimes I wonder how we
made it as kids hey??

Sorry Bronwyn - this touches a nerve with me as its the argument my
father uses when asking *why* my kids have to be strapped in to car
seats when "when you were little we just put you on a cushion so
what's wrong with that??"
Kids did die from accidents and poisonings in the "olden days" too
you know :(

Everything (and I mean EVERYthing) seems to require some official
statement these days. What has happened to 'teaching' kids about
plants,

Ummm - well as I said *we do* teach our kids about plants.
BUT what about the child who doesn't fit the rules and who isn't so
easy to teach?
What about K's autistic classmate who sometimes can't discern the
difference between the plastic wrapping and his sandwich? .. (and
yes, the teacher are onto him straight away, but there are 22 kids
for them to monitor at once). I'd really hate it if he decided the
black berries on the cestrum poking through the back fence looked
particularly delectable while the teacher and the aide were dealing
with any of the other 21 kids (who are not above wetting their duds,
scraping their knee, hitting each other etc).


snip

Teach them the right and wrong way to handle plants and I'm sure
this is more likely to get them interested in gardening, than
sitting around with a long list of plant names that they can't
identify.

Sorry - I'm not suggesting that the kids sit around with long lists of
plants.... and they *are* growing things like beans and sweat peas and
strawberries.
BUT - in order to sign the official document stating that there are no
poisonois plants on the place, *I* need that long list of plants so
that I know what the centre needs to ensure *isn't* on the premises.
Things like not surrounding the centre with an oleander hedge and
soforth....

I also think you forget just how much information a 3 yo kid can
remember / take in. For exaple, they do have taste tests on the
tomatoes, strawberries and beans that they grow (both at kindy and at
home) .... but personally, I wouldn't like to be responsible for a
kid that got confused and sampled the cestrum as well.

They aren't all perfect (nor are their parents ... or grandparents
for that matter) and sometimes 3 yo kids don't do exactly what they
are told to do ... I know I didn't ... and I actually pity the 3yo
that *always* does as they are told (what a serious lack of
imagination;).

My own kids are pretty good about what grows in the garden - they
sample things they know they are allowed to eat, and don't tend to
eat the other stuff.
But I personally wouldn't like to be responsible for somebody else's
kid in a a garden with poisonous plants everywhere. ...

Amanda


Good post, Amanda.

OK allready, but who's gonna protect us from those kids that
eat ANYTHING. Those goats!


Chookie 24-03-2007 12:49 PM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 
In article ,
eggs wrote:

Thanks! We only want shade in the summer as we have a high wall at the
back that shades us for much of the day in the winter, so one of these
sounds good. I think I like the idea of a fruiting plant and I love
Mulberries (hadn't even thought of that!). Off to google mulberry trees


Er, you do have somewhere else to hang your washing, I hope?

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

len garden 24-03-2007 07:26 PM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 
g'day amanda,

i understand that but if you have oleander there i would strongly
recommend to remove it, but having said that as far as i am aware
there are no recorded severe illnesses or death from someone consuming
oleander sap that is the toxic bit.

maybe some of the plants of concern could be fenced so the kids can't
get to them?

On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 03:57:26 GMT, "FlowerGirl"
wrote:

snipped
With peace and brightest of blessings,

len & bev

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.lensgarden.com.au/

len garden 24-03-2007 07:33 PM

X-post: Poisonous plants and childcare
 
yes i understand that eggs,

but you still can't make it the total respoinsibility of the rest of
society to pick up where bad parents leave off, need to get back to
the root cause or we are always going to have problems.

that is why we end up with adolescents who have no respect for
themselves their parents and even less for the society around them,
the end result a 79 year old man doing his morning walk gets punched
by 4 boys for no reason.

so i stick with what i say if a child suffers then the parents should
be bought to task not the people that the parents leave their child
with.

the longer we cover up bad parenting then i guess the longer problems
will go on, an do gooders don't see the later problems they cause in
society so we need better values.

On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 16:02:40 +1100, eggs
wrote:

snipped
With peace and brightest of blessings,

len & bev

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.lensgarden.com.au/


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