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Old 06-01-2008, 09:18 AM posted to aus.gardens
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Default Aquaducts - irrigating Australia

Has there been a serious study done to see the feasibility of channeling
water from our far north to some of the drier parts of our continent? I'm
thinking of a massive pipe and aquaduct system.

It does seem sad that some parts of our land suffer from too much water -
whilst other parts suffer from its lack.

I'm not thinking that such a mammoth scheme could be achieved in 10 or even
100 years- but what's the alternative? Desalination plants don't seem to be
that effective.

It would require cooperation from Federal, State and local - but if
achieved- it would be a boon for future generations.



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Old 06-01-2008, 12:46 PM posted to aus.gardens
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Default Aquaducts - irrigating Australia

I agree, dollar for dollar desalination plants seem to be subject to
government abuse and back-door deals with corporations and politicians.
Pipelines should be able to go both ways. I think someone in the fifties
did a technical feasibility study. They seem to become white elephants
during times of plenty...Creating a terrible waste of taxpayers funds.



Blackadder XXIV wrote:
Has there been a serious study done to see the feasibility of channeling
water from our far north to some of the drier parts of our continent? I'm
thinking of a massive pipe and aquaduct system.

It does seem sad that some parts of our land suffer from too much water -
whilst other parts suffer from its lack.

I'm not thinking that such a mammoth scheme could be achieved in 10 or even
100 years- but what's the alternative? Desalination plants don't seem to be
that effective.

It would require cooperation from Federal, State and local - but if
achieved- it would be a boon for future generations.


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Old 06-01-2008, 02:06 PM posted to aus.gardens
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Default Aquaducts - irrigating Australia


"Blackadder XXIV" wrote in message
u...
Has there been a serious study done to see the feasibility of channeling
water from our far north to some of the drier parts of our continent? I'm
thinking of a massive pipe and aquaduct system.

It does seem sad that some parts of our land suffer from too much water -
whilst other parts suffer from its lack.

I'm not thinking that such a mammoth scheme could be achieved in 10 or
even 100 years- but what's the alternative? Desalination plants don't seem
to be that effective.

It would require cooperation from Federal, State and local - but if
achieved- it would be a boon for future generations.



P A Yeomans wrote several books (Water for every farm, Keyline Plan and City
Farm) on using water that is diverted from run off. As most of the rivers in
the north flood then are dry a week later it is a waste of a water resource
as it heads out to sea.

Farmers could utilise trapping water on their farms and having several water
storages. Then they could irrigate when needed. This is providing they are
on loam based soil with adequate slope.

Unfortunately now I think the government has decided to charge for dams and
storage of water. Citing that they are stopping flows to the rivers.
Unfortunately this has good points and bad. By not having dam storage the
water runs off into the rivers. By having storages you reduce the runoff but
once the dams are full run off proceeds as nature intended. So we need to
look at the long term benefits not a governments term in office.

Agriculture is a big user of water. So reducing it's impact by requiring
farmers to have adequate storages on their land is a better option. This of
course is providing they have the right conditions to do so.


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Old 06-01-2008, 10:34 PM posted to aus.gardens
SG1 SG1 is offline
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Default Aquaducts - irrigating Australia


"Loosecanon" wrote in message
...

"Blackadder XXIV" wrote in message
u...
Has there been a serious study done to see the feasibility of channeling
water from our far north to some of the drier parts of our continent? I'm
thinking of a massive pipe and aquaduct system.

It does seem sad that some parts of our land suffer from too much water -
whilst other parts suffer from its lack.

I'm not thinking that such a mammoth scheme could be achieved in 10 or
even 100 years- but what's the alternative? Desalination plants don't
seem to be that effective.

It would require cooperation from Federal, State and local - but if
achieved- it would be a boon for future generations.



P A Yeomans wrote several books (Water for every farm, Keyline Plan and
City Farm) on using water that is diverted from run off. As most of the
rivers in the north flood then are dry a week later it is a waste of a
water resource as it heads out to sea.

Farmers could utilise trapping water on their farms and having several
water storages. Then they could irrigate when needed. This is providing
they are on loam based soil with adequate slope.

Unfortunately now I think the government has decided to charge for dams
and storage of water. Citing that they are stopping flows to the rivers.
Unfortunately this has good points and bad. By not having dam storage the
water runs off into the rivers. By having storages you reduce the runoff
but once the dams are full run off proceeds as nature intended. So we need
to look at the long term benefits not a governments term in office.

Agriculture is a big user of water. So reducing it's impact by requiring
farmers to have adequate storages on their land is a better option. This
of course is providing they have the right conditions to do so.


Saw a flood warning for the Balonne river yesterday so maybe "Cubby" will
get a bit of inflow and manage it's first cotton crop in 3 or 5 years. No I
am not stirring but it is damn wet out here. Where I live (not far from
Dirrin) we have an average annual rainfall of 500mm. Last year we had 590
odd, 300 in Nov/Dec, previous year 300mm for the year. This year 53mm so far
in 7 days.
Can't do any gardening because everything is waterlogged, waded through 2
inches of water to read the rain gauge this morning.
Well at least the cockies are smiling, not the wives though.

P.S. Bradfield scheme, about the 20/30s I believe proposed the diversion of
coastal water to the inland.


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Old 07-01-2008, 01:59 AM posted to aus.gardens
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Default Aquaducts - irrigating Australia


"Blackadder XXIV" wrote in message
u...
Has there been a serious study done to see the feasibility of channeling
water from our far north to some of the drier parts of our continent? I'm
thinking of a massive pipe and aquaduct system.


Yes several over the last 150 years. The Dept of Water Resources (or some
similar name, they change these things from time to time) published a book
primarily for farmers a couple of years ago about the national water
situation. This was in the context of the changes to legislation re water
sharing plans etc. It makes very interesting reading. It includes a summary
of the most notable of such schemes and concludes that while they sound good
initially, when you do the cost-benefit analysis very long pipelines or canals
are not worth it. If anybody is keen to know about this I will try and find
my copy and give you the reference.

It does seem sad that some parts of our land suffer from too much water -
whilst other parts suffer from its lack.

I'm not thinking that such a mammoth scheme could be achieved in 10 or even
100 years- but what's the alternative? Desalination plants don't seem to be
that effective.


Indeed. Desal is very expensive to run, more so in the context of the
greenhouse gases produced, unless you can run it using renewables.


It would require cooperation from Federal, State and local - but if
achieved- it would be a boon for future generations.


Of course. Let's see how they do over the Murray Darling, which is crying out
for action, over the next few years. Don't hold your breath waiting for a
result. We have a dirth of statesmen and a plethora or politicians. While
ever politicians are only looking to get elected for the next 3 years there is
little chance of plans that require long term planning and commitment.

David




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Old 07-01-2008, 03:59 AM posted to aus.gardens
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Default Aquaducts - irrigating Australia

David Hare-Scott wrote:
"Blackadder XXIV" wrote in message
u...
Has there been a serious study done to see the feasibility of channeling
water from our far north to some of the drier parts of our continent? I'm
thinking of a massive pipe and aquaduct system.


Yes several over the last 150 years. The Dept of Water Resources


I think they changed it after getting too much mail addressed
Dept. of Watery Sauces.

Pete
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Old 07-01-2008, 04:29 AM posted to aus.gardens
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Default Aquaducts - irrigating Australia

Pete wrote:
David Hare-Scott wrote:
"Blackadder XXIV" wrote in message
u...
Has there been a serious study done to see the feasibility of channeling
water from our far north to some of the drier parts of our continent?
I'm
thinking of a massive pipe and aquaduct system.


Yes several over the last 150 years. The Dept of Water Resources


I think they changed it after getting too much mail addressed
Dept. of Watery Sauces.

Pete

How would you know, what are your sauces?
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Old 07-01-2008, 06:28 AM posted to aus.gardens
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Default Aquaducts - irrigating Australia

In article ,
"Blackadder XXIV" wrote:

Has there been a serious study done to see the feasibility of channeling
water from our far north to some of the drier parts of our continent? I'm
thinking of a massive pipe and aquaduct system.


Some twit in WA tried to get elected by telling everyone he'd dam the Fitroy
and pipe the water to Perth. Problem is that unless the pipe runs downhill
all the way (3700 km), you need to pump that water uphill -- and that's
really, really energy-intensive. A litre of water, after all, weighs a kilo.
To give you an idea, Warragamba Dam (Sydney's main dam) has an output of 2.6
million litres a day.

Sometimes we forget how darn big Australia is. History also tells us that
most of those giant engineering projects don't end well.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

http://chookiesbackyard.blogspot.com/
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Old 07-01-2008, 06:57 AM posted to aus.gardens
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Default Aquaducts - irrigating Australia

"Jonno" wrote in message
...
I agree, dollar for dollar desalination plants seem to be subject to
government abuse and back-door deals with corporations and politicians.
Pipelines should be able to go both ways. I think someone in the fifties
did a technical feasibility study. They seem to become white elephants
during times of plenty...Creating a terrible waste of taxpayers funds.


I guess the same could be said about a massive aquaduct system - eg. plenty
of corruption and graft.

Which is sad, as we could certainly do with such a water system.


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Old 07-01-2008, 07:00 AM posted to aus.gardens
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Default Aquaducts - irrigating Australia


"SG1" wrote in message
...

P.S. Bradfield scheme, about the 20/30s I believe proposed the diversion
of coastal water to the inland.


What happened to that plan? The cycle of drought and flood seems obvious. A
system of irrigation pipes and reservoirs and aquaducts may be the thing for
it. Of course, by the time, they finish it - we might well be experiencing
record rainfall. lol.




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Old 07-01-2008, 07:04 AM posted to aus.gardens
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Default Aquaducts - irrigating Australia

"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message
...

result. We have a dirth of statesmen and a plethora or politicians.
While
ever politicians are only looking to get elected for the next 3 years
there is
little chance of plans that require long term planning and commitment.

David


Indeed, what a tragedy. Perhaps the problem can be solved by the Federal,
State, and local govt giving up their powers to a Water Bureau - so that
long term planning and construction can be done - by relying on pollys who
get elected every 3 years we seem to be getting feel-good solutions that do
bugger all- like the time a whole reservoir of water got chucked down the
river and straight into the sea. Goodness knows what exactly that helped.


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Old 07-01-2008, 07:14 AM posted to aus.gardens
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Default Aquaducts - irrigating Australia

"Chookie" wrote in message
news:ehrebeniuk-
Sometimes we forget how darn big Australia is. History also tells us that
most of those giant engineering projects don't end well.


No of course we can't. We've got a relatively small population in a
continent the size of Western Europe or North America.

But this cycle of drought and flood will remain with us for generations -
and our population size is growing too. Desalination plants aren't the
answer. And I don't think water rationing will work either.

Staring at a map of Australia, you can see that we've got a system of
rivers- there should be someway we can tap into them - creating canals,
reservoirs and aquaduct systems (underground) to pipe water from areas which
flood to areas which are dry.

What's the cost? One billion dollars? Ten billions dollars? Probably more.
Will it be done in ten years time, twenty? forty years perhaps? I think its
feasibily - anything is better than seeing parts of our nation flood,
farming communities dry out, and just swatting the flies off our faces.


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Old 07-01-2008, 07:40 AM posted to aus.gardens
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Default Aquaducts - irrigating Australia

If we put in water, the desalination plants will die.
Please dont!

Blackadder XXIV wrote:
"Chookie" wrote in message
news:ehrebeniuk-
Sometimes we forget how darn big Australia is. History also tells us that
most of those giant engineering projects don't end well.


No of course we can't. We've got a relatively small population in a
continent the size of Western Europe or North America.

But this cycle of drought and flood will remain with us for generations -
and our population size is growing too. Desalination plants aren't the
answer. And I don't think water rationing will work either.

Staring at a map of Australia, you can see that we've got a system of
rivers- there should be someway we can tap into them - creating canals,
reservoirs and aquaduct systems (underground) to pipe water from areas which
flood to areas which are dry.

What's the cost? One billion dollars? Ten billions dollars? Probably more.
Will it be done in ten years time, twenty? forty years perhaps? I think its
feasibily - anything is better than seeing parts of our nation flood,
farming communities dry out, and just swatting the flies off our faces.


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Old 07-01-2008, 08:10 AM posted to aus.gardens
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Default Aquaducts - irrigating Australia


"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message
...

"Blackadder XXIV" wrote in message
u...
Has there been a serious study done to see the feasibility of channeling
water from our far north to some of the drier parts of our continent? I'm
thinking of a massive pipe and aquaduct system.


Yes several over the last 150 years. The Dept of Water Resources (or some
similar name, they change these things from time to time) published a book
primarily for farmers a couple of years ago about the national water
situation. This was in the context of the changes to legislation re water
sharing plans etc. It makes very interesting reading. It includes a
summary
of the most notable of such schemes and concludes that while they sound
good
initially, when you do the cost-benefit analysis very long pipelines or
canals
are not worth it. If anybody is keen to know about this I will try and
find
my copy and give you the reference.

It does seem sad that some parts of our land suffer from too much water -
whilst other parts suffer from its lack.

I'm not thinking that such a mammoth scheme could be achieved in 10 or
even
100 years- but what's the alternative? Desalination plants don't seem to
be
that effective.


Indeed. Desal is very expensive to run, more so in the context of the
greenhouse gases produced, unless you can run it using renewables.


It would require cooperation from Federal, State and local - but if
achieved- it would be a boon for future generations.


Of course. Let's see how they do over the Murray Darling, which is crying
out
for action, over the next few years. Don't hold your breath waiting for a
result. We have a dirth of statesmen and a plethora or politicians.
While
ever politicians are only looking to get elected for the next 3 years
there is
little chance of plans that require long term planning and commitment.

David


True, a simple solution would be to run a desalination plant in the Bight,
pipe the desal water to Lake Eyre, keeping that filled and with the sun,
accompanied with the heat, would evaporate the water, the evaporation would
have to go somewhere and that is up in the atmosphere, creating clouds and
hopefully weather which would result in water.
Another desal plant either north or on the eastern coast with the water
piped inland toward the centre.
What about another desal plant with the drinkable water run through the
Murray-Darling system?
might stop the migration of riverside farmers and irrigators away from the
area because of having to pay too much for water for too little results
because of no water.
But, as you say, any politician is only looking forward to his or her
political lifetime and the cost would put any result out of contention.
The government needs to make a decision and do something now before the cost
rises that much it would not be feasible to even contemplate it
but, having said that, for chrissake, do not have an environmental study or
a feasibility study which would cost billions and take years of wasted time.

It has been done in OZ befo

Kwinana Desalination Plant, located just south of Perth, Western Australia,
turns water from the Indian Ocean into nearly 40 million gallons of drinking
water per day. The reverse-osmosis plant is the first of its kind in
Australia and covers a few acres in an industrial park next to the ocean.
The Emu Downs Wind Farm, with 48 wind turbines north of Perth, provides
enough renewable energy to power the plant.

Even the South Australians are thinking about it :
The Point Paterson Desalination Plant is a planned municipal-scale
solar-powered desalination plant with land-based brine disposal just outside
Port Augusta, South Australia. The plant will integrate renewable energy and
desalination technologies to create environmentally-friendly electricity and
water. In particular, the project will significantly reduce the usual
greenhouse impacts associated with grid electricity demand for desalination

The Israel'is seem to have achieved it:
http://www.businessweek.com/technolo...230_495029.htm
http://www.washingtonjewishweek.com/... &TM=43851.36


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Old 07-01-2008, 08:15 AM posted to aus.gardens
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Default Aquaducts - irrigating Australia

"Blackadder XXIV" wrote in message

Staring at a map of Australia, you can see that we've got a system of
rivers- there should be someway we can tap into them - creating canals,
reservoirs and aquaduct systems (underground) to pipe water from areas
which flood to areas which are dry.

What's the cost? One billion dollars? Ten billions dollars? Probably more.
Will it be done in ten years time, twenty? forty years perhaps? I think
its feasibily - anything is better than seeing parts of our nation flood,
farming communities dry out, and just swatting the flies off our faces.


If you are looking at a topographical map, you will notice that Australia is
virtually flat and that means that most rivers are shallow and that the
rivers that have water in quantity, have it for only a relatively short
period of time and event hen it spreads out on the floodplain.

Canals have worked over relatively short distances in other countries with a
much higher population density but in our conditions they would suffer
evaporation badly. Reservoirs work best where there are steep ravines
through which a river passes and this has largely already been done where it
can be. In order for pipelines to be effective you would need permanent
access to large quantities of water to make building them effective and
where woudl that be?

Dorathea Mackellar was right. "Droughts and flooding rains" That has
always been our pattern and that is also why Aus has the topographical
profile it does now. We live in a truly ancient continent and I strongly
suspect that peak oil and the lack of progress on solar energy means we will
not be faced with any solutions in the short term (by which I mean anything
up to 50 years from now).




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